Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > On topic - Pet chat, opinions, feelings and rants

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old December 7th, 2009, 12:42 PM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,408
Please DON’T bring me home for the holidays

Every year about this time plans are being hatched, secrets are being made. This is finally the year that little Johnny is old enough to get that puppy, for little Joanie to get that adorable kitten. Every year thousands of pets come “home for the holidays.”

Johnny’s eyes fill with excitement when he sees that wiggling little body race toward him. His parents thought they were being good pet owners. They had listened to the stories about dogs being ignored in favour of all the excitement of Christmas day. They gave Johnny the puppy on Boxing Day. He promises to take “Joey” for a walk three times a day, to keep him fed and give him fresh water. He spends Boxing Day playing and romping with Joey, so happy to get this present he’s always wanted.
For the first few days he is true to his promise. He takes Joey outside for his walks. He makes sure Joey always has food and water. By mid March the excitement is starting to wear thin. Who wants to take a puppy that is growing quickly for a walk when Johnny could be playing his Wii? His mom yells at him to come clean up the mess Joey has made on her clean kitchen floor. Joey is no longer a cute little puppy. He is growing and bored because no one pays attention to him. So he starts to chew on things he knows he shouldn’t. Windowsills, shoes, chair legs, whatever his teeth can find.
Fast forward a year. That cute little pup is now a large dog. No room in the house for an animal who cannot behave, cannot be housebroken. He is tied to a dog house, no insulation, no blankets to keep him warm. Forced to find what small warmth he can huddled into as small of a ball as he can make himself. His unpalatable food is thrown into a filthy, mud caked dog dish. Gone were the days when he was a happy puppy. Johnny has forgotten him.

Joanie squealed with delight as her father handed her a sweet bundle of fur. It was so tiny it fit into her two hands. “Oh daddy, thank you!! I promise I will take care of her forever!” And Joanie was true to her word. She faithfully fed little Tiger. She grumbled a little every time she had to clean the litter box. She spent time playing with Tiger. She loved her so much. But Tiger got bigger. Her hormones started to kick in. She reacted the way a cat does. She started yowling for a mate, trying to escape every time a door was opened. She needed relief from the incessant cravings of her body. Joanie’s parents didn’t want to have to pay to get her spayed. They didn’t know with a little research they could have found some programs to help pay for the operation.
One night Joanie’s mom had finally had enough of Tiger’s yowls. She opened the door and put her out. Tiger came back a couple of days later, relaxed and happy to be home. A few weeks later the parents noticed her getting fatter. They sure didn’t sign on for a bunch of kittens. No way!! Joanie sobbed as her dad drove out to the country with Tiger and dropped her at the side of a road. Tiger was confused. How did she find her way home now? She quickly found out she needed to start hunting. She had babies coming she would need to look after.
Fast forward for Tiger. She had raised her kittens and sent them on to do what cats do. Procreate. No human hand would ever touch any of them. But they would create hundreds of new lives. All unwanted. All fighting to survive.
Tiger was chasing a mouse across the road one day, so intent on catching it and finally finding some food for her grumbling belly that she didn’t hear the car approaching. The force of the impact threw her tiny body into the ditch. Did death come instantly? No. Her pain wracked body fought for hours before finally giving in to blessed oblivion.

Please do the responsible thing. If you are getting a pet for Christmas please reconsider. It is a large responsibility to have a pet. They deserve a lifetime of love; not just a few weeks until their cuteness has worn off. Before making the monumental decision sit down as a family and decide who is responsible for looking after this new member of the family. Get the puppy or kitten after the holidays when life has returned to normal. Dogs need walked. Cats need clean litter boxes and lots of cuddling. They also do not need to be outside. Cats can live quite happily indoors. Most importantly please spay and neuter. There are many low cost spay/neuter programs out there if you can not afford to pay the vet’s price. Spend some time to find one and then take your pet to be fixed. Most vets will fix pets at around six months. We need to be responsible for our pets.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!

