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  #1  
Old December 3rd, 2015, 01:32 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Can we talk about my sick dog?

I am ready to scream or cry, whatever comes first.

Purebred Minpin, nearly 4 years old. Been chasing possible food or environmental allergies on vets advice for 3 years now. Can't keep doing it. When I first met the dog, he was eating a lower quality chicken based food - he was switched up to acana and orijen - then switched over to raw about a year ago. We had to make a recipe of raw organs - blend them, add some vitamin powder from the vet and freeze in ice cube trays - he loves them this way. Progressively worse and worse, tried different things, tried allergy meds and of the long string of things that the vets told us to do, nothing has worked to date.

Had blood work done last week, platelet count is low - had to request the T4 be done and is 13 - low normal. This morning I had to demand, literally demand a thyroid blood test to rule out the possibliity, vet didn't think it was necessary - but the test was done. But he wanted to throw steroids and allergy meds at the dog. Had a long talk with a vet tech friend who feeds raw - he thinks it's possible the raw diet may be the only thing keeping this dog going.

This dog is going to chew and scratch himself to death, alopecia abound - all over his body now and it's the worst I have seen. Energy levels are dropping over the last year, he is definitely not overfed - but he's gained another 3 pounds since last december. He should be around 9 to 10 pounds - he's currently 14.5 and we can't get the weight off.

Appetite isn't always good, he will go 24 to 36 hours without eating at times.
breath stinks - when he burps or yawns for the last couple of months.
diarrhea - all too often for probably the last year. Farts can be horrendous.
Itchy ears - not always ear infections, ears are bald around the rim. Tail stump was always bald, always chewing on it.
Energy levels are getting lower and lower - noticed it moreso in the last year especially in the last 2 months.
Cold - his tolerance is definitely lower and getting worse. Being a small, short haired breed, he's not designed for cold but...
Licks his lips more often, seems to have thick saliva. His lips stick to his gums, gives him a funny grin.

Patience with other dogs has gotten low - no problems with people.
Periodcally yelps when we have to put on his collar. He hates being on leash, and we wrote it off. Is it a symptom of pain in the neck?

He seems to stop and stare periodically, it's like he's not sure where he is. Noticed this more in the last couple of months. We'll find him standing in the living room at 2 in the morning, just standing there staring off. Other times i'll catch him just standing here for minutes at a time - it's like he's spaced out.

He will hesitate when readying to jump on the couch or the bed now, before it was never an issue.


Am I crazy or are these signs of hypothyroidism? Anything else it can possibly be?
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  #2  
Old December 3rd, 2015, 02:22 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
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Have had your dog tested for Lyme disease , my dog would stop and sit still and act like he wasn't able to move and he had Lyme disease .
If have to beg your vet to run a test on your dog maybe you need to find another vet.
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  #3  
Old December 3rd, 2015, 02:44 PM
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Loki Love Loki Love is offline
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Not sure if it's thyroid, but what about yeast? Have you considered he may have a yeast infection?

Also, you may want to consider a different vet if the one you're seeing doesn't seem to be on board with your ideas, etc.
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 07:42 PM
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A lot of those symptoms are consistent with hypothyroidism--at least, our dogs shared a few of them before we got them on the thyroid meds.

When will you get the thyroid panel results?
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 07:45 PM
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Your dog is certainly giving you signs of pain and intolerance which is concerning, I would reccomend a 2nd opinion as well but regardless you have something definately going on. Have you looked at breed specific health issues.

I just took a brief look and some articles indicate cataracts and diabetes are common. Some of the symptoms sound like diabetes too. Have you also checked the teeth especially if you have stinky breath.

I hope you can find out whats going on. Let us know how you make out...

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Old December 3rd, 2015, 08:09 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Lyme doesn't fit into the symptoms. I keep a very close eye on this dog, check him physically once a week.

Yeast have a smell would it not? Other than his breath - which hasn't been an issue until the last month or two, there is no smell. There's no sign of skin infection at all. I've taken him into a dark room and under a bright flashlight, his skin is clear all over. He had a scrape test for mites, nothing.
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Old December 3rd, 2015, 09:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhynes View Post
Lyme doesn't fit into the symptoms. I keep a very close eye on this dog, check him physically once a week.

Yeast have a smell would it not? Other than his breath - which hasn't been an issue until the last month or two, there is no smell. There's no sign of skin infection at all. I've taken him into a dark room and under a bright flashlight, his skin is clear all over. He had a scrape test for mites, nothing.
A dog can have more than one kind wrong with it at the same time. Deer ticks are very hard to see on dogs .
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Old December 4th, 2015, 12:26 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Anything is possible... It's such a rare thing to hear about deer ticks around these parts. Have many friends with hunting dogs that spend much time in the woods and fields, they check their dogs carefully. Jagger gets checked after every run through the park, he's very short hair, not hard to spot any red spots on him. Vet asked if we ever saw red spots on his skin, thought he meant ringworm but maybe he was thinking lyme too.

