Shiloh Shephards

[14+kitties]

Ok, now this thread is just getting nasty.
I have been reading this subject, both sides, and finding it very interesting but, alas, somewhat above my head as breeding is not something I have ever considered getting into. Something about all the dogs/cats that are being euthanized daily in shelters because they can't find homes for them just gets to me. As in enough that I would never consider bringing more into this world.

Now I guess I can be called a bleeding heart too. Oh well.
If this thread is going to end up being spiteful instead of informative and useful then it may be a good thing to have it locked now. JMO

[Bold Canine]

I believe the discussion began with questions regarding the breed from someone who was interested in them.

In the absence of any real answer from anyone involved with the breed, I endeavoured to provide them in a clear fashion.

However, at some point it became at attack on the breeding program, the existence of the breed, and somehow a GSD vs Shiloh debate. Throw into that the likes of people questioning if it is even a breed lol.

Information was requested, and details were provided. If it's not the breed for some on the board, that's fine, ignore it, and leave it to people that are interested.

Trying to debate the validity of the breed will not result in a civil discussion given that some are so adamantly against the existence of any breed except their own.

This debate has gone on in many forums, with usually a very good discussion, however, some simply will not accept that the breed is here, and developing. Trying to argue that is simply futile.

IMHO of course

[hazelrunpack]

Wow, like a dentist drilling a tooth, looks like I hit a bit of nerve.

Sorry, BC, just couldn't resist.


To each his own, BC, and my opinion is my own. I still see just a sub-line of GSD in your 'breed'. If you see a breed, then that is your right...and your opinion.

I don't think it's so much a 'nasty' turn as just plain patronizing, 14+. And it's been that from the start. But I agree...it may be time to lock the thread before it really does turn nasty...unless erin-e-123 has any objections?

[Bold Canine]

To each his own, BC, and my opinion is my own. I still see just a sub-line of GSD in your 'breed'. If you see a breed, then that is your right...and your opinion.

Noted.

Regards.

[14+kitties]

Originally Posted by hazelrunpack

Sorry, BC, just couldn't resist.


To each his own, BC, and my opinion is my own. I still see just a sub-line of GSD in your 'breed'. If you see a breed, then that is your right...and your opinion.

I don't think it's so much a 'nasty' turn as just plain patronizing, 14+. And it's been that from the start. But I agree...it may be time to lock the thread before it really does turn nasty...unless erin-e-123 has any objections?

Yep you are right hazel. Nasty maybe was a little strong of a word to use. But I hate to see an educational two-sided discussion disintegrate into dust. It's too bad. :sad:

[Chaser]

Originally Posted by Chase_Mom

Just wanted to give a to all involved in this thread. I'm enjoying following such a well-educated and civil discussion. It's nice to see

I stand corrected.

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

But I hate to see an educational two-sided discussion disintegrate into dust. It's too bad.

Agreed.

[Dekka]

I really did want some answers... if there were answers to be had. An honest 'I don't know' is better than sweeping things under the carpet.

I do think its important to look at what we as dog people do and how it impacts dog's as a whole. So making a new breed that is the same as many other breeds just to be a good pet to me is irresponsible. If that dog could do things better or had some 'feature' that made it different than thousands of other dogs already dying in shelters then I would be whole heartedly behind you.

But as no answers were provided I will be forced to deduce that there are none to be had.

[Frenchy]

Originally Posted by 14+kitties

Something about all the dogs/cats that are being euthanized daily in shelters because they can't find homes for them just gets to me. As in enough that I would never consider bringing more into this world.

Originally Posted by Dekka

So making a new breed that is the same as many other breeds just to be a good pet to me is irresponsible. If that dog could do things better or had some 'feature' that made it different than thousands of other dogs already dying in shelters then I would be whole heartedly behind you.

I totally agree with both statement.

IMO , If someone doesn't think a GSD is a good family pet , than this person should ... get another breed !!!! Go to a shelter and have his/her pick !!! If I want a golden with a short coat , I'll adopt a Labrador , I won't start to play with the golden breed just so I can get myself one with a short coat.

I guess the OP never did any rescue work or volunteered at a shelter, if so he might know why some of us are against creating more breeds than there already is.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by erin_e_123

Hi! I was just wondering if anyone knows anything about this breed of dog? I have done some research on them, but there isn't a lot because it's apparently a newer breed?

Erin_e_123, if you're still following this thread, I'd suggest you do much more research into this type of dog and it's breeders should you choose to go this route. As of yet, this is not a recognized breed by the CKC nor the AKC. As mentioned several times, it is a breed in development. Please, please do your research and be aware of what makes an ethical, responsible breeder. As for Shilohs, as posted already, here is the founder's website. http://www.shilohshepherds.org/kennelof.htm I would also strongly recommend you research all the 'breeders' of this type(s) of dog. Ask for references, find owners, both past and present to share their experiences with you. There are actually some kennels that breed their females in back-to-back heat, not just once but, three and four times . One doesn't have to be an experienced breeder to know this is wrong.

Originally Posted by erin_e_123

I used to have a German as a kid and he was an angel, but apparently the Shiloh has been bread so that they don't have the aggression that German's posses. Is this true?

