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  #31  
Old January 19th, 2011, 02:10 PM
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Thanks she will have no choice on Thursday! In a way I hope they find something in the urine because if there is no infection I dont know what I am going to do with her??? I cant have her continually peeing all over the house!
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  #32  
Old January 19th, 2011, 05:34 PM
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Good luck tomorrow, Winston!
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  #33  
Old January 21st, 2011, 06:14 AM
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Well my little pee princess stayed at the vets for the day! She was none to happy with me! she could have come home @ 10:30 am but they didnt think anyone was home until after work?? I told them next time to call ??

They sent the sample out for Culture and Sensitivity and I should now the rest of the results sometime today.

I am curious though? Tabitha came home and we watched her go to the water bowl 16 times for a drink within the 1st hour she was home?? We counted because she kept going for a drink, then she would walk away or out of the room and then go back in a drink some more?? I am guessing she was dehydrated?? but why? my only guess is they didnt give her anything to drink all day or she wouldnt drink? she seems back to her royal princess self this morning.

Thanks again for all the well wishes I will update later when the results are in?

Cindy
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
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  #34  
Old January 21st, 2011, 04:10 PM
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Well Tabitha has a large amount of blood in her urine...so she is back on Orbax for 30 days and we will wait for the culture and sensitivity to come back next week. I am a little nervous now waiting to see her kidney function?? It wasnt great in Sept so I hope its not worse now??
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
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  #35  
Old January 21st, 2011, 05:07 PM
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Well Winston,at least you got some sort of answer,I don't know what Orbax is or what it does,but hopefully it will work and there is no kidney-problems.
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  #36  
Old January 21st, 2011, 05:24 PM
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Winston, I hope you at least get an answer soon. Could she just have a UTI?

Chico, Orbax is an antibiotic. I've had to give it to Oksana before when she's had her cystitis issue. My vet told me it's better because it kills a broader range of bacteria.
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  #37  
Old January 21st, 2011, 07:48 PM
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Your right AG! and it is pretty expensive. Anything for my baby!

Chico Tabitha has kidney insufficiency already and she also has idiopathic cystitus which is a bladder/kidney issue anyway.

My worry this time is its blood and no actual infection?? last time she had e-coli and they prescribed the orbax for that. We chose the same one because it did not give her diarrea. I guess that is a common side effect of it?? IT also as AG mentioned kills a broader range of infections.

She hasnt pee'd anywhere else since I keep the door closed to that room now?? but regardless there are issues that need to be dealt with so I am glad I took her in regardless. Some would have assumed it to be behavioural..
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
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  #38  
Old January 21st, 2011, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston View Post
Your right AG! and it is pretty expensive. Anything for my baby!

Chico Tabitha has kidney insufficiency already and she also has idiopathic cystitus which is a bladder/kidney issue anyway.

My worry this time is its blood and no actual infection?? last time she had e-coli and they prescribed the orbax for that. We chose the same one because it did not give her diarrea. I guess that is a common side effect of it?? IT also as AG mentioned kills a broader range of infections.

She hasnt pee'd anywhere else since I keep the door closed to that room now?? but regardless there are issues that need to be dealt with so I am glad I took her in regardless. Some would have assumed it to be behavioural..
Yeah, it is very expensive, but I like using it over the others. When I have given it to Oksana, I've noticed she starts to improve faster.

Oksana also has Idiopathic cystitis. I've got her on an Amitriptyline cream. It's an anti-anxiety drug. It has a few side-effects, but I've never noticed any in Oksana. And there is also some question about how it affects the liver, but my vet said the amount she gets isn't anything that will cause an issue.

I've had her on this for several months and thankfully, she's not had any recurrence in a long time. I can't remember if you had said in the past if you've spoken to your vet about giving Tabitha anything.
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  #39  
Old January 21st, 2011, 08:31 PM
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I have not discussed it with this vet. Basically because previous her pee incidents were minimal. However she is aging and things are happening. We will need to see what affects it may have on her. I will ask the vet what they think??

