Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > Dog health - Ask members * If your pet is vomiting-bleeding-diarrhea etc. Vet time!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old June 14th, 2008, 05:33 AM
Kris Christine Kris Christine is offline
banned user
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Exclamation LYME--Vaccinate or Not?

In response to questions about Lyme disease in dogs and the Lyme vaccine, I would like to share the advice that Dr. Ronald Schultz, Chair of Pathobiological Sciences at the University of Wisconsin School of Veterinary Medicine gave me for my 2 dogs, who both receive(d) (one died in July from a mast cell tumor which developed at a rabies vaccination site) 100+ tick bites a summer.

I was concerned after having contracted Lyme twice myself; however, none of the dogs we have had over 30 years were ever vaccinated against Lyme or ever contracted the disease. After getting it myself, I was reconsidering. Dr. Schultz advised me that there was far more risk associated with the Lyme vaccine than there was with antibiotics to treat the disease if one or both dogs contracted Lyme.

He further explained that if they tested positive for Lyme, but displayed no symptoms, then not to treat them with antibiotics because it indicated that they had been exposed to the disease, but hadn't contracted the disease. However, he said, that if they tested positive for Lyme and had symptoms (lameness, fever, lethargy, etc..), then start treatment. Dr. Schultz elaborated by telling me that in vaccinology, immunology, the point is not to prevent infection, it is to prevent disease. In fact, low-grade infections are introduced to elicit immune responses, which is how vaccination works, by introducing an attenuated (weakened) antigen into the animal's system.

Further, he said that a positive Lyme test in an ASYMPTOMATIC dog merely reflects the fact that the dog has been exposed; positive Lyme test in a dog with SYMPTOMS indicates that the animal has contracted the disease and needs treatment.

Based on his advice, I have chosen to not vaccinate my dog(s) against Lyme. Below are links to a few articles on the subject which may help you in deciding whether or not to vaccinate your dog against Lyme.

Lyme is a “killed” vaccine and is associated with clinically significant adverse reactions. According to the 2003 AAHA Guidelines (Page 16), "...killed vaccines are much more likely to cause hypersensitivity reactions (e.g., immune-mediated disease)." Further, the AAHA task force reports on Page 18 that, "Bacterial vaccines, especially killed whole organism products …..are much more likely to cause adverse reactions than subunit or live bacterial vaccines or MLV vaccines, especially if given topically. Several killed bacterial products are used as immunomodulators/adjuvants. Thus, their presence in a combination vaccine product may enhance or suppress the immune response or may cause an undesired response (e.g., IgE hypersensitivity or a class of antibody that is not protective)."

The Lyme vaccine is also an "adjuvanted" vaccine, as are the Leptospira and Rabies vaccines. "The World Health Organization (WHO) in 1999 classified veterinary vaccine adjuvants as Class III/IV carcinogens with Class IV being the highest risk," IARC Monographs on the Evaluation of Carinogenic Risks to Humans: Volune 74, World Health Organization, International Agency for Research on Cancer, Feb. 23-Mar. 2, 1999, p. 24, 305, 310.

Dr. Alice Wolf, Professor of Small Animal Internal Medicine at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, stated in an address Vaccines of the Present and Future WSAVA 2001 - Vaccines of the Present and Future at the 2001 World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress that Lyme vaccines : "are only partially effective and may cause serious immune-mediated consequences in some dogs that are as serious or more serious than the disease itself.....The most reactive vaccines for dogs include leptospirosis bacterin and Borrelia [Lyme]vaccine .".

Canine Lyme, What's New? Vet Tech: Canine Lyme: What's New?

