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  #1  
Old October 19th, 2004, 11:41 AM
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Dog Parks and BSL

Since the BSL thread seems to have taken a turn towards a dog park thread, I thought I would start a new thread.

I don't take my dogs to dog parks. Never felt the need, quite frankly. As a rottweiler owner, I am well aware of the fact that if my dog was involved in any altercation, she would automatically be blamed.

I guess I have never made a connection between dog parks and BSL.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 11:53 AM
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Lightbulb

I guess I'll post whatever i posted in the other thread in here:

Pit Bulls do NOT belong in dog parks. NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS.
Read the article and take it to heart as you should:

http://www.pbrc.net/dogpark.html
http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogpark.cfm

Just remember that a responsible pittie owner will not risk it. Never trust a pit bull NOT to fight with another dog. That is what they were bred for. Every negative situation that your dog is involved with only adds to the negative stereotypes/media, and makes it harder for me to own my beloved pet.
Think twice!

Thank you.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 01:44 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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I see a connection between dog parks and BSL. The most human friendly and sweet pit bull can attack and kill another dog in an instant. If this happens in a dog park with a big audience, it will end up in the headlines as "Pit Bull Savages Pet in Park", even if the other dog was the aggressor. BSL is the next logical step.

These incidents result not only in possibly two dead dogs, but hurts all responsible owners (like me) and our dogs. No pit bull owner who has the least knowledge, cares about his/her dog, or the breed, OR the rights of other people would EVER take a pit bull to a dog park once it's past 5 or 6 months old.

If you do, you are aiding and abetting the slaughter of these dogs, helping pass BSL laws, and giving fuel to the people who want them wiped off the face of the earth.
I would never do anything to hurt my dog, or other's dogs.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 01:48 PM
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Just one opinion...

Other dogs. We already know that responsible dog owners actively maintain well-socialized dogs, meaning they give their dogs socialization experiences on a regular basis. So, there is no concern about responsibly owned dogs being too assertive or frightened when around other dogs. A well-socialized dog knows how to interact with dogs of all temperaments. If another dog is too rough, they know to extricate themselves. If another dog is submissive, they know to play more gently. Really responsible dog owners are aware that they must take an active role in ensuring their dogs meet others of all temperament types. It just won’’t do, only allowing one’’s dog to play with dogs one knows well. Dogs need to learn dog language from other dogs, not humans. That means meeting strange dogs on a regular basis.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 01:59 PM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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Meeting strange dogs on a regular basis in a CONTROLLED environment sure! But at a dog park? It's organized chaos!! There's NO control in those parks, as much as you would like to believe that you have control over your dog, they are dogs!!! Once a fight is engaged they will fight! No voice commands will stop that! My dog is in socialized experiences EVERYDAY - just getting on and off the elevator is a start!!! These dogs do NOT need to be in uncontrolled environments to learn body language from another dog...

ADDED: Can you please provide a link to where you found that information on goodpooch.com, I am having a difficult time finding it...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukieboy
Just one opinion...

Other dogs. We already know that responsible dog owners actively maintain well-socialized dogs, meaning they give their dogs socialization experiences on a regular basis. So, there is no concern about responsibly owned dogs being too assertive or frightened when around other dogs. A well-socialized dog knows how to interact with dogs of all temperaments. If another dog is too rough, they know to extricate themselves. If another dog is submissive, they know to play more gently. Really responsible dog owners are aware that they must take an active role in ensuring their dogs meet others of all temperament types. It just won’’t do, only allowing one’’s dog to play with dogs one knows well. Dogs need to learn dog language from other dogs, not humans. That means meeting strange dogs on a regular basis.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 02:04 PM
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Well, that is all well and good, but I find I can not control who brings dogs to dog parks. While most of them may be well socialized, well trained dogs - some of them are not. Since rottweilers are often the second breed of dogs listed on ban lists, I prefer not to let my dogs associate with dogs who may not be so friendly. As I stated, if Chase were to defend herself from another dog attacking her, it would be her fault because of her breed. Not fair, but then nothing in life is.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 02:59 PM
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LR you are so right I take Bud to High Park but we do not make dog hill a regular stop. The fact that Buddy is big is reason enough for people to blame him if anything occurs even if he is not involved somehow it always comes back to him. Bud by the way will run away from any dog that even barks at him. He is very timid with aggressive dogs and perfers to be nowhere near them. The only time we stay is when his Mastiff buddies are there and that usually seems to clear everybody else out when they play, which is fine with us. These guys can knock you over when they run and play they are not the most agile dogs around. But I agree most of the time they are a disaster waiting to happen. I really think it depends on the dogs and the owners who are there but I find it is better to avoid it. I found the samething when I had Boo he would get blamed for everything that happened. So I can imagine the hassles if he was a pit bull.
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Old October 19th, 2004, 03:06 PM
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Requested Link

