New designer breed *sigh*

[Prin]

They should have just stuck to chocolate, vanilla and strawberry and we'd have been just fine. (But what would happen if you MIXED the chocolate with the strawberry?? Hmmm.)

hmm... Chocolate and strawberry ice cream eh? I think it's a little more complicated than that. More like vanilla ice cream and lemon sorbet: will it work, or will it curdle and be ruined? It's an experiment every time.

[CyberKitten]

I may well fall into that sanctimonious lot you refer to - I don't dislike designer dpgs - they are beautiful in much the same way any mixed breed dog is. But then I like most dogs. I just do not understand and I ask this with the utmost of respect = why would you pay so much and if you did buy your schnoodle (am I right, schnoodle?) from a breeder or worse yet, a pet store, why would you do hat? I am sure you know all the behind the scenes issues that are associated with a pet store? And while some of the breeders of these dogs are quite credible and care for their dog (one who raises labradoodles in NB seems to treat them like livestock even though the mom does get to be inside while pregnant - not breeder I'd go to no matter what I was adopted (cat, rabbit, dog...), I do not understand why you pay the huge prices. There is no guarantee that you will get a dog whop has all the positive benefits and it sounds as tho you have researched this more than most - since you have lived in the world of purebred dogs and shows et al) and you do not know the pedigree or the health issues associated with the breed. I have to disagree with you re some of the health issues tho I do not know the probs associated with Welsh dogs. (You mean corgis???) I have a friend who raises corgis and he is an engineering prof by day and a dog hobbyist on the side (his wife is usually not too thrilled with the "hobby" because as I am sure you are aware, it is a VERY expensive hobby) - he has studied in depth his dogs and knows their relationship to the very first corgi that ever walked on the planet. I have a similar physician friend who while not having the time or desire to spend amt of money and time absolutely required to develop and show his dogs a credible breeder, knows that his Nfld dog is descended from the original Newfie pooch and has the family tree better delineated than I am certain his own human genealogy is completed, lol

So I really do not think from everything I have read, seen at dog shows and in my communication with credible purebred dog breeders, that purebreds have any more illnesses and problems than other dogs. The difference I suppose is that we have a much better idea of what to expect than if one adopted a cute Heinz 57 dog, we'd never know what the pedigree is so genetic issues would be a problem tho of course one hopes the dogs are going to be neutered and spayed, not "bred" because they are "so cute:" or some equally ridiculous notion that one wants he children to see a birth - you know, all the typical silly reasons that make no sense and have no concern for the animals in the long term. So, if I adopt another beagle or poodle - dogs I have had the pleasure of bringing up - I am more likely to have more info about their pedigree and what health issues their great grand dog had (tho if the dog I am looking at is from a champion, it is unlikely there are any health issues, other than those that may develop from extraneous variables). There is just no academically sanctioned as excellent peer reviewed double blind studies in any credible veterinary medicine journal )according to the two vets, one who is Pres of a prov association, one a renowned academic and clinician who teaches at the Vet School and another who routinely publishes and has been involved in studies at Cornell) that suppprts your thesis that these dogs are "RIFE with hereditary health issues!!: I would require much more information and data and proper research design before I read what your conclusions are.

I guess I am alarmed that those of us not thrilled with this "trend" toward the sale and purchase of these new so called designer dogs which if you are honest with yourself you will realize they are in fact mixed breed pooches - cute and cuddly (not the monsters you seem to think we assume they are - I honestly do not know how you arrived at that conclusion but of it was the same manner in which you came to your deduction about all purebred dogs being ill or having more illnesses or however or was you opined that - but mixed breed dogs with all the health issues and lack of knowledge abut their family history that can be so crucial is a serious problem that these wannabe "trend setters" (the sellers, I do not mean you, the buyer who is taken in by these people).

I suspect this tend will not last - especially when people realize that one of the key reasons for the purchase of these dogs - not as much dander and thus fewer allergies (a problem which may actually be medically solved by people in my field long before vets <g> tho to be fair, that is not their objective or mission in life) and the promise that the buyer will obtain the positive aspects of both breeds that created the puppies. No-one can promise that the offspring of any pairing will have certain characteristics. It does not take a PhD in biochemistry from Harvard to ascertain that! I even am not too thrilled with some of my colleagues who inform their patients - usually adult thank goodness! - that they have an 86% chance of developing metastatic breast cancer post op and post radiotherapy or post chemo!!!!! How does that in fact assist them and more significantly. what does it actually mean in the grand scheme of biochemistry and hematology and that person's life???

The same principles apply to two little dogs - and terriers are small. You may well have two terriers who are in good health and you can even run a panel of blood work and DNA procedures but those results will not inform you whether or not your dog is going to be healthy p- unless you do indeed have access to the parents' health records for several decades and this "trend" is "so new that it is not that likely. After al, what reputable breeder of one kind of species is going to veer off into this kind of new trend, not only jeopardizing his or her reputation but also developing dogs that hardly better the breed and in fact dilute the breed. It makes no sense!!!!