No Lyme Vaccine for Charlie Nancy Freedman Smith, Maine Today Error

"It is not a scientifically based recommendation to suggest that all dogs in Maine should be vaccinated with Lyme Vaccine. There may be select areas in the state, "hot spots" where infection is very high and vaccination would be indicated, but dogs in most parts of the state would probably not receive benefit and may actually be at risk of adverse reactions if a large scale vaccination program was initiated. Wisconsin has a much higher risk of Lyme than Maine, however at our Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital (VMTH) we have used almost no Lyme vaccine since it was first USDA approved in the early 1990's. What we have found is infection (not disease), in much of Wisconsin, is low (<10% infection). As you know, infection does not mean disease. About 3 to 4% of infected dogs develop disease. In contrast, in Western and Northwestern parts of Wisconsin infection occurs in 60 to 90% of all dogs. In those areas, vaccination is of benefit in reducing clinical disease. ........ Also, vaccinated dogs can develop disease as efficacy of the product is about 60 to 70% in preventing disease, thus antibiotics must be used in vaccinated dogs developing disease, just like it must be used in non-vaccinated diseased dogs. Therefore, in general areas with a low infection rate <10>50%) then the vaccine will be very useful. Thus, I believe it is irresponsible to suggest that all dogs in Maine should be vaccinated . Veterinarians should know, based on diagnoses in their clinic and other clinics in the area (town), how common the disease would be and they should base their judgment to vaccinate on risk, not on a statement that all dogs in Maine need Lyme vaccine!

R.D. Schultz
_______________________________
Ronald D. Schultz, Professor and Chair
Department of Pathobiological Sciences
School of Veterinary Medicine
University of Wisconsin-Madison
2015 Linden Drive West
Madison, WI 53706"

LYME DISEASE: Fact from Fiction by Dr. Allen Schoen
Dr. Schoen–Lyme Disease: Fact from Fiction

"Research at Cornell University veterinary school brings up some suspicion that there may be potential long term side effects of the vaccine, though nothing is certain. These side effects may vary from rheumatoid arthritis and all the major symptoms of lyme disease to acute kidney failure." ...... "Many veterinary schools and major veterinary centers do not recommend the vaccine for the same concern regarding potential side effects. "

"I have seen all the symptoms of Lyme disease in dogs four to eight weeks after the vaccine and when I sent the western blot test to Cornell, it shows no evidence of the disease, only evidence of the dog having been vaccinated, yet the dog shows all the classic symptoms of the disease."
- Dr. Allen Schoen

LYME DISEASE by Dr. R. Staubinger
SiriusDog.com - Lyme Disease

"The Borrelia burgdorferi Bacterin from Fort Dodge Laboratories is currently the only licensed Lyme disease vaccine for dogs. ...... In a limited field study it was concluded that the incidence of disease (4.7 percent in infected, non-vaccinated dogs) was reduced to about one percent. However, the vaccine does not protect from actual infection. ....... We cannot recommend vaccination of dogs in endemic areas with the whole-cell bacterin until questions are resolved about clinical Lyme disease developing in dogs that have been properly vaccinated. "

http://www.angelfire.com/biz/froghol...accBlanco.html

This is a good article that speaks in general regarding the risks associated with vaccines.

In addition a friend attended the Dr. Ron Schultz (he’s the preeminent immunologist who has done much of the duration of immunity research) seminar in March and this is a paraphrase of what he had to say about the Lyme vaccine:

LYME VACCINE - Recommends against, even in New England where 75% of dogs show exposure. Only 1 year DOI. At least 10% false positives. Impossible to really confirm lyme disease. Too many dogs get clinical lyme from the vaccine and it is more likely to cause a worse type of arthritis than the dog would get from lyme disease itself. The vaccine does not prevent infection and really doesn’t prevent the disease either. In Schultz’s opinion: “Lyme disease is a media produced paranoia.” Humanssuffer the devastating effects of lyme much more frequently than dogs. Most dogs will fight on their own. A predisposed dog will get a worse case of lyme if vaccinated than if not vaccinated. In a lab setting, studies show “some” protection. But in actual field studies, the vaccine seems pretty useless. Lyme is easily treated with doxy once clinical signs appear. Lameness/arthritis is generally the first to show up. Only treat if clinical signs of lyme develop. Tests are not reliable since few are adequately trained in reading lab results.


