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Old September 6th, 2012, 05:24 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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Wolf Dog Breeds

I wanted to start a thread about a subject that is dear to me but also controversial. I hope to be able to do this in a way that won’t ruffle feathers.

This subject is dear to me because 22 years ago I accidentally bought a low content wolf dog hybrid. When he was six months old he killed some river rats. I stood there in disbelief when my neighbor who was facing the pup playing by the river said “uh your dog just killed a rat.” I told him that my dog must have found it dead. He argued that he had seen him grab it out of the water and shake it to death. On another occasion I let him off his leash after a very long run in the woods. He ran into a large cement pipe that went under the road and by the light of the sewer grate I had to wait till he was done exterminating a family of musk rats. He killed a ground hog on another occasion and then the neighbor’s cat. The cat used to eat with their family dog and was friendly with dogs. One day on our way home I spotted our dog running like a wolf by the side of a cow and jumping at it in exactly the way wolves jump at game. We stopped the car immediately and the farmers were coming out of the barn with pitch forks. We managed to get the dog into the car and an argument ensued with the farmers. They said to my husband “if there is anything wrong with my cow you will pay for her” to which my husband replied ‘no problem, but if I pay for her he will eat her” To my surprise the farmers laughed and the cow seemed to do fine after that. We were however being sued by the cat owners who had been friends and we were no longer able to be insured if we kept the dog. We called the breeder who told us that her line of black huskies had extinguished and she needed him anyways. I cried when we signed his papers back over to her and as I heard him howling as we drove away down the 300 yard driveway.

My husband and I wrote to the owner of Mission Wolf hoping he would allow me to post images directly to this forum and he has agreed.

This is the reply I got from Mission Wolf:

Thanks for your work to help educate others about the reality of owning a wild canine (and for your patience with my reply).

Yes, you are welcome to post any images you like. Please provide copyright credits to M:W and the artist of the image where appropriate.

Have a great year and good luck,
Kent



I was hoping someone could help me make a sticky about this problem. I want to give credit to the photographers but couldn't immediately find their names on the website so for now I will post a link to the website. http://www.missionwolf.com/

Also The Dog Whisperer did an episode on this problem and part of it is on you tube. The head of Mission Wolf is on that episode. I think these groups are doing great work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfpQVjYFcSE

I specifically asked to use the images directly on this website but realized I may not be computer savy enough to do it. I hesitate to copy them to photobucket.

I am looking forward to hearing your opinions on this subject.
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Old September 6th, 2012, 08:29 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
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If you do a search this topic was discussed not too long ago.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 09:38 AM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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Contrary to popular belief, wolf hybrids are pretty rare. A wolf doesn't make a good pet and trying to keep one as a house dog is kind of like trying to pretend that a tiger is a house cat.

There are several breeds of dog that are known for their high prey drive and would kill as you have described. Huskies and Malamutes both are known for this - as they are for their tendency to roam if allowed. This is not to say that your dog was not a wolf hybrid, just that there are breeds out there who are capable of doing the kind of damage you are talking about.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 12:50 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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Originally Posted by LavenderRott View Post
Contrary to popular belief, wolf hybrids are pretty rare. A wolf doesn't make a good pet and trying to keep one as a house dog is kind of like trying to pretend that a tiger is a house cat.

There are several breeds of dog that are known for their high prey drive and would kill as you have described. Huskies and Malamutes both are known for this - as they are for their tendency to roam if allowed. This is not to say that your dog was not a wolf hybrid, just that there are breeds out there who are capable of doing the kind of damage you are talking about.
When I bought my dog from a woman who had the current world champion I was looking for a pure bred Husky. However by walking around the property I seemed to make the breeders nervous. Then from around the corner of the barn I spotted an enclosure. Up until this point I had only seen wolves on TV. Needless to say I must have looked very worried. I asked if they were wolves and in my mind the wheels were turning I had so badly wanted that dog but everything was telling me turn around, forget about it go home. Yet the long wait for the puppies, saving my money. She admitted they were wolves but explained how it was breed-ed in then diluted to the extreme. I guess I really wanted to believe it. This was 25 (sorry I just realized I did the math wrong we got the puppy when my youngest was born and she is 25 now) years ago and was a well known practice at the time. The notion was that the dogs would run harder and longer. My papers however stated that my dog was a purebred husky son of the world champion at the time.