I want to rule out the thyroid before throwing anything else at him - especially steroids.
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  #9  
Old December 4th, 2015, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by rhynes View Post
I want to rule out the thyroid before throwing anything else at him - especially steroids.
Good plan. It's better to start by elimination then guessing and trying various things all at once.
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  #10  
Old December 4th, 2015, 08:45 PM
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I would look at getting a second opinion. Skin cases are tough as they tend to take a long time to resolve. It sounds like your min pin has more than just skin issues though. We've started dogs on thyroid meds when they were at the same level as your pup. Ask for the medical records, including all test results and find someone else to take a look. A fresh set of eyes never hurts.

I believe your location was Edmonton. You have a number of AAHA accredited clinics there, that's where I would start.

https://www.aaha.org/pet_owner/about...49092669999999
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Old December 5th, 2015, 02:26 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston View Post
I just took a brief look and some articles indicate cataracts and diabetes are common. Some of the symptoms sound like diabetes too. Have you also checked the teeth especially if you have stinky breath.
Cindy
He's raw fed, teeth are incredible except for a little bit of plaque buildup at the top of his upper canines. Really difficult to find the right bone that forces him to chew with his canines. Gums are good. It's only when he burps in ones face. Something going on with the GI tract - when we see the holistic vet, we'll re-examine his raw diet for any possible deficiencies.

His full blood panel came back normal except for the borerline T4 and slightly low platelets - the last blood test from a year ago, platelets were normal. Amylase is a little low, and I'm not a vet, but wouldn't that make sense on a raw fed dog?

Last edited by rhynes; December 5th, 2015 at 02:49 PM.
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  #12  
Old December 5th, 2015, 02:31 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Took a chance and fed him a chicken thyroid a couple of days ago - low and behold, the itching and chewing has subsided. He's got a slight ear infection, still scratching his ears a bit but I'm hitting them with a bit of mometamax. He hasn't chewed, scratched or licked the rest of his body all morning. Should that give me a sense of excitement?


I don't know if feeding raw thyroid is the solution, but I took a chance, don't know if I want to chance it again. Chicken thyroid is very tiny, 2 small pieces of meat. I don't know how much thyroxine is in chicken thyroid but doses for hypo dogs are measured in mcg. If the raw thyroid really caused some of his issues to subside, then it's at least part of the problem.



Fingers crossed.
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  #13  
Old December 5th, 2015, 02:36 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digston View Post
I would look at getting a second opinion. Skin cases are tough as they tend to take a long time to resolve. It sounds like your min pin has more than just skin issues though. We've started dogs on thyroid meds when they were at the same level as your pup. Ask for the medical records, including all test results and find someone else to take a look. A fresh set of eyes never hurts.

I believe your location was Edmonton. You have a number of AAHA accredited clinics there, that's where I would start.

https://www.aaha.org/pet_owner/about...49092669999999
We've looked at all the issues common to minpins, actually went through the oil and bath treatment for Adenitis just in case. It wouldn't hurt the dog to try but no real change.

The issue here for me is the raw feeding - when the results come back, we're taking him in for a consult (and results) with a holistic DVM. I really want someone with raw feeding experience to take us through the results - as a second opinion.
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Old December 5th, 2015, 11:28 PM
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Hello:
Not familiar with the term "chicken thyroid". But I have been following your post for a little while. Glad to see that you are going to see a holistic vet in regards to the issues that your dog is suffering.
Having worked with a cat for years with digestive issues, near the end of her time, I found that the problem she was suffering from was a protein intolerance, which really raised havoc when she was given chicken.
The problem was that the vets were treating her for irritable bowel disease, and she had irritable bowel syndrome. The 2 are so closely related and we didn't pick up on it until it was basically too late for her.
So I was just thinking that it might be wise to ask the holistic vet about the protein intolerance and get their opinion. Some of the symptoms that you have described - diarhea, gas, - for an 8 lb cat, the gas attack would almost put you out of the house it was so strong. And her breath at times would give you the impression that the tail was put on the wrong end.
Our thoughts are with you in these trying times.
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Old December 6th, 2015, 12:09 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Originally Posted by Reg View Post
Hello:
Not familiar with the term "chicken thyroid". But I have been following your post for a little while. Glad to see that you are going to see a holistic vet in regards to the issues that your dog is suffering.
Having worked with a cat for years with digestive issues, near the end of her time, I found that the problem she was suffering from was a protein intolerance, which really raised havoc when she was given chicken.
The problem was that the vets were treating her for irritable bowel disease, and she had irritable bowel syndrome. The 2 are so closely related and we didn't pick up on it until it was basically too late for her.
So I was just thinking that it might be wise to ask the holistic vet about the protein intolerance and get their opinion. Some of the symptoms that you have described - diarhea, gas, - for an 8 lb cat, the gas attack would almost put you out of the house it was so strong. And her breath at times would give you the impression that the tail was put on the wrong end.
Our thoughts are with you in these trying times.
Thanks for that Reg...