I am sure you love your mixed breed terrier type pooch and he is probably a prizewinner to you if not to the CKC who do not recognize these breeds and will certainly not be doing so. I just hope you did not pay some outraggagous price when you might have found a similar wonderful guy at any Rescue center or the SPCA (tho come to think of it you can find exactly what you want there since people are upset when the dog does not actually live up to their expectations (sigh!!) I realize you will not be one of those- you sound like a true dog lover and I applaud you for that and pls do not think I am judging you personally, It is that whole industry that concerns me!



Just one of the groups who rescue this cross breed of the new trendy dogs ppl give up once they get the notion that they've been sold something they did not plan on, poor doggies!!!

[OntarioGreys]

My daughter was partial to Westies...have you seen the list of genetic problems those little dogs can have? (I have a friend who owned 2 Westies and she confirmed that they were great little dogs with big, expensive, heart-wrenching problems.) I was looking at Schnauzers too as they are the same size and haircut as Welshies, but with more health issues and - oh, that yappy, high-pitched bark!!! Plus, my family were not excited about the Schnauzers. I spent hours of exhaustive research and found that most popular purebred dogs are rife with genetic problems due to over breeding and in-breeding. The Welsh Terrier was really the only breed I could find that has little or no genetic disorders. (I can't believe the breed is not more popular!!

If the welsh terrier was more popular it would have more genetic problems, because every Tom, Dick and Harry would be breeding them without doing genetic testing.

But the key word is "CAN HAVE" But if you searched for a responsible breeder who does genetic testing and breeds responsibly and get a puppy from only them then you won't have genetic issues to worry about. It is the pups from byb's, puppy mills, and less responsible breeders that will have those problems,

You have found some one that is mixing breeds, do you think they did genetic testing on the parents and checked the pedigrees to ensure the puppies produced who genetically clear of disease??? Not likely when they are breeding crossbreds, Did the breeder bother showing both parent as to prove the confirmed to breed standards , more likely not.




Schnauzer health issues
Cushing's Disease, Hypothyroidism, Mycobacterium Avium Infection, (wasting disease much like AIDS) Pancreatitis, Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA) , Urolithiasis — Urinary Tract Infections, Other genetically caused problems
also include hepatic shunts, (abnormal routing of the blood vessels in the liver) epilepsy, juvenile kidney failure, autoimmune and heart defects. These problems occur frequently enough to be mentioned.

Poodle Health issues

Addison's, Cushings, Hypothyroidism, Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA), Legg-Calve-Perthes, Epilepsy, Hip Dysplasia, Patellar Luxation, Optic Nerve Hypoplasia , Sebaceous Adenitis (SA), Von Willebrand's disease (vWD)


Without health clearances all the breeder has done is produced puppies with more potential for health problems , cross breeding does not make for healthy dogs

Breeding a German Shepherd who carries hip dysplasia with a Golden Retriever who carries hip dysplasia will give mixed breed puppies who carry or have hip dysplasia. Since most genetic defects are common to many different breeds, it is impossible to guarantee that a breeding of any two dogs will not result in defects unless you know the health history of those two dogs' ancestors and/or have had genetic testing on the dogs. Because of this, the most common genetic problems are nearly as common in the mixed breed population as they are in the purebred population.

And it is possible to check on purebred breeders to see if their claims of genetic testing is true by looking for the parents on the CERF and OFA websites or asking to see certificates so it is easy enough to confirm, if they are showing the parents that also can be confirm. When I was looking at chinese crested I also seen their was genetic health issues, some pretty severe and the reason I picked a breeder that did do genetic screening in order to lessen to risk of high vet bills like thousands spent to fix bad knees or rotting femor heads (legge-calves-perthe)

[clm]

Genetic problems occur in all breeds, it takes time to fine a responsible breeder. You should have as many questions for a breeder when you find one as they have for you. Question them about what problems their dogs are known to have, not just the breed but their breed lines specifically, and what they're doing to remedy their problems. An honest breeder will tell you the health problems that occur in their dogs. Just because you get a cross, doesn't mean your not going to get problems. Yappy dogs can be trained to not be yappy. Terriers are know to be nippy, if you want a terrier that isn't, again, time, patience and training. I knew someone who had the yappiest pom in the world, finally she had moved to a place where the yapping wasn't going to be tolerated. She saw a trainer and learned how to stop the behavior and she has a quiet pom now. That dog was over 8 years old when it was taught to be quieter. Kids don't come into this world without having to be taught some manners, dogs are the same.