Yes I noticed the same thing with the Orbax it did work quick.

I am familiar with Amitryptaline cause I take it for fibermyalga and it works pretty good....
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
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  #40  
Old January 21st, 2011, 10:56 PM
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More worries, eh? But it was a good thing you took her in when you did.

they can find a protocol that keeps her healthy now!

Sending along some for a quick recovery!
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  #41  
Old January 22nd, 2011, 12:38 AM
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I'm hoping whatever it is, the antibiotics will clear it up fast . Gentle hugs for Tabitha from me please.
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  #42  
Old January 22nd, 2011, 11:21 PM
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Is the Orbax working yet?
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  #43  
Old January 23rd, 2011, 05:54 AM
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I think it is Hazel we have been pee free for a few days! but then again I am locking the door to the room she frequented!
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
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  #44  
Old January 23rd, 2011, 07:24 PM
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I hope you've got the problem licked now!
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  #45  
Old February 1st, 2011, 01:20 PM
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Well the Culture and Sensitivity are back and Tabitha has ECOLI again. I am a tad frustrated because thats what she had in Aug/Sept. The vet is going to extend the round of Orbax that she is on to 6 weeks instead of 4 weeks.

They also want to pulsate her with the antibiotics...basically they explained it to me as they want me to give her a round of antibiotics monthly. It may be 3 for 3 days and then off for 3 days or it may be 1 week on 3 weeks off they are not 100% sure yet.

They indicated that because she suffers from a kidney insufficency that it is easier for her to contract it.

My concern about the antibiotics is "will she get immune to them" because we will be giving it to her all the time? I wish I could figure out exactly how she got it???
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
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  #46  
Old February 1st, 2011, 01:39 PM
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Winston, will something like Lysine help her?
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  #47  
Old February 1st, 2011, 01:47 PM
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Not sure AG I have PM'd Growler hoping she knows about it?
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
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  #48  
Old February 1st, 2011, 02:01 PM
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L-lysine won't help, but supplementing her wet food with 1/8 to 1/4 tsp D-mannose might. Also colloidal silver can be effective against e. coli. I know you were using these at one point, do you still have any in stock?
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  #49  
Old February 1st, 2011, 02:24 PM
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Sorry to hear Tabitha has e-coli again, but at least you know what it is. All the best in her treatment.
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Old February 1st, 2011, 02:53 PM
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SCM I do have the D mannose and silver from Bomber!
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
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  #51  
Old February 1st, 2011, 08:37 PM
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Aw Winston, I'm so sorry to hear about Tabitha ......I hope the AB's and SCM's suggestions are able to clear it up.
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  #52  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 03:42 AM
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Unfortuately I do know a bit about e coli bacterial infections - Duffy had a re-occurring infection Hers was a quite high count - the vet, homeopath & I were concerned, because of her having CRF, about it becoming a kidney infection luckily however it never traveled up from the urinary tract, hers also wasn't an actual bladder infection.

E coli is one of the most common bacterial infections in cats, e coli is already normally present in cats(dogs/human etc) large intestine & bowels & is one of the most common causes of feline UTIs.

Bacterial infections can cause diarreah etc, most common causes of infection are:
- infected dry food (either present at packaging or from growth by adding water/milk to dry food & letting it sit)
- infected raw/undercooked meat fed (obviously not all raw food has high/problematic bacteria)
- litterbox not cleaned thoroughly (cat steps in poop & then licks clean feet)
- dirty blankets etc not washed
- people not washing hands after handling strange animals, kids, food (not just meat but fruit/veggies can also have bacterial counts)
- people not washing hand after using the washroom/cleaning the litterbox
- diarreah not fully cleaned from the cats butt fur can also cause infection or re-infection either from licking or physical contact w/external urethral sphincter
- drinking/bathing in infected water
- Bacteria can also travel from the gut through to the blood stream which is then filtered, cleaned by the kidneys & dumped into the bladder for expelling & can set there.

