Cat has Eosinophilic Granuloma Complex - Answered by Dr. Lee

[Dracko]

Ginkgo is only 1 1/2 years old but when I got her at 6 months she had these lesions on her neck. It reminded me of an eczema type skin irritation. Over time it went away though I did notice she had them on the backs of her legs, too. She ignored them so I didn't think too much of it.

The other day she was favoring a paw. Today I took her in and they sedated her so they could go in and take a good look at it. There was infection and they cleaned it out. After telling the vet about her other "symptoms" and showing her the small area still on the back of her leg the vet said it was definitely EGC and that the paw may or may not be connected. There was no wound on the paw or pads so it leads her to believe it is connected and part of the inflammatory skin disease.

The usual treatment is steroids and/or antibiotics. There is no way I'm going to subject her to life of that. This is already an immune system disorder and of course steroids also depress the immunity over time. My intention is to speak to a homeopathic vet we have in another city but wondering if anyone else on here has received that diagnosis for their animal. Currently I would say it doesn't require treatment but I'd like to be preventative and build up her immune system.

Allergies can be a cause of this (or a supposed cause) and maybe that's why her symptoms have cleared up so much since I got her. Her dry food is EVO and on top of that she eats Urban Carnivore (raw food).

If anyone has any suggestions, I'm all ears....

[Amanda_girl]

I think you just helped diagnose my cat! My cat has had this irritated itchy spot, where his hair comes out, and its almost scab like, all over his neck, and under his chin. We took him to the vet awhile ago, and they had no answer for me.

After you mentioned the condition, I looked it up and found some pictures that make me think that my cat must have this.

I agree with you though, my cat has been through a lot of tough stuff, and I just don't want to subject him to any more medication that might make him weaker or less healthy in other ways.

After reading some articles, they mention its possibly a flea or food allergy. I'll check with the vet again now that I know what this condition is. I'd like to be able to get rid of this skin problem in a natural way.

Let me know if you find any good remedies!

Thanks!

[krdahmer]

My Fagan has something like this, his though is definitely an allergy to flea bites and corn/chicken. Other than keeping these triggers as far away from him as possible, I have been using some holistic remedies recommended by my vet. Traumeel speeds the healing of the skin, PBUR and SK (Thompson's holistic remedies) work on helaing the skin as well, and Hypericum and rescue remedy work to calm the cat and lesson the damage they do by biting and licking.

And just IMO, I'm sure your cat would rather get to live a longer life on the meds, with you, than not. Talk to the vet about the holistics they can be very effective, especially in combination with the shots, I have found that the holistic meds make the effects of the shots last longer and therefor I need fewer and fewer shots.

All the best to you and your kitty!

[Dracko]

Amanda, yes your cat's lesions sounds like what Ginkgo has when I got her. Sort of scabbed over. I remember wondering if someone had done something to her before I got her. Now I realize what it was. I know they were itchy for her and she tried to lick her neck, but not obessively.

krdahmer, thanks for your input. I would most certainly give her the medication rather than shorten her life but I can't see reaching for a medication that will compromise her immune system when the problem isn't serious at this point and other safer preventative measure can be taken. I work in the natural health industry and always choose the natural choice unless there is no other or the allopathic one appears to be the better one.

Right now I'm giving Ginkgo the antibiotics the vet prescribed as her paw was pretty badly infected. Hate to take chances. But I am also being responsible and giving her probiotics with her food. While I prefer people to choose a dietary change or herbs/homeopathics, giving them prescribed medication is much better than doing NOTHING.

I'm happy to know what the lesions were on Ginkgo so I can't understand what to do about them now and watch for their appearance. I'm hoping the foods I give her (EVO and raw) will avoid the triggers for the lesions. I am familiar with the cream you suggested as well as the homeopathic remedies, krdahmer and will keep them in mind when I am putting together a program for Ginkgo. Tx

[krdahmer]

Oh and I'm sure you may have already heard this from the vet, but it turns out that one of the bigger triggers for these kinds of skin issues besides flea bites, is chicken! Which I have found is in like 99% of all foods... dry and wet and raw alike. So that may be another thing you might want to try cutting out.

