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The Licensing of Tyranny in Dog Ownership
http://animalsclubfreedom.typepad.co...ownership.html
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Sandy Belle Sheeba - born 11/14/07 at 12:30 pm Linx Jasper |
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Lets post this on kijiji for all those owners posting for free animals to give away!!
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~B~ "If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail." Bailey (Labradoodle) Tippy (Collie/ShepX) Vali (American Bulldog) Artiro (Cane Corso) |
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Having your dog licenced is very beneifical. Alot of people look at it, as another a pain. However, licencing your dog is the fastest way to get you dog home, if he goes missing or becomes lost, that and microchipping. For instance, actually had a call today regarding someone had found a dog running at large and had him confined in his is house. Arrive to the address and notice that the dog had a current dog licence. Called dispatch, got the owners info and I returned dog to the owner within 10 mins.
Interesting article though. Thanks for sharing it. ACO22 |
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Well it's more politically oriented than pet oriented really.
It's the whole idea of a "license." Like you have to have a license to get married, as in asking permission to get married. So if a license is required for a dog, then you're asking the government permission to have a dog. May not be many more years until people are required to ask permission to have a child. Quote:
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Sandy Belle Sheeba - born 11/14/07 at 12:30 pm Linx Jasper |
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Well i dont agree with the hypothises in the first place and the exampleof guns
dosent work any one can buy a gun if they want one and we have guns on the streets around here big time As in all laws, the wise ruling in the public interst and judicial application is paramount I would gladley liscence my cat and have always willingly lisceneced my dogs |
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I wonder what everyone's thoughts are, if mircochipping became a bylaw. Remember 20 years ago, we didn't have microchipping, we only had a tag. Would you still think of this "Licence" as a "ugh, it's like asking permisson" attitude or would you think of it as this is a greater way that my pet can get reunited with me, if they get lost. You shouldn't look at it as, that damn government, I refuse to buy a licence and I win. Think about it as, for the love of your pet. With them not having somesort of ID, they might never be found, if they go missing. And, when you think maybe it should be thought of as "permission". Not everyone should be a pet owner, not everyone should get married and not everyone should have children. ACO22 |
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The more we give our power away, the more they want to take.
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Sandy Belle Sheeba - born 11/14/07 at 12:30 pm Linx Jasper |
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It gets the dog home, and if everyone actually did it, it would stop the animal hoarding.. Give them a basis to rule on their 4 animal poopy rule, knowing who is over the limit.. My dogs are microchipped and I count on that to be a better way of getting them home than the city of brandon license, but the lisence is a must have to use the dog park, they do check up often.. So the small fee is worth it for that reason alone to me.
However a dog being somehwhere between a person and a possesion? Im thinkin closer to a person.. they are a pet.. far far from a possesion.. IMO.. Of coarse people should be able to sue for damages when the dog died! They suffer MORE than SOME people do when they lose a family member, that CANNOT be ignored! My pets are people, I have always said that.. Glad we are getting closer to all the morons out there that haven't been lucky enough to know that already... Next up, lets finally start giving these furry people the RIGHTS they deserve! |
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Licensing has never fixed a problem. It's a great tool used by governments to make money and keep tabs, but it solves no problems.