Cindy

[Dealia]

I recently purchased what people have referred to as a "hybrid" puppy. She is 3/4 pug and 1/4 jack russel ( also known as a jug or jack-a-pug) I paid 500.00 for my puppy and I could not be happier. I thought long and hard about the purchase that I made and came to the realization that pugs have a lot of resperatory problems because their nose are too pushed in. Alot of pugs ended up having surgeory to open their nasal passages. Having even just a quarter of jack russel in my pug makes it so that her nose is not as pushed in and she is able to breath better. I also have a hard time listening to "dog lovers" who will value one dog over another because it is a purebred. At the end of the day it is still a life. People who are such big dog fans should not be so concerned with papers, and more with the companion. My dogs are always healthy and happy, thats what I paid for, not papers. Has anyone ever thought of this, I am a quarter Japanees, native canadian, french and Irish. Does that make me unpredicatble? Does it make me worth less than the next individual who is a "pure bred". I also truly believe that some "hybrid" breeders are just trying to create a more healthy puppy. For example; many whippets have bad joints, by breeding them to a dog like a golden retreiver you will be limiting the risk of joint problems. Therefor potentially creating a healthier puppy. Maybe its time we stop protecting breeds and start protecting dogs.

[Cram]

Hmm... it always annoys me when people assume that people with purebreds dislike or look down on mixed breed dogs. Many people have both, and I would be surprised if anyone on this board hated mixed breed dogs. We are dog lovers and concerned about the creation of mixed breeds because we love dogs and believe that purposefully making these hybrid dogs is contributing to the over population issues that we have and resulting in thousands of dogs been killed everyday because someone thought it would be better to make a puggle or schnoodle than encouraging people to look in rescues. We dislike the breeders, not the dogs, because they are more often than not trying to make MONEY rather than good, healthy companions for people. Please don't compare those of us who care about dogs to racists, you don't know anything about us and the comparison is just silly.

As for making the pugs "better", pugs have breathing issues because they have been carelessly overbred by people trying to make money off them. A good purebred pug from a responsible breeder with a known pedigree will almost definitely not have the respiratory issues you commonly see. The same thing is true for whippets and joint problems. If there is a legitimate need for a cross to occur to bring in a trait to better the breed, than it should be done properly with appropriate crossing and generations tracked for years and years. It shouldn't be sold as a first generation pup with a cutesy name for way too much money.

Papers don't make the dog, they make the breed. Without the standards, we wouldn't have the beautiful dog breeds we have today. And papers mean nothing if you didn't get your dog from a responsible breeder.

[itscindy]

Wow, this has become quite a thread. I'm enjoying the discussion, touchy as it is.

Cyberkitten - you misunderstand me on a couple of points:

I guess I am alarmed that those of us not thrilled with this "trend" toward the sale and purchase of these new so called designer dogs which if you are honest with yourself you will realize they are in fact mixed breed pooches - cute and cuddly (not the monsters you seem to think we assume they are - I honestly do not know how you arrived at that conclusion but of it was the same manner in which you came to your deduction

First of all, I didn't mention what I paid for my dog - you are assuming I paid a lot. I'm not sure what a lot is to you. In fact, she cost $500 which from what I can tell, is about the minimum one pays for a mixed breed dog these days! I paid $700 for my Welsh 14 years ago - they cost $1200 - $1500 now. The pup came fully guaranteed - can be returned ANYTIME for any reason. It wasn't the cost though. I was not looking for a designer dog, I was looking for a pet. I don't care that her designer name is Schnoodle...I prefer to call her a schnauzer-poodle cross. I had pored over all the pure breeds and found nothing that struck my fancy. I was kind of considering an Irish Terrier, cousin to my little Welsh, but members of my family weren't excited about the breed and I didn't think I had the energy for a full-blown terrier. Honestly, a Schnauzer-Poodle just seemed like a nice mix to me.

cute and cuddly (not the monsters you seem to think we assume they are - I honestly do not know how you arrived at that conclusion

By monster I was referring to the SIZE of the dog. I've known a few people who have come home with what they thought would be a small dog and wound up with a huge one once it was fully grown.

I have to disagree with you re some of the health issues tho I do not know the probs associated with Welsh dogs. (You mean corgis???)

No, I mean Welsh Terriers. They look like miniature Airedales, about the same size as a Fox Terrier. (Oh, I miss her!) Here's a link - take a look: http://www.pets.ca/breedprofiles/a/welshterrier/w3.htm

As for the shelters - I'm in Vancouver, we don't seem to have the variety and volume of dogs here. I did a cursory check last night of 1-800-save-a-pet or whatever it is and it was full of big black dogs, mostly adult or senior. Look, I can't go on defending this move I made. I thought the mix would work for my family, we were hurting from the loss of our Rozie and so didn't have the time to wait for the exact fit to come from a shelter. I couldn't glance down the road without tearing up...it had been 13 years since I went for a walk by myself. We needed a puppy for our aching hearts (I know I'm being dramatic but that's how it was) and as it turned out, we needed this one as soon as we saw her. She's a good pup, I don't think I paid too much, so far she's healthy. It was in the researching purebreds and reading the list of hereditary diseases that made me confused. Do I want to pay over a thousand dollars for a purebred that will wind up with all sorts of health problems? I realize that I could get the worst of both the schnauzer/poodle breeds but there's also the chance that I'll get the best in addition to or instead of...who knows?

