Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > General Forum for cats and dogs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old January 11th, 2014, 12:15 PM
concernedperson concernedperson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
I dont know what to do

I'm concerned and angry but I'll try and word this best I can. Basically my mother has been hoarding dogs for quite some time. Shes obsessed with breeding and showing them and having some "perfect dog". I'm sure she keeps many so she has selection at hand. That would be one of the reasons shes doing this I'm sure. Some of them spend most of the day locked up in crates for easily 20 hours of each day. A couple have became so unattached from humans that they seem loco. My parents place is so dirty and smelly and badly damaged and dysfunctional. When mess isn't kept in check the odor of ammonia gets so bad its disgusting. You have to wear shoes inside all the time, thats how bad it is. People stopped visiting the house, im sure its for reasons mentioned. I apologize for venting but its a little hard not to at the moment. There is dogs in crates on 4 levels of the 2000 sq ft house, and 4 or 5 that have free range. They aren't even properly house broken and continuously use floors that are so badly damaged that they need replacing (again). It seems like my father has a full time job cleaning up dog waste and it saddens me to see it going on. I haven't even mentioned the noise, try to imagine 15 very vocal shelties barking and or crying to be fed or be let out of crates, its hell. I dont know what to do, report my mom? The concern I have with that is my father might be fined since he co owns the house. Also I have a huge love for dogs and do not want to see them taken away or put down. I'd like to see them go to nice homes where people can spoil and focus on them and enjoy them. Its very sad to see, all of it. And I dont know what to do about it if anything. I feel sorry for my dad, hes turning a blind eye until he ends up getting angry. Hes getting on in age and has a bad back and hip and the dogs are so much extra work for him. hes very soft hearted and most of the time just cleans after dogs, I feel sorry for him. I really hate this its very frustrating.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old January 11th, 2014, 12:41 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,791
You should call a No kill recuse shelter and meet them at your parents house and remove the dog. Then try to get your mom to go to a DR. for some help. Or ask a neighbor to report your mom . Someone has to take care of these poor dogs . I would just take the dogs out of the house if it was me.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old January 11th, 2014, 03:30 PM
concernedperson concernedperson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
Dogs, plural. There is 14 or 15 of them including some from a new litter last fall. Thats too dramatic I can't be responsible for doing that. She doesn't treat them "bad". But I'm against them being stuck in crates all the time wasting away for nothing, only going out a short time a few times a day to do business and run around a little. I suppose she thinks she isn't being unrealistic. Thats how it seems. Or she will do what she wants in order to accomplish whatever it is shes trying to accomplish at whatever cost. I don't know what to do, I'll probably just stop going to the house like others have done. I was hoping maybe there was someone I could get to have a talk to my dad and make him understand that she has a hoarding issue, and maybe he can get something started. Its like he seems to believe what she tells him, or hes denying or just not understanding. She has excuse after excuse as to why she hasn't found some of them homes. One being no one buys dogs around xmas. I found that ridiculous. The messes and extreme noise and damage doesnt seem to bother her much or at all. Sometimes I don't know how I can be related to her because I cant fathom what shes doing and how shes let the place get.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old January 11th, 2014, 04:33 PM
growler~GateKeeper's Avatar
growler~GateKeeper growler~GateKeeper is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 17,277
I think the first thing you should do it set up an appointment to talk to your parents family doctor, raise your concerns about the health issues the filthy condition of the house may be causing.

From there the doctor should have resources for you to speak to a mental health professional about an assessment regarding the hoarding as this can be a mental health condition.