__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
Rabies Shot Killed my Poodle May 28, 2008 Channel 5 News WCVB http://www.thebostonchannel.com:80/n...ss=bos&taf=bos

Duration of Immunity to Canine Vaccines: What We Know and Don't Know, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.cedarbayvet.com/duration_of_immunity.htm

What Everyone Needs to Know about Canine Vaccines, Dr. Ronald Schultz http://www.puliclub.org/CHF/AKC2007C...20Vaccines.htm

World Small Animal Veterinary Association 2007 Vaccine Guidelines http://www.wsava.org/SAC.htm Scroll down to Vaccine Guidelines 2007 (PDF)

The 2003 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are accessible online at http://www.leerburg.com/special_report.htm .

The 2006 American Animal Hospital Association's Canine Vaccine Guidelines are downloadable in PDF format at http://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocumen...s06Revised.pdf .

Veterinarian, Dr. Robert Rogers,has an excellent presentation on veterinary vaccines at http://www.newvaccinationprotocols.com/

October 1, 2002 DVM Newsletter article entitled, AVMA, AAHA to Release Vaccine Positions, http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/a...l.jsp?id=35171

July 1, 2003 DVM Newsletter article entitled, What Do We Tell Our Clients?, Developing thorough plan to educate staff on changing vaccine protocols essential for maintaining solid relationships with clients and ensuring quality care http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/a...l.jsp?id=61696

July 1, 2003, DVM Newsletter article, Developing Common Sense Strategies for Fiscal Responsibility: Using an interactive template to plan service protocol changes http://www.dvmnewsmagazine.com/dvm/a...l.jsp?id=61694

Animal Wellness Magazine Article Vol. 8 Issue 6, How Often Does he REALLY Need A Rabies Shot Animal Wellness Magazine - devoted to natural health in animals

The Rabies Challenge Animal Wise Radio Interview
Listen to Animal Wise (scroll down to The Rabies Challenge 12/9/07)

The Vaccine Challenge Animal Talk Naturally Online Radio Show » The Vaccine Challenge - Show #91

US Declared Canine-Rabies Free -- CDC Announces at Inaugural World Rabies Day Symposium CDC Press Release - September 7, 2007

Rabies Prevention -- United States, 1991 Recommendations of the Immunization Practices Advisory Committee (ACIP), Center for Disease Control's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly March 22, 1991 / 40(RR03);1-19 http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00041987.htm "A fully vaccinated dog or cat is unlikely to become infected with rabies, although rare cases have been reported (48). In a nationwide study of rabies among dogs and cats in 1988, only one dog and two cats that were vaccinated contracted rabies (49). All three of these animals had received only single doses of vaccine; no documented vaccine failures occurred among dogs or cats that had received two vaccinations. "
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old June 14th, 2008, 10:32 AM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
Moderator
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,725
In our part of Wisconsin, we find 100+ ticks on the dogs every outting. Even in the manicured lawn, we find multiple ticks a day on the dogs. We've had multiple cases of Lyme's, and anaplasmosis...so far no Ehrlichia. One of our dogs came with a case of chronic Lyme's (she had never been vaccinated) and needs meds for the flareups and to combat the long-term effects of the disease on her immune system and joints.

IMO Lyme's disease is not a media-induced paranoia. I've known too many people with it and I've seen it in our dogs.

In our case, the vaccine is a godsend. I don't see that we have much choice other than to keep the dogs on doxycycline 100% of the time during warm weather. So there is a place for these vaccines. And everyone has to weigh the pros and cons for themselves.
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old June 14th, 2008, 11:42 AM
Dr Lee's Avatar
Dr Lee Dr Lee is offline
Senior Contributor - Expert
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bay Area California
Posts: 1,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Christine View Post
Dr. Alice Wolf, Professor of Small Animal Internal Medicine at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, stated in an address Vaccines of the Present and Future WSAVA 2001 - Vaccines of the Present and Future at the 2001 World Small Animal Veterinary Association World Congress that Lyme vaccines : "are only partially effective and may cause serious immune-mediated consequences in some dogs that are as serious or more serious than the disease itself.....The most reactive vaccines for dogs include leptospirosis bacterin and Borrelia [Lyme]vaccine .".
Kris,

Thank you for not only posting all this information but also referencing Dr. Alice Wolf. I would encourage everyone to read her lecture which Kris posted a link to. It is important. As far as veterinarians whom I admire, Dr. Alice Wolf is one who definitely makes my top five!