[Dracko]

Actually, no my vet didn't tell me that. Just said "food allergies" in general. Guess I'll have to start checking out the dry food labels. I'm assuming EVO contains it. The raw food I give her never has chicken as none of my animals will eat the raw chicken. It's always beef, bison, elk, etc...

I have to say, though, that her neck hasn't had a lesion on it for months and months. The only one that is present right now is on the back of one leg in a small area. It was all the way down both legs when I first discovered them. Initially I thought maybe when she was a kitten someone had cut her and they were scars. Then I realized there were scabs on them.

[krdahmer]

Ya Fagan goes sometimes for months and months with no problems, then all of a sudden I catch him going at his boobie. (He starts with the boob then does both hind legs.) So far I've been able to relate it to a flea bite, moving, and a change in food so we are good now, I'm gonna try to keep everything exactly the same!

[Dr Lee]

Sounds like you guys are doing your homework

One note on the steroid. While I am not a steroid fan, with EGC the steroid injection can in some cases permanently resolve the situation. I am treating a cat with that right now. My protocol, besides allergy treatement and food change, is depo-medrol injections. We are going to use one to three injections only. If that doesn't work, then we will use other options. Depo-medrol is not my favorite drug, and does present risks for diabetes, kidney disease, etc... however when employing them on a single or limited basis, the benefits may outweight the risks.

The following an excerpt from Wendy Brooks D.V.M., D.A.B.V.P. from a EGC client handout, "In most cases the eosinophilic granuloma responds to cortisone derivatives though often an aggressive regimen must be used. Typically an injection of long acting corticosteroid (such as Depomedrol) is given every 2 weeks until the lesion is gone or for three injections whichever comes first.

Most eosinophilic granulomas resolve with one injection but some are refractory and will not resolve until antibiotics are used. Some are more refractory still and require more exotic treatments."




If holistic measures are successful, please let me know. Anything that may be useful for a patient as well as reduce steroid use is always a good thing.

Good luck

[krdahmer]

Every two weeks? My vet said it was not recommended to give them that close together, we waited 3-4 weeks between the two shots this round.

And if it is a recurring thing like with Fagan where he gets it whenever he happens to be irritated by an allergen (even though I do my best to avoid them for him), is it ok to treat it every time with the depomedrol? We always try the holistics first, but once he gets it started it is very very hard to stop him from making it worse.

[Dr Lee]

The basic tenant with steroids is, "use as much as is needed and as LITTLE as possible!"

So every two weeks? Well that is a judgement call for you and your veterinarian. There are some EGC that are so severe, that yes I think every 2 weeks is justified. If the signs resolve with one injection, then inject no more. If your veterinarian recommends every 3-4 weeks, then I would go with that.

Treating with depo-medrol whenever he gets them may be an issue depending up the frequency. I don't like injecting depomedrol more than 2-3 times a year. Hopefully once resolved, it will not recur. That would be ideal.

[Dracko]

Thank you for the input, Dr. Lee. I like that kind of advice whereby medication is used but limited. If it meant short term like that, I would be much more apt to try it if Ginkgo's symptoms became troublesome. I always appreciate it when vets understand that kind of thinking and don't just assume we all think nothing of giving our pet a drug to "cure" them. I am not anti-prescribed medication, just prefer it to be used when something like nutritional changes are first looked at. Too many pet owns treat their pets like themselves and would prefer the "quick fix", imo.

[krdahmer]

Ya I really don't like him having to get the shots, especially because they seem to weaken his knee and make him vulnerable to an injury.