Here is the link:

http://www.goodpooch.com/ISSUES/etiquette.htm

and for your further consideration:

The dog you want living next door is one whose owner regularly takes it for off-leash socialization, and one that is capable of obediently walking off-leash, alongside its owner. This kind of dog is extremely unlikely to bite a stranger walking down the street, or anyone else, for that matter, because it has learned how to control its own behaviour through distraction. Not only that, it's probably taken many more places than dogs that require physical restraint. This further enhances the level of socialization of that dog.

The dog you DON'T want living next door is one that is always physically restrained, is rarely taken out in public, and is incapable of controlling its behaviour without a physical restraint of some kind. In short, the dog you don't want to encounter is one that is rarely outside its fenced yard, but when it is, is usually walked on a tight leash and rarely allowed to interact with strange people and dogs.

- Goodpooch.com
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Old October 19th, 2004, 05:57 PM
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as you all know i support dog parks whole heartedly but BSL came in here for PB a long time ago so we dont meet any. but there are other types of dogs such as the three racing greyhonds that frequent our dog park and they are muzzled as a legal requrement os i dont really care if they are there or not, if i see a greyhound and it has a muzzle on i dont care and i have never seen anyone brave enough over here to take a GH out without muzzzle as it will get you huge fines and everyone will dob you in as bsl has given them a bad rap and the fear tactics have been very successful esp for those with little dogs, i personally like greyhounds, thay are said to be wonderful dogs and very kind (im not talking the rcers here).

but as far as dogs walking unleased on the way to the park, absolutly no way. my girl will do it, happy to walk on my left side never going past my knee, but cars are big and fast and kill a dog in a secound, there are so many distractions and unpredictable moments it is just dangerous to walk unleashed on the road unless you live in the middle of nowhere.

recently a woman here was walking her three dogs, 2 on leash 1 little dog not on leash and always did this. 2 big pig dogs (muscle breeds) came out and attacked, the little dog off leach was chased onto the raod and was killed instantly and 3 cars were involved in the accident, sadly the dog died but thankfully that is where the injuries stopped, it could have been alot worse for all involved.

and any dog attack, i have a GSD and a nice pair of steel cap work boots i wear everywhere so i dont have much care for attack, and in 8 yrs my girl has been in plenty fo scuffles with other dogs and she is not mentally screwed by it or anything, it is just part of dog life and something they do naturally, the old pecking order, my chickens even did this and would peck a young one to death if he didnt like it, dogs need to discover all parts of socialisation including scuffles (she has never been injured by another or injured another in all these years ) i find 99.9% of scuffles are all noise and hackles and not much more.

but we dont and have never lived in an over populated area like a city or similar os we dont have a huge concentration of dogs here, we only see a few a day if that, most of our fights have happened on the way to the park walking past houses with moron owners in them

food for thought
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Old October 19th, 2004, 08:27 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Quote:
The dog you want living next door is one whose owner regularly takes it for off-leash socialization, and one that is capable of obediently walking off-leash, alongside its owner.
Yes, in ideal world, we could all do this. Unfortunately we have to live in the real world.

