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Major shifts in behaviour (LP - would especially love your insight here!)
Okay, so Chase is the bigger problem here, but Kailey certainly plays a role. They're both going on four years. We've been in our current house for one year with no major changes...but the behaviours have been especially bad in the past six months.
1) Counter Surfing - This has been an ongoing battle with Kailey (with the whole history of homelessness and emaciation), but a new behaviour for Chase over the past six months. We have always avoided the obvious "don't leave food on the counter". But Chase - I swear out of nowhere - started stealing off the counter and coffee table recently. A muffin, bowls of fruit salad....they will both pick dirty dishes out of the sink if they don't make it into the dishwasher. But Chase is even ballsier than his sis and he will steal as soon as you turn your back.....she at least waits until we leave the house. Bear in mind she was homeless for a while, so the battle is a little more understandable with her - though still not okay. But Chase? We used to be able to leave him in a room with a plate of food for 20 minutes and he wouldn't dream of touching it. Two months ago they plucked a dozen thawing pork chops out of the sink and went and ate them in our bed!!!! Chase was also making a habit of sneaking to the basement and eating the cat's food (dish kept up on top of a workbench). We had to put up a baby gate to keep him out of that room. 2) Aggression - This is ALL Chase. He was well-socialized as a pup and actually was more comfortable with males dogs than other females. When we adopted Kailey he could get a bit snippy with intact males - seemed protective of his new sis. It's only gotten worse We had a friend's GSD for a day in January and Chase tackled him! Pinned him against the shed, snarling and snapping. Then they got in a fight over a stick (DH had to step in). I had to tie Chase to me the rest of the day. And poor Kailey was so upset! She liked Dexter, but when the boys fought she laid down in a corner of the yard with her paw covering her eyes. Seriously. Now SHE, the former rescue who was terrified of everything and always lashed out, can go to a dog park yet there is no way on earth Chase can now (not that I really like dog parks....but you know what I mean). He will tolerate two males that we are neighbours with...but there is a chain link fence in between. But then there are two intact bassetts that just moved in behind us and he despises them....charges the fence whenever he see them. BTW, Chase was neutered at 6 mos and Kailey was spayed as soon as we rescued her at around age one. Dexter, the GSD, is about one y.o., neutered, a tad dominant but generally well-tempered. Chase will submit to Kailey in a second, no question - he always has. But any other dog....he's become a dominant little jerk. Last time we went to a dog park (like two years ago) an intact male Setter kept bugging Kailey and Chase tore out a hunk of his fur! We though intact males were the only problem....but then he went after Dexter. Who is over twice the size of Chase by the way... We're having a couple other issues, but these are the main two. I'll leave it here for now. PLEASE, any advice would be so appreciated. I always felt capable and in control of my dogs....but this has just become terrible. I do think exercise is part of it and I admit their walks have been lacking between winter and me battling tendonitis in my hips and a pretty nasty dout of depression. But still.....both these issues came on pretty surprisingly for Chase and I just don't know what happened to my sweet, obedient boy! Please just ask if you need any info or clarification.....I need to figure out where I'm going wrong here. I want to foster again but there's no way I can if I can't even control my own dogs! And no way on earth I could have a male in the house, that's for sure.
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Chase (Friendly Resident Wigglebum) - Border Collie/Lab/Shepherd X Kailey (Misunderstood Gentle Beauty) - GSD & foster failure #1 Rupert (Gold-Medal Winner of the 3 a.m. Kitty Destruction Olympics ) Heidi - RIP my sweet baby girl Last edited by Chaser; May 17th, 2011 at 10:44 AM. |
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Chaser,when it comes to dog-behavior,I have no clue
I just wanted to say I am sorry this is happening with your wonderful dogs.. I hope it is something like needing more exercise and things will change,if the weather ever turns. Or could it be he senses your health-problem and depression??
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"The cruelest animal is the Human animal" 3 kitties,Rocky(r.i.p my boy),Chico,Vinnie |
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Chase (Friendly Resident Wigglebum) - Border Collie/Lab/Shepherd X Kailey (Misunderstood Gentle Beauty) - GSD & foster failure #1 Rupert (Gold-Medal Winner of the 3 a.m. Kitty Destruction Olympics ) Heidi - RIP my sweet baby girl |
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I'm going to apologize in advance for the length of this reply .