Erin, any and all breeds include dogs with the potential to be aggressive. When researching any breed, or mix of breeds, it's always a case of 'buyer beware' and as consumers, it's up to us to look past a salesperson's spiel and really look at the product (in this case, a type of dog) for what it really is and where it originates from.

[Bold Canine]

Your points are all valid and true Luckypenny, and good advice for Erin.

However, you should research your statement:

There are actually some kennels that breed their females in back-to-back heat, not just once but, three and four times . One doesn't have to be an experienced breeder to know this is wrong

If a bitch is health, producing a good litter, and recovered, it is actually considered safer to breed back-to-back versus skid a heat.

I'm not about to start that debate in this thread and take it in yet another tangent from the original intent, but to state that a back-to-back breeding is somehow unethical, is in fact ill-informed.

Lookup some of the articles by someone like Dr. Hutchison who explains it better than I could

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Your points are all valid and true Luckypenny,

If a bitch is health, producing a good litter, and recovered, it is actually considered safer to breed back-to-back versus skid a heat.

I'm not about to start that debate in this thread and take it in yet another tangent from the original intent, but to state that a back-to-back breeding is somehow unethical, is in fact ill-informed.

Lookup some of the articles by someone like Dr. Hutchison who explains it better than I could

omg are you serious, i am an owner of a show and hunting line golden retriever. The breeder he comes from will not only skip one, but possibly 3-5 heats for the health and safety of the female. Anyone who breeds back to back as far as i'm concerned isn't in it for the love of the breed. If you're married ask your wife how she'd feel about being knocked up after every previous pregnancy.

[Bold Canine]

omg are you serious, i am an owner of a show and hunting line golden retriever. The breeder he comes from will not only skip one, but possibly 3-5 heats for the health and safety of the female. Anyone who breeds back to back as far as i'm concerned isn't in it for the love of the breed. If you're married ask your wife how she'd feel about being knocked up after every previous pregnancy.

Aslan, you need to do your research before you start firing attacks without fully understanding the logic. Honestly. Understand the effects of a progesterone cycle on the canine uterus. Lookup someone like Dr Hutchison. Or speak with your vet. And to insinuate that back-to-back somehow isn't in it for the love of the breed frankly is just plain slanderous and without validation.

Again, likely why a moderator should be locking this thread down prior to it going any more off the rails then it already has. Given the current direction, I will abstain from any further contribution to the thread. I did my best with it.


Regards

[aslan]

one i am very well researched, two at no point was i rude to you and do not deserve to be spoken to as if i'm stupid.

You are most definately entitled to your opinion, as am I. It would appear that if i agree with you i'm educated, if i don't then i must be stupid and worthy of your rudeness.

two of my three dogs are akc,ckc registered and recognized breeds. Can you say the same.

[Bold Canine]

Well, if I may humbly suggest, perhaps you might want to research the health theory on back-to-back breeding prior to slandering those that do.

And if you don't feel that your posting was rude, perhaps you could re-read it and see where offence may have been drawn from.

two of my three dogs are akc,ckc registered and recognized breeds. Can you say the same.

LOL. Good for you. I'm sure they are lovely dogs. LOL. Wow.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Well, if I may humbly suggest, perhaps you might want to research the health theory on back-to-back breeding prior to slandering those that do.



LOL. Good for you. I'm sure they are lovely dogs. LOL. Wow.

well you know what they say about opinions...vets also prescribe hills and science diet, you can always find a specialist to back up what ever claim you want to make.

I have to say i was very interested in this thread until the attitude started to come out. So far as others have said this designer dog, tho i will admit very handsome. doesn't offer anything that many other existing breeds don't already have. for therapy there are golden retrievers, for guard gsd,rotts, etc etc, hearding if you want your shilohs looks we have the Belgian Turveron. I am very interested in what special quality the Shiloh exhibits( i'm sincerely interested, not being sarcastic).

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

If a bitch is health, producing a good litter, and recovered, it is actually considered safer to breed back-to-back versus skid a heat.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Lookup some of the articles by someone like Dr. Hutchison who explains it better than I could

That is your opinion and that of your colleagues and others. There are just as many arguments against back-to-back breeding, especially 2-3 years worth, and I am of that opinion. Please don't insinuate you are right by telling me I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

I'm not about to start that debate in this thread and take it in yet another tangent from the original intent, but to state that a back-to-back breeding is somehow unethical, is in fact ill-informed.

[Bold Canine]

Aslan, please understand that attitude starts coming out when postings become a never ending barrage of the dog not being a breed, inferior to other breeds, etc etc.

Erin asked for some information. I provided it. Then the lynching began lol. I did my best to answer a multitude of questions and angles, obviously not well enough to the likes of some.

I'm really out of energy trying to justify the breed in this thread. It's here, there are lots of resources on the web available, and frankly you'll either love the breed or pass it by. Even though it's not CKC/AKC recognized.

All the best, and I hope some of the web resources available will assist you with further education - should you wish it - regarding the Shiloh Shepherd.


Regards.