My point when I started this thread is the point I still feel strongly about; that there is a need for well-bred mixed breed dogs. It's not possible though, given the money-grubbing nature of human-kind. I will never buy a puppy this way again. I am in fact toying with the idea of a second dog and I am perusing the shelter sites quietly.

[coppperbelle]

Originally Posted by itscindy

My point when I started this thread is the point I still feel strongly about; that there is a need for well-bred mixed breed dogs. It's not possible though, given the money-grubbing nature of human-kind. I will never buy a puppy this way again. I am in fact toying with the idea of a second dog and I am perusing the shelter sites quietly.

I am glad to hear you will never buy a puppy this way again. Doing so just encourages those that breed hybrid's to continue doing so taking homes away from the thousands of dogs in shelters. Check out www.petfinders.com There are thousands of available dogs that have been given up. They are the fortunate ones to have been saved by a rescue group or shelter. You will pay less than $500 for a rescue. Ours charges $250.00 and it comes neutered and vaccinated. Great deal!
As someone who works in rescue I can assure you that there are enough mixed breed dogs already and we don't need anyone to breed more.
The sad truth is that millions of dogs are put to sleep every year.

[Prin]

As for the shelters - I'm in Vancouver, we don't seem to have the variety and volume of dogs here. I did a cursory check last night of 1-800-save-a-pet or whatever it is and it was full of big black dogs, mostly adult or senior.

As Coppper said, and as I said a page ago, check petfinder. You can even search by size and age group. Here are a couple in your area, just to give you an idea.

http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/...?petid=7894144
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/...?petid=7908612
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/...?petid=7975014
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/...?petid=7814206
http://search.petfinder.com/petnote/...?petid=7182773

[CyberKitten]

Mea culpa re the link - I took it off. If you can add one, pls do - I was doing it in a rush and since I do not know good from bad Schnodle rescues, I just used the first one that claimed to be a rescue, I did not have enough time to research the issue even if I do know for certain that these kind of rescues exist.

Actually, I find $500 a lot for a mixed breed dog. My brother's CKC registered chocolate lab - who was show quality - but never showed - tho both parents are champions - cost somewhere around that, slighly more tho he may have got a discount since he knew the breeder. Not certain tho? I assumed mixed breed dogs would be in the are of $100-$200. You are correct in assuming I thought you meant I thought you may have paid $1500 - the going price for "designer" dogs here.

Not sure about the "monster" one - I was not thinking about a large dog. To me, a monster is a scary creature. I spend too much time with kids obviously, lol - but I do not think mixed breeds of any kind are scary or unlikeable. I don't see any difference between purebred and mixed bred except for the cost - I would pay for a well bred dog from a reputable breeder but I have high expectations in breeders so reputable to me prob includes about 5% of all so called breeders, I think it was you who noted that even amg breeders of purebreds, some are less than scrupulous (I realize they may not be the exact words but that was the meaning to me anyway) and I think, sadly, that is true. Anyone who is in for the money is not someone I would buy from. It is impossible to do this for the money and end up with well cared for puppies. From everyone I have seen do it, it is just not possible - that is accounting for the shows and the expense involved in that, trainers and behaviourists and vet bills and all the special puppy food, items for the dog - the same and more in some cases as a Rescue or a vet would possess - and there is no way one will make money. Anyone I know has lost money on it - and they do it as a hobby and their dogs are spoken for years in advance!! (Same as for my friends who raise kittens - like most reputable breeders, their Queens rarely give birth after the age of 3 and they have kittens once a year after their first year which means 2 litters but 2 healthy litters and even then, there is the occasional kitten that for whatever reason does not make it.) I don't mind caring for a litter of kittens but I could never be a breeder - I'd end up keeping them all (sigh!!) Or I would want to. I did raise several kittens thru hand feeding and they are so tough to finally adopt - I had a tough time parting with 2/4 - and I kept the other 2!!

I know this is a controversial topic and also know it is tough to find THE dog for your family or YOU, if you are unmarried. And while $500 is more than I would pay for a mixed breed dog, maybe that is the going rate in Vancouver. Now, granted if the $500 is the help pay for the costs of a reputable rescue - and even some of them are not so great or claim to do great things and do not -I might pay that. Emophasis on the "might". I would have to know quite a lot about the shelter and its history.

If he is a "designer" dog, you are fortunate you did not find a breeder who charged you more. As you know, some of them make outrageous claims re the genetics and no shedding and the best traits of both and so on - which are just impossible to promise. I do wish you luck - he will probably turn out just fine, if only because I believe dogs - despite their background - that are raised by good and caring owners tend to turn out just fine - and you sound like someone who really cares about her dogs!