Fed him a raw thyroid from a chicken just to see what the results would be... Haven't a clue how much thyroxine is in a raw thyroid but we seen positive results.

Definitely will be sitting with a holistic DVM to evaluate his diet - stay raw, switch to a more barf related, add enzymes etc.
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Old December 6th, 2015, 03:16 PM
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Hi:
Missed this yesterday.

Quote:
Really difficult to find the right bone that forces him to chew with his canines. Gums are good.
Years ago I had a vet suggest using oxtails for our dogs to remove tartar and plaque build up, due to the fact that they are so sinewy and stringy. It's like chewing on a ball of floss thread. You may want to look into this - best place to find them would be in a good butcher shop.
One other thing you might mention to your holistic people is essential fatty acids - get their opinion on them. They have a lot of benefits, especially to skin problems and digestive ailments. One I was thinking of is Krill Oil. There is one from New Zealand that is supposed to be better than Krill Oil, but it might have to be imported from the US and it is expensive. Krill Oil is also pricey, but I use it on our cats. It has done away with the dandruff that one of our kitties had.
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Old December 6th, 2015, 03:54 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Like I say, the rest of his teeth are incredible, just that bit of plaque at the gum line of his upper canines. Can pick up oxtail at any grocer, just so bloody expensive.

He had a poop last night after nearly 2 days, came out thick and gluey. Boiled down a whole chicken this morning in straight water. Fed him some broth and cooked chicken breast to see if it gives his GI a rest. He loves the broth, it's got a very mild chicken flavor and if nothing else, will encourage hydration. Will definitely get the holistic DVM to check out his current diet, see if we are missing anything.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 10:48 PM
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Ok. T4 results came back today. Last week the T4 was 13, now it's 24. TSH is 0.54, and free T4 is 18.1. I assumed the vet would be doing a full panel - but nothing on T3 or antibodies so thyroiditis can't be ruled out.


I fed him another chicken thyroid last night and literally, since friday night he's had the most changes on the positive side I've seen in 3 years. He's alert, energetic, hungry again, not scratching or chewing himself, the list goes on...

I really don't get it.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 01:46 PM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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Ok. Love this new vet, she's straight up and no nonsense - and zero arrogance.

She believes he's hypothyroid and wants to do a synthroid test for 3 to 6 months. Need to get a complete blood work up done on him again as she believes something is wrong with the tests that were done in the past. Doesn't look like valid results from an external lab.

Globulin is low which would explain his GI issues. He's been on a soup diet for the last couple of weeks - finely ground meat and bone boiled with some vegetables and he loves it. He's lost a pound and a half in 2 weeks, but has been pooping like a horse. Probably bunged up and now cleaned out so that's good news.

She wants to keep him on this diet for at least another 2 months, but pork only as a protein to rule out protein intolerance.


So upward we go after 3 years of going sideways and a dog that was getting sicker.
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Old December 19th, 2015, 10:43 PM
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Glad to hear that you have found a vet that you can work with. It really means so much for your animal and piece of mind, not to mention the wallet. It sounds like you have an integrative vet who is knowledgeable in nutrition which is going to help greatly. Something I've found is that it is imperative to the diet. It was almost an impossibility in our house with 4 other cats.
With it coming up on the Christmas season and if you have guests coming in, make it known to them that they are not to give the dog treats.

It will be interesting to watch the progression. Wish you a very Merry Christmas
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Old December 20th, 2015, 08:57 AM
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Great news!
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Old December 20th, 2015, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by rhynes View Post
Ok. Love this new vet, she's straight up and no nonsense - and zero arrogance.
Glad to see you have found a vet who is on board with you! Is she at the Edmonton Holistic Vet Clinic on Whyte Ave? We see Steve Marsden. He literally saved our baby, Nanooks, life, and is now helping with our second boy who has liver disease.