Right now I am using a holistic treatment in a preventative manner. Not as frequently as when he has the skin irritation but hopefully enough to stop it before it starts. And we are on an 8 month Revolution cycle to make sure the house is ok (I must have missed a few fleas during my cleaning week before we moved in). It's putting a big dent in the pocket book but if it avoids all the vet trips for Fagan, it's worth it!

Thanks for the advice Dr. Lee, it's always nice to have more than one opinion.

[Dracko]

I'll have to keep the flea thing in mind but I've never encountered even 1 with regards to my pets. Don't you see them flying around or the animal itching?

[krdahmer]

Actually no, sometimes you can see no signs whatsoever. This last attack, I had even sprayed the house with VetChem spray before we moved in, then found a few on Palomine after we had a flood in the basement (they may have been eggs behind the walls/baseboards). I have never not even once seen a flea on Fagan since he was 4 weeks old even though I flea comb him often to be sure (the kittens all had them when I took them in). His allergy is so bad it can be just one single bite from a flea brought in on someone else's clothing. There are no active fleas (or dead ones cause I have become a clean freak too.... I loathe the little buggers!) in my house but you can't really control what others might bring in on their clothes.

And so far my guests haven't been receptive to the idea of being sprayed for fleas at the door....

[Amanda_girl]

Thanks everyone for all of your responses and advice. I'm so glad I know what this is now.

The vet had no idea what it was before, so I'm going to the office with all of this information printed off plus more!

Thanks again!

Amanda

[LacyAdrienne]

Well i am dealing with something similar with my youngest cat, Bella. She first had a little growth that became infected on her one little 'toe pad'. This was treated with a cortisone shot (i beleive) and some antiseptic cleaner that I was sent home with to clean it out daily. It cleared up nicely! But now a few months later the sore on the paw, on a different paw, has returned.. i have been cleaning it myself and it keeps clearing up and moving to another place on the same paw and when that clears up it appears elsewhere on this paw (not the paw that was originally vet treated). Now just last week I saw a little bump on her bottom lip that gradually got larger. Now I finally think i found out what the problem is!! Based on what i have found online i think its ECG and am wondering if i should do a food change before I make another expensive vet trip.... Any suggestions?

[Dracko]

I have Ginkgo on Orijen and she has very little symptoms now. Just on the back of one leg. I've seen on her where her lip will get big and had the infected paw problem. Lately things have seemed good, though. I do check her body regularly to stay on top of any problems and have my things stay good.

[abemmy]

After reading all the posts with regards to egc I am pretty sure this is what my Abby has. My particular concern is the fact that I just found out the Abby has diabetes. She is in the middle of taking Baytril, she has about 5 more days to go and she is still limping. Does anyone have the same situation? Abby is 8 years old and I am not sure how to proceed. I feed her Iam's weight loss formula dry cat food and Iams wet food. She weights 17 lbs. and for the life of me can't understand why she isn't losing weight. I do have another cat, Emma and a pet conure, Binky. Could Abby's abcesses be from a bird?

I am going to be talking to my vet on Monday to see how we should proceed.

[phoozles]

I wish could help you regarding your kitty's skin problem, but I can answer you one thing - you said your cat is 17 lbs and is on Iams weight loss and hasn't lost any weight, and I can tell you why.

The same thing was happening in my household - had an 8 year old cat on Iams for a year, feeding as per directions on the bag, and he lost maybe an ounce. Turns out Iams weight loss (or any weight loss foods) are the worst possible foods you can give your cat - because while they lower the fat, they raise the carbs, which your cat can't process.

I've had Jake (my 8 year old) on canned grain free Wellness (either Turkey or Chicken) for a month and a half, and he's already lost at least a pound (haven't officially weighed him, but you can definitely see the difference).
I give him 4/5ths of a can a day (I split the can into 5 and feed him four times a day, leaving the last portion for the next day), and it's working well!

[Love4himies]

Dracko,

How is your kitty doing?