I still mourn my "lost" pets so I can relate to you there. I have come to the conclusion one never gets over it - just as in the loss of so many patients I see who die but I did choose a specialty where there are more deaths than most - we never forget them, we move on and take that part of them still with us as we go through life! And try to recall the good times we shared to sustain us thru the days ahead!! Good luck with your new family member!

[itscindy]

Anyone I know has lost money on it - and they do it as a hobby and their dogs are spoken for years in advance!!

Precisely the problem. Good, ethical mixed breed breeders are few and far between. The only way to make money is to breed lots of dogs at once. I bought my Lola from a broker who led me to believe she farmed out her stud dog and then sold the resulting litter. This wasn't as bad as a pet store, I told myself. At least she has the dad (where was he? Out "on the job" of course!) Turns out she's a well-known puppy reseller...I didn't even know there was such a thing. Goodness knows where my little gem came from. After questioning she admitted that her dog was not the daddy but that the daddy belonged to a "friend" of hers. I wonder what sort of start little Lola had as the reseller administered her first shots at 6 weeks which tells me she was probably taken from her mom then. Also she's only had one dew claw removed...or it was torn off. The other front one is dangling, the back ones are anchored. I will have the front one removed when she is spayed. All this tells me she wasn't a well cared for puppy. She came to us shy and fearful but has REALLY come out of her shell through careful nurturing but still shows signs of separation anxiety, crying the whole time she is left alone in the house or her enclosure. She loves kids, loves other dogs and LOVES being outside and she is super smart. We love her and here's hoping.

[OntarioGreys]

Precisely the problem. Good, ethical mixed breed breeders are few and far between.

There is no such thing as an ethical breeder of mutts!!!

[itscindy]

There is no such thing as an ethical breeder of mutts!!!

Okay, now I think we're going to have to just agree to disagree and move on. What you're saying...or at least what I am interpreting, Ontario Grays, is that unless it's a purebred, it should not be. That, to me, is just silly. They're all DOGS!!! There's no more point talking about this one...we've come full-circle, I think!

[Prin]

Originally Posted by itscindy

What you're saying...or at least what I am interpreting, Ontario Grays, is that unless it's a purebred, it should not be. That, to me, is just silly. They're all DOGS!!! There's no more point talking about this one...we've come full-circle, I think!

Are you kidding me!? I've already explained this at least twice. This is ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. Maybe if I put it in point form you'll get it?

- ethical breeders BETTER THE BREED
- mutts ARE NOT A BREED
- Mutts are LOVEABLE and great pets, but should come from RESCUES and we should not encourage UNETHICAL breeders (see above) to breed them for profit by buying them.

Ok?!

And from your post above, you even say yourself that your breeder was a total con artist, so why are you defending them? It's just absurd!

[mummummum]

Originally Posted by itscindy

I just want what I want.

... when I want it with as little effort on my part as possible." would be the end of that kind of sentiment.

I'm sorry it'sCindy, I can't support your position in the least. Not when you look at the horrific conditions dogs who are enslaved under back-yard breeders and puppy mills must endure. Not when there are tens of thousands of dogs sitting in SPCA shelters, Animal Control Centres, Rescues and Foster Care hoping for a miracle, for someone who will take them home. Not when tens of thousands of those dogs, for whom the miracle doesn't come true, are killed every year.

There is no such thing as an ethical backyard breeder, there is only greed. And with all of those tens of thousands of dogs hoping for a miracle while they are waiting for death, there is no need for "designer" or "hybrid" dogs ~ only patience and a willingness to go "that extra mile" to "get what you want" is required.

[itscindy]

if you searched for a responsible breeder who does genetic testing and breeds responsibly and get a puppy from only them then you won't have genetic issues to worry about. It is the pups from byb's, puppy mills, and less responsible breeders that will have those problems,

Not everyone has the passion you do and knowledge about this topic to know what to look for when choosing a breeder. I got my Welsh from the only Welsh breeder that was in my province. I didn't look anywhere else, why would I? Were they ethical breeders? Who knows? Did they do genetic testing? Beats me! Who has the time to research every breeder and the savvy to know if they are having the wool pulled over their eyes? I haven't seen a single testimonial on any breeder's website that slams the breeder or complains about genetic problems in their dog...must mean they're all good ones. How many people have the savvy to know if the breeder, purebred or mutt, is trustworthy? (Although you've just pointed out that just because they are mutts the breeder is not ethical.) They just want a puppy. I'm not defending puppy mills and brokers. I was naive and I was misled.

My initial plea was that there be trustworthy breeders of mixed breed dogs, you know...one litter at a time, properly handled, carefully socialized, where you could meet the parents, check their disposition, that sort of thing. I loved my purebred but I didn't go over the edge about it, "Arian Nation" style! I wanted a mixed breed, thought it would be a nice change from a highly strung purebred. You can't make the world buy purebreds - they are not for everyone and overbreeding problems have made it worse, IMO. Look at German Shepherds. What a mess.

[Prin]

So are you just here to constantly go against the grain no matter how much we try to explain things to you or are you here to learn something?

