Shiloh Shephards

[erin_e_123]

Hi! I was just wondering if anyone knows anything about this breed of dog? I have done some research on them, but there isn't a lot because it's apparently a newer breed? I used to have a German as a kid and he was an angel, but apparently the Shiloh has been bread so that they don't have the aggression that German's posses. Is this true?

[Mat&Murph]

Hey, I like the Shiloh Shepard myself. Beatiful breed. They do use them in the OPP and local police.

[Love4himies]

I did meet some Shiloh Shepards at a dog show last fall and they were wonderful dogs.

They were pretty droolie and loved to give kisses, so be prepared for some facials , very calm with sweet dispositions

[LavenderRott]

Saying that they are bred to be less aggressive is kind of like saying that Labradoodles are bred to be non allergenic.

It is my understanding that the Shiloh's (named after a kennel in the U.S.) were bred for the look - long haired, which is a disqualifying fault in the GSD.

I guess if I was looking for one, I would be looking for the same thing I would look for in a GSD breeder, starting with OFA's and CERF's.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by erin_e_123

apparently the Shiloh has been bread so that they don't have the aggression that German's posses. Is this true?

A well bred,well trained,well socialized GSD should never be aggressive..I grew up with this breed and have raised 3..And my brother works with this breed and I am around this breed at work..All these dogs are well trained and not a mean bone in their body,unless they have to be.


The Shiloh is "still" so called under development.Yes they are beautiful dogs,but it doesn't beat the GSD...

Originally Posted by Mat&Murph

They do use them in the OPP and local police.

Have to correct you on that..They do not use this breed on the force.

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by mona_b

A well bred,well trained,well socialized GSD should never be aggressive..I grew up with this breed and have raised 3..And my brother works with this breed and I am around this breed at work..All these dogs are well trained and not a mean bone in their body,unless they have to be.

I guess that would be like saying a pitbulls have an agressive gene :sad:

[erin_e_123]

I grew up with a GSD and he was an angel, so I understand exactly what your saying mona!!! that's why I have been doing my research on the Shiloh as well. They apparently have been bread to lower their chances of developing hip dsyplacia, which my sweet Teddy developed in the last few years of his life and it was really hard to see him in pain. But I'm pretty set on getting a GSD again, but my boyfriend had found out about the Shiloh, so I thought we'd look into it. We aren't looking to get another dog until next summer, but we are realy doing our research!! Thanks everyone!!! Oh, and thanks Mat&Murph for that website!!

[LavenderRott]

An ethical breeder, who studies the lines and makes sure that any and all breeding dogs have been OFA certified as excellent or good, is doing what is necessary to reduce the chances of passing on hip dysplasia.

If you do decide on the Shiloh - make sure that hips and elbows on parents have been cleared. Saying that they have been bred to be less prone to HD is no reason to skip this step. IMHO.

[Blackdog22]

Shiloh's are lovely animals, like any dog but the truth of the matter is, these are just another "designer dog".

They are high priced mutts and are no better or worse then the hundreds of thousands of other dogs dying in the shelter each year.

I am all for the breeding of dogs, as long as you have a legitimate reason to do so. I am appalled at the fact that someone has taken a true working breed struggling to remain pure and created a "sub-breed" in the name of esthetics. The founder of this breed has basically enhanced most of the undesirable traits of the GSD and is now marketing it as a better, healthier "pet".


As for hips? Check the OFA database if you want really get down to the nitty gritty.

All of the qualities that are being marketed by the breeders of Shiloh's can be found in a good GSD breeder. You just have to know what your looking for. Allot of line's throw the occasional long coat and if its size your looking for, just research some bloodlines, there are some very large well bred GSD's out there. I own one of them.

If your are just looking for a pet to love and share life with, please for the love of dogs, rescue.

Many purebred GSD on deathrow are just waiting to give their love to someone and if you are familiar with the breed you know the love of a shepherd is like no other.


And with that, I leave you with a quote from Max von Stephanitz, breed founder of the german shepherd dog.

"Take this trouble for me....make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life for that aim" - Max von Stephanitz on his deathbed.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

I guess that would be like saying a pitbulls have an agressive gene :sad:

Any breed can have an aggressive gene.

Originally Posted by erin_e_123

They apparently have been bread to lower their chances of developing hip dsyplacia

HD will happen in any breed,even a mixed breed..I have grown up with this breed,and have raised 3..My current is 12..None of my dogs have ever had HD..My current does have arthritis which is under control...Maybe it's because I started them on adult at 6 months,or maybe because they were never overly exercised untill they were about 15 months,once the bones were stronger...Who know's....

I have also been hearing that having your pup on Absorbic acid(Vitamin C) untill they are about 18 months will actuall help reduce the any on going of HD...I have actually been now researching it.

With the Shiloh,they are making this breed larger(but with the look of a GSD)..Something a GSD shouldn't be...The male is 140-160lbs.That's pretty heavy if you ask me...They are breeding for size...Something an "ethical" breeder wouldn't do.