Last edited by 14+kitties; December 8th, 2009 at 05:56 PM. Reason: grammer
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old December 7th, 2009, 12:58 PM
Love4himies's Avatar
Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boating in the 1000 Islands
Posts: 17,629
This happens all too often :sad:, thanks for posting, 14+.
__________________
Cat maid to:


Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs)

Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old December 7th, 2009, 01:06 PM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
This happens all too often :sad:, thanks for posting, 14+.
I just sent it to my local paper for letter to the editor. If anyone would like to do the same feel free. Help get the message out.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old December 7th, 2009, 01:13 PM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,408
Holy Smoke! Talk about fast!! I sent my email to the paper just about ten minutes ago and I just got a call from them. The letter will be published either this week or next!!!!
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old December 7th, 2009, 01:26 PM
dogcatharmony's Avatar
dogcatharmony dogcatharmony is offline
Pumpkin' Dumplin' Gang
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Northern Ontario
Posts: 1,073
wtg !

I know I just started seeing ads on television about bringing home a pet for the holidays. Saying it's the best gift ever. Makes me sad.
__________________
My personal take on cat purring:
1 cat Mono
2 cats Stereo
3+ cats......Surround sound
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old December 7th, 2009, 01:35 PM
Love4himies's Avatar
Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boating in the 1000 Islands
Posts: 17,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Holy Smoke! Talk about fast!! I sent my email to the paper just about ten minutes ago and I just got a call from them. The letter will be published either this week or next!!!!
__________________
Cat maid to:


Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 13 yrs)

Jasper RIP (2001-2018)
Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old December 7th, 2009, 01:38 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 10,187
Well written...and sadly so true.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old December 7th, 2009, 01:40 PM
rainbow's Avatar
rainbow rainbow is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beautiful BC's Kootenay Country
Posts: 34,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Holy Smoke! Talk about fast!! I sent my email to the paper just about ten minutes ago and I just got a call from them. The letter will be published either this week or next!!!!
WOO HOO ....well done.

And, thanks for posting it here as well.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old December 7th, 2009, 04:21 PM
Chaser's Avatar
Chaser Chaser is offline
Now I'm Mrs. Chaser!
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 2,407
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Holy Smoke! Talk about fast!! I sent my email to the paper just about ten minutes ago and I just got a call from them. The letter will be published either this week or next!!!!
That's fantastic!!!!!

That is very well done 14+ - you told the brutal truth and didn't sugarcoat it. I hope people will take the message to heart.
__________________
Chase (Friendly Resident Wigglebum) - Border Collie/Lab/Shepherd X
Kailey (Misunderstood Gentle Beauty) - GSD & foster failure #1
Rupert (Gold-Medal Winner of the 3 a.m. Kitty Destruction Olympics )

Heidi - RIP my sweet baby girl
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old December 7th, 2009, 04:59 PM
krdahmer's Avatar
krdahmer krdahmer is offline
~Cat Servent~
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Niagara Falls, Ontario
Posts: 5,229
Can you email that to the Niagara Falls review too? We need that published here so badly. Always better if it comes from the actual writer. Awesome job! And you are in Niagara technically....
__________________
Windy~Smoke~Buddy~Palomine~Fagan~Asker~Mickey Blue Eyes Venus

“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated” -Mahatma Gandhi

"We're the renegades, we're the people; With our own philosophies; We change the course of history; Everyday people like you and me"- R A T M
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old December 7th, 2009, 05:07 PM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by krdahmer View Post
Can you email that to the Niagara Falls review too? We need that published here so badly. Always better if it comes from the actual writer. Awesome job! And you are in Niagara technically....
Done. Just have to wait to see if they email me back.
For anyone else you can put your name and say you have permission from the author.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old December 7th, 2009, 06:45 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 53,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Holy Smoke! Talk about fast!! I sent my email to the paper just about ten minutes ago and I just got a call from them. The letter will be published either this week or next!!!!
Great job, 14+

that it makes some people think twice...or three times...
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old December 7th, 2009, 07:25 PM
budgrrl's Avatar
budgrrl budgrrl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Thunder Bay, ON
Posts: 252
beautifully written 14+!! your letter literally brought a tear to my eye!!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old December 7th, 2009, 07:52 PM
luckypenny's Avatar
luckypenny luckypenny is offline
Doggie Wench
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St. Philippe-de-Laprairie, Qc
Posts: 11,780
Fantastic 14+ .
__________________
"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old December 7th, 2009, 08:30 PM
SolaMio's Avatar
SolaMio SolaMio is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dog-lovin' Cape Breton, NS
Posts: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgrrl View Post
beautifully written 14+!! your letter literally brought a tear to my eye!!
Me too. We all know these stories but bringing them "to life" is hard to swallow. :sad:

But yes, get the word out and these wretched cases may become less frequent

(PS have another one for all the cute and fuzzies being bought at petstores this time of year...? Bunnies, chinchillas, mice, hamsters, rats, gerbils, snakes, all types of lizards and geckos, fish...... sigh).
__________________
J'embrasse mon chien sur la bouche!