Think about it. The goal is to stop hoarding, but the law requires that owners license and the number is limited...4 animals to a house. Has that stopped hoarding? No. The hoarder is going to still hoard...and will until discovered. Meanwhile, responsible people, who are going to heed the rule, will pay the price. There is a member on this board who recently wanted to adopt another cat from a shelter. The shelter denied the adoption on the basis that it would put the member out of compliance with their municipality's by-laws. If there is even a chance that someone might complain at a later date and the cat would have to be rehomed again, the shelter won't adopt the cat into that situation. Rightly so. It would be unfair to both cat and owner. But this member really wanted another cat. She can give another cat a lovely, loving home and can afford to care for the cat. So she finds a stray and takes it in. She is now a criminal (however petty the crime) in her municipality. Has any of this slowed down the hoarder? No. But it has prevented this member from legally adopted a needy cat. If your aim is to stop hoarding, take the time to legally define 'hoarding' and direct the law at stopping it. Unfortunately, that is not a money-maker for government, since they rarely would prosecute a hoarding case (there just aren't enough of them). So responsible, law-abiding citizens lose the freedom of adopting that extra cat Jim--take your argument about the guns. Guns are licensed in your town, but there are still guns on the street. Illegally gained, unregistered, unlicensed, and illegally kept. The licensing did nothing to help the problem. It did however, make the law-abiding citizens inform the government that they own guns. If/when that government decides in its inestimable wisdom to take guns away from citizens, the only guns it has tabs on are those that have been registered. The illegal guns are still bought and sold on the black market and are still in the hands of criminals. And if a law-abiding citizen decides that self-defense is more important than a government mandate to turn in guns, then that citizen has just become a criminal Again, licensing/registration has done nothing to solve a problem. Finally, to continue in my devil's advocacy...look at licensing and how it relates to BSL, or BSL to it. When we license our dogs, we state the breed. I'm assuming this is a fairly common practice. Let's say that English Setters are suddenly declared canine non grata and I'm faced with having to ship the Pack out or run the risk of having them destroyed. The governing authority knows I have English Setters. Now what do I do? How many pit bull owners have faced a similar agonizing quandary? Licensing/registration has never solved a problem. What we need are laws that clearly state a problem and offer real solutions to control that problem. And then we need to enforce those laws. That's a lot of work. Licensing is just so much easier and lucrative
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"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference." "It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!" "Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle." |
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I agree, and well said Hazel! like I said I think the 4 animal rule is poopy.. I can see the idea.. if licensing actually worked.. it could stop hoarding, and would also stop many animals from getting the homes they need. Here the law is 2 cats and 2 dogs.. I have 2 cats and 2 dogs.. I think it is propsterous for them to tell me I cannot care for another cat properly. If everyone did license including potential hoarders, and the limit was like 8, then when someone got one over they could do something i may begin to understand..I hate the whole licensing thing, and here most people don't license their pets, epecially their cats, but I do for use of the dog park and that is it... I will count on the micochip to get them home.
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Most of the problems we face in the world today will never be solved by government rules, regulations, laws, presidential signing statements and other forms of control. Need for guns for protection from other humans, or guns used in criminal situations would go away if there was no crime. Crime would disappear if there was no more greed and no more destitution or want. Take hunting for example. The greedy and those that only care about social status or appearances where we live will go during moose hunting season, kill a moose, mount the head on the front of their vehicle, drive around with the carcass for so long on the truck just to show off that the meat goes bad and everything has to be chucked at the dump. And this is with 3 people on a moose license. There is also a lottery special license for a chance to take down a female. I'm not kidding. I call it the "moose parade." Usually about halfway during either the bow season or the gun season, the men start coming out of the woods hauling a giant carcass. One guy had the head on the front of his truck for about two weeks. The good hunters will use as much of the animal as possible. They clean the hides and either give or sell cheaply to a leather worker who can then make something out of it. Bones and extra meat fed to dogs. Choice parts or stewing meat are butchered cleanly and shared with others. These guys aren't greedy because they care about the animals not suffering in any way, never want to waste any of it and share with neighbors and friends instead of hoarding or fighting. The answer isn't to just not allow the greedy types to have guns in the form of denying a license for they will just go get something illegally and poach. The answer is to TEACH people that being greedy isn't socially acceptable. Then that child grows up and teaches his/her own children that being greedy isn't socially acceptable. No laws required, no government intervention and the people solved the problem on their own just by agreeing en masse that no one should be greedy. It becomes choice, not subjugation.