After assessment the steps will be in place to start to have the house cleaned & some if not all the dogs removed & rehabilitated.
__________________
Avoid biting when a simple growl will do

The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying

Vindication ~ For all those pets who became sick or lost their lives from tainted pet food
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old January 12th, 2014, 06:18 PM
concernedperson concernedperson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
During a visit I mentioned it to my family doc, my mom sees the same one. Maybe that makes it uncomfortable for her because I told her my mom is hoarding dogs and she didn't have anything to say about it. I also told her its stressful etc. and I have trouble sleeping or even relaxing times Im there. It causes anxiety after a while and I have to leave to get away to escape that. My brother was over and he said he can't even think when dogs started barking. Its bad, I'm not exaggerating. I also have concerns about someone getting sick. I wish I could have someone talk to my dad about it. I know hes gets feeling stressed by it all and I dont know why he doesn't take charge and do anything. Its difficult to explain. I dont think he fully realizes the seriousness of it. He also thinks the day will come when my mom does what she says and find homes for some. The whole situation is very ****ed up.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old January 12th, 2014, 06:21 PM
concernedperson concernedperson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
edit. Sorry I didn't mean to re post.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old January 12th, 2014, 07:41 PM
Loki Love's Avatar
Loki Love Loki Love is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Rigaud, QC
Posts: 479
Can the SPCA not come in and do a home check?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old January 13th, 2014, 09:21 AM
marko's Avatar
marko marko is offline
Administrator - Pet lover
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Montreal Quebec Canada
Posts: 11,122
If I were in your shoes, I'd 100% report my mom anonymously to the SPCA or other agency.

You wrote ..."She doesn't treat them "bad". But I'm against them being stuck in crates all the time wasting away for nothing, only going out a short time a few times a day to do business and run around a little...."

Being confined to a cage for the majority of the day, (20 hours) and wasting away...IS TREATING THEM BAD. It is neglect..it might be criminal depending on where you live. Certainly it is immoral OR indicative of mental illness, but it needs to stop for the health of the dogs, the humans in that house and the state of disrepair to the house. You have every right to be upset and disgusted.

These dogs should be removed first.
THEN, imo deal with the mental health issue.

Really sorry you are going through this.
__________________
Please tactfully EDUCATE or IGNORE posters you don't agree with.
Please PM me & Include URLs and post #'s for any issues and it's my pleasure to help.
I'm firm - but fair. Mind the Rules and enjoy your stay.
Newcomers FAQ - How do I post on this BB?
Pet facebook group
Check out the Pet podcast
Follow me on Twitter
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old January 13th, 2014, 09:57 AM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,791
I agree with marko 100 %! The dogs muscle will deteriorate from a lack of exercises and they'll developed emotional issues that make harder to finds homes for them. It sound like your dad is in denial about your mother needing help. Can you talk their DR. and see if they can give you any ideas how to get help for your mom. But the dogs have to come first. This animal abused and is a crime in my state to treats pets this way.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old January 13th, 2014, 04:21 PM
Loki Love's Avatar
Loki Love Loki Love is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Rigaud, QC
Posts: 479
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
These dogs should be removed first.
THEN, imo deal with the mental health issue.
Completely agree.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old January 13th, 2014, 07:06 PM
concernedperson concernedperson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
I'm not so sure its a mental issue it seems to me she cares more about impressing people in the dog show circuits than about her family and the house. It seems like she cares most about having "top dogs" at whatever cost. Not even taking into account some of there well being, or ours. Ive told her what shes doing is mean and anyone that truly cares about dogs wouldnt be doing this, its sad to see. She just brushes it off. I dont like to speculate too much on everything because it winds up making me angry. But Ive always had those impressions.

I'm going to think about reporting her. I really dont want to go that route. As I said I don't want my dad to get in any trouble. He actually cares more about animals then my mom does it shows. We both just want them to have proper homes with owners that can spoil and focus attention on them. My dad isnt in denial, he complains about the situation to her often. She lies to him, said she had an add up to sell some, I've checked. I dont like my mom very much right now or have much respect for her, and thats sad. Everything about it is.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old January 13th, 2014, 07:34 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,791
I can't stress enough how importance it's to have the dogs removed from inhumane living conditions they're be kept in . This is cruelty and someone has to brave enough to speak up for these poor abused dogs.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old January 13th, 2014, 08:38 PM
Marty11's Avatar
Marty11 Marty11 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: East Gwillimbury, ON
Posts: 1,130
Please please do the right thing! Set those doggies free, call the authorities. Rescues will come in and take them and rehabilitate them and find homes.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old January 14th, 2014, 08:25 AM
Winston's Avatar
Winston Winston is offline
Mom of 3 precious Angels
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Posts: 7,067
If you live in Ontario please have a look at this site.

http://www.ontariospca.ca/what-we-do...l-cruelty.html

I also wanted to applaud you for coming forward to discuss such a sensitive subject with others. This is not easy and I fully understand that.