Not everyone has the passion you do and knowledge about this topic to know what to look for when choosing a breeder.

After reading this thread, you should know better. If you don't, you haven't read this thread. Stop stereotyping about pure breeds and go read the thread.

[itscindy]

And I just want to add...I know I've incited many of you to riot and that was not my intention. I have not seen the puppy mills and conditions you speak of and I know it would break my heart if I had. I would probably be on the soapbox right along with you. I can't stand to look at the websites, I can't bear to see cruelty to animals. When I wrote my first post I was simply lamenting that there was nowhere to go to find a well-socialized, cared for mixed breed dog. I've seen mutts everywhere my whole life and met many, many happy owners. That must be what started the groundswell of these unethical breeders. (Have you ever met a cockapoo you didn't like? I haven't!) People love their mixed breed dogs...of course someone will attempt to recreate that mix which then becomes more popular and so on... tragically it just got way, WAY out of hand. Far more than when I was shopping for a pup 14 years ago. It's unfortunate what has happened as a result of greed. I'm sorry to be part of it and I wish there was another way. I still have to say, purebreds are not for everyone. Shelter rescues are not for every family.

And Mummmmmm:

... when I want it with as little effort on my part as possible." would be the end of that kind of sentiment.

that was uncalled for. I have made considerable effort to research breeds and choose the mix that best suited me and my family. Not a purebred. Not this time. Not a shelter rescue.

Kudos to all of you who adopt rescue dogs. I hope to do my part one day when I have the time, space and energy for it. Good luck.

[mummummum]

Originally Posted by itscindy

And Mummmmmm: that was uncalled for. I have made considerable effort to research breeds and choose the mix that best suited me and my family. Not a purebred. Not this time. Not a shelter rescue.

Researching breeds in order to choose the best possible mix for your family can hardly be compared to making the effort to educate yourself sufficiently so that you know "how to find a reputable breeder" and spending the time to find one. The fact that you dismissed shelter and rescue dogs as "someone else's socialization mistakes" tells me that perhaps you know very little about how many designer and hybrid mutts end up in shelters and rescues and some of the purely stupid reasons why.

In my world, getting what I want, when I want it and how I want it should never be at the expense of another being.

[Okami]

I love dogs of any type, crossed or not. With that being said I do not agree with unexperienced breeders breeding the first "cute" idea that comes into their mind. I'm sure all of the posters on this thread arent trying to insult the breed of your dog, but the person who breed it. It's not 100% garunteed that a dog will have problems when you cross it with another breed without researching, but gosh the risk is high. What I really frown upon is what happens to those dogs that have health issues due to the idiodicy of inexperienced mixed breeding. I mean think about it, if your mixed dog was fine, then great, but think of all the other ones that just didn't turn out so well.

While I have nothing against people who purchase from breeders.
I like to encourage people to take a look at shelters before they go to a breeder of any sort, sure it takes alot of time, effort, and alot more research. I'm not trying to stereotype here, but if you're not going to spend just that much time, effort, and research on your new family member, how much are you really care for it?

[coppperbelle]

I am not sure why you are having such a difficult time understanding and accepting what we are trying to say. Mixed breed dogs whether they be a Heinz 57 or a Cockapoo are just that, mixed breed dogs. They were not bred by reputable breeders, they were bred by backyard breeders, someone who wanted to show their children the miracle of birth or someone who couldn't give two poops about neutering their animal. Breeders who breed what you are looking for, mixed breed dogs, do so to make a buck, pure and simple. They don't take into account the well being or health of the parents, or even the puppies. When you buy from them you encourage them to continue breeding. By buying from them you take a home away from a shelter dog sentencing it to death. Before you respond to another post you need to do some research. Instead of putting your head in the sand look at the pictures of some of the dogs recently rescued from a puppy mill. It is not pretty and it will make you cringe but if you educate yourself you will understand where those of us who work so hard to rescue dogs are coming from. Look at the conditions these poor dogs lived in, read about the health and well being of these dogs. Google how many dogs are put to sleep everyday because they are mixed breeds who cannot find a home. Then when you have come back and respond honestly to the post. Until then, I think you are just being stubborn and selfish wanting what you want and not concerning yourself with the well being of animals.

[clm]

Originally Posted by itscindy

I got my Welsh from the only Welsh breeder that was in my province. I didn't look anywhere else, why would I?

itscindy, if you really want a welsh terrier, then you look everywhere possible. The Welsh Terrier club of America lists both American and Canadian Breeders, and the Canadian Kennel club would give you a list of breeders in Canada if you asked them. Just because there isn't a breeder in your province doesn't mean you can't get a puppy shipped to you from another province, or you can drive to another province or state to pick up a pup.

It's this whole idea of people insisting on being able to buy the puppy now that's part of the problem. Once you find a breeder you may have to wait months before you can even get a pup, if it's a rare breed it could be longer.