[Bold Canine]

here are just as many arguments against back-to-back breeding, especially 2-3 years worth, and I am of that opinion. Please don't insinuate you are right by telling me I'm wrong

LOL. Okay okay Luckypenny. Then why make a statement like:

One doesn't have to be an experienced breeder to know this is wrong.

Since now you state there are two trains of thought, and that was simply your opinion, and not necessarily fact.

Let's see, what else can we discuss in this thread... I don't think we've covered Sasquatch yet?

[aslan]

well unfortunately that's where the problem arose, yes you did very nicely give the original OP all the information on the Shiloh at your disposal. Then other also well informed members gave their opinion...The issue appears to me that you see it as a breed, where as others don't...That isn't when i said anything as i was enjoying hearing both sides.

[aslan]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

LOL. Okay okay Luckypenny. Then why make a statement like:


Since now you state there are two trains of thought, and that was simply your opinion, and not necessarily fact.

Let's see, what else can we discuss in this thread... I don't think we've covered Sasquatch yet?

Now personally this isn't what i would consider a mature or educated response. I'm wondering why when several of us have asked what the dog has to offer, you wont answer. but if someone disagree's you get rude.

[Bold Canine]

Agreed.

Unfortunately I don't think we will reach agreement on the debate. But hopefully proved to be insightful for anyone that read the discussion.

At the end of the day, I'll go back to my pack, and others that don't think it's a breed will go back to theirs, and the world will keep on spinning.

IMHO, to say it's not a breed would get into the whole "what is a breed" debate, which was not the purpose of the thread and a whole can of worms unto itself.

A site like http://www.canismajor.com/dog/whtzbred.html gets into the whole debate, and the definition is not as easily reached as one might think.

[luckypenny]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

LOL. Okay okay Luckypenny. Then why make a statement like:

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Since now you state there are two trains of thought, and that was simply your opinion, and not necessarily fact.

Of course it's my opinion, I wrote it didn't I? And I do believe it's wrong!

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Let's see, what else can we discuss in this thread... I don't think we've covered Sasquatch yet?

[Bold Canine]

Now personally this isn't what i would consider a mature or educated response. I'm wondering why when several of us have asked what the dog has to offer, you wont answer. but if someone disagree's you get rude.

Perhaps I'm not reading the same threads. Did this individual not make some derogatory comments regarding back-to-back breedings? And perhaps my finishing school was a bit different, but I dont see anything at all rude in my response. Firm yes, rude no.

And honestly, in all those pages and posts your haven't seen my responses to what the Shiloh has to offer? The problem appears to be that it is not unique enough for some readers - which is their choice. But, I have listed I think at pretty decent length some of the qualities this breed has to offer.

[mona_b]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Where does the GSD appear on national dog bite statistics? If the breed appeared high on the list could that not be part in the "slow to make friends" description of the breed standard? No fault of the dog, and perhaps the protective properties kicking in? Or perhaps some remnants of functions of the past? And that is by no means to say that all GSDs bite, as that is obviously not the case at all - but a percentage of them will.

ANY and I mean ANY dog will bite. Mixed or pure. And mostly lack of proper socialization and not being trained properly...Are you trying to say your breed won't bite? If so,I highly doubt it.

Seroiusly, go visit an "ETHICAL" GSD breeder. Go see how the adult dogs react to new people..You will NOT get a growl out of any of them..You will be greeted with wagging tails and licks..Why? Cause these are properly trained and socialized dogs.I'm also talking about the ones who are also SchH trained. Something my dog is titled in.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Where does the GSD appear on national dog bite statistics? If the breed appeared high on the list could that not be part in the "slow to make friends" description of the breed standard?

Not at all..It would follow under the not being socialized..Or even poorly bred..Which would be under the BYB's.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

And you're 100% right Mona. I don't know all regarding the GSD, and it's not the breed in which I am involved.

Exactly..But I already knew that.

Do I think the Shiloh will ever get recognized with the CKC? Not at all.

Also,It takes more then 2 breeds to make a purebred....If you look at the breeds we have now,there were MORE then 2 breeds put together to make it..And I'm proud to say that my neice owns a BEAUTIFUL BRT..A breed that was bred for a purpose....

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Since you bring up the Dutch Shepherd, I could likely take on the argument that the breed should not have been created given the similarity to the Belgian and the GSD.

AGAIN..These breeds were bred for a PURPOSE...They are a working breed..Also being used on the Police Force.

Originally Posted by luckypenny

There are actually some kennels that breed their females in back-to-back heat, not just once but, three and four times . One doesn't have to be an experienced breeder to know this is wrong.

So VERY true...

It is SO wrong.And it disgusts me to no end. This is something I would not see with an ETHICAL breeder.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

If a bitch is health, producing a good litter, and recovered, it is actually considered safer to breed back-to-back versus skid a heat.

Are you serious?.....

Were on earth are all these pups going? I am soooooooooo sure there is NOT a high demand for Shilohs..My breeder would be rolling in her grave if she read this.

Far from being ill-informed. We do have knowledge when it comes to this subject.

[Capt. Jack]

Well. Since we have moved from an educational discussion to a personal bash fest, I think this thread has run it's course.