My guys came from working lines(SchH).And out of my 3,only one was a "working" dog.That would be my current who is a retired Police Dog..My other two were couch potatoes.LOL

This is a great breed.Why do you think the force uses them? And when training them,they are not looking for aggression.

Trust me,I can go on and on about this breed..........

[BenMax]

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

Shiloh's are lovely animals, like any dog but the truth of the matter is, these are just another "designer dog".

They are high priced mutts and are no better or worse then the hundreds of thousands of other dogs dying in the shelter each year.

I am all for the breeding of dogs, as long as you have a legitimate reason to do so. I am appalled at the fact that someone has taken a true working breed struggling to remain pure and created a "sub-breed" in the name of esthetics. The founder of this breed has basically enhanced most of the undesirable traits of the GSD and is now marketing it as a better, healthier "pet".


As for hips? Check the OFA database if you want really get down to the nitty gritty.

All of the qualities that are being marketed by the breeders of Shiloh's can be found in a good GSD breeder. You just have to know what your looking for. Allot of line's throw the occasional long coat and if its size your looking for, just research some bloodlines, there are some very large well bred GSD's out there. I own one of them.

If your are just looking for a pet to love and share life with, please for the love of dogs, rescue.

Many purebred GSD on deathrow are just waiting to give their love to someone and if you are familiar with the breed you know the love of a shepherd is like no other.


And with that, I leave you with a quote from Max von Stephanitz, breed founder of the german shepherd dog.

"Take this trouble for me....make sure my shepherd dog remains a working dog, for I have struggled all my life for that aim" - Max von Stephanitz on his deathbed.

Thank you for this post. Well written and very well said.

[Bold Canine]

Hi there Erin and everyone else,

I am new to the site, and stumbled across this thread during a routine search for Shiloh Shepherds on the net.

As a Shiloh Shepherd breeder, enthusiast, and supporter I certainly hope that I can assist with answering any questions that you may have with respect to this breed.

Obviously, this is not my first time defending or answering questions with regards to the breed. The world of dogs is a passionate one, and people certainly have varying opinions on the various breeds out there. However, hopefully I can aide with dispelling any myths about the breed in which I am involved.

I'll start with one comment that I'm not too sure about and that is

Shiloh's are lovely animals, like any dog but the truth of the matter is, these are just another "designer dog"

Yes, they are indeed lovely animals, but I am not sure about your classification of "designer dogs". Most tend to try and use such terms in a derogatory fashion, but I'll chock it up to a lack of information regarding the breed.

Most all breeds in existence, unless we're talking about canis lupus, evolved throughout time via various crosses and combinations in order to acquire certain traits. Some of these happened hundreds, if not thousands of years ago, while some happened just over a century ago, and further yet some are happening now. The canine evolves with society, and with societies needs or wants. Whereas a flock guardian was once a staple for a farmer, a majority of dog owners in today's society have no need to have livestock watched over, and hence their role in our lives continue to change. With the Labrador, the Yorkie, and the GSD being the top three breeds in the US in 2007, a vast majority are not being used for/or active in the tasks for which they were originally "designed" - Hunting, catching rats (yorkie), and herding.

In addition of course, breeds even once recognized continue to evolve and change as the discretion of the breeders and breed clubs. No one can say that the GSD of today is the GSD of Von Stephanitz - not saying better or worse, simply different from the type that were present during Max's day. Same with the Yorkie - the Yorkie of 1930 scaled in at 30 lbs, whereas today's is in the 7 lbs range, was this done for the function of catching rats as per their original purpose or due to the desire for a laptop sized dogs and done by "design".

As I said, today's "recognized" breeds came from crossing of various other "breeds" over the years and only the timeline of their existence somehow separates the "recognized" breeds from the "non recognized" breeds. However, the CKC/AKC/UKC etc accept new breeds almost every year and somehow a breeds status suddenly changes from a "designer breed", "mutt", or abomination into a legitimate breed courtesy of the kennel clubs magic wand.

But I digress. lol.

Having said all of the above, yes, the Shiloh was bred by design. To create a good family dog with great size, intelligence, health, and temperament. And simply because the breed's timeline is a bit shorter than that of other breeds does not disqualify it as a legitimate breed. What legitimizes it as a breed is the organization and commitment of the breeders to drive towards the standard as written, to breed healthy sound well tempered dogs, participate in conformation and other such events (herding trials, etc), and to work towards eventually recognition.

I cannot speak for all areas, but the breeds popularity in Ontario, as well as the north eastern US, has grown exponentially over the past decade. This is not due to breeders mass producing litters, but rather thru healthy dogs being true to the standard being bred. For our kennel, we only throw two or so litters per year, and generally the wait time is approximately 1 year (although we have a current buyer that has been waiting two years for our current pairing).