Most people walking off leash dogs have no control over them, as I see day after day of having off leash dogs charging across streets or properties towards me and my dog, and chasing my cat on my own property.

Also, walking a dog off leash is not legal in most places so you would also be breaking the law. My last dog could certainly walk off leash, but I used a leash because of other people's badly behaved dogs, and for the safety of my own dog.

And anyone taking a pit bull out off leash is grossly negligent and irresponsible. I've never heard of an incident of a dog fight or human attack by any breed when that dog has been leashed.
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Old October 20th, 2004, 10:30 AM
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I found it interesting that I was copied on an email from the people from goodpooch.com who are organizing the demo on Saturday, and they said they regularly take their Pitbull off leash at High Park.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
These incidents result not only in possibly two dead dogs, but hurts all responsible owners (like me) and our dogs. No pit bull owner who has the least knowledge, cares about his/her dog, or the breed, OR the rights of other people would EVER take a pit bull to a dog park once it's past 5 or 6 months old.

If you do, you are aiding and abetting the slaughter of these dogs, helping pass BSL laws, and giving fuel to the people who want them wiped off the face of the earth.
I would never do anything to hurt my dog, or other's dogs.
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Old October 20th, 2004, 10:46 AM
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I walk through High Park all the time with Buddy and there are a lot of really well behaved pits off lead. I do not spend much time on dog hill I prefer to walk through the trails but we have run it to quite a few pits and staffs who are very friendly and none have seemed aggressive toward Buddy. I say that because of his size he tends to get dogs wanting to go after him. I call these dogs the napolean complex dogs. Not one of these pits of staffs have ever gone after or even growled at him.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 11:19 AM
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Unfortunately..some people (Dukieboy), do not understand the importance of keeping pits out of trouble right now..or any time for that matter. He believes that just because his dog isn't animal aggressive NOW, he can go to offleash parks and never come face to face with a problem. Dog parks are a huge part of the BSL problems!

Its very sad that pit bulls are faced with irresponsible owners..these are the people that are causing problems in the first place. Dukieboy, I wish you would listen to people that are trying to tell you what is best for the breed...please do not ignore such serious warnings...there are too many cases that are exactly like yours, and have ended up becoming horror stories, because people simply thought that they knew EVERYTHING there is to know about their dog. The fact that its YOUR dog is none of my business, the fact that its a pit bull and the breed is in trouble, and I'm trying to do everything I can to fight for it, IS my business.

Please think twice...you have too many examples that you simply shouldn't be ignoring. Thank you.

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Old October 21st, 2004, 11:51 AM
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1st incorrect assumption: that I am a guy
2nd, that I am an irresponsible owner

Clearly, you are a your way or the highway kind of person.

No room for discussion here.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 12:11 PM
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Dukieboy..its not a matter of MY way or the HIGHWAY...its a matter of safety here...I'm not trying to argue with you..I'm trying to convince you that what you're doing isn't right..and it can become dangerous for all of us.

If someone was kicking the poop out of an old lady on the street and I butted in because I thought it was wrong...it would be MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY? You're comparing the same things here..because your situation is just as bad..and highly risky..we're all fighting so desperately hard right now to keep pit bulls alive, and I just think its extremely sad that you're still stubborn enough to believe that you're not making a big mistake.

I'm trying to help here...but obviously, some people are too into themselves to listen to others. I have the best intentions at heart..just keep that in mind the next time you decide to take your dog where he/she doesn't belong.