Please dont be part of the problem be a part of the solution!

If you are afraid of what may happen please be strong and think of those poor animals that do not have a voice! You are their ONLY Voice as I see it.

I am not trying to offend or upset you just speaking the facts.

Please do what you can!

Cindy
__________________
Tabitha April 10, 1995 - August 23, 2013
Bomber April 10, 1995 - July 12, 2010
Winston Nov 15, 1999 - September 15, 2011
Sophie Aug 30, 2011

"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
-Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old January 15th, 2014, 01:54 AM
growler~GateKeeper's Avatar
growler~GateKeeper growler~GateKeeper is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 17,277
Quote:
Originally Posted by marko View Post
These dogs should be removed first.
THEN, imo deal with the mental health issue.
I also agree, however, agencies such as SPCA, rescue groups etc, often cannot immediately remove animals unless they are in "critical distress" ie life threatening situations that require immediate medical attention. They still need search warrants to go onto the property, they legally have to give owners time to rectify the conditions or if the owner is willing & not coerced to legally sign over ownership of the animals.

Shelters are so full they don't have the space to take in every animal if they think / can be convinced by the owners that the proper steps will be taken to provide adequately for the animals within a specified time, they will do follow up visits etc to ensure compliance but it all takes time. Rescue organizations can not legally walk into someone's home & just take the animals regardless of condition - they would be sued six ways to Sunday.

The BC SPCA for example has a legal obligation to give owners a chance to fix the situation within a set timeline and are not allowed to immediately remove animals that are not in critical distress, they may take some of them but they still have to be legally signed over to the shelter.

As sad as it is, it's a fact that the living condition of animals are not taken as seriously as that of humans. If you can approach the situation from the human aspect that may get the desired result (of the animals have a better living situation) accomplished in a faster time frame.

If the condition of the house is deemed unsanitary or unlivable by the health department according to city bylaws or if adult protective services for your city deems there is a risk of self-neglect (your mom) or elder neglect (your dad) you will get results much faster. If your parents house is bad enough to be officially declared not sanitary for human habitation or the health risks to them are bad enough for them to be removed from the house by the health department, the animals will be removed immediately.


http://vet.tufts.edu/hoarding/pubhlth.htm

http://animal.discovery.com/tv-shows...ding-facts.htm

http://www.humanesociety.org/issues/.../hoarding.html

http://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/animal-hoarding

http://www.animalhoarding.com/
__________________
Avoid biting when a simple growl will do