Should the current trend continue, and the quality of the dog be maintained, then there is no reason not to expect the breed to gain full recognition as a breed at some point down the road - although, I know it is not a focus at this current time for the breed club in which I am involved.

The Shiloh Shepherd is a breed unto itself, does not profess to be a GSD, better than a GSD, or any other comparison. It is a breed based on a foundation of the GSD, but developed using selected qualities. The breed began development in the early 1970's and was recognized by ARBA in 1991.

The breed is prone to the same types of ailments that can affect it's founding bloodlines - HD/DJD/Elbows/EPI/Heart issues/Eyes/etc are all areas that breeders focus towards reducing the occurrence of. However, like any responsible breeder, of any breed will do, the dogs go thru various health screening processes prior to entering the breeding gene pool. And hopefully with the aide of science, genetic markers will be found for diseases such as EPI to assist with identification of carriers.

The breed does not make for good police dogs. They do however make good SAR dogs, Therapy Dogs, and do quite well in events suchs as Herding/RallyO/etc. I personally have a St John Ambulance Therapy dog who frequents the local senior citizen home. And a Shiloh gained national attention in 2007 when "Gandalf" found a lost boyscout in the mountains of North Carolina.

Regarding the 140-160 lbs male classification, I'm not personally sold on that. I have one of the larger males in the breed at 31.25" and I keep him between 125-128 lbs. I personally cannot imagine much more size without it simply being flab and excess baggage, and like a large/fit/well conditioned companion.

Size does not necessarily impact on health. For example, my male is OFA Excellent, and so far (knock on wood) has only produced progeny with good hips - however, even if you pair two OFA excellents, the OFA reports themselves state that there is never 100% guarantee HD/DJD cannot be born from such a mating. So, we as breeders simply do our best using the data available to minimize the likelihood of occurrence.

Regarding Temperament. The breed is generally soft to medium. There are many factor and many debates over temperament. What comes from genetics, what comes from environment, what imprint is created over those first few formative weeks/months of life.

I'm sure there are plenty of questions, responses, retorts, and other goodies sure to be headed my way lol. That's quite alright. I simply ask questions are done politely, and I'll endeavour to do my best to answer them to the best of my ability.

Thank you for the opportunity to provide me opinion, albeit long winded lol, on this breed.

For Erin, being in Sarnia, there is a great breeder right in your neighbourhood - Shadowgate Farm. Cher has been with the breed a good deal of time, and always welcoming of visitors.

And finally, the two shilohs in the photo linked here are Poppy on the left, and Carter on the right. They are from Kai Lyn Shilohs in Hillsburg. Love4Himies, you must have seen them at the IABCA show in Gananoque based on your location We are planning a Shiloh Specialty at the 2009 IABCA Gananoque show hopefully - hope you'll stop by for a visit

Regards,
Bold Canine

[14+kitties]

Bold Canine - very well written response in defense of your breeding. I am not saying yay or nay to this. The regulars on this site know my feelings on this subject. I also would be the first to say I am unfamiliar to a large degree on the "breeding" of dogs as my work centers more on the s/n of cats. I would just like an answer to one question if you don't mind.

The breed began development in the early 1970's and was recognized by ARBA in 1991.

On Googling ARBA I found no recognized dog breeders association. All I found is the American Rabbit Breeders Association. Is this the association you are saying recognized this breed?

[Bold Canine]

Hi 14+Kittens,

LOL, althought some of the pups certainly can look like rabbits with their gigantic ears, it was the not the rabit organization that first "recognized" the breed in 1991

The organization is the American Rare Breed Association. The also provide one of the conformation venues for rare breeds. In addition to Rarities (now NAKC), IABCA, and the RBCSWO here in Ontario.

The breed has it's own registries, and currently there are two breed clubs due to internal politics. The NSBR/SSBA/TSSR all recognize and support the ISSDC as our National Breed Club, and the registries work well together with similar rules and regulations. The ISSR registry operates under the SSDCA - however, I cannot provide input on that organization as I am not affiliated with them.

Until such time as the registry is taken over by a national kennel club, the individual breed registries will continue to function.

Please, feel free to ask away. Every online discussion I participate in aides me with understanding questions that may be out there, and how best to answer them, along with hopefully helping educate folks about where we are, where we've been, and where we're hoping to go.


Thanks

[Blackdog22]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Yes, they are indeed lovely animals, but I am not sure about your classification of "designer dogs". Most tend to try and use such terms in a derogatory fashion, but I'll chock it up to a lack of information regarding the breed.

I really do apologize if I seemed derogatory, that was not my intention. I love all dogs, Heinz 57 mutts, purebreds, designer dogs.....
I use the term "designer dog" because IMO that is exactly what they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designer_dog

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

The canine evolves with society, and with societies needs or wants. Whereas a flock guardian was once a staple for a farmer, a majority of dog owners in today's society have no need to have livestock watched over, and hence their role in our lives continue to change. With the Labrador, the Yorkie, and the GSD being the top three breeds in the US in 2007, a vast majority are not being used for/or active in the tasks for which they were originally "designed" - Hunting, catching rats (yorkie), and herding.

