Pros and Cons/ problems with breeding.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Love4himies

You did absolutely nothing to offend me I just really feel strongly about breeding while dogs and cats are being euthanized.

Me too. But I also have to look at the dogs that are being bred for seeing eye dogs, police work, etc. We have a gentleman who trains these pups for seeing eye dogs come into the store every day with the current pup he is raising. He has one for 18 months and then gets another one when the pup goes on to his working home. He always gets the pups from the same breeder. Those are the breeders I feel should be allowed to have one litter a year (or two).

[annika]

Interesting information everyone, thanks! I have been thinking about breeding, and this gives me a good idea of what I should expect or what I should keep in mind. I can see that it is not an easy task, you have to be very dedicated!

[14+kitties]

I thought I would add this one to the other articles because of another thread where some questions were being asked. Good info here.

http://www.breedsmartpartners.com/br...P&articleID=54


Do Aging Female Dogs Experience Menopause?

By Jocelynn Jacobs, DVM

Dr. Jacobs is a veterinarian, breeder, and exhibitor of Alaskan Malamutes. She has a breeder- referral practice where she works with breeders and owners of performance dogs.

I’m often asked as a breeder-veterinarian, “What will happen to my bitch when she gets older—will she go into menopause like people do?” “Should she be spayed?” “Will she eventually stop cycling?” “Do her chances of developing a pyometra increase as she ages?” These are interesting questions that deserve to be explored. Maintaining the health of our bitches after their reproductive years are over is important.

The Aging Ovaries
As your female dog enters her senior years and continues to have heat cycles, her ovaries may start to physically look abnormal. Normal ovaries are about the size and consistence of a soybean in small dogs and a lima bean in large dogs. Over the years, ovaries can develop pitting along their surface, or may develop cysts filled with fluid. During spays on older females, I have seen some ovaries look like a small piece of cauliflower with cysts and thickened tissue covering them. Ovaries continue to regulate hormonal releases, but as they age, they lose the efficiency to do it well.

The interval between heats may increase as your dog gets older, decreasing the number of times she goes into heat each year. In one report, 18-month-old dogs cycled an average of 1.65 times per year, while 7-year-old bitches cycled an average of 1.4 times per year.1 As your bitch continues to age past 7 years, fewer and fewer heat cycles occur. Eventually, your bitch may completely stop cycling. In this regard, it is similar to human menopause, but in dogs there are other considerations—mainly dealing with uterine health.

The Aging Uterus
The lining of the dog’s uterus is called the endometrium, and it remains proliferative (thickened) throughout its life. Many other species do not have proliferative uterine linings all their lives—this may be one reason dogs are unique when it comes to their aging reproductive tracts.

The ovaries and uterus use hormones to communicate to each other about reproductive status. The ovaries tell the uterine lining when to be ready for ovulation and when to go into estrus. The uterus tells the ovaries when it is pregnant.

As your bitch gets older, communication between the ovaries and uterus may not be as efficient as in her younger years. The proliferative lining of the uterus may undergo degenerative changes or excessive thickening because the communication between the two organs begins to fail. As the condition progresses, inflammatory cells appear in an effort to rid the uterus of excessive mucous or thickened tissue. Sometimes the uterus fills with high numbers of inflammatory cells and can develop a secondary bacterial infection. This is pyometra, a filled uterus, which can be a deadly condition if not treated by your veterinarian immediately.

So as your bitch ages, even though she may not cycle as often as she did in her younger years, the ovaries and uterus continue a not-so-effective form of communication, which eventually can cause pyometra. Therefore, to prevent this from happening, all female dogs should be spayed when they are no longer being used in a breeding program.

Is There a Magical Age?
Before a bitch of any age is bred, her overall health should be considered. In all instances, she should be in perfect health, but this is especially important when considering a bitch over 6 years old. All bitches over 6 years old should have a thorough examination by your veterinarian - no exceptions. Blood work and a urinalysis should be to screen for potential metabolic conditions or organ disease. The physically demanding needs of pregnancy or hard labor could heighten the conditions of a pre-existing disease and threaten the life of your bitch.

As bitches age, their fertility drops—their conception rates decrease and their litter size usually decreases. In one study, bitches between 3 and 5 years of age had the best conception rates and largest number of surviving puppies.1

So, if your bitch is in excellent health, how old is too old for her to be bred? In a survey conducted with breeders of small, medium and large breeds of dogs, they were asked at what age they usually stop using their bitches in a breeding program. The average was between 7 and 8 years of age.2 Keep in mind this was the average of many different breeds, and some breeders spay their bitches at an earlier age. Some breeders also consider the total number of litters the bitch has had when determining when to stop breeding—the more litters, the earlier they should be taken out of a breeding program. As a veterinarian, I recommend my clients have their bitches spayed by 7 or 8 years of age (or younger if the bitch is no longer being bred) to reduce the risk of pyometra.