The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying

Vindication ~ For all those pets who became sick or lost their lives from tainted pet food
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old January 15th, 2014, 03:57 PM
concernedperson concernedperson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
Thanks for the links. Perhaps I can find an easier option. I wish my dad would do something about it, its his house and ultimately should be his choice. and he dislikes it as much as I do hes made that clear. In the past Ive told my mom Id report it if she does not change it, when I got disgusted and ended up losing my temper with her. I dont much care what she thinks of me anyway, shes the one in the wrong. but I don't want my dad hating me. it feels like Im between a rock and a hard place.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old January 15th, 2014, 07:07 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,791
No ,it's the dogs that are in a very bad place .
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old January 15th, 2014, 10:55 PM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
concernedperson
I haven't been on this site in years, I don't comment much at all.
I do feel however that you should know you are not alone.
After being in the show world briefly I saw things I would rather erase from my memory and have seen homes that sound much like your moms.
Kudos to you for seeking help for her and the dogs, just don't feel like this is an isolated case.
Best of luck
__________________
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old January 16th, 2014, 09:34 PM
pitbulliest's Avatar
pitbulliest pitbulliest is offline
Love all creatures
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by concernedperson View Post
Thanks for the links. Perhaps I can find an easier option. I wish my dad would do something about it, its his house and ultimately should be his choice. and he dislikes it as much as I do hes made that clear. In the past Ive told my mom Id report it if she does not change it, when I got disgusted and ended up losing my temper with her. I dont much care what she thinks of me anyway, shes the one in the wrong. but I don't want my dad hating me. it feels like Im between a rock and a hard place.
The first and foremost beings in a bad place right now are the dogs. You need to go the route of having them removed from that house as soon as possible. If you do it now, you may be avoiding criminal prosecution for your mom and possibly your dad. IF YOU DO NOT, and someone else reports it as a witness, they may be in a lot of trouble, so I suggest you do it as soon as possible. I used to work as a cruelty investigator for the Toronto Humane Society so I can tell you that what your mother is doing is hoarding and it is cruelty. It is extremely unkind and distressful to the dogs. They deserve to be in a home where they are not crated the entire day and have proper socialization and care. Please take care of this asap. As you are now aware of this issue it IS YOUR responsibility to do something about it. If you refuse to for fear or because you don't want to get someone who is doing something very wrong in trouble, you are just as guilty. I am sorry if that sounds harsh but you need to help these animals now. That is really the only option you have if you care and want to speak on their behalf. Otherwise, you are right, they will just waste away because your parents aren't doing anything and you are refusing to act. Your mother will need some help. If she is hoarding dogs and concerned about titles and breeding, then yes, I hate to say it but she does have some mental instability and needs a professional so that this will not continue into the future and possibly get even worse.

I hope you make the right and only choice and please keep us updated as I am sure many of us are very worried and stressed about the situation these dogs are in.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old January 17th, 2014, 08:01 PM
concernedperson concernedperson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
Quote:
Originally Posted by erykah1310 View Post
concernedperson
I haven't been on this site in years, I don't comment much at all.
I do feel however that you should know you are not alone.
After being in the show world briefly I saw things I would rather erase from my memory and have seen homes that sound much like your moms.
Kudos to you for seeking help for her and the dogs, just don't feel like this is an isolated case.
Best of luck

When I was younger I went to a couple shows to help my mom get set up and get out of the city for a day and see some dogs. I quickly realized I didn't like it and never went back to another. Some of the people I met were really flakey and they treated their dogs like objects rather than living creatures.

Adding to this already difficult situation I was told my mom might be sick, she was in for day surgery this week. Timing is less then optimum to say the least. If animal workers visit I cant even imagine how bad it all might go.

And Im wondering if can I send a letter anonymously, will they act upon it? I've called in the past to send a complaint about noise and an over abundance of dogs hoping they would go out and see how bad the situation was and it would change. That was a couple years ago, its far worse now. Obviously nothing was done.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old January 17th, 2014, 09:20 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,791
It would be wasting time sending an anonymously letter you can made an anonymously phone call a lot faster. The dogs needs to removed from the inhumane treatment they're getting. And now your mother is sick the dogs could be at greater risk of dying from not being feed or getting water. You had already wasted 6 days in doing anything to help the dogs . There is only one thing to do, report your mother anonymously , it already Friday and the dogs still had not gotten any help , please think of what they're going through and do THE RIGHT THING! You have to give the dogs a voice or you'll have dead dogs to worry about. I don't think I can read this thread anymore as it way too upsetting for me.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old January 20th, 2014, 07:36 PM
concernedperson concernedperson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 8
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

Last edited by concernedperson; January 20th, 2014 at 07:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old January 21st, 2014, 09:19 AM
Winston's Avatar
Winston Winston is offline
Mom of 3 precious Angels
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Posts: 7,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by concernedperson View Post
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
Really????? This is all you can offer for folks who have come here and provided you with a few good examples of how you can help your family and these poor dogs.

You need to understand that you may not like the answers you get on a board about pets that has members from all over the world. We are all pet lovers here and no matter which country we live in WE DO NOT LIKE TO HEAR about INHUMANE living conditions for any animals. Some people here and I say some lightly because I am sure the numbers are pretty high are RESCUERS themselves who have taken in and rehabilitated animals that I am sure came from similiar conditions you have described here. So you need to understand that it is very difficult for people to come here and see what you have written and also seeing that you are NOT WILLING to help these poor dogs.