Our vet clued us into certain anatomical features in our dog that were more standard to the wolf than the husky. He was over sized, his teeth were very large, the position of his legs apparently was a telltale sign. Then I met people with purebred huskies from other breeders. Many seemed not to know what I was talking about when I disclosed the problems we were having.

Our neighbors had nicknamed the dog Houdini for his amazing escapes, eating through a door, jumping over a eight foot enclosure somehow ect.

Others did not have the problems I was having. I am sure other huskies may have been just like my dog. His lineage is strong in Canada. I got my husky when he was a pup and all of his brothers died of rabies. The breeder sold many dogs in France as well. This is the reason she was eager to take him back. I can't complain about the breeder because in my opinion she was extraordinary building world champions. However the guilt of having to abandon a dog because of the lawsuit by a neighbor and my inability to contain him properly has stayed with me. When I hear about the plight of wolf hybrids Kim comes to mind. He was beautiful and loyal and probably my best friend and yet I could not because of money find a way to keep him. I always hope it ended well for him but I will always be haunted by his howling as I abandoned him back to the breeder when he was six. Weather any of the wolves in the enclosure were distant relatives of his I will never really know.

I feel strongly about the fate of so many animals that end up in shelters weather they be dog, wolf or whatever. The reason always seems to be our lack of understanding and preparation or sometimes a child is allergic.

I am glad this subject was brought up however did not see a sticky so the site can give a strong opinion on this subject as they do about unnecessary breeding. I have seen forums encouraging sixteen year olds to do breeding of birds even though they don't know who would pay for the vet in the case of an emergency.

I am very appreciative of the responses and hope I can avoid one person from having to abandon a lovely animal like Kim.


To this day these pictures are of the saddest day of my life. I Took them so I could remember him, also a drawing in aquarable crayons was done during the trip. It is in my album on this site.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 12:50 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
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Originally Posted by kittiesandbirds View Post
I wanted to start a thread about a subject that is dear to me but also controversial. I hope to be able to do this in a way that won’t ruffle feathers.

This subject is dear to me because 22 years ago I accidentally bought a low content wolf dog hybrid. When he was six months old he killed some river rats. I stood there in disbelief when my neighbor who was facing the pup playing by the river said “uh your dog just killed a rat.” I told him that my dog must have found it dead. He argued that he had seen him grab it out of the water and shake it to death. On another occasion I let him off his leash after a very long run in the woods. He ran into a large cement pipe that went under the road and by the light of the sewer grate I had to wait till he was done exterminating a family of musk rats. He killed a ground hog on another occasion and then the neighbor’s cat. The cat used to eat with their family dog and was friendly with dogs. One day on our way home I spotted our dog running like a wolf by the side of a cow and jumping at it in exactly the way wolves jump at game. We stopped the car immediately and the farmers were coming out of the barn with pitch forks. We managed to get the dog into the car and an argument ensued with the farmers. They said to my husband “if there is anything wrong with my cow you will pay for her” to which my husband replied ‘no problem, but if I pay for her he will eat her” To my surprise the farmers laughed and the cow seemed to do fine after that. We were however being sued by the cat owners who had been friends and we were no longer able to be insured if we kept the dog. We called the breeder who told us that her line of black huskies had extinguished and she needed him anyways. I cried when we signed his papers back over to her and as I heard him howling as we drove away down the 300 yard driveway.

My husband and I wrote to the owner of Mission Wolf hoping he would allow me to post images directly to this forum and he has agreed.

This is the reply I got from Mission Wolf:

Thanks for your work to help educate others about the reality of owning a wild canine (and for your patience with my reply).

Yes, you are welcome to post any images you like. Please provide copyright credits to M:W and the artist of the image where appropriate.