[SushiMutt]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

we do not feel it is necessary to add to the overpopulation of animals. At this moment there are millions of cats and dogs a year being euthanized; some not very humanely.

I agree entirely with this...

Although, I would like to say that breeding dogs is an amazing thing when you do it correctly. (I have not bred any dogs, but I've read several books and seen many animal planet shows on the subject, so I don't know much about it first hand.) Despite the lack of first hand knowledge, I do know that breeding is something that must be done carefully, in many was.

Often, people make the mistake of breeding random dogs together, for fun...and then they're stuck with 6-12 mutts. (I'm not talking about "designer" breeds, I'm talking just...mutts.) I have nothing against mutts themselves, one is my best friend. What I don't like about it is that the puppies aren't "selling material". It's sad, but true. Often people want pure breds if they can get their hands on them...The mutts often end up in animal shelters, waiting to be adopted. Which is why there is no real need to breed dogs at the moment...Shelters are overflowing with puppies, adult dogs and senior dogs.

Anyway, to conclude, I agree!

SPCA : http://www.spcamonteregie.com/index.php

[Goldfields]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

I can see I have to explain my comment a little.
When I say "ethical" breeder I am talking about a breeder who only breeds the dog once every year or two. Preferable two.

If I did what you suggest here, 14+, I'd have had so many litters. 12 females I've owned over a period of 34 years, say each one having a litter every second year? Or only 1 female breeding at a time? Still 17 litters. I'd have gone broke for starters, or nuts looking after so many, or been divorced - and I wouldn't blame him. There are all sorts of breeders out there and if everyone wants to be so judgemental - which you're entitled to seeing you have such a huge over population - you should try blaming the people who are responsible for it, and not just generalise about "breeders". Without those wicked breeders you would not have all those beautiful pure breeds to develope a liking for.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

If I did what you suggest here, 14+, I'd have had so many litters. 12 females I've owned over a period of 34 years, say each one having a litter every second year? Or only 1 female breeding at a time? Still 17 litters. I'd have gone broke for starters, or nuts looking after so many, or been divorced - and I wouldn't blame him. There are all sorts of breeders out there and if everyone wants to be so judgemental - which you're entitled to seeing you have such a huge over population - you should try blaming the people who are responsible for it, and not just generalise about "breeders". Without those wicked breeders you would not have all those beautiful pure breeds to develope a liking for.

And once again - Did you notice I said DOG? Not dogS. DOG. Every two years. Now if a breeder did that with one dog; had families lined up for them before breeding, which I understand good breeders do; and had a litter of 8 to 10 then why would they go crazy? Mom does most of the work feeding them for the first few weeks. After 10 to 12 weeks the pups would go to their forever home and the breeder would have almost a year and a half rest before going through it again. Small price to pay to make sure you are breeding ethically.
You didn't own those 12 dogs all at once? You didn't breed past the age of eight? Surely 17 litters in 34 years for an ethical breeder is not that large of a number?
See, I was under the notion, as being told many times by breeders, that breeders breed for the love of the line, not money. I suppose from your comment about going broke I am mistaken. Again.
I don't know if you noticed but in the rules of the forum it's pretty clear when you signed up that this is by a large majority a pro spay/neuter forum. I also don't know if you read but the reason I started this thread was because we had so many "breeders" coming on asking questions that, if they were ethical breeders, they should have known.
I have no intention of having yet another thread locked arguing this back and forth. It seems to be becoming a pattern. I have said my piece.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Goldfields

If I did what you suggest here, 14+, I'd have had so many litters. 12 females I've owned over a period of 34 years, say each one having a litter every second year? Or only 1 female breeding at a time? Still 17 litters. I'd have gone broke for starters, or nuts looking after so many, or been divorced - and I wouldn't blame him. There are all sorts of breeders out there and if everyone wants to be so judgemental - which you're entitled to seeing you have such a huge over population - you should try blaming the people who are responsible for it, and not just generalise about "breeders". Without those wicked breeders you would not have all those beautiful pure breeds to develope a liking for.

totally sick of the snide comments and this one has been reported..we're here to educate people and try and help animals,,

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by aslan

totally sick of the snide comments and this one has been reported..we're here to educate people and try and help animals,,

Thanks mf!

[shirley1011]

Aslan...thought you were on holidays!!
I have had a couple of litters of Norwegian Elkhounds but only when I have had a waiting list of people who sincerely wanted puppies.
I would not breed a dog past 4 years of age and probably won't be breeding again. We have a beautiful line of Norwegian Elkhounds but I think my efforts are better spent in finding homes for Elkhounds that are in search of new homes.......actually one in Hamilton now that I am working on.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by shirley1011

Aslan...thought you were on holidays!!
I have had a couple of litters of Norwegian Elkhounds but only when I have had a waiting list of people who sincerely wanted puppies.
I would not breed a dog past 4 years of age and probably won't be breeding again. We have a beautiful line of Norwegian Elkhounds but I think my efforts are better spent in finding homes for Elkhounds that are in search of new homes.......actually one in Hamilton now that I am working on.

lol,,,i am...see now that is ethical breeding as is the breeder whom we got qman from,,,she doesn't breed before the age of atleast 2 and never past the age of 4..we just lucked out with Q,,she was expecting 9 puppies and just happened to have 10 or we'd have been on the waiting list too.