My daughter's cat may have the same thing, she has just changed her food to Orijen and Wellness and was wondering if you have had success in keeping this at bay by changing Ginkgo's food.

She will be taking her kitty to the vet to confirm her diagnosis on her next day off.

[Love4himies]

Hi sweetie, nice to see you joined. Check out the food forums to find out about better cat nutrition.

By the way, krazy4kittens is my daughter.

[Dracko]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

Dracko,

How is your kitty doing?

My daughter's cat may have the same thing, she has just changed her food to Orijen and Wellness and was wondering if you have had success in keeping this at bay by changing Ginkgo's food.

She will be taking her kitty to the vet to confirm her diagnosis on her next day off.

Ginkgo is doing so well actually. When I got her I put her on EVO. That helped with the lesions but only moderately. It seems the Orijen has been the food for her. The vet suggested I find a food that doesn't cause any inflammation, etc for her and this seems to be it. There's been no swelling of her lip or anything else either for months. I don't think it is a coincidence as she always had lesions of some sort from the time I got her until the switch. I have also choosen not to immunize her in any way. While she did get the typically ones they do when they are Humane Society kittens I won't be doing any more as I don't think her autoimmune system would do well with them. Given she is an indoor cat and I prefer to use natural therapies as tx for my cats, I feel more comfortable taking this route rather than forcing her body to deal with something that might set off her condition.

The last lesion type things to go away on her were the ones on her hamstring area. I used to feel around there when she would lay with me to check it out. She hated me touching it so their must have obviously been some pain associated with them. Now I can't feel any raised lesions and she will let me touch that area all I want while she's laying around.

[Love4himies]

Thanks, Dracko, I am sure my daughter will let you know what the vet says about her Ginger.

[Love4himies]

Well, I guess my daughter did not update. Her computer is not working very well.

Ginger went to the vet last week and the vet confirmed she has EGC and was giving a steriod shot.

The swelling on the cat's mouth has gone down and krazy4kittens is very pleased so far with the results. Ginger goes back end of Jan for another shot and then it is wait to see if the food change from Iams Weight Control to Orijen and Wellness canned will work. Vet agreed these are two good foods but may want to stay away from chicken & beef proteins (yay for the vet recognizing these two foods ) so k4k has purchased some Wellness that does not have those two proteins.

[Winston]

HI there I have to jump in on this one....My moms cat has been diagnosed for Rodent Lip as well...now the vet indicated the food allergy issue and we tried one of the vet foods for a short time...Now he eats Orijen and loves it.

The vets diagnosis was that he could be given a shot but it would most likely bring on diabetes. So with my mom being elderly she could not care for her cat if she had to give it needles..So out of fear we chose another treatment the vet recommended a series of prednisone..Well he has been on it for months now..His pads of his feet cleared up well but his mouth is bad.

My question is did anyone else's vet mention the onset of diabetes.???? ..because I am thinking that we may have to just try the shot? the prednisone cannot be good for him after such a long time??

Cindy

[Love4himies]

Originally Posted by Winston

HI there I have to jump in on this one....My moms cat has been diagnosed for Rodent Lip as well...now the vet indicated the food allergy issue and we tried one of the vet foods for a short time...Now he eats Orijen and loves it.

The vets diagnosis was that he could be given a shot but it would most likely bring on diabetes. So with my mom being elderly she could not care for her cat if she had to give it needles..So out of fear we chose another treatment the vet recommended a series of prednisone..Well he has been on it for months now..His pads of his feet cleared up well but his mouth is bad.

My question is did anyone else's vet mention the onset of diabetes.???? ..because I am thinking that we may have to just try the shot? the prednisone cannot be good for him after such a long time??

Cindy

Do you know what the other shot was? I thought Pred was the choice steroid to control the immune system from reacting.

[Winston]

It was called Depomedrone...

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by Winston

It was called Depomedrone...