Did she recommend sending the Thyroid panel to Jean Dodds? If it's Edmonton Holistic, I'm sure they would. But if it's not, maybe ask her where she's sending it. Jean Dodds is amazing and her Thyroid panel is the best. She also takes in to consideration the age/breed/sex and medical history so it's tailored specifically for your dog.

Good luck
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Old December 21st, 2015, 12:13 AM
rhynes rhynes is offline
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So far there's alot of piece of mind Reg, giving him synthroid daily now and the results are great so far. At least the fear of feeding him thyroxine is gone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rgeurts View Post
Glad to see you have found a vet who is on board with you! Is she at the Edmonton Holistic Vet Clinic on Whyte Ave? We see Steve Marsden. He literally saved our baby, Nanooks, life, and is now helping with our second boy who has liver disease.

Did she recommend sending the Thyroid panel to Jean Dodds? If it's Edmonton Holistic, I'm sure they would. But if it's not, maybe ask her where she's sending it. Jean Dodds is amazing and her Thyroid panel is the best. She also takes in to consideration the age/breed/sex and medical history so it's tailored specifically for your dog.

Good luck
Went in to talk with Edmonton holistic, very good atmosphere, friendly staff but Monday to Friday hours just don't work for us.

Dropped into Town Centre Veterinary to talk to them, same kind of atmosphere and friendly staff - they recommended we meet with Dr. Sheri Lund. She was great with our dog and with us, took us through the blood results backed with the knowledge of raw feeding and such. Explained possible allergies, but believes he is hypo and has possible protein issues due to globulin levels - which is what I suspected anyway. 2 other vets said everything was normal, trust in strict western medicine is gone at this point

Such a nice change to have a vet on the same page as us. Blood work will be done soon, not sure where the results will be sent but I have done much reading on Jean Dodds, the woman definitely knows her work.
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Old December 29th, 2015, 06:10 AM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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Originally Posted by rhynes View Post
Ok. T4 results came back today. Last week the T4 was 13, now it's 24. TSH is 0.54, and free T4 is 18.1. I assumed the vet would be doing a full panel - but nothing on T3 or antibodies so thyroiditis can't be ruled out.

.....
Just as an FYI, the TSH in dogs is highly unreliable. It's wrong in about 30% of the dogs, something about having an extra feedback look that we don't have....

http://www.antechdiagnostics.com/Mai...ry-2011-3.aspx
cTSH: The diagnostic sensitivity of the cTSH assay is poor compared to the TSH assay in people (70% versus 95%). In otherwords, up to 30% of dogs with hypothyroidism will have normal or low cTSH results. An elevated cTSH level is therefore consistent with hypothyroidism but a low or normal level doesn’t rule out the diagnosis. This subset of hypothyroid dogs with normal or low TSH levels dogs are thought to produce a different bioform of TSH that the assay doesn’t recognize.
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Old January 1st, 2016, 06:48 PM
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So far there's alot of piece of mind Reg, giving him synthroid daily now and the results are great so far. At least the fear of feeding him thyroxine is gone.



Went in to talk with Edmonton holistic, very good atmosphere, friendly staff but Monday to Friday hours just don't work for us.

Dropped into Town Centre Veterinary to talk to them, same kind of atmosphere and friendly staff - they recommended we meet with Dr. Sheri Lund. She was great with our dog and with us, took us through the blood results backed with the knowledge of raw feeding and such. Explained possible allergies, but believes he is hypo and has possible protein issues due to globulin levels - which is what I suspected anyway. 2 other vets said everything was normal, trust in strict western medicine is gone at this point

Such a nice change to have a vet on the same page as us. Blood work will be done soon, not sure where the results will be sent but I have done much reading on Jean Dodds, the woman definitely knows her work.
Dr. Lund was recommended to us around the same time as Steve Marsden. I have heard many good things about her as well, and you have to do what works for your schedule! Glad you found someone on the same page. After seeing Steve for the last 5 years, I don't think I could ever go back to a western vet. I just don't trust the medications and often, backwards thinking. And I would think that Dr. Lund would be using Jean Dodds. All the holistic/TCM vets I know of do. She's fantastic. Good luck
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Old January 2nd, 2016, 01:53 PM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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Is the globulin high or low? What about the albumin?
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Old January 12th, 2016, 03:57 AM
healingpets healingpets is offline
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energy healing

hi... is he better now?
i joined only yesterday nd i dunno if this is the kind of thing people talk about...but energy healing works.
i have used it for my pets several times and it is really effective.
pranic healing is given distance mode also....
google fr healers in ca.
hope this works fr your dog.

Last edited by hazelrunpack; January 12th, 2016 at 11:40 AM. Reason: No self-promotion, pls
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