I do agree that times have changed and our needs have evolved, that is obvious. I don't know much about Yorkie's, so I will not comment on them, however I do know that hundreds of labs compete each year in NAVHDA trials. I also have family that do guide work(sort of like, tourist hunting for those who don't know) and they never leave without the labs, they are vital for a good hunting trip.

As for GSD.....
You're right. Not many of them herd anymore, though I have heard of some with HIT it's not common. But in the GSD's defense, they were bred to be the total utilitarian dog....a dog that could do whatever was asked of it. The German Shepherd has served man well in it's years. Excelling in many different life saving careers........ I don't think I have to tell you how the GSD has served mankind, the list is endless. IMO the German Shepherd has served man in more venues then any other breed of dog. We have much to thank them for.

Both the Lab and GSD have adapted their purposes well and have served us beyond their original "use". If it aint' broke, why fix it?

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

In addition of course, breeds even once recognized continue to evolve and change as the discretion of the breeders and breed clubs.

I agree.
This is a TRAVESTY.
Many breeders are only in it for the money, to feed their egos, or both. Very few people are in dog breeding to preserve the breed and maintain the standard. Many people(yes, even the 'bigtime' fancy pants breeders with many happy clients) like to believe that they are "helping" the breed by showing dogs, getting titles and health testing...etc, unfortunately there is MUCH more to it then that.
I have met and spoken with many breeders, and I am convinced that most of them are betraying and polluting the breed they claim to love, simply by lack of knowledge or ignorance. Worse are the people that get into breeding with the intent to "improve" the breed, or line. Nothing good can come of it.

IMO breeders of today need to seriously start thinking of preserving not improving.

As for breed clubs and registries, most of them are useless and must take some responsibility for the fall of purebred dogs. Few registries demand dogs be health tested before being bred, titled or tempermant tested. Any half-wit with 2registered dogs can produce registered puppies.

Breeds changing and evolving at the discretion of breeders and breed clubs? Yeah. Is it good? One glance at the bargain finder tells me it isn't.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

No one can say that the GSD of today is the GSD of Von Stephanitz - not saying better or worse, simply different from the type that were present during Max's day.

The GSD is a breed that has been exploited beyond possible comprehension. Anyone who is involved with the breed knows there is a great divide. The GSD was very lucky to have such an involved and responsible breed founder. He laid everything out on the table. Told us how it should be and gave us the tools to accomplish it. He developed an entire system...all for the GSD. We had it easy, a foolproof blueprint. Of course, being human we messed it all up. Horribly. People began deviating away from Max's idea, twisting his words to fit their intentions.
Before long everything fell apart and now it seems beyond repair.

Some breeders stayed true and I think Max would be very pleased with many of the GSD of today.
Sure the good ones are few and far between, but if you know what to look for and you really take the time, you can find it.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

As I said, today's "recognized" breeds came from crossing of various other "breeds" over the years and only the timeline of their existence somehow separates the "recognized" breeds from the "non recognized" breeds.

That's a pretty crude generalization.
Off the top of my head I can think of 2 breeds that were recently(within last 10 years) recognized with the CKC that are FAR older then many CKC recognized breeds. The Cane Corso or the Neo, for instance. I dont think a breeds timeline has anything to do with being registered, but Im not on any type of breed council, so I really wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

However, the CKC/AKC/UKC etc accept new breeds almost every year and somehow a breeds status suddenly changes from a "designer breed", "mutt", or abomination into a legitimate breed courtesy of the kennel clubs magic wand.

Not a good thing IMO.
There are hundreds of registered breeds to choose from if someone wants a purebred dog. No need to create more to suit the needs of people.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

But I digress. lol.

Having said all of the above, yes, the Shiloh was bred by design. To create a good family dog with great size, intelligence, health, and temperament.

This is the exact reason why I do not condone the breeding or buying of these dogs. Any person who takes the time can find all of these traits in a well bred GSD(if the shepherd look is what your after) or if looks are not important(which they shouldn't be if the dog is just a pet) you can find a multitude of dogs in the shelter that fit this description. No need to further exploit our breed.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

And simply because the breed's timeline is a bit shorter than that of other breeds does not disqualify it as a legitimate breed.

No arguement there. I dont think timeline has any bearing on whether a breed is legitimate or not. What makes a breed legit to me is purpose.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

What legitimizes it as a breed is the organization and commitment of the breeders to drive towards the standard as written, to breed healthy sound well tempered dogs, participate in conformation and other such events (herding trials, etc), and to work towards eventually recognition.

That's your opinion, but IMO there is much more to it then that.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

I cannot speak for all areas, but the breeds popularity in Ontario, as well as the north eastern US, has grown exponentially over the past decade. This is not due to breeders mass producing litters, but rather thru healthy dogs being true to the standard being bred.