"To err is human, to forgive, canine." -Unknown

Mom to:
Sola: 18 month old black lab/malamute
Luna: 2 year old Siberian Husky (rescue)
Millie: 2.5 year old tabby (rescue)
Layla: ?? year old calico (rescue)

Former mom to (RIP):
Nicole: Maine Coon cat 1985-1999
Poncho: Degu
Bibi: Degu
Josette: St. Bernard, childhood pet
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old December 7th, 2009, 09:02 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,225
Good job 14+ !!!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old December 7th, 2009, 09:12 PM
ancientgirl's Avatar
ancientgirl ancientgirl is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 15,069
Excellent 14+. I have experienced this in my family, with my cousin and her ex-husband. A Christmas puppy who all the kids fought over quickly turned into a dog nobody even wanted to be bothered with. Even feeding him became a chore everyone complained about.:sad:
__________________
There are only two rules at my house: House rule #1. Cats rule. House rule #2. See rule #1.

http://nuriaandthegang.shutterfly.com/
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old December 8th, 2009, 09:53 AM
Chris21711 Chris21711 is offline
-
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Queensville, Ontario
Posts: 8,990
Nicely crafted 14k ....even if only one person heeds your words and rethinks whether they should or not, you will have got the message out there
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old December 8th, 2009, 09:59 AM
quincymycat's Avatar
quincymycat quincymycat is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Stouffville Ontario
Posts: 4,074
Beautifully done 14+.
It brings to mind another story of being at the vet's office one year right after Christmas and seeing the tearful expression of a child who's new kitten was having to be put down because of severe illness. After speaking with my vet, it was the oh so familiar story of the kitty being purchased at a pet store as a Christmas present. I am so very sure that that little girl will remember that Christmas present for a very long time, and not with joy.:sad:
__________________
No Heaven can be Heaven if my cats are not there to welcome me

Yes, I believe in the Rainbow Bridge
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old December 8th, 2009, 12:55 PM
Mommyoftwo Mommyoftwo is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 3
A coworker asked me yesterdayto recommend a Shih Tzu breeder. The first thing I said was "Is this going to be a Christmas present?". The answer was no, they will be looking in the new year. If the answer had been yes than I my reply to him would have been different. And even double lucky was that the breeder I recommended doesn't have litters this time of year so that none of her puppies can be presents.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old December 8th, 2009, 04:10 PM
Luvmypitgirls's Avatar
Luvmypitgirls Luvmypitgirls is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: High River Alberta
Posts: 2,655
Quote:
Originally Posted by budgrrl View Post
beautifully written 14+!! your letter literally brought a tear to my eye!!
Ditto!
Thanks for posting this 14+, I would like to submit it to my local paper as well, with your permission of course.
__________________
Abigail~ APBT~ 2
Jersey ~ APBT~5(ish)
Kato ~Rottie~ 5&1/2
Wendellan~ Feline~ 10(ish)
Theedee~Feline~10(ish)
"Da-Goob"~ APBT/Dogo x (5-6ish)


"My Pitbulls are better behaved than your kids!" (my favorite bumper sticker)
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old December 8th, 2009, 04:18 PM
Elizabeth Ann's Avatar
Elizabeth Ann Elizabeth Ann is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ontario
Posts: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mommyoftwo View Post
A coworker asked me yesterdayto recommend a Shih Tzu breeder. The first thing I said was "Is this going to be a Christmas present?". The answer was no, they will be looking in the new year. If the answer had been yes than I my reply to him would have been different. And even double lucky was that the breeder I recommended doesn't have litters this time of year so that none of her puppies can be presents.
(the above post is me).

I sent the post along with a link to the thread to newspapers in my area. So far one has read it.
__________________
************************************************************************************
There is no psychiatrist in the world like a puppy licking your face. ~Ben Williams

The great pleasure of a dog is that you may make a fool of yourself with him and not only will he not scold you, but he will make a fool of himself too. ~Samuel Butler, Notebooks, 1912
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old December 8th, 2009, 05:58 PM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luvmypitgirls View Post
Ditto!
Thanks for posting this 14+, I would like to submit it to my local paper as well, with your permission of course.
You've got it. Thank you!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Ann View Post
(the above post is me).