If you'd like some suggestions on where you can take your dog to socialize him/her, there are many alternatives that I would be happy to list...but please, for the love of pit bulls, not a dog park.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 12:48 PM
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I fundamentally disagree with your position and for you that makes me an irresponsible owner. Your posts directed at me are patronizing and presumptous. I hear what you are saying. I disagree. I do agree that if your dog is dog aggressive than you are doing the right thing keeping him out of the off leash. I think the "ban" is already in your mind. Not mine. I am aware of these dogs genetic background and purpose. I do not believe they just one day "snap" the way you describe it, they do. I believe they can be socialized, trained and controlled. YOU are perpetuating the myths that surround these dogs.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 12:56 PM
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With so many owners, such as dukieboy, I really do pity this breed....
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Old October 21st, 2004, 01:08 PM
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acutally the reasoning behind BSL in Ontario has nothing to do with dog parks. the attacks that sparked this new BSL run happened in urban settings where the dogs should have been on lead. even the pitbull that attacked that dog in scarborugh should not have been off lead. i don't frequent dog parks for reasons i mentioned in my other post.

and all dogs are capable of snapping regardless of breed. humans snap too. it's a question of mitigating risk, and not necessarily irresponsible ownership. while i have every confidence that you have a well trained dog dukieboy, please, do not fall into the trap of thinking that it is incapable of doing something that would negate that training. i think what pitbulliest is trying to say is that if a ****er spaniel snaps in a dog bark not much will come of it, but once a pitbull snaps in a dog park (even if provoked) it will make front page news. you could go to dog parks for all of the dog's life and never have an issue, however, it only takes one issue, and the consequence might be your best friends life.

cheers
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Old October 21st, 2004, 01:08 PM
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I pity your ignorance and Required Fields sound like a trolling username.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 01:12 PM
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Again, I think the myths surrounding these dogs are being perpetuated right here, right now.
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  #21  
Old October 21st, 2004, 01:21 PM
kigaro kigaro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukieboy
Again, I think the myths surrounding these dogs are being perpetuated right here, right now.
how is it perpetuating a myth to suggest that a domesticated animal is capable of snapping? the best trained horse can snap.

let's be honest too. we all know the outcome of a poodle snapping and a pit bull snapping will have dramatically different outcomes. as i've stated before i stay out of dog parks for my dogs protection not others.

please elaborate.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 01:40 PM
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Elaborate

I adhere to the principles discussed on this site.

http://www.goodpooch.com

I believe they apply equally to pitbulls, labs etc. Take the quiz. The myths being perpetuated here are that pitbulls cannot be socialized, trained and controlled therefore they should be kept on a tight tether and out of the off leash because they are naturally more predisposed to aggression. The other is that if they get in a fight ya can't stop them. This is a myth.

The last three incidents in the media involved:

the kid that was cutting the grass, these dogs were trained to protect, that was thier job. Very sad. The owner and her son were eventually able to subdue their dogs. They were never allowed out of thier home/yard. Improper socialization. There was a reason why they attacked.
The incident before that was the JRT, killed by the two pits who were out of the house without their owner. Clearly irresponsible ownership. I would further venture that the owner assumed that because there were two, they did not require interaction with other dogs. I will venture furhter, improper socialization. I will also venture, if they had interacted with numerous types of dogs in a controlled environment(on or off leash under close supervision of owner)they would understand they were actually playing with another dog and would respond to cues.
Finally,
The incident with the two that attacked their sitter? again, out at three in the am. Probably no socialization.

Dogs attack for a reason. They don't just snap.

Last edited by Dukieboy; October 21st, 2004 at 01:44 PM. Reason: grammer
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Old October 21st, 2004, 02:58 PM
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Quite a good article from the star if you have not read it from yesterdays paper and really makes Bryant look stupid gee that is a shock
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...d=968332188492
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Old October 21st, 2004, 03:13 PM
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Where did you hear that? It's not true. I wish she had locked her gate and not allowed the guy access without her being home and inviting him in.

[QUOTE=Dukieboy] Very sad. The owner and her son were eventually able to subdue their dogs. They were never allowed out of thier home/yard. Improper socialization.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 03:14 PM
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A Voice of Reason

American Pit Bull Terrier
From Marji Beach


Part Four: What About Other Dogs?
Complete text copyright ©©Marji Beach.

Can Pit Bulls get along with other dogs and can I take them to the dog park?