How does popularity have any bearing on..well, anything?

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Should the current trend continue, and the quality of the dog be maintained, then there is no reason not to expect the breed to gain full recognition as a breed at some point down the road - although, I know it is not a focus at this current time for the breed club in which I am involved.

If not to gain recognition and "legitimize" the breed, what is the intention of the breed club?





The rest of your post was basically about the characteristics of the breed and practices of breeders. Im not going to comment on any of that.

The thing that bothers me the most, that I can't comprehend about your breed, is why you are doing it.

Why create a pet, to supply people with pets, when thousands of worthy animals that have the EXACT SAME traits you are breeding for (size, health, coat, lovable tempermant) are dying namelessly in shelters.

It's my opinion that if you like a breed, research it and it has traits that are unmanagable for you, look at another breed! Don't try to create a hunting dog that doesn't sniff, or a lap dog that wont cuddle to suit your needs. I find it selfish.

I desperately LOVE pitbulls, I love everything about them...infact I love them more then I love GSD. But I do not own one. Why? because they have traits that I cannot sufficeintly manage. I didn't go out and buy some sort of "pitbull sub-breed" or try to "create my own" , I evaluated my situation and chose a breed that suited my needs.

[Dracko]

Why create a pet, to supply people with pets, when thousands of worthy animals that have the EXACT SAME traits you are breeding for (size, health, coat, lovable tempermant) are dying namelessly in shelters.

It's my opinion that if you like a breed, research it and it has traits that are unmanagable for you, look at another breed! Don't try to create a hunting dog that doesn't sniff, or a lap dog that wont cuddle to suit your needs. I find it selfish.

[Bold Canine]

Wowza Blackdog, where to begin...

Well, first, thanks for your reply. It's always nice when a healthy discussion/debate can be had which encompasses varying opinions and ideally is based on the use of logic and fact versus simply personal preferences (which are not necessarily fact or employ logic).

However, I think it should be noted that should MVS not decided to create his breed, the beloved GSD would not be here among us today! You can't say that you disagree with breed development when your own was developed a mere hundred years ago. And I would wager a guess that there were a high number of stray dogs available back in the day too!

I'm sure that you are thankful that if someone questioned the GSD back in those formative years, the breed development continued. Just as the Shiloh will.

The fact that the GSD has accompished so many wonderful achievements over the years was thanks to time, ability, and popularity. It's a great breed and no one, at least not the Shiloh, is trying to somehow be a version of it. The Shiloh is a Shiloh, not a GSD.

The Shiloh too has already started to make it's mark on activity in society. http://www.goupstate.com/article/200...703210329/1044

or this year and Takota http://www.njvma.org/hall/2008.asp

Or better yet watch the video on him http://www.njvma.org/hall/videos/200...%20Therapy.mov

Regarding working qualities, the shiloh is active in many of them http://www.shilohs.issdc.com/ISSDC/ISSDCDogsAtWork.htm

So, give this breed enough time and you'll see some amazing things be accomplished as well. And Takota to me, epitomizes one of the great strengths of this breed.

And regarding the Lab, "and the hundreds" (as you state) that are involved in trials, there were over 10,800 labs registered in the US in 2007. So, although yes some are active, I would venture a guess that a VAST VAST majority have never seen a trail or activity for which they were originally "designed".

I appreciate that you feel there are enough breeds in existence, that your right to have an opinion. Not everyone shares that opinion. The Shiloh seems unique enough to us involved with the breed that there is a place for it among canines, even though some folks such as yourself somehow feel there is not.

No need to further exploit our breed.

* No one is exploting your breed. The Shiloh is it's own breed. If someone wants a GSD, they can get a GSD. Simple.

How does popularity have any bearing on..well, anything?

* What effect does popularity have? Does it not have a huge effect towards the furtherance of a breed? If the breed had no popularity or interest, then it would be indiciative that there was no place or need for it in society. However, it is becoming increasingly popular thanks to breeding ethics and increased public prescence. If there was no interest, the breed wouldnt been producing, and it would simply collapse in upon itself. However, this is far from the case.

If not to gain recognition and "legitimize" the breed, what is the intention of the breed club

* Never stated the club is not aimmed towards recognition. Said it's not the main focus for the club at this time. Why would one rush to hand over control to a kennel club who is not intimately involved with the breed? In due time.

Sure the good ones are few and far between, but if you know what to look for and you really take the time, you can find it

* Wow, not sure what that says about the breed you love. One of the most popular breeds and you state that good breeders are few and far between. And perhaps rather than worrying about what other breeds are accomplishing, more focus should be aimmed inwards on how to change that trend within your breed to read that poor breeders are far and few between. IMHO of course. Perhaps that is a pitfull of being too large a breed, and the lack of control that follows, and perhaps then there is more merit to a smaller club vs a CKC/AKC which might not follow breeding practices as closely.