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Sandy Belle Sheeba - born 11/14/07 at 12:30 pm Linx Jasper |
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Hazel, I think you hit the problem right on the head. The fact that NOT licensing our pets in this society, is too easy.
How many of us have seen dogs at the dog park running around without tags? And even in those situations, whose to say that these dogs *aren't* licensed? Sure, lawabiding citizens get the crappy end of the deal when they respect the rules and regulations and get shafted because of it. But I think the problem lies not with the hoarders or the other owners; but the people NOT enforcing these laws. There are laws in place for a reason. Humane societies, by turning people away, are trying to do their part in keeping people from hoarding. It's a bandaid, and it doesn't fully work unless the OTHER part of the equation is doing their job too. (Which they obviously aren't.) There are checkstops for drivers; why can't there be checkstops for pet owners? I believe that this is what licensing has 'attempted' to do, simply because the government doesn't see how else they can try to monitor this problem. I suppose my question is, if we don't think licensing works, what procedures would?
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~B~ "If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail." Bailey (Labradoodle) Tippy (Collie/ShepX) Vali (American Bulldog) Artiro (Cane Corso) Last edited by Bailey_; July 20th, 2009 at 10:31 AM. |
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The problem is not that licensing is not enforced. The problem is that licensing gives government a lot of control over law-abiding citizens without targeting the actual problems. Let's look again at hoarding. A 'good' law would clearly define what hoarding is and set up a clear remedy. That is the law that needs enforcement. But as I said before, there's no money in this type of law. Licensing is easy for governments who can count on their law-abiding citizens to cooperate and is desirable because it raises funds. I'm in government....believe me, there is a pervasive atmosphere of "where the next buck is coming from", not "where can we cut to save money" (...but that's a whole nuther topic )... However, licensing will not solve the underlying problem of hoarding (a hoarder doesn't advertise, doesn't license, and is usually only discovered when a neighbor complains or by accident). So the underlying problem that spurred the licensing in the first place is still going strong. But now the responsible pet owners are footing funding for the government to continue to be ineffectual in the struggle against hoarders. And would you really want checkstops for pet owners, Bailey? How intrusive is that? What keeps them from knocking on your door to do spot checks of your pets? That would be open to more abuse than the licensing itself
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"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference." "It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!" "Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle." |
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I agreed with you that licensing has not solved problems, and this was my personal opinion of WHY. Quote:
I have seen so many people who choose to disregard this law, simply because they are never caught. How many people are able to own a cat, for instance, and do not have it licensed on the thought that they will 'keep it inside the house'? It's not fair to others who choose to obey that particular law about owning pets. Quote:
And as far as people actually coming to my house to do a 'spot check' on my animals, I have nothing to hide. If it means that the person down the street won't own hundreds of animals because of not obeying the laws that they SHOULD be, then come on in! Call me crazy, but I would gladly invite the law into my house if it meant changing the consequences for those that don't obey the rules. And I never said this is the action the law needs to take in order to enforce the laws and prevent hoarding; I think the problem at this point in society is quite far - I was just trying to bring out the fact that pet ownership and those who are able to have a pet is not taken seriously enough by those on the other side of the law.
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~B~ "If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail." Bailey (Labradoodle) Tippy (Collie/ShepX) Vali (American Bulldog) Artiro (Cane Corso) Last edited by Bailey_; July 20th, 2009 at 12:39 PM. |
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You would actually be happy if government authorities did house-by-house compliance checks? Holay catz! First of all, what an invasion of privacy! Bailey, you're a braver person than I, willing to cede that much of your independence to a government bureaucracy! If you are using common sense and are law-abiding, what right does government have to intrude on your life? You vote your representatives into office--they work for you, not vice versa! When was the last time you went to your superiors on the corporate ladder at work and asked for an accounting of their private lives?