There are some Pit Bull owners out there who answer a vehement NO!!!!! I happen to disagree. Any dog can be trained to tolerate the presence of another dog and ALL dogs should be socialized around other dogs. All well socialized dogs should be comfortable meeting and interacting with new dogs. Owners of multiple dogs should never leave their dogs unattended and alone together as behavioral cues may escalate causing a full-blown fight while the owner is gone. Understanding the cues of other dogs is imperative for an APBT to learn and that should be provided as often and as much as an owner can.

If a dog is left intact (not neutered), male-male aggression may be inevitable but this is not unique to the APBT. A male, unneutered APBT would do best with females or neutered male dogs and a male, un-neutered dog APBT (and most other male, un-neutered dogs!) should not be brought to the dog park or allowed around other un-neutered males.

Unspayed females tend to be more aggressive to other unspayed females, learn the behavior of the dog and avoid the dog park where there is a chance of other un-neutered males or unspayed females being present. Some APBT’’s are only aggressive towards same sized, same sexed dogs while others are only aggressive towards other APBT’’s - again, intense training can teach the dog how to tolerate other dogs; however, even with the tolerance level increased, this APBT should not be brought to the dog park as it can be even more stressful for the dog to be forced around other dogs.

My Pit Bull goes to the dog park and does fine - the dog park is a great way for a dog to learn proper social interactions and generally have a fun time. If a dog park feels unsafe (or you, the owner, feels uncomfortable), find some doggie friends and let them go off leash in a safe environment (like an enclosed backyard - NEVER let your APBT’’s off leash in an unenclosed area if they are not comfortable around unknown dogs).

Every Pit Bull owner’’s motto should be ““My Pit Bull may not start a fight, but will not hesitate to finish it””. This simply means that, as a responsible dog owner, all of your dog’’s interactions should be monitored and if things seem to be getting out of hand, simply leash your dog and have others do the same, giving every dog a timeout. This has never happened with my APBT but I always keep a close eye on her antics, so to speak. I also have spent considerable time intensely socializing and training her.

I think the biggest problem with many Pit Bull owners is that they hide their dogs away from the world - it should never be shocking, then, that these poorly socialized dogs end up attacking another dog. The owner goes away thinking, ““I knew he was dog aggressive”” when it was really the owners fault for not properly socializing their dog. Every APBT owner should be responsible with their dog and take every precaution to prevent any type of agonistic encounter, but hiding the dog away will not help. The dog park may not be the best place for every APBT out there and each individual dog’’s personality and tolerance level should be taken into consideration.

However, this is true of ANY and all dogs - there are plenty of Jack Russell Terriers who are also more than willing to ““end”” a fight as well as start one, that makes them no more or less aggressive than an APBT. Those who would argue that the APBT has a stronger bite are treading on thin ice - a puncture wound, regardless of how big or large, can kill a dog and the vast majority of breeds out there are much larger, some even more muscular, than an APBT and can inflict just as much, if not more, damage than an APBT ever could.
Cautious, not anal retentive or restrictive, is how every Pit Bull owner should be. Owners should be cautious around new dogs and new situations but should also allow their dog time to adjust and investigate. Owners should also be cautious around the ages of 1-3 as that is when hormones are at their peak and the likelihood of dog-dog aggression is highest. If a dog cannot properly interact with other dogs - that dog needs remedial training and socialization to at least tolerate other dogs; this does not mean the APBT has to like other dogs but must act in an appropriate manner.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 03:19 PM
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From the Owner

[QUOTE=LL1]Where did you hear that? It's not true. I wish she had locked her gate and not allowed the guy access without her being home and inviting him in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukieboy
Very sad. The owner and her son were eventually able to subdue their dogs. They were never allowed out of thier home/yard. Improper socialization.

The owner stated the dogs were never allowed out of the yard/home She owned them for protection.

Last edited by Dukieboy; October 21st, 2004 at 03:20 PM. Reason: sentence structure
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Old October 21st, 2004, 03:27 PM
sammiec sammiec is offline
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Dukieboy, there's a big difference as to unsocialized dogs and dogs that don't go to the dog park. You're the one saying that we should agree to disagree, no? Why don't you be the bigger person and let-it-go!