It's not rocket science to go on the web to find the American Welsh Terrier club or the Canadian kennel club, so please stop making excuses for not having the expertise of other people here, expertise has nothing to do with it, putting the time and effort into finding what you want is what your issue was all about and that's why you bought your pup the way you did (as adorable as it is), and that's why puppy mills and pet stores do so well, people don't care enough to take the time to find a responsible breeder or to look for a rescue dog.

Mixed breed breeders are not ethical, there is no such thing, they're in it to make money period.

Cindy

[Scott_B]

Agreed. Only one reputable Bullmastiff breeder is NS. I had my name in with them, Two breeders in New Brunswick and one in PEI. Ended up with a PEI pup. And I did my home work. Talked to the breeders vet. Called the university vet hospital and talked to them about the breeder. Talked to other breeders about them. They're listed on the Bullmastiff fanciers of Canada. They're CKC registered. BOTH parents have certified hips. I can see their pedigree. And I did most of all this in an afternoon. We drove to PEI twice to see them. And I did this because I wanted to make sure I was going to get a healthy pup, great temperament, etc and because I don't want to support a back yard breeder.

The only reason people breed mixed breeds is because of $$$. They see a market for naive people and exploit it at the expense of the dogs. They don't care about the health, temperament, or where the pups go. As long as they get cash, they're happy. Simple as that.

[chico2]

I'm sorry it'sCindy, I can't support your position in the least. Not when you look at the horrific conditions dogs who are enslaved under back-yard breeders and puppy mills must endure......

Having read all the arguments,what OG says,is the brunt of it and we have all seen how puppy-millers and BYB's operate and treat their animals.
Pure bred or not,all puppies are cute and if you are lucky to find a healthy pup from a questionable"breeder",good for you.
But what about the bitch(mama-dog)who when the last pup is sold,will once again have to produce more pups,often under horrid conditions,that is what we encourage buying a BYB,or pets-store pup:sad:

[athenamor]

When we first started considering getting a dog, I checked out books on breeds from the library, bought training books, general dog care books, and googled the internet. Then we went to the SPCA and the pound. At first we wanted a younger pup that would be able to keep up with my then 3yr old, and hopefully not get agitated easily by her activeness. When we arived at the pound we met a few in the introduction room, and ended up with an older mutt, who was calm and obedient, and who has proven himself to be a wonderful dog with wonderful traits. I was also happy to know I was giving him another chance to live. I was told older dogs are harder to adopt out.

If I was going to look for a breeder I would've researched the breeder as well, get numbers or other form of contact of past customers. I've heard of bad breeders, those that dont pay attention to the behavior traits of the parents or health problems.

I'm glad you found a great dog, itscindy, just keep your eyes open (as i'm sure you will, I've noticed that most of you guys are wonderful mommies and daddies) to any health problems that may arise later on. I think most of everyone's concern is making sure anyone reading this thread know they wont always be as lucky as you have been, or others on this board. The problems they have brought up are common and true.

[CyberKitten]

Oh boy, it seems like this debate just goes round and round and Cindi, I don't think you will find anyone here that agrees with your position.

Firstly, to whoever said there is no such thing as an ethical breder of mixed breeds, I wholeheartedly agree. I was referring to reputable breeders like the 5% who breed for the betterment of the breed, so on and so forth. You all kniow where I stand on that issue. If I ever bought a cat or dog or bunny (Don;t forbget the bunnies ), it would be from reseatrch and from a breeder or one I know.

Obviously, as Scott so eridely observed, one does have to do immense research in searching for a particulatr breed and even if you have tro travelm, you do it. You do not go to the first breeder you find and say, fine I'll but it even it is mixed breed because no reputable breeder raises mixed breed dogs (or cats or bunnies). They are either accidents, from a puppy mill or a back yard breeder - even the few who mean well still are not doing the ethical thing!!

I also am a bit taken aback that you seem to think we are rioting. What do you mean? That is a bit condesencing - speaking for myself, I am h=just politely tryinh to point out my position - which is usually the one I hear from mpst etrhical and caring aninimal lovers. No one who knows anything about anials rights woudl support unethical breeding of any kind. I am sorry but I thought you were suggesting you did this one time because you loomed everyhjwre and had no choice. I obviously missed the part where tyou did not do that.

You wrote "I was simply lamenting that there was nowhere to go to find a well-socialized, cared for mixed breed dog. I've seen mutts everywhere my whole life and met many, many happy owners. " Yes there are happy mutts and there are many more at the shelters in North America. I volunteer with a group called Siamese rescue and we get requests and have a meezer express to transport our babies (of all ages!) We habve placved Siamese cats from Pakistan, Britain, Montreal, the Maritimes even tho the group began in Virginia but is now affiliated with suimilar groups across the continent.

The same may well be tyrue of the breed you are searchinm for. And you know, if you take the time, I just bet you would find one in a shelter. 25% of all pets "surrendered" (a word I loathe in relation to giving up a family menmber) are pure bred and thus, there is a good chance you would have fiound your breed. And often, when a purebed is brought in, the fornmer owner has most of ther info you need. Granted, the doh won't be a show dog but if you are into that, you would not be biying a designer dog that is not recognized to participate in such events.