Many antibiotic (Ab) treatment protocols are 10-14 days & test about 4 days before ending the Abs, even if this test shows negative results while still on Abs, you could still have a re-infection within a few days. E coli can take as little as 24 hours to incubate & multiply causing initial infection or reinfection.

If it gets a "foothold" either in the bladder or urinary tract it needs treatment immediately, sometimes if the antibiotics are stopped too soon (which is why they always say even if feeling better finish the prescription) it will re-establish from a tiny portion not yet killed, or there was some hidden in a crevice in the bladder/u-tract walls.

For cats with weakened immune systems, organ damage (kidneys/pancreas/liver etc), or reoccurances some vets will use a longer Ab protocol 3-4 or even 6-8 weeks, esp for kidney cats if there is risk of kidney infection (pyelonephritis).

The culture & sensitivity from the UA will tell which Abs this strain of e coli responds to, usually there are several to choose from & the vet will decide which to try. One of the most popular is a combo of two Amoxicillin & Clavulanic Acid commonly known as Clavamox - the vet formula is called ClavaSeptin, Clavamox has a wide safety margin meaning it is safe & can be used on kidney/geriatric/young patients etc. Whereas some Abs have been shown to be toxic to the kidneys, and some are also showing resistance to the bacteria they are supposed to fight & probably shouldn't be used or at least used in a longer duration/higher dose etc.

**Tabitha's case is different from Duffy's for a couple of reasons (T - cystitis/bladder infections, D - Toxin poisoning/CRF/hx of occasional euthyroid ss & low lymphocytes/IBD/Lymphoma) so her tests/responses will differ**

Duffy's case is not typical because she was also trying to fight off the start of lymphoma as well as managing CRF at the same time. Her 1st e coli infection was treated with human liquid clavamox - prescription to the pharmacy, c&s tested neg 4 days before the end of the script. When tested 3 weeks after the Ab she was still/re-infected - this test also stated "urinary inflammation with sepsis". This 2nd infection we treated with a homeopathic nosode & a homeopathic remedy, same thing seemed fine (no test while treated), so off it & tested 1 week later - still/re-infected. The 3rd time we used the vet formula ClavaSeptin she was 10 days into the script when I let her go, the Abs were helping a bit but the combination of a sepsis weakened immune system, kidney failure & lymphoma was too much.

(Sepsis can be an extremely serious condition, it's a whole body inflammatory state generally caused by bacterial infection and if there is any pre-existing condition to weaken the immune system, such as Duffy's kidney failure, mild IBD & the begining formation of lymphoma, it will take hold & be extremely difficult to fight. In an otherwise healthy individual it may not be too serious but needs treatment right away.)


As for Tabitha's current treatment protocol have you spoken to the vet about different Ab options? What were the other options listing on the c&s? Sometimes when 1 doesn't do the trick trying another just might as it may have a different spectrum that it covers.

A longer protocol is a good idea, as I've mentioned above especially with a re-occurance.

Pulsing the Ab (can also be done with certain supplements) basically stimulates the body's immune system into working at responding to repeated but not continuous actions. Less likely for her system to become immune to them this way.

If a continuous course of incorrect Ab is used and the bacteria is not erradicated it can lull the immune system into low response state & once the Abs are done any hint of bacteria can knock it down if it's not fully re-charged to normal.

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  #53  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 12:37 PM
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Growler you are so awesome!! Thank you for everything you have taken the time to write up! I so appreciate it.

I also received an additional call from the vet as I had some concerns. Funny Growler gave me all the answers before the vet called me back! !

Basically I couldnt figure out where it was coming from but I understand now.

They indicated that Tabitha's C&S they were able to grow the bacteria and that the Orbax antibiotic showed to be the best one to nip it in the bud!

So we are going 2 extra weeks of AB and then pulsating her to help with the infection.