Do you mean Depo-Medrol? It's also a steriod like prednisone, and all steriods have the potential to cause diabetes. It's more likely with the Depo shot because it's a large amount of steroid all at once. You can't control or fine-tune the dose once it's in the cat's system, whereas with the pred pills, it can be more precisely adjusted to the symptoms. But long-term use of pred isn't ideal either. Here's some info:

Potential Adverse Effects of Inappropriate (potency, dose, route of administration, frequency and/or duration) Corticosteroid Therapy

• increased thirst (and in frequency of urination)
  
• suppression of the immune system: increased incidence of infections including skin, urinary tract, respiratory tract
  
• poor wound healing, tendon, ligament and joint abnormalities
  
• dull/dry hair coat or hair loss, dry, thin skin that bruises readily
  
• decreased muscle mass and tone...(weakened abdominal muscles may result in a "pendulous [pot-belly] abdomen"); muscle pain, stiff gait, rigid limbs (may mimic a hip or other joint disease)
  
• panting
  
• vomiting and/or bloody diarrhea, ulcers due to:
  
  1. a. decrease production of protective gastointestinal tract lining
     
  2. increased irritation from stomach acid secretion
• enlarged liver/impaired liver function
  
• thromboembolus (inappropriate blood clot...can suddently impair blood flow to any organ system with potentially dire consequences)
  
• hypertension (elevated blood pressure)
  
• diabetes
  
• pancreatitis
  
• osteoporosis
  
• changes in genital / reproductive organs
  
• hypothyroidism
  
• behavioral abnormalities including depression, aggression/ rage, mania, hyperactivity

The above adverse affects are most likely with:

• excessive dose, frequency or duration of treatment with any corticosteroid
  
• long-acting injectable (repository) corticosteroid treament (duration of effect is not always predictable)
  
• frequent high or intermediate potency injectable, oral or topical corticosteroid preparations (this means that glucocorticoids in topical medication for eyes, ears or skin are also absorbed into the bloodstream and can produce any or all of the undesirable effects described above).

Hate to say it (I know I'm sounding like a broken record), but even though your mom's cat may like Orijen, and it's a better dry than some of the others out there, it's still overprocessed and really not the best option for any cat. Especially one with potential allergy issues. If at all possible, I'd advise finding a simple canned food with one protein source such as By Nature Organics or Innova Evo 95% meat (the latter also has novel protein sources like duck and venison). Ditch the dry.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by Krazy4Kittens

I have her on single protein Natural Balance duck and green pea hard food...Wellness beef and salmon soft food, and Organics turkey. I was trying to eliminate chicken, and grains, because chicken is the most popular allergy for cats who have EG.

Beef and fish are also common cat allergies, so I think your idea to try the novel protein is a good one. Again, I'm really not a fan of dry food, so even though the Natural Balance is grain-free, it would still be a good idea to eliminate that as a variable. Canned Innova EVO 95% duck or venison are good novel protein options with minimal ingredients.

[sugarcatmom]

Originally Posted by Krazy4Kittens

Hmm...I will look for this Innova, though I feel like I have scoured the aisles of the pet health food store as best I can, and don't recall seeing that.

Here's the store locator for Innova: http://www.naturapet.com/where-to-buy/default.asp Looks like there are a couple places in Kingston that might have it (assuming you're in Kingston, ON and not Kingston, Jamaica ). If it's not in stock, perhaps they can order some for you (although it would be preferable to find out if your cat liked it first before ordering a whole case).

Originally Posted by Krazy4Kittens

Natural balance makes a soft version of the duck and green pea, would that be a good alternative if I can't find the Innova?

It would at least be better than the dry version of NB. I think there's also a Venison and Green Pea NB canned, if I'm not mistaken. Canned Nature's Variety Instinct in Lamb, Venison, Duck or Rabbit is another one you could look for: http://www.naturesvariety.com/conten...1DF2JmYh11DFD9

Good luck with your quest!