You are not being part of the solution here you are being part of the problem.

I am sorry if you dont like my comments but this is very very hard to read and not see anything done about it.

I hope you can live with your decision
__________________
Tabitha April 10, 1995 - August 23, 2013
Bomber April 10, 1995 - July 12, 2010
Winston Nov 15, 1999 - September 15, 2011
Sophie Aug 30, 2011

"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
-Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old January 21st, 2014, 09:37 AM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,791
If I knew where the dogs lived I would gladly report there is an animal cruelty animal cruelty case that needs taken care of right away. The OP is obstructing justice by NOT reporting her parents. She is as guilty as her parents and in my mind she is guiltier than her parents because she KNOW the dogs are being abused and it looking the other way! The OP should get a new username , she does not sound very concerned to me.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old January 21st, 2014, 10:29 AM
Marty11's Avatar
Marty11 Marty11 is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: East Gwillimbury, ON
Posts: 1,130
This "concerned person" has a problem, I also wish I could report it! I am having a hard time reading this as I know the dogs are deteriorating away. Very very SAD......
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old January 21st, 2014, 11:54 AM
Dog Dancer's Avatar
Dog Dancer Dog Dancer is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,566
Winston, you took the words out of my mouth - If the OP is not part of the solution then they are part of the problem.

It does not appear the OP is motivated enough to do anything to help the dogs. Sadly that means her mother won't get help either.

I think the last response from the OP says a lot.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old January 21st, 2014, 12:36 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,791
DD and you took the words right out my mouth , I was going to say the same thing about the OP last response . I feel horrible for the innocent victims that are not able to speak for themselves . It seem like the OP know what know what she needs to do, she just does not care enough to do anything to help the poor dogs.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old January 21st, 2014, 12:53 PM
Winston's Avatar
Winston Winston is offline
Mom of 3 precious Angels
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Hamilton Ontario
Posts: 7,067
Barkingdog some folks come here just to make statements like these to upset people. Unfortunately we sometimes never know if its true or not.
It breaks my heart too but there really is nothing that WE as members can do in this case. I just keep saying my prayers for those pups that cannot speak for themselves. I also beleive in KARMA and someday maybe the OP will see what is wrong about handling things the way they are if in fact this is a true story.
Cindy
__________________
Tabitha April 10, 1995 - August 23, 2013
Bomber April 10, 1995 - July 12, 2010
Winston Nov 15, 1999 - September 15, 2011
Sophie Aug 30, 2011

"UNTIL ONE HAS LOVED AN ANIMAL, PART OF THEIR SOUL REMAINS UNAWAKENED"
He is your friend, your partner, your defender, your dog. You are his life, his love, his leader. He will be yours, faithful and true, to the last beat of his heart. You owe it to him to be worthy of such devotion.
-Unknown
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old January 21st, 2014, 02:11 PM
momoftwofuzzies momoftwofuzzies is offline
Fuzz Lover
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 39
OP, we do understand how hard this must be for you as it is your parents who are keeping the dogs in these conditions. However, you have come to a board full of animal lovers and animal caregivers, and you asked us for advice which you don't want to take. Some of the people here have dedicated their lives to rescuing animals and to see you just hemming and hawing, it's pretty heartbreaking to all of us. You seem to want to help (or did in your beginning posts) but are having a hard time making the right decisions. Please call someone who can help! You need to be a voice for these dogs who can't speak for themselves and are being forced to live in these terrible conditions.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old January 21st, 2014, 02:50 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,791
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston View Post
Barkingdog some folks come here just to make statements like these to upset people. Unfortunately we sometimes never know if its true or not.
It breaks my heart too but there really is nothing that WE as members can do in this case. I just keep saying my prayers for those pups that cannot speak for themselves. I also beleive in KARMA and someday maybe the OP will see what is wrong about handling things the way they are if in fact this is a true story.
Cindy
This did cross my mind too, that maybe the OP is just making this up to see what kind of reactions they'll get. We'll never know and if this is really happen my heart goes out to the poor dogs.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:49 AM.