Since you state that a breed should not be created to suit ones needs and to look towards existing breeds, perhaps you could indicate which breed best matches what the Shiloh breed standard states?

I agree that there are MANY dogs currently in shelters, and encourage people to rescue them. I have one rescue in my home, got involved with the breed rescuing a shepherd that looked like a possible Shiloh (which wasnt), fostered dogs in the past year - one being a purebred GSD, and my wife is very active with the local Humane Society.

I'd actually be throwing that one back into your court, since it would appear that it is the most popular breeds being bred in the US that are providing a fair shelter population. Labs, GSDs, Rotties, Pits, all seem to be fairly common place in any local shelter. Where are the breeders that bred these dogs? What ownership are they taking with their progeny. I know with the Shiloh, there are very few that will end up in those situations, and when one does somehow, the breed club generally gets involved with rescue and rehome actions. I know as a breeder, if one of our progeny required rehome, he/she would be coming back to us.

It's great to encourage people to rescue dogs from shelters, but simply to put it that if they dont like an existing "recognized breed" that they should go to a shelter is simply silly. A shelter rescue is a wonderful thing. But without knowledge of health, temperament, enviroment, etc, is not always an easy task and can prove to be very costly. That's not saying "dont adopt" but simply that it's not always an easy task, or the task that anyone is capable of. It's a wonderful act if people can do it.

I find your passion regarding the GSD wonderful. It's a beautiful breed. But not one for everyone, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with the development and growth of the Shiloh breed. Just as there will be nothing wrong when it XX years someone comes along to create another breed.

Perhaps, if less people went out to buy "hunting dogs" that are great at sniffing, or Working dogs that are great at protective services, and focused on intelligent companion dogs that fit into today's home environments and are intelligent enough to serve various working capacities, there would be less dogs in the shelters - and more dogs with their FAMILIES.

The bottom line is that is a breed has merit, it will flourish and if it does not, it will flounder and go the way of the dodo bird. So far, the Shiloh is proving it will flourish, regardless as to whether or not someone feels there is place for them in the canine kingdom.

I'm sorry if you disagree with the "purpose" of a Shiloh (that is entirely your right), or the abilities of the breed. Thankfully, the folks that are out visiting breeders, and becoming guardians to these fur kids, and the breed will counting to grow - at least here in Canada and the US.



Respectfully,

[Bold Canine]

Hi Blackdog,

Regarding the Designer Dog statement, based on your wiki link, does not seem to fit the Shiloh breed at all:

Designer dogs are described by whimsical portmanteau words, such as cockapoo. Dog hybrids (designer dogs) may be first generation crosses from two purebred breeds, or any of various backcrosses, or the result of breeding successive generations of crosses in an effort to create a new breed of purebred dog, or outcrosses of any of those; the term hybrid dog (designer dog) does not have a consistent meaning.

Not sure which part of that description matches the Shiloh Shepherd.

[Blackdog22]

Regarding the designer dog statement, I stand by what I previously said.
It is my opinion, the Shiloh is a Designer dog.....

Im very happy to be able to have this conversation with you BoldCanine, it's fun!

I actually came across this subject on a different forum I am apart of and they brought up some very valid points.

Bottom line, in this conversation nobody is right, it's all a matter of perspective.

I will be very happy to share my opinion with you in a bit, as I would like to keep this conversation going as long as possible. It's a great opportunity for me to learn....as well as others.

I will be back.....
must....find.....info.....
lol

[Bold Canine]

LOL, I'll promise to be nice if you promise

You state:

Regarding the designer dog statement, I stand by what I previously said.
It is my opinion, the Shiloh is a Designer dog.....

Yet, I quote the link that you provided and ask how the Shiloh fits the definition of Designer Breed per your link.

I do agree, that we'll unlikely resolve it, but in the end hopefully we'll each have a respect for differing opinions.

I actually search out these types of discussions. It helps me think of the questions that are out there, and how I feel they should be answered. Of course, I by no means am the "official shiloh guy" but I enjoy healthy debate.

At the end of the day, it's not like you'll change my opinion on the breed, nor will I yours.

And please, dont think that I an a shiloh enthusiast because of any dislike of the GSD. I love the GSDs, I love what they have done, what they are doing, and what they have done for the canine world. I simply chose a different path to follow and am focused on helping further this breed any way that I can.

BC

PS. How about PMing me the link to the other forum. You could say I'm a glutton for punishment, but I do enjoy debate...

[Blackdog22]

Awesome, I definately promise to be nice....I do not know nearly enough about your breed (or even my own) to start throwing weight around.

I agree, it's not like we will change each others mind, but I can appreciate a good, respectful conversation.....and who knows, perhaps I may even learn something
lol

I will send you a PM shortly....it takes me a while to load webpages on my computer.