[Goldfields]

Aslan, I'm more conservative than 14+ and you can't hear me out? I will try to answer her questions, if I am allowed to.

Now if a breeder did that with one dog; had families lined up for them before breeding, which I understand good breeders do; and had a litter of 8 to 10 then why would they go crazy?

Sounds good, families lined up, it'd be an ideal world if that always happened. Thinking generally, breeders should be prepared for the cost, and some would say the inconvenience, of holding onto pups that are slow to sell, even keeping any that don't. I hate it when people consider pups at weaning age to be a nuisance, wanting to get rid of them ASAP. They bought them into the world, they are responsible, and if they HAD to do that it'd stop people breeding too often. I haven't had that happen, but with large litters I have had to put some expense and effort into finding just the right homes. Why would people go crazy? Try rearing 11 ACD babies. If you didn't have a bad back before you start you are going to have one by the time you've stooped down a million times. (Feels like that anyway. ) And this breed I've got are tigers, the fighting that goes on between the fiesty male puppies by 8 weeks of age , and they'll pick on the smallest, or on the females. Yes, it drives you to the brink.

You didn't own those 12 dogs all at once? You didn't breed past the age of eight?

I have owned 12 dogs at once, the show team, the oldies, the few I raised for showing but found weren't up to par for some reason. The age of 8? That's an old dog. I haven't and wouldn't breed past the age of 4. Our Code of Ethics states you mustn't mate them so they whelp before 12 months of age, and then you mustn't cause one to whelp more than twice in 18 months, so yes, lots of breeders would be breeding them later than 4, just not yours truly. In fact of the 12 girls I've owned, 6 did not have litters at all, one had 2 litters, the others only 1.

Surely 17 litters in 34 years for an ethical breeder is not that large of a number?

With up to 10 or 12 pups a litter, multiplied by how many breeders are out there? Still means a lot of pups. And I'd be surprised if any breeder, breeding for showing or to improve the breed could do it with one female at a time. More pups. I was disgusted to hear that one breeder here had been so upset when her cattle dog had died before she had her 100th pup. It had 99! That is outright cruelty and is puppy farming IMO.

See, I was under the notion, as being told many times by breeders, that breeders breed for the love of the line, not money. I suppose from your comment about going broke I am mistaken. Again.

No, you aren't mistaken.
Back at the time of that big litter, I wanted to know what it was costing, When it reached the amount that could have been reached by selling the litter, I stopped counting and haven't counted since. Oh, I reached that amount well before the pups were weaning age, they get pretty spoilt here. So, you shouldn't breed unless you are ready to lose money every time, and yeah, not being a millionaire, I could go broke . I'd rather put money in the Bank to earn interest for the times when I want to try and breed our next show dog, or buy it. I think the breeders who breed for showing, and are very concerned about trying to improve a breed, are totally different to those who try to make money out of breeding, but it appears that on this forum people are never given the chance to show what category they fit into.

[cassiek]

Originally Posted by SushiMutt

I agree entirely with this...

Although, I would like to say that breeding dogs is an amazing thing when you do it correctly. It can be amazing when it's done by ethical breeders that have the breed's best interest in mind and have the experience, knowledge, and money to successfuly raise a litter of pups. It is never amazing when it's done by BYB's, puppy mills, etc. etc., no matter how cute the pups are

(I have not bred any dogs, but I've read several books and seen many animal planet shows on the subject, so I don't know much about it first hand.) Despite the lack of first hand knowledge, I do know that breeding is something that must be done carefully, in many was.

Often, people make the mistake of breeding random dogs together, for fun...and then they're stuck with 6-12 mutts. (I'm not talking about "designer" breeds, I'm talking just...mutts.) IMO, "designer breeds" such as labradoodles, chorkies, and all the other silly names are simply just two random dogs put together and are simply mutts. I have nothing against mutts themselves, one is my best friend. What I don't like about it is that the puppies aren't "selling material". It's sad, but true. Often people want pure breds if they can get their hands on them...The mutts often end up in animal shelters, waiting to be adopted. It's surprising just how many purebred dogs end up in shelters though, they are not all mixed breeds. At the humane society I work with, we have on average about 40-50% purebreds. Yes, people dump purebred dogs, too.Which is why there is no real need to breed dogs at the moment...Shelters are overflowing with puppies, adult dogs and senior dogs.

Anyway, to conclude, I agree!

SPCA : http://www.spcamonteregie.com/index.php

There should never be a reason to breed any two dogs while there are still millions being PTS every year simply because they do not have a home!

[marko]

Thread has run its course and closed at the request of the OP.