I disagree very much with there being nowhere to find a dog of your breed. If you really want a dog of that breed, you go to where the breed is, That is what 99% of diog lovers do. They research the breed, find the best breeder - and as we have already noted - those are few and far between!! So you may have to travel some - some breeders will sed a dog on a plane to you but I do not like that idea - I think one needs to go and viait the breeder and see for oneself and ask for references like Scott did with the Vet School in Charlottetown. I wuold travel anywhere to find an animal though God knows, there are so many just where I live - and the Maritimes have a small population!! I can just imagine what it is like in NYC or Toronto!!

I found some 10 Welsh Terriers in Petfinder (two were mixed breed with a Newfie and one was a cross with a corgi and one Weslhie was a baby!!). Of course, they were in Montana and Ohio and West Virginia but to me, that is not that far from Ontario - you live in Ont, correct? It is a rather short drive to Ohio from Ontario - I know because I do a lot of travelling with Drs without Borders and that route (even West Va , on route 83 or 81, is not that far for a dog you really want!!)n You can talk to the rescue shelter and they will of course investigate you - in the same way if you adopting a child - which you would want because they cannot adopt to just anyone who walks in the door (though certain ummentuionalble grouos do not do as thoroiugh a job as I;d like but that's another issue- just heard tday from a friend in Oregon who said the rescue shelter she went to see adopted out cats not even spayed or neutered!!!!) That is also true of breeders - one who does not spay or neuter their pet is also asking for trouble and contributing to the problem. Just because someone promises t- even in a contract - to have the surgery done- does not mean it happens, as I have seen happen, sigh!

My point is you did have many places to look and there are many more rescues and if you had called the organization that monitors or officiates over I guess is the better word over breeders of Welsh terriers, then they coiuld tell you what breeders have adults available or puppies that are pet quality or vets or breeders with rescues available for adoption. You have to do so muich homework. It took me two years to adopt my litte Seal Point girl tho I now have four since one came in through a Rescue - and I had been searching for a Blue Point with special needs for a year now - and my sphynx girls were the result of a death of a friend and a living will (Not a planned adoption but I dearly love them and they are well and truly a part if our family now!!!)

There just are NO ethical breeders of mixed breed dogs. Even those who mean well are not being ethical or honest with themselves if they thought about it. SDome are misguided - I'll grant them that but that means they need to educate themselves!!

[bassador_lover]

All dogs were mutts until they someone put a name on them and called it a breed. I have a Bassador and she is the best thing that ever happened to me. She is very smart, sweet and silly. I didn't pay anything for her, then again other than adoption fees I would never purchase a dog... Just as I wouldn't purchase a child.... A Bassador is NOT a mix between a large and small breed dog.. A Basset Hound is a big dog on short legs. They can weigh upwards to 60-70lbs. Any dog can have health issues but at least with my baby girl I know she was not INBRED.

[bassador_lover]

Originally Posted by Mockingcat

Ugh... every dog I've seen like that (a smaller dog crossed with a bigger breed) has invariably had serious health problems, and many have to be put to sleep.

A basset isn't a small dog it just has short legs. I have a Bassador that is the healthiest animal I have ever owned. As with any animal you have to control diet. What makes a pure bred any better? Because they have PAPERS? I would rather have my mixed mutts who I know haven't been inbred. The one pure bred with papers that we had ended up having to be put to sleep because of his seizures... He was an American Cocker...

[LavenderRott]

Originally Posted by bassador_lover

A basset isn't a small dog it just has short legs. I have a Bassador that is the healthiest animal I have ever owned. As with any animal you have to control diet. What makes a pure bred any better? Because they have PAPERS? I would rather have my mixed mutts who I know haven't been inbred. The one pure bred with papers that we had ended up having to be put to sleep because of his seizures... He was an American Cocker...

Diet isn't everything. You might want to do some research on labradors and bassets to see what genetic issues the breed has so that you know what to keep your eyes open for as your dog gets older.

Seizures is a common problem in cockers. Finding an ETHICAL breeder who doesn't breed dogs with history of epilepsy in family lines can help to ensure that you get a puppy that is as healthy as possible.

As for what makes a purebred better then a mutt - nothing. Registration papers are just paper unless you do your homework and make sure that the breeder you buy your puppy from makes sure that his/her dogs not only meet the standard as closely as possible but also do all genetic testing to make sure the puppies are as healthy as possible.

[bassador_lover]

I have done research. Do you think as a responsible dog lover I would walk blindly with an animal I saved. The Cocker we had was from someone who couldn't deal with his nasty attitude. As for my comment on diet and my bassador that was in reference to someone saying they have lots of back problems. If their diet is control and they don't get TOO HEAVY they don't have as many issues with the back.