Chaser, I wish I had some easy answers for you but, we too have been having our share of serious troubles with Penny. I can only tell you what's been working for us so far and hopefully some of it can be of some use to you. For your first scenario, the only thing that will work, imo, is to never ever let the dogs have a chance to get at food on counters, sinks, etc. If they only get lucky once a month, the fact that they do is extremely reinforcing and, you can bet they will keep trying (sort of how people get addicted to gambling). If they never find food over a long period of time, the behavior will extinguish. You can teach a 'leave it' but, it really wouldn't help for those times you can't supervise. Penny doesn't take food but Lucky might on the odd occasion. We now put food in the oven to thaw. You can use a pantry, the microwave, a cupboard, etc.. For your second issue, which is obviously serious, both management and training are what's needed. I'll let you know what we do here at the moment. Neither dogs are ever out in the yard unsupervised...and that doesn't mean we watch them through a window. We have to physically go out with them. Unfortunately, that means they are also never out at the same time as Penny now re-directs aggressively if anything excites her in the environment (whether it be negative or positive). So, what's working for us so far is that we try prevent her from getting to that point at all (but she's a little loopy so sometimes it can just be a bird in a tree that'll turn her into Cujo). If there's a dog, horse, people walking by, we try to re-direct her attention to us or even physically block her and then give her something else to do. We're fortunate that we have no neighbors in the back and both sides of the property are well covered so that the dogs can't see what's going on in those yards. For the front yard though, we're planting cedar along the fencing this Spring and will try to figure out something to cover the gates (we have a chain link fence). In your case with the Bassets, is there anyway you can block the visual access into their yard? Do the Bassets come right to the fence? So, although stressful at times, the management is the easy part. The training part not so easy for me but, we have noticed improvement. We do a lot more recalls and, slowly try to build up Penny's tolerance to stressors and that's by reconditioning her to see them as positive things, not things she has to be afraid of or aggressive towards. I think in Chase's case this is what he needs too. I'm going to pm stinkycat and millitntanimist as I believe they can explain the "how-to's" much better than I can. One thing we tried that didn't work, actually made the situation worse, was set down a whole bunch of new rules all at one time (we too thought that perhaps they were too spoiled). So suddenly everything was NILIF, no dogs on the bed, furniture, etc. I can't tell you what a mistake that was as it only increased the stress and anxiety Penny was feeling. However, our issue was that Penny started attacking Lucky and Nukka whereas that's not the case between Chase and Kailey, thank dog. Increasing their exercise did help dramatically, especially for Lucky. We started cycling with them (20 minute run is the equivalent of a 1 hour walk) and Lucky needs about 45 minutes to an hour of running per day. Problem now is, Lucky pulled the bike right out form under me and I got hurt . Dh is the one who takes him now as he outweighs me by 100lbs and Lucky isn't strong enough to unbalance the bike. Does Chase lunge after other animals/people when you're walking with him? Is your dh able to cycle with him (using an appropriate attachment of course) for about 20-30 mins. per day? If not, is there any way you can hire an experienced dog walker? I know without the exercise, it would be hell here...I'm already dreading next Winter . Oh, another thing, we no longer feed our guys out of bowls at all. Everything gets stuffed into their Kongs and is frozen/semi-frozen so that it takes them between 30mins. - 2 hours to eat each meal. It keeps them super busy and prevents them from getting into trouble out of boredom. I hope some of this helps you. I know too well what it's like to have everything suddenly go to hell in a handbasket .
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"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant |
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Although it's on the older side of average, Chase has just gone through social maturity, and is challenging other dogs because of it. It seems that so far he has not lost a fight, so he is thinking he's pretty special and can win them all.