Have a great year and good luck,
Kent



I was hoping someone could help me make a sticky about this problem. I want to give credit to the photographers but couldn't immediately find their names on the website so for now I will post a link to the website. http://www.missionwolf.com/

Also The Dog Whisperer did an episode on this problem and part of it is on you tube. The head of Mission Wolf is on that episode. I think these groups are doing great work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfpQVjYFcSE

I specifically asked to use the images directly on this website but realized I may not be computer savy enough to do it. I hesitate to copy them to photobucket.

I am looking forward to hearing your opinions on this subject.
I knew a woman that had a coyote/dog . She was very sweet but she had a very hard adjusting when her owner moved to a new house. The coyote/dog kept going back to her old house , she just could not get use to be moved around like a pet. I felt bad for the coyote/dog as the owner was trying to treat her as if she was a dog and the owner was always getting mad at the poor thing for not behaving like a 'dog'. There is no needs to breed dogs with wolves , it not fair for the animal, wolves are wild animals and their traits will show up in the mix breed. If it should attack another dog or person the first thing people will do is to blame the wolf part of the breed. Please go to a shelter and you'll find all kind of dogs that need a forever home . Why do want a wolf/dog anyway?? I think it is very selfish to try and made a pet out of a wild animal.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 01:01 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
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Originally Posted by kittiesandbirds View Post


To this day these pictures are of the saddest day of my life. I Took them so I could remember him, also a drawing in aquarable crayons was done during the trip. It is in my album on this site.

Actually in those pictures your dog looks perfectly like a show line husky and not a thing like any thing resembling a wolf. And yes, the type of behaviour you are describing would also be very fitting of many huskies.

And BTW I would be taking with a grain of salt any information coming from a woman who without much thought hands you forged papers. Either that or she saw an opportunity to sell some one a "wolf dog" to seal the deal and you still only had just a husky pup and the papers were correct but you were led to believe some thing else. Either way, shady.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 01:16 PM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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Originally Posted by kittiesandbirds View Post

I can't complain about the breeder because in my opinion she was extraordinary building world champions.
If she sold you a dog that was a wolf hybrid (and the dog in the pictures look like a well bred husky) and gave you papers that said the dog was a purebred husky - she either lied to you about there being wolf in your dog (which I suspect is true, based on the photos) or she was lying to others by selling them dogs that were not purebred. Either way, there is nothing extraordinary about it and such practices would get her kicked out of either the AKC or the CKC now.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 01:27 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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I knew a woman that had a coyote/dog . She was very sweet but she had a very hard adjusting when her owner moved to a new house. The coyote/dog kept going back to her old house , she just could not get use to be moved around like a pet. I felt bad for the coyote/dog as the owner was trying to treat her as if she was a dog and the owner was always getting mad at the poor thing for not behaving like a 'dog'. There is no needs to breed dogs with wolves , it not fair for the animal, wolves are wild animals and their traits will show up in the mix breed. If it should attack another dog or person the first thing people will do is to blame the wolf part of the breed. Please go to a shelter and you'll find all kind of dogs that need a forever home . Why do want a wolf/dog anyway?? I think it is very selfish to try and made a pet out of a wild animal.
Thank you I agree totally.

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Originally Posted by Choochi View Post
Actually in those pictures your dog looks perfectly like a show line husky and not a thing like any thing resembling a wolf. And yes, the type of behaviour you are describing would also be very fitting of many huskies.

And BTW I would be taking with a grain of salt any information coming from a woman who without much thought hands you forged papers. Either that or she saw an opportunity to sell some one a "wolf dog" to seal the deal and you still only had just a husky pup and the papers were correct but you were led to believe some thing else. Either way, shady.
She sold him to us as a pure bred husky. My vet had problems with his size among other things she spoke of his angular eyes. Also we could not show him because of his size even though we paid for breeding rights he was never bred but not for this reason. At any rate the breeder told us that the wolves were breeded in and diluted to the maximum. I was a bit overwhelmed and didn't ask any of the right questions. I did not ask if he had any wolf in his ancestry. As an artist I can not help but notice that his eyes are way more angular than many of the huskies I encounter. But weather he have wolf or none is not my concern because the people with wolf hybrids have the same problems. I will never know if any of the wolf blood coursed through his veins but I did see them on the property. I have no idea if it was legal at the time.