Maybe I'm jaded...I've seen too much political infighting--but consider if you tick off one of your town officials and they decide to make your life miserable by nit-picking--and can legally nit-pick inside your home. And an even bigger concern to most people (face it, animal welfare is not on the high end of the priority list for most people trying to feed a family and retain their employment)...are you willing to foot the cost of these house-by-house inspections? (It would have to include every house...spot-checking is no better than the current system where someone finds a hoarder by accident or because a neighbor complains.) Even at minimum wage, how much would it cost your community to do compliance checks? At some point, the benefits to society are far outweighed by costs to the taxpayer. What if the idea caught on and suddenly your community wants to do house-to-house checks for domestic abuse and child abuse, a much worthier cause in many citizens' eyes? And the day they came to your house was after the big soccer game--your son has a huge bruise where he was accidentally kicked? Whooopsy...evidence of child abuse. "I'm sorry, we have to remove your child from your home..." Get my drift? When will it be "too much"? And when it gets to be "too much", how do you fix that problem? You can never get 100% compliance on any law...it's a fact of life. 100% compliance is too expensive, both monetarily and socially. Draconian measures foster resistance. One thing I've learned. If you give a government bureaucrat a toe in the door, he'll be sitting on your couch demanding dinner by the end of the week. If you value your freedoms, you have to fight for them, not hand them out at the door! Remember, a government that is big enough to give you everything is big enough to take everything away... And hazel didn't say that. That's from Thomas Jefferson.
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"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference." "It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!" "Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle." |
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Hazel they actually did just do a door to door licence check here in toronto in the last two months. They even had the spiffy little machine so you could use a debit or credit card to pay right there and then.
I personally don't think a government issued dog licence is going to be anymore affective than the personalized tags my dogs wear ( and yes they are legally licenced). If say Qman got loose and someone found him, tag or no tag, if they want him, poof off goes the tag or collar. Even with door to door, i know people that got away without licencing. They had one of 4 dogs licenced so the name was on the list and the house was just bypassed. Anyone who is hoarding will come up with away to get by. |
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2. That's like inviting a vampire! (But it could also apply to church ministers just wanting a free meal.) 3. *nods in agreement* Quote:
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Sandy Belle Sheeba - born 11/14/07 at 12:30 pm Linx Jasper |
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there may have been but i didn't notice it, SIL seemed to be aware it was going on. i can check if you'd like.
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here you go, i get the impression its not just toronto by the names of other cities that came up too.
www.thestar.com/article/455144 |
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Basically, if it meant that we could catch two or three hoarders or people who have not licensed their pets - out of a thousand people - I would do it. Gladly. Whether or not I liked it. Quote:
I guess I just think we can progress by making small steps in certain areas...and animal regulation is such a hard one to figure out.
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~B~ "If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail." Bailey (Labradoodle) Tippy (Collie/ShepX) Vali (American Bulldog) Artiro (Cane Corso) |
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Sandy Belle Sheeba - born 11/14/07 at 12:30 pm Linx Jasper |
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BUT - this is something I'm not sure what to feel about. Quote:
And yet if they checked all the houses regardless, people who have licensed all their animals may be made to feel grouped in with those who don't obey the law, considering they took the time to take the appropriate steps. It's so tricky, this whole process. What is right, what is wrong.
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~B~ "If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail." Bailey (Labradoodle) Tippy (Collie/ShepX) Vali (American Bulldog) Artiro (Cane Corso) |
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What you're describing, aslan, is intrusive without being effective. As you say, some people weren't checked as closely as others, and some weren't checked at all. At what cost to the taxpayer, I wonder? What benefit? When we lived in EC, we'd get yearly notices in the mail when license fees were due. There was a notice on the bottom of the slip: "If pet is deceased, do not return slip. Pet will be removed from license list." We still got a renewal for Priscilla for 4 years running after she died. So much for governmental efficiency. We finally wrote them a letter pointing out that she hadn't had a tab issued for 4 years. Sigh Let's say that they had the authority to inspect a household for noncompliance--can you imagine hazel putting up with them coming inside her house to look for Priscilla until they were finally convinced that she'd died? (Only if they grabbed a vacuum and did some floors while they were there! )
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"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference." "It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!" "Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle." |
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I just found this.