Tabitha does have kidney issues so thats likely why we are seeing it again. They told me her Urine Specific Gravity was not good in the C&S and thats why they think that she is having trouble.,

I am going to take some proactive steps anyway. I will be replacing all the litter boxes, I am going to bleach the area. She doesnt have a bed per say of her own that she will sleep on but I do have some blankets that I use for her so I will be sure to stay on top of those. I dont know if I should attempt a bath or not but I will have to see!

Thanks again Growler!

Cindy
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
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  #54  
Old February 2nd, 2011, 01:02 PM
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 02:30 PM
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I wouldn't stress yourself out trying to keep everything clean and sterilized, cause that would be pretty much impossible. E coli is always present, even in healthy animals. The reason it becomes a problem in cats with kidney insufficiency (or diabetes or hyperthyroid, etc) is because they have dilute urine, which is a much more hospitable environment for bacteria to flourish, rather than a normal cat's highly concentrated urine. That's why true urinary tract infections are actually quite rare in cats under 10 yrs old (contrary to popular belief), but become much more common in older cats, as a secondary symptom of some other primary health issue.

While Tabbitha is on antibiotics, it would be a really good idea to get some probiotics to help rebalance her intestinal flora that will be wiped out. And do try the D-Mannose, especially for long-term maintanence. It binds to E. Coli and prevents it from attaching to the lining of the bladder and urinary tract, without affecting the healthy bacteria in the cat's digestive tract.
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 02:39 PM
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SCM you described exactly how the vet described it. I guess I was worried that it is something I may have done by not cleaning out the litter box properly. I googled ecoli in cats and they indicated it was from uncleanliness in the litter box etc. The vet said no not likely but I started to think they were trying to be polite!

Here is my concern about the d-mannose and silver....I think I mentioned this at one point but Tabitha hardly eats anything. I throw more food out in the garbage than she actually eats. I start off with a teaspoon in the morning! yes only a teaspoon because she will only eat maybe if I am lucky half of that. I do this for her whenever she wants it..she will cry for me to come in the kitchen and give it to her fresh...but if I leave it in her dish she will not eat it?? so back to my concern...how much of the d-mannose and silver can I put in a teaspoon of food?

I am fortunate that I have figured out a tricky way to pill her with the Orbax ad that is working so far??? but the other I have no clue??
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"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 05:17 PM
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Aww Winston,I Tabitha will be ok,it's such a worry,but you have gotten some great advice
I say,Thank Dog for Growler and SCM,they are both so very helpful
for little Tabitha and you
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Old February 2nd, 2011, 08:09 PM
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sugarcatmom sugarcatmom is offline
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Location: Calgary, AB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston View Post
SCM you described exactly how the vet described it. I guess I was worried that it is something I may have done by not cleaning out the litter box properly.
Oh gosh no. Even if you bought a brand new litter box every single day, that wouldn't necessarily prevent further UTIs from occurring (although it is a good idea to get a new box about once a year, but that has more to do with retained odours than anything else).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston View Post
so back to my concern...how much of the d-mannose and silver can I put in a teaspoon of food?
How about, instead of putting it in her regular food, you find some sort of treat that she really likes and mix in the D-mannose (which has a slightly sweet flavour that most cats don't have a problem with). Has she ever had plain chicken baby food? Does she like yogurt or butter or salmon juice? Plain vanilla ice cream? Since you only need to give a very small amount (1/8 tsp twice a day to start), it shouldn't be too hard to get some in her. Easier than the antibiotics!

As for the silver, that has virtually no flavour and should be very easy to mix in her wet food or put a dropper-ful in her water dish (although she'll get more of it if it's in her food).

Cats typically don't have a problem with probiotics either, which tend to have a mild milky taste. If you get a high potency one like Natural Factor's Ultimate Multi or MegaFood's Megaflora, then the amount you use is so miniscule (a wee pinch a couple times a day) that it's just highly unlikely they could even detect it. The Megaflora one might also help remove some of the toxin buildup due to the renal insufficiency, as it contains the same strains of bacteria as the way overpriced Azodyl.

Good luck!
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