The reason I respect the breeder is because the area photographed is where she had her dogs. She did sledding and knew how to raise these dogs. The only thing I don't like is having seen the wolves enclosure, I always felt bad about that. I did not respect that part of it. The point I want to make is that wolves and dogs should not be bred together. She did admit to having some problems with her neighbors however being a famous breeder things worked themselves out.

By the way my husband is six feet three and my youngest is six in the picture but now just shy of six feet. I don't know myself how typical his size was of a wolf but was just told this by the vet.

I would not have bought the puppy if he had given off a strong indication of having wolf. I too was sure he was 100% husky till the vet pointed out certain things. I guess I will never know. Still his plight aligns with theirs.

By the way I mentioned my experience with Kim because people who buy a wolf hybrid may have the same heartache. I don't want to make the thread about kim though. I would rather discuss the problem of wolf hybridism and selling as pets. The owner of Mission wolf has to turn dogs away every year because he can not take them all in. I find this sad. These animals are destroyed and that could have been a possibility for Kim. Education can save these dogs before they are born I believe.

Last edited by kittiesandbirds; September 7th, 2012 at 01:49 PM.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 01:59 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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I'd like to add that after purchasing the dog we did buy a really big book that was supposed to be the best on Siberian Huskies at the time. In the book they spoke of the practice of breeding in wolves. As a buyer we were not prepared for the enclosure with wolves. I think I would suggest today people buy the book before. In a way I was as negligent as the breeder and not so proud to admit it.

However if today I wrote a thread stating that a person wanting a Siberian Husky needed to make an enclosure suited for a wolf many people would disagree with me. Kim being a husky could not spend more than five minutes inside without overheating. In weather deemed dangerous by the government, posting extreme cold warnings we tried to take him in to have him panting and pacing and scratching at the door. This is more typical of the husky apparently. To keep my dog I would have needed to build a very sophisticated enclosure before the dog arrived. We assumed that our enclosure which was top notch would suffice. In the picture above Kim is temporarily in the barn of the Breeder till she was able to get him to the Vet for a checkup and put him in with a female. It did sooth me a bit to learn that he was quickly put in with a very old female.

I am not sure I can tell people they need a wolf enclosure for huskies as I don't know how typical his abilities were.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 05:03 PM
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This is a wolf




This is a husky



The dog in your pictures looks like a husky - larger eyes, larger ears, more distinct markings.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 05:42 PM
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I'd like to add that after purchasing the dog we did buy a really big book that was supposed to be the best on Siberian Huskies at the time. In the book they spoke of the practice of breeding in wolves. As a buyer we were not prepared for the enclosure with wolves. I think I would suggest today people buy the book before. In a way I was as negligent as the breeder and not so proud to admit it.

However if today I wrote a thread stating that a person wanting a Siberian Husky needed to make an enclosure suited for a wolf many people would disagree with me. Kim being a husky could not spend more than five minutes inside without overheating. In weather deemed dangerous by the government, posting extreme cold warnings we tried to take him in to have him panting and pacing and scratching at the door. This is more typical of the husky apparently. To keep my dog I would have needed to build a very sophisticated enclosure before the dog arrived. We assumed that our enclosure which was top notch would suffice. In the picture above Kim is temporarily in the barn of the Breeder till she was able to get him to the Vet for a checkup and put him in with a female. It did sooth me a bit to learn that he was quickly put in with a very old female.

I am not sure I can tell people they need a wolf enclosure for huskies as I don't know how typical his abilities were.
You must keep your house real hot in the winter. I had a Samoyed Husky and she was fine in my small apartment in the winter. I think Samoyed have a heavier coat than Siberian huskies .
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Old September 7th, 2012, 05:43 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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Your missing the point. I know what a wolf and a husky look like. If you read all my posts you would know that by now. I am not going to waste my time talking to people who are not reading my posts.