I sent the post along with a link to the thread to newspapers in my area. So far one has read it.
Thank you Elizabeth Ann. I appreciate you spreading the word.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old December 8th, 2009, 07:08 PM
Equla Equla is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Las Vegas, NV USA
Posts: 294
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolaMio View Post
(PS have another one for all the cute and fuzzies being bought at petstores this time of year...? Bunnies, chinchillas, mice, hamsters, rats, gerbils, snakes, all types of lizards and geckos, fish...... sigh).
Have everyone who wants to get a hamster buy one of these instead.

http://www.zhuzhupets.com/index.php?...&id=1&Itemid=2

They don't eat, sleep when you want them to, no poo... and if the cat eats it, you really can get another one just like it.
__________________
The Beasts...

The Maine Coon Mafia (litter mates)
Casey - Male Maine Coon, 3 years
Mak - Male Maine Coon, 3 years

The abandoned newcomer: Linus - Male Tabby, 1 year
Minnie - Female Tortie, RIP 9/3/93-8/18/09 (In Heaven, but never far from our hearts)

The Pooches... Best friends for life.
Miko - Male Chi/Terrier mix, 2 years
Mansa - Male Pit Bull, 1 year
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old December 8th, 2009, 07:57 PM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,408
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolaMio View Post
(PS have another one for all the cute and fuzzies being bought at petstores this time of year...? Bunnies, chinchillas, mice, hamsters, rats, gerbils, snakes, all types of lizards and geckos, fish...... sigh).
I'll see what I can do. Brain is in overdrive with shopping and work.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old December 13th, 2009, 10:04 AM
joeysmama joeysmama is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: northeast
Posts: 1,343
Thanks for posting this. Well written and powerful. I hated reading it because it's so true and it's practically an epidemic.:sad: So many abandoned mistreated and euthanized creatures, just because people are selfish and don't think past what they want right now today.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old December 13th, 2009, 01:15 PM
14+kitties's Avatar
14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
150% PRO S/N
Starcastle Champion, V:force Champion, UFO Shoot Out Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Disc Dash Champion, Crazy Closet Champion, Railway Line Champion, Penguin Pass Champion
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: MYOB
Posts: 15,408
Thank you joeysmama. I spoke to my contact with TCR when I took the kittens to be fixed today. She asked for me to email it to her so she could post it on the forum she belongs to.
__________________
Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me.

We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old December 15th, 2009, 01:55 AM
MyBirdIsEvil's Avatar
MyBirdIsEvil MyBirdIsEvil is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Missouri
Posts: 1,720
It's disgusting the amount of posts I see on my local message board for "Christmas Puppies!" or so and so breed of puppies "ready for christmas!" Or Potential owners asking if anyone has any puppies available for christmas.
And then come January or Febuary there's already a ton of posts with people giving away free dogs or trying to sell them with all kinds of excuses why they're not keeping them. Where the hell do they all go anyway? This town only has about 20,000 ppl and I see this happen every single year. They're sure not all going to the pound, and they're sure not all getting homes, so are they just being put down, or what? It's sad.
It's mostly smaller dogs like shih-tzu, pomeranians and yorkies, or designer mutts like morkies (I see posts selling these A LOT), pekapom, shih-poos, etc., so I don't guess them growing too large is the problem, most likely the person doesn't want to take the time trying to housebreak a small dog, or can't deal with their barking and nipping.

Actually, I kind of wonder about the survival rate of puppies in general. We got Walnut from a local pet store (yup, shouldn't have, but that was several years ago so I'm not taking her back ) and oddly enough I know where every single puppy went. There were 4 of them.

Walnut went to us, so there's one that's still alive and functioning normally.
Her brother went to my sister and law and a few months later died from drinking antifreeze or something because they let him roam around outside (which is the fate of most of their dogs unfortunately)
Her other brother went to the owner of the pet store's daughter and ended up being shot and killed because they let him chase and kill their neighbors chickens every single day.
The last male went to someone that my sister in law knows and from what she told me was locked in their basement with no socialization and extremely aggressive. That was a couple of years ago so who knows if it's even still alive.

So, what, is that a normal percentage of dogs from pet stores/bybs, etc.. that goes to a loving family and ends up well cared for? 25%? Ok, so we don't know for sure that Walnut's litter represents dogs in general, but that's still a really sad number.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:23 AM.