I personally do not take my dog to the dog park anymore because I don't trust OTHER dogs. I don't trust that THEIR dog is socialized or trained properly. My dog is perfectly FINE not going to the park. She meets new people everyday (weither they like it or not ) She is VERY social with children, adults and other animals BUT the difference is it's in a controlled environment, because I don't trust OTHER dogs...

You're stating that we're wrong and creating "dangerous" dogs by not going to the park - how does your argument differ from ours?
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Old October 21st, 2004, 03:33 PM
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Why don't I let it go? Well probably because I have been bashed with the "irresponsible owner" several times on this board for my approach. Not nice. I totally agree we can have different approaches and opinions and I am willing to let it go but if someone infers I am irresponsible then I am going to respond.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 04:05 PM
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Where did she state that? She was seen walking them on leash regularly in her neighbourhood - and both dogs were licensed and altered, she did all the right things in my opinion except for not locking the gate and letting people go in without her being present. Wonder if he always did that or if this was a one off? That I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dukieboy
The owner stated the dogs were never allowed out of the yard/home She owned them for protection.
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Old October 21st, 2004, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Dukieboy
I adhere to the principles discussed on this site.

http://www.goodpooch.com

I believe they apply equally to pitbulls, labs etc. Take the quiz. The myths being perpetuated here are that pitbulls cannot be socialized, trained and controlled therefore they should be kept on a tight tether and out of the off leash because they are naturally more predisposed to aggression. The other is that if they get in a fight ya can't stop them. This is a myth.

The last three incidents in the media involved:

the kid that was cutting the grass, these dogs were trained to protect, that was thier job. Very sad. The owner and her son were eventually able to subdue their dogs. They were never allowed out of thier home/yard. Improper socialization. There was a reason why they attacked.
The incident before that was the JRT, killed by the two pits who were out of the house without their owner. Clearly irresponsible ownership. I would further venture that the owner assumed that because there were two, they did not require interaction with other dogs. I will venture furhter, improper socialization. I will also venture, if they had interacted with numerous types of dogs in a controlled environment(on or off leash under close supervision of owner)they would understand they were actually playing with another dog and would respond to cues.
Finally,
The incident with the two that attacked their sitter? again, out at three in the am. Probably no socialization.

Dogs attack for a reason. They don't just snap.
certainly, i agree the 99% of dog attacks are the result of poor ownership and training.

as i've said it's not my dog i'm worried about in a dog park, it's the other dogs. while i'm quite confident that even if my dog is provoked she will just turn the other way, which as happened, i don't want there to be a time where she's provoked, and she decides enough, and snaps back. and dogs do snap; the malamute that attacked my dog did so for no reason, there was no provocation. admitedly, none of the pits or other breeds i've had in my family since a kid have snapped, but it is a possibility for ANY DOMESTICATED animal to do so. this is one of the key things my dad taught me when teaching me how to train dogs.

i certainly don't hide my dog away from the world, though. on the trails we hike we often run into other dogs, and they do their little came of chase and tussle, and then we continue the walk. also, i often bring her with me if my wife and i are goin' out of an afternoon of shopping on queen or danforth. dog parks make me nervous cause lot's of owners do not have good control of their dogs, and with so many dogs running around things can get confusing. i still meander through dog parks to get to the trails i like to hike, i just don't dwell in them.

that and i prefer my long walks in seclusion, it's just so much more peaceful.

also, for the record i do not think you are a irresponsible owner for taking your dog to a dog park. you seem to be a responsible owner who knows their dogs limitations. please, just watch out for the owner's who don't.

personally, if i had any breed of dog i would still avoid dog parks once i got the pup past the socialization stage. so, ultimately we can chaulk it up as personal preference.

here's an informative article on why to avoid dog parks.

http://www.badrap.org/rescue/dogpark.cfm

cheers
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