There is a big difference between genotype and phenotype. I have been through this for years with people. First I told people for decades that huskies could be hard to handle but of course in more detail. The people all told me that the behavior of my dog was not that of a husky. So having seen the cage of wolves and being told by the breeder that there was a type of cross breeding going on just to get running genes into the dogs I started to think that the vet may be on to something. Dogs breed rapidly I don't know what a tenth generation out bread wolf looks like. What happens to those genes once in the population of huskies. I have told you since the beginning on other threads or in my introduction that Kim had his papers. I have suffered a stroke and do not explain myself well but your post is just insulting as I wanted to post the images myself to show people what wolves looked like. That is why I got the permission from kent. Also all the people who said my dog looks like a regular husky, daaaaa. Would I have paid good money for a dog that did not when his father is supposed to be a champion.

I am trying to say that she had wolves on the property and was breeding them with her dogs and as she put it diluting it. I have no particarlar knowledge farther than that. I do not know how to make champion Huskies or breed them. Also I have explained that the first doubts came not from me but from a vet. When the poor dog was bashed on the head with rocks thrown by a very fancy sling shot. I had seen the teens with it but it was only after this that I came home to find his head bloodied and bruised to have another neighbor tell me what they saw. When the vet spoke of some particularities she noticed I mentioned the wolves on the property. It was her opinion and not mine that he may have some wolf genes. Since so many people on forums told me over and over that my dog did not have husky behavior or that it was not normal for huskies ect I assumed this could be a possibility. Obviously if I did not pursue the breeder it was because to me Kim was a pure bred husky.

I was always haunted by the wolves in the enclosure wondering if this had somehow determined the fate of my dog. I have seen husky wolf mixes and I can imagine a few generations later getting Kim.

Only because people on forums insisted so much that it was untrue that the prey drive could be this strong in a husky did I finally allow myself to think "well maybe he got a bad gene in there"

Please don't insult my intelligence with a post like this. I know fully well what a wolf looks like and started out this thread wanting to post all those images.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 05:44 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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You must keep your house real hot in the winter. I had a Samoyed Husky and she was fine in my small apartment in the winter. I think Samoyed have a heavier coat than Siberian huskies .
No the dog had access to the cool basement but I have read in books that this is a trait of the Siberian husky.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 05:58 PM
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As this is an open forum - currently with 204 unregistered guests viewing and over 100 people viewing on this thread alone - it is important that EVERYONE who reads this has as much information available to learn. It isn't all about you.

I don't know about husky breeders 25 years ago (but I do know a bit about breeders of other breeds 30 years ago) and you do NOT breed Championship dogs by mixing them with wolves or any other form of canine or canidae. A husky is a mutt if it is does not come from generations of huskies, not generations of huskies mixed with wolves.

Now, as for people on forums not having issues with their huskies having a high prey drive - it would be important to look at breeding. A dog that is bred to standard, with the drive and ability to do the job that it was meant to do, should have a high prey drive. Dogs bred to be pets or simply to do well in the show ring may not.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 06:01 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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This is a wolf dog hybrid from The Dog Whisperer in which Kent who gave me the permission to use his photos stars.


To me it's plausible that the breeder was telling the truth. If this dog had puppies with a Siberian and so on and so forth the puppies eventually have the appearance of a pure Siberian.

Why else would this woman have wolves on her property in an enclosure? She explained it herself. I could understand you rediculising me if I had no basis to believe he had some gene that made him a bit more wild but the basis came from the wolves on her property in an enclosure which she herself admitted to crossing with her Siberians.

The only particularities about Kim were the fact that he was oversize which I had explained away through good nutrition.

I have seen people go on websites saying my dog is a wolf. I made no such claim. I never never said my dog looks like a wolf.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 06:14 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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As this is an open forum - currently with 204 unregistered guests viewing and over 100 people viewing on this thread alone - it is important that EVERYONE who reads this has as much information available to learn. It isn't all about you.

I don't know about husky breeders 25 years ago (but I do know a bit about breeders of other breeds 30 years ago) and you do NOT breed Championship dogs by mixing them with wolves or any other form of canine or canidae. A husky is a mutt if it is does not come from generations of huskies, not generations of huskies mixed with wolves.