As LP has said, counter surfing is a learned behaviour, and whatever started it is long behind you. Although you can do some things to train a dog not to touch edibles in your absence, the effort involved is high, and the success rate low. You are probably better off making the counter physically inaccessible to the dogs, so that you can continue to use your kitchen as you like. For the cats you could also consider putting a cat flap on a closed door, as you may at some point have your baby gates jumped. I disagree with LP on the likelihood of leadership to help you, but if you need to be 100% committed to it and not give up if the initial response is negative. Regardless of your decision in that area, I would book in a short obedience session with Chase every day or every other day. My focus for the sessions would be: Distance SIT with distractions - if you haven't trained it yet, add distance and distractions to a reliable sit slowly; if you have, practice it to reinforce. Sitting is a neutral behaviour, neither submissive nor dominant, that communicates between dogs, I don't want to fight, but I am not bowing down to you either. You need to reach the point where you can get a sit during the initial posturing, growling, or circling that precedes biting. COME with distractions - again, increase the difficulty slowly or if already trained, practice to reinforce. WATCH me - Fighting cannot start or continue without eye contact with the opponent. Having Chase look at YOU is incompatible with him looking at the other dog. His gaze towards you should be soft and non-confrontational, but his focus should be strong. LEAVE IT/OKAY - This can apply to anything, food, toys, other dogs. It does not necessarily mean touching is permanently forbidden, but it means you have veto power over his desires. For management, if you know a dog who can win against Chase but fights using skill and not injury, it would help him to lose a fight. Other than that, avoid further interactions with the type of dog that is setting him off at this time. Build up slowly from dogs he is fine with, to those that cause a small reaction, to those that get under his skin even more. Accept that he will have a limit that you will not surpass. Fence-running is quite instinctive for a shepherd, but if allowed to do so with neighbours, his level of excitement will increase, and he will begin to do it for the adrenaline rush. Work on your obedience towards this, and also teach him that the neighbour dogs are good. Pet them and talk to them, if Chase shows any sign of neutral or friendly behaviour towards them reward and praise him for it. A common mistake is to react by yelling or punishment, but these tend to increase aggression and animosity. |
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Where did I say that? Of course leadership helps. What I said was, "One thing we tried that didn't work, actually made the situation worse, was set down a whole bunch of new rules all at one time." In our case, with our particular dog, too much at one time is too much for her.
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"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant |
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Chase (Friendly Resident Wigglebum) - Border Collie/Lab/Shepherd X Kailey (Misunderstood Gentle Beauty) - GSD & foster failure #1 Rupert (Gold-Medal Winner of the 3 a.m. Kitty Destruction Olympics ) Heidi - RIP my sweet baby girl |
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So, let me just say this particular statement is wrong in so many ways IMO. How many dogs do you know who "fight with skill"? Me personally, I know none. And I know a ton of dogs! Dog fighting is banned/outlawed for a reason. Remember Vicks? It is abhorrent. It is dangerous. It is/can be deadly for the combatants involved. It can turn a previously happy dog around other dogs into a dog who is snappy, snarls, and goes for the throat. Even without provocation. It is plainly and simply wrong. I won't/don't feel I should have to provide proof of what I say as to most it is just common sense. Now I'd like to share a story with you. This story is about a dog who would never consider harming another animal (besides field mice). Other dogs were welcome around her. She even put up with cats. She loved everyone and their dogs. Everyone and their dogs loved her. One day about 10 years ago she was on the porch of her own home. Her own home folks. She left the comfort of her porch for some reason. Maybe to pee? I suppose the shepherd that was watching her from a distance felt she was fair game. Maybe he felt she was going up to his "home". I don't know. I'll never know what set him off. Anyway, he attacked this beautiful dog. This gentle dog. During the attack his partner (female) joined in. The gentle dog's owner was trying to get to her while screaming for the GD's owner to come get his dogs. By the time this attack ended this girl was left with so many injuries it took a long time for her to heal. There were around 270 stitches to various bites, tears, etc. on her body. Her chest was bruised from stem to stern. She was left a terrified, fearful dog. Since that time this dog will not let another dog, besides ones that live with her, near her. She snarls. She snaps. She goes for the throat if not pulled back. Why do I know this story so well? This dog is mine. I inherited her when I moved in with her owner. This incident happened just before I came to her home for the first time. I got to see first hand the damage a dog fight can do to a dog. I get to live with those results every day. Many members and past members of Pets have met my dog. They will tell you Sammy is the most gentle, loving dog they have met. They love her. So do I. They have not seen her around another dog. I have. Please, I beg you, before making a statement such as the one that was made - think about the possible outcome. I live with it daily. Thank you for letting me state my piece.
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Assumptions do nothing but make an ass out of u and me. We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD! |
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Chase (Friendly Resident Wigglebum) - Border Collie/Lab/Shepherd X Kailey (Misunderstood Gentle Beauty) - GSD & foster failure #1 Rupert (Gold-Medal Winner of the 3 a.m. Kitty Destruction Olympics ) Heidi - RIP my sweet baby girl |
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What kind of fencing do you have? Maybe a tarp or something attached to it and then another small fence a foot or so away (we temporarily used a strong chicken wire type galvanized fencing at our old home. Inexpensive and found at a hardware store) to prevent Chase and the Bassets from meeting nose to nose. If you need ideas, maybe you can take pics of the area and we can help out. It's not a permanent solution but I think management is key while you're working on teaching new behaviors so that you're setting yourselves up for success.
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"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant |
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I think seeing a qualified veterinary behaviorist or positive trainer who specializes in aggression is always your best bet.
but for what it's worth . . . Block off the fences, all of them: I think blocking the bassetts is good but I would also block the two males next door and/or visible access to the street and here's why: even if he is not reacting to them directly now, both could be creating barrier frustration which may be making him more reactive or increase his reactivity in future. It will help if you are out with him to re-direct any reaction and reward his non-reactive behavior, but the best situation for you to start working with him on his reactivity will be one where you can control all the variables. It doesn't have to be ugly. When we moved and we wanted to cover one of our fences (to prevent any barrier frustration before it even started) we picked up some willow fence from our local garden center and just laid it over the chain. Many neutered male dogs develop inter-male aggression to entire dogs, it's really common. Other than desensitization there is not much you are going to be able to do to. Shaping the absence (for this you will need an under control dog that Chase will react to): What you are going to be working with here is your dog's flight distance. All animals have a radius of reactivity to a stimulus (with wild animals this radius is much larger). You need to find the edge of your dog's flight distance, this is where looking at body language will be helpful to you. Chaser will probably start signaling long before he is about to become reactive. The sweet spot will be where he can acknowledge the other dog he dislikes but still be responsive to you. Build up his non-reactive response slowly from this point by shaping the absence of the behavior you don't want: his reactivity. Every positive response (looking at you, looking at the other dog with no reaction, looking away or offering another calming signal) gets a reward (something reeeeeally yummy). Any negative reaction means you try to re-direct with a “watch me” until he stops reacting or move him back until he can focus on you again. Over a period of sessions you will try to decrease this distance until he can greet the other dog politely – obviously you should never move him directly toward the trigger, come in sideways, circling. If he wants to interact let him, but always try to end things on a positive note. Safe greeting and avoidance should be your expectation here, not sociability. Here is a video of this procedure by Dr. Sophia Yin. Please note, as she says in her narration, she is using -R in the first demonstration because Podee is over-threshold. This is exactly what you don't want, dogs who are this aroused are incapable of learning. My personal preference is to achieve your focus without using a head halter - it disrupts a dog's body language and you really want your dog to be able to offer you their full attention without coercion - but it may be necessary if you are worried about your dog biting in excitement. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUCl6ndLN7Q Chaser has hit adulthood, he may have decided that he does not want to interact with other male dogs, and that's ok. He needs to learn to exist with them when necessary, and to avoid when he would otherwise become reactive. Anything else is a bonus. Depending on his drives, one strategy you could also try would be to work with him playing a focused game like fetch or doing obedience work he enjoys around his triggers (obviously not in a situation where the game could be interrupted, like the middle of the dog park). This will help him learn a positive avoidance of the things he doesn't like, teach him to focus on you, and build a better association with those triggers because they are the predictors of good things. Playing fetch (a game she will perform any of her behaviors to initiate) around her triggers drastically improved our shiba-malinois' reactivity. However, this will not work for every dog! It has the potential to make them more reactive if they get over-aroused by the game. It just boils down to what will work best for Chaser. A word on NILIF NILIF is a great tool, but it I think where you can run into problems is if you start utilizing it in the abstract. Your dog will never understand that they are allowed on the couch (for example) one day and not the next. They will, however, understand that there is an expectation of them if you start asking for a good behavior (like sit) before you invite them on the couch – or, if they are on the couch already, it could be asking for an “off” whose compliance is then rewarded with couch access. The point is not to earn privileges (privilege is a human construction, your dog does not understand “ I have been good all week so I am allowed on the couch now”) or remove access to resources until they “learn their place” but to have your dog offer good behavior for the things they want of their own accord. NILIF practiced this way will instil a level of self control in the dog and associate you with all of the resources they want. Exercise (this one's more for LP, but they would work for for you too One thing you could try with the bike would be to find yourself a springer (http://www.springeramerica.com/). They were originally designed as shock absorbers for police officers in the UK to prevent their dogs from pulling their bikes off balance while on patrol. Also, if your dogs are pullers, you could consider investing in a few X-backs and a kicksled for next winter . Seriously, its a lot of fun and a great workout for everybody (Moro is only about 35 pounds and she can pull me and the sled with no problem, but sometimes you have to run :P) Two books I think might really help http://www.amazon.com/Click-Calm-Hea...5806333&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Fight-Practica...5806641&sr=1-1 Good luck |
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