[Blackdog22]

Regarding the link, I think this part most accurately describes the shiloh as of now,:
or the result of breeding successive generations of crosses in an effort to create a new breed of purebred dog

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

Many breeders are only in it for the money, to feed their egos, or both. Very few people are in dog breeding to preserve the breed and maintain the standard. Many people(yes, even the 'bigtime' fancy pants breeders with many happy clients) like to believe that they are "helping" the breed by showing dogs, getting titles and health testing...etc, unfortunately there is MUCH more to it then that. .

Well let me start by saying, ETHICAL breeders do NOT do it for the money. If anything,they lose money.Health/genetic testing along with show/titles are VERY VERY important to an ethical breeder..This actually is a must..Would you rather a breeder not do any of this and just breed unhealthy pups that are out of standard?

Originally Posted by Blackdog22

I have met and spoken with many breeders, and I am convinced that most of them are betraying and polluting the breed they claim to love, simply by lack of knowledge or ignorance..

I'm trying to figure out what breeders you have talked to...All the breeders I know are far from being ignorant when it comes to thier breed. And clubs like the GSDCC has a very stricked Code of Ethics.

The GSD is serving it's purpose as per Max von Stephanitz. The GSD was not solely bred for herding. They were also used in the War.

This is a breed after my heart..My Mom owned her first GSD when she lived in Germany for 10 years...This breed has been in my family before I was born. And as a child I grew up with them..I have raised 3 in 24 years..I have family members/friends and co-workers who have them also...My brother is on the Canine Unit and has been for 20+ years..He works with this breed.

As for my breeder()..All dogs were health/genetic tested and cleared.Shown to CH and Titled in SchH lll.Also competed in the Seiger shows. And like her and many other breeders,her dogs were supplied to Police Depts.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

yes, the Shiloh was bred by design. To create a good family dog with great size, intelligence, health, and temperament.

We don't need new dogs for part of the family..The ones we have will do..

As for the Shiloh,I've looked this breed up a few years ago...To me, Tina is just re-creating another style of GSD..Why would she come up with this breed that looks SOOOOOO much like a GSD?..If I recall,she did breed and train GSD's.

[hazelrunpack]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Perhaps, if less people went out to buy "hunting dogs" that are great at sniffing, or Working dogs that are great at protective services, and focused on intelligent companion dogs that fit into today's home environments and are intelligent enough to serve various working capacities, there would be less dogs in the shelters - and more dogs with their FAMILIES.

We were looking to buy 'hunting dogs' that were great at sniffing....and ended up with 8 of them. We were also looking for dogs that were good with people. We found a breed that matched what we were looking for, including intelligence, the desire to be with their humans, and, yes, the adaptability to serve in various capacities. So I fail to see the logic in your statement above.

Most dogs I know, whether 'pure bred' or 'mutt', have a mulititude of talents and characteristics that enable them to mesh well with a human family. The failings appear to mostly lie with humans ill-suited to meshing with dogs.

So why you would feel that there are not enough "intelligent companion dogs that fit into today's home environments and are intelligent enough to serve various working capacities", is sort of beyond me.

I see quite a few out there that need homes and see no reason to develop a new breed with those same qualities when there are already so many in need.

Just my ...

[BenMax]

I have been following this thread for some time now and find it facinating on all accounts. I really have very little to add but looking at this from a rescue point of view, I am very curious if there are rescue groups here in Canada and the US.

From experience I can absolutely say that this 'breed' will be within the rescue/shelter system in no time. Where do we go? Who do we contact? What is the plan of action?

Anything that you can provide will be very useful for us here in rescue.

[Bold Canine]

Hi folks,

All great posts, and all positions are appreciated.

First, for BenMax, yes there is a rescue organization via the parent club - the ISSDC. http://www.shilohs.issdc.com/ISSDC/ISSDCPageRescue.htm

I'm certainly not trying to state that shilohs never end up in a rehome. Hopefully, with involved breeders following their progeny, this should not happen. But in the event that it does, we have mechanisms and funding in place to try to get them out and into fosters or forever homes. One of the lead coordinators is here in Canada and is active in rescues across the continent.

At our local shows here in Ontario with the RBCSWO, we raise money via BBQs each show weekend to assist with rehome efforts. Last year alone, at least 4 shilohs from down in the US found forever homes here in Canada. I drove to Connecticut last February to bring two girls back here for placement in Minden Ontario. And since another few have been flown up and placed.

Hazelrunpack, good points. Not saying there are "no" dogs that serve their original purposes such as your pack. But, you cannot argue that a majority are not active in their original design function (or perhaps you can lol).

So, by your arguement, a breed cannot be designed since there are existing breeds? So, in the AKC Hound group there are 23 breeds of dogs. So why not stop after one breed? If you have a hound breed in existance, why the need for 22 other breeds? There are 20 herding breeds recognized. Why not stop after the first breed since there was already a "herding breed".