Now, as for people on forums not having issues with their huskies having a high prey drive - it would be important to look at breeding. A dog that is bred to standard, with the drive and ability to do the job that it was meant to do, should have a high prey drive. Dogs bred to be pets or simply to do well in the show ring may not.
All I can tell you is that this woman did breed champion huskies and she did have those wolves and claim to breed them. Was this a trial? Who knows. I know that when I called her with the problem Kim was coming home fromt he vets with his fractured skull. She told me on the phone that her black husky line was extinguished and that they had died of rabies. These people were very old then so if you do your research you will know who it is. I noticed that although they still have a website they have no pictures and no recent champions. So did this lead to disaster?

At any rate I told you I wanted to make a thread about wolve hybrids and add the emotional touch of what can happen when you can't handle the animal. You are the ones that made this about my dog and me. I asked for help making a sticky. I needed help posting images and info about wolves and some of the problems cross breeding causes. But from what I can see forums are full of people who would much rather argue and label others liars and insult them rather than educate. I wonder if the breeder would admit today to having had wolves on her property. Why was she nearly shuddering when she admitted what they were? When I spoke to her of my legal problems she admitted to having had similar problems that had "worked themselves out".

Upon my return six years later the wolf enclosure was not there. I could not have my dog put down. You can call me weak if you like, I was. I knew that she understood this dog better than anyone. She created him. Also I don't know that the champions I am speaking of were created in this fashion or when the wolves were on the property or before. I am just stating the facts. It's really hard to talk to people that are jumping all over me when I just wanted to talk to people about wolf hybrids being put down and having had a stroke thought some of you could help me out. I guess I was wrong.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 06:19 PM
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Nobody is ridiculing you! There are many, many more people than just you reading this!

There is a rottweiler/doberman miller in Pennsylvania that has (or had) some wolves on his property. I couldn't tell you why, and, honestly, I don't care.

The point I am trying to make is this:

If the breeder was breeding her dogs to the wolves on her property then she was NOT an ethical breeder.

If she was NOT breeding her huskies to the wolves on her property but was selling "wolf hybrids" to people then she was not an ethical breeder.
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Old September 7th, 2012, 06:44 PM
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Nobody is ridiculing you! There are many, many more people than just you reading this!

There is a rottweiler/doberman miller in Pennsylvania that has (or had) some wolves on his property. I couldn't tell you why, and, honestly, I don't care.

The point I am trying to make is this:

If the breeder was breeding her dogs to the wolves on her property then she was NOT an ethical breeder.

If she was NOT breeding her huskies to the wolves on her property but was selling "wolf hybrids" to people then she was not an ethical breeder.
I think by today's standards you are right. Possibly even by the standards of those days. I always asked myself why I did not follow my gut feeling and walk away. I was freaked out by the enclosure because it was even covered with wire. I thought wow are they that dangerous? We had wolves at the zoo here in Quebec too but it's just like seeing them on TV. This was different because the enclosure at our zoo is a kind of deep dugout where people can stand. Seeing them like this was very different. I had such a bad feeling but this plan of getting this dog was thoroughly researched and this woman who you may have guess her name by now had such a reputation for champions. She sold dog to Yeso Pack. I did research to find "the best breeder" by calling canine clubs. I guess when I got there and saw this I thought that who was I to judge someone who is hailed as a pro. Anyways I'm glad we can get back on topic. I think this may be a warning to both people looking for wolf dog hybrids or any dog.

Here's the thing imagine me bringing up this topic and trying to warn people about huskies. People rip my head off and say you got the only bad one. The think is to me he was never a bad one. I only decided to give him up for his safety at the end. We sold the house and moved after so that is how serious a dog neighbor problem can get. Like you said it's not about me. I think my enormous guilt about leaving Kim there like that should serve some greater purpose. I don't know how his life ended. That is a terrible feeling and it's the feeling all the people who don't do their homework will have with a dog.

I told you about the bad stuff he did but never about how much I loved him. He was the only one who supported my rigorous training back then. Through wooded forests and fields pulling my youngest across the frozen lake where