Coming soon near us all I imagine. RFID tattoo ink ID http://somarkinnovations.com/products/ Quote:
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Sandy Belle Sheeba - born 11/14/07 at 12:30 pm Linx Jasper |
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Right and wrong are not as tricky as unintended consequences from ill-thought-out bills. We had what was supposed to be an anti-puppy-mill bill going through the state legislature last year--I was excited...we live in a county notorious for puppy mills...but then I read the proposed bill. I won't hit the details, but it would have, as an unintended consequence, resulted in the destruction of hundreds or thousands of puppies. Not to mention that the ones that survived would often end up right in the very puppy mills that the bill was supposedly targeting! (PM me if you really want details...it's not riveting stuff. ) Some days I wish I had never decided to start paying attention. :sad: It's so bloody frustrating!
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"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference." "It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!" "Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle." |
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If a dog is microchipped i dont see how licensing that dog would help get him or her home especially if they alerady have a tag with the owners details. The way i see it, is that it is just another tax grab. They just put a differnt name to this tax.... The government should have no business coming into people's home to check on them unless there are some complaints that would suggest that there is some animal abuse, etc.
Having more than 4 pets does not make a person a hoarder. A person can have 20 cats or dogs but if they can properly provide and care for them then this person is an angel not a hoarder. Hoarders are people with a mental problem and no means to care for the animals and no 'licensing fee' will deter them. All it will do is prevent people from adopting in additional animals in need, even if they have the means to support them, as happend at another thread. If the government needs more funds for the Animal Services, it should legislate a tax that applies to all city residents, not just animal owners. Just as my property taxes go towards services neither me or my husband use. They are punishing people who care for animals by taxing them whereas what they need to spend their time and energy on is trying to improve animal rights. ok, rant over
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Monkey and Amy (cats) Jermy (GSD) “Dogs believe they are human. Cats believe they are God.” "The average dog is a nicer person than the average person." |
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Hazel, I actually hadn't thought through specifics of it all, it was just an example I thought to use to establish how I felt about the seriousness of it all.
I had no idea it had actually already happened! And to answer your question, I don't think I personally would find it would make much difference whether or not they had a warrant. I would let them into my home, because like I said before - if it meant the consequences for other pet owners who did not obey the law became more serious, I am a willing compliant. Every action has a reaction. Maybe it would make people more aware about how many pets they owned, maybe it would stop some BYB. Maybe it wouldn't. Am I willing to take a chance, refuse the government into my home because I feel intruded, and possibly choke a situation that could very well end homelessness in animals ten, twenty, fifty years down the road? Nope.
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~B~ "If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail." Bailey (Labradoodle) Tippy (Collie/ShepX) Vali (American Bulldog) Artiro (Cane Corso) |
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Okay, seriously. That is unbelievable!!!! :sad: Maybe I am just naive and I like to think that the government will help us all fix these things? But I suppose if that was the case, then a lot of our problems today wouldn't exist.... *sigh*
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~B~ "If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail." Bailey (Labradoodle) Tippy (Collie/ShepX) Vali (American Bulldog) Artiro (Cane Corso) |
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well the whole they aren't fining people is bullcrap. two of our neighbours weren't home, buddy knocks, dogs bark, fine left in the mailbox. our one neighbour was two houses over fixing a fence and i told the guy that. And the neighbour thought with the dogs microchipped that they didn't need a licence.
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Aslan, that SUCKS. Sounds like their vet dropped the ball though in explaining what a microchip does and what it's actually for...
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~B~ "If you are a dog and your owner suggests that you wear a sweater. . . suggest that he wear a tail." Bailey (Labradoodle) Tippy (Collie/ShepX) Vali (American Bulldog) Artiro (Cane Corso) |
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