The fact of the matter is that the breed has already been in development for 30+ years. So, the debate on whether or not the breed should be created is moot. The breed is here, the breed does exist, there is an increasing population and breeder base, and there is a demand for it. So, anything regarding the breeds existance is now irrelevant. At least, IMHO

Mona_b, well, at this stage the breed has far outgrown the kennel of origin and grown to a national/internation scale. And, although I respect your position that there are "enough breeds in the family", I simply do not agree with it. I'm sure someone said that when the Dobberman was developed, or the Retreiver, or... (insert breed name here).

Since the breed does not fit any other breeds standard, then it's not really any other breed is it?

You should be able to agree with the logic that if a breed has no merit that it will die off? Correct? I mean, if there are not progeny being placed in homes, generating a need for litters, then the population will implode upon itself and fade into history along with the pet rock. But, the fact of the matter is that there is a huge demand for the Shiloh. Waiting lists can run over a year, etc. And the demand for the breed propels the population and further solidifies it's existance.

So, it is fine that you as a GSD enthusiast (which is a gorgeous and intelligent breed) do not see the need for the Shiloh, the fact is that society does not necessarily support your particular position.

Again, I don't think anyone here is going to change their opinions by the end of this discussion. I'll continue to be active with the breed, you'll continue to be active and passionate about your breeds of choice. And there will always be those the will say there are enough dogs in shelters to stop the need for breeds. But that holds true then for every breeder in existance - regardless of breed, and the fact is that is breeders were held more responsible, then less dogs of any breed would be ending up in a shelter.

Respectfully,

[BenMax]

Thank you for the information on rescue Bold Canine. Within which province does a rescue exist or is it foster families that have been coordinated?

I appreciate the link however I have noticed that the Shiloh vary in color, size, and appearance. How do we know we have a Shiloh? Is there any distinctive features?

Any added information would be greatly appreciated. I will pass this information to other rescues I work with as well as our local shelter.

Thanks.

[Bold Canine]

Hi BenMax,

No problem.

Not sure I 100% follow your question regarding within the province? The ISSDC, being the parent club, also has a regional Ontario "chapter" to which I am a part of.

One of the lead co-ordinators of the Rescue is based here in Ontario (Hillsburg to be exact), and can be reached via the parent club link.

The best used tool for helping identify the breed would likely be the breed standard. The ear set, head, muzzle, coat, size, can all help as identifying features. The size is also a strong indication as even a bitch will be larger than many GSDs or other shepherd type dogs. Regarding colouring, the breed comes in sable and dual coated - with varying colours from grey/silver/red/brown sables, thru to black and cream duals - and occassionally pure whites (or buff). Additionally there are two coat types Plush and Smooth.
http://www.shilohs.issdc.com/ISSDC/I...edStandard.htm

Please, any time a possible shiloh is discovered, we would request that the Rescue Team be contacted at rescue@issdc.com. Or I am sure that Virigina could be phoned directly (I'll get that number, her approval, and PM you).

Thanks again. Any assistance to help educate the shelters and all the Rescue Team to get involved when needed would be just great!

[BenMax]

Thanks again Bold Canine. It is very important that breeders and rescues work together on this so that we can find out where these dogs are being bred and by whom. My main concern of course is the un-ethical, BYB, and puppymillers. I do not want to see this happen but I am certain it will. I rather see this breed go back and be re-homed by those that are fluent within the breed as most rescues are not well versed when it comes to Shilohs and some other breeds as well. It is my personal opinion that if a rescue is not equipt to re-home then this breed should be forwarded to those rescues that are breed specific. I may be alone in this philosophy but I will stand fast on this issue. Personally, I will forward all chows or Shar peis to another rescue since we are not breed savvy in regards to them. I rather transfer a breed to those that have a data base of people waiting for a specific breed and are better equipt to find forever homes based on temperment and characteristics.

My concern however again is identifying them. I do have your link but I could also say that I have seen them before in rescue. Could that be possible? They do appear somewhat mixed and can be taken as such.

I in no way am trying to be condesending Bold Canine - please do not take it this way. I really want to ensure that we (rescue/shelters) get it right.

[Bold Canine]

LOL that's okay BenMax. Never took it as condesending at all

Most folks involved with the breed can usually confirm a shiloh by look. But, I do appreciate your comment that it can indeed be difficult.

Our first recue, was a shepherd type. Vets had told he was an elkhund, a this, a that, and then someone said a shiloh (which is clearly was not) but lead us down the path to the breed in which we are now involved.

What I would suggest, if that if you think a particular rescue in a shelter could be a shiloh, then get a hold of a shiloh person, the rescue club, a breeder, me, whoever, who would likely be able to tell by a picture if there is a strong likelihood it is indeed a shiloh.

I know that the rescue group has been involved with some dogs that could be questionable, but what is the wrong in erring on the side of the dogs sake? I mean, end of the day, if you can help a dog - any dog - regardless of "breed" then you've done the right thing.