In that lecture Dr Wolf also mentions,

Ninety percent (90%) of human cases of Lyme disease occur in only 100 counties in only eight states. The distribution of canine Borrelia infection mirrors that seen in human beings. Lyme vaccine has absolutely no medically acceptable rationale for use in dogs in non-endemic locales.

In a couple of VIN posts, Dr Wolf mentions that for those pets that are to receive lyme vaccinations should be tested prior to vaccination. Sero Positive dogs will likely receive no benefit from the vaccine. She also recommends the Merial lyme vaccine above others. Here is a quote by Dr Alice Wolf, "From the data I've seen the Merial vaccine makes the most sense since it's supposed to block infection before it starts, not after the organisms are already in the dog." However there is a lot of risk/benefit considerations needed prior to vaccinating any dog with a lyme vaccine. I do carry the Merial lyme vaccine but I cannot think of the last time I vaccinated a dog with one. I talk most of the owners out of it. Unfortunately this controversy gets vets into a lot of trouble as some people will use their lawyers to argue each side of it all. There have been several law suits against progressive vets who avoid some of the controversial vaccines. While the litigation usually goes no where, the cost of litigation in both money and stress is considerable. I know many vets that would just rather vaccine the dog and if there is a problem - encourage the clients to sue the vaccine company instead of them. It is easier the being sued for not vaccinating. Crazy world huh?!

Again, great post Kris.
__________________
Christopher A. Lee, D.V.M., C.V.L.S.
Promoting surgical options and pet comfort through the use of lasers.
www.acerlux.com
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old June 14th, 2008, 11:50 AM
Dr Lee's Avatar
Dr Lee Dr Lee is offline
Senior Contributor - Expert
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bay Area California
Posts: 1,058
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post
So there is a place for these vaccines. And everyone has to weigh the pros and cons for themselves.
Yes there is. My hope for the future is a system of vaccinating individuals and not populations. Vaccination needs to be based upon signalment, history, health status, demographic exposure and life style.

I also believe that further vaccines need to be made! There is a new vaccine against melanomas for dogs. I hope there will be vaccines available for other tick diseases, valley fever and any other infectious diseases. As long as we only vaccinate those that need it.

Hazelpackrun, if the vaccines are protecting your pets, I would not suggest stopping them by any means. This is why I do carry the vaccine. In my situation, the former owner of the practice was vaccinating couch potato lap dogs with lyme vaccine when we do not have the tick in this valley. He did it to 'improve the bottom line". So I do a lot of discontinuing of lyme vaccines. If I was in your neck of the woods, I may be doing the opposite!
__________________
Christopher A. Lee, D.V.M., C.V.L.S.
Promoting surgical options and pet comfort through the use of lasers.
www.acerlux.com
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old June 15th, 2008, 09:25 AM
Kris Christine Kris Christine is offline
banned user
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 27
Hazelrunpack,

What is important is that dog owners make informed vaccine choices for their animals based on weighing the risk/benefit.

Unfortunately, there aren't as many veterinarians like Dr. Lee here in the U.S. giving pet owners adequate, if any, disclosure in order for them to make an informed choice. That is why I post information with links to data that dog owners can access for themselves.

As Dr. Lee does, my homeopathic/holistic DVM uses Merial vaccines.

Kris
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old June 15th, 2008, 09:30 AM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
Moderator
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Christine View Post
What is important is that dog owners make informed vaccine choices for their animals based on weighing the risk/benefit.
My point exactly.
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 10.00%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:14 AM.