[Blackdog22]

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Yes, they are indeed lovely animals, but I am not sure about your classification of "designer dogs". Most tend to try and use such terms in a derogatory fashion, but I'll chock it up to a lack of information regarding the breed.

I really do apologize if I seemed derogatory, that was not my intention. I love all dogs, Heinz 57 mutts, purebreds, designer dogs.....
I use the term "designer dog" because IMO that is exactly what they are.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designer_dog

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

The canine evolves with society, and with societies needs or wants. Whereas a flock guardian was once a staple for a farmer, a majority of dog owners in today's society have no need to have livestock watched over, and hence their role in our lives continue to change. With the Labrador, the Yorkie, and the GSD being the top three breeds in the US in 2007, a vast majority are not being used for/or active in the tasks for which they were originally "designed" - Hunting, catching rats (yorkie), and herding.

I do agree that times have changed and our needs have evolved, that is obvious. I don't know much about Yorkie's, so I will not comment on them, however I do know that hundreds of labs compete each year in NAVHDA trials. I also have family that do guide work(sort of like, tourist hunting for those who don't know) and they never leave without the labs, they are vital for a good hunting trip.

As for GSD.....
You're right. Not many of them herd anymore, though I have heard of some with HIT it's not common. But in the GSD's defense, they were bred to be the total utilitarian dog....a dog that could do whatever was asked of it. The German Shepherd has served man well in it's years. Excelling in many different life saving careers........ I don't think I have to tell you how the GSD has served mankind, the list is endless. IMO the German Shepherd has served man in more venues then any other breed of dog. We have much to thank them for.

Both the Lab and GSD have adapted their purposes well and have served us beyond their original "use". If it aint' broke, why fix it?

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

In addition of course, breeds even once recognized continue to evolve and change as the discretion of the breeders and breed clubs.

I agree.
This is a TRAVESTY.
Many breeders are only in it for the money, to feed their egos, or both. Very few people are in dog breeding to preserve the breed and maintain the standard. Many people(yes, even the 'bigtime' fancy pants breeders with many happy clients) like to believe that they are "helping" the breed by showing dogs, getting titles and health testing...etc, unfortunately there is MUCH more to it then that.
I have met and spoken with many breeders, and I am convinced that most of them are betraying and polluting the breed they claim to love, simply by lack of knowledge or ignorance. Worse are the people that get into breeding with the intent to "improve" the breed, or line. Nothing good can come of it.

IMO breeders of today need to seriously start thinking of preserving not improving.

As for breed clubs and registries, most of them are useless and must take some responsibility for the fall of purebred dogs. Few registries demand dogs be health tested before being bred, titled or tempermant tested. Any half-wit with 2registered dogs can produce registered puppies.

Breeds changing and evolving at the discretion of breeders and breed clubs? Yeah. Is it good? One glance at the bargain finder tells me it isn't.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

No one can say that the GSD of today is the GSD of Von Stephanitz - not saying better or worse, simply different from the type that were present during Max's day.

The GSD is a breed that has been exploited beyond possible comprehension. Anyone who is involved with the breed knows there is a great divide. The GSD was very lucky to have such an involved and responsible breed founder. He laid everything out on the table. Told us how it should be and gave us the tools to accomplish it. He developed an entire system...all for the GSD. We had it easy, a foolproof blueprint. Of course, being human we messed it all up. Horribly. People began deviating away from Max's idea, twisting his words to fit their intentions.
Before long everything fell apart and now it seems beyond repair.

Some breeders stayed true and I think Max would be very pleased with many of the GSD of today.
Sure the good ones are few and far between, but if you know what to look for and you really take the time, you can find it.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

As I said, today's "recognized" breeds came from crossing of various other "breeds" over the years and only the timeline of their existence somehow separates the "recognized" breeds from the "non recognized" breeds.

That's a pretty crude generalization.
Off the top of my head I can think of 2 breeds that were recently(within last 10 years) recognized with the CKC that are FAR older then many CKC recognized breeds. The Cane Corso or the Neo, for instance. I dont think a breeds timeline has anything to do with being registered, but Im not on any type of breed council, so I really wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

However, the CKC/AKC/UKC etc accept new breeds almost every year and somehow a breeds status suddenly changes from a "designer breed", "mutt", or abomination into a legitimate breed courtesy of the kennel clubs magic wand.

Not a good thing IMO.
There are hundreds of registered breeds to choose from if someone wants a purebred dog. No need to create more to suit the needs of people.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

But I digress. lol.

Having said all of the above, yes, the Shiloh was bred by design. To create a good family dog with great size, intelligence, health, and temperament.

This is the exact reason why I do not condone the breeding or buying of these dogs. Any person who takes the time can find all of these traits in a well bred GSD(if the shepherd look is what your after) or if looks are not important(which they shouldn't be if the dog is just a pet) you can find a multitude of dogs in the shelter that fit this description. No need to further exploit our breed.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

And simply because the breed's timeline is a bit shorter than that of other breeds does not disqualify it as a legitimate breed.

No arguement there. I dont think timeline has any bearing on whether a breed is legitimate or not. What makes a breed legit to me is purpose.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

What legitimizes it as a breed is the organization and commitment of the breeders to drive towards the standard as written, to breed healthy sound well tempered dogs, participate in conformation and other such events (herding trials, etc), and to work towards eventually recognition.

That's your opinion, but IMO there is much more to it then that.

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

I cannot speak for all areas, but the breeds popularity in Ontario, as well as the north eastern US, has grown exponentially over the past decade. This is not due to breeders mass producing litters, but rather thru healthy dogs being true to the standard being bred.

How does popularity have any bearing on..well, anything?

Originally Posted by Bold Canine

Should the current trend continue, and the quality of the dog be maintained, then there is no reason not to expect the breed to gain full recognition as a breed at some point down the road - although, I know it is not a focus at this current time for the breed club in which I am involved.

If not to gain recognition and "legitimize" the breed, what is the intention of the breed club?





The rest of your post was basically about the characteristics of the breed and practices of breeders. Im not going to comment on any of that.

The thing that bothers me the most, that I can't comprehend about your breed, is why you are doing it.

Why create a pet, to supply people with pets, when thousands of worthy animals that have the EXACT SAME traits you are breeding for (size, health, coat, lovable tempermant) are dying namelessly in shelters.

It's my opinion that if you like a breed, research it and it has traits that are unmanagable for you, look at another breed! Don't try to create a hunting dog that doesn't sniff, or a lap dog that wont cuddle to suit your needs. I find it selfish.

I desperately LOVE pitbulls, I love everything about them...infact I love them more then I love GSD. But I do not own one. Why? because they have traits that I cannot sufficeintly manage. I didn't go out and buy some sort of "pitbull sub-breed" or try to "create my own" , I evaluated my situation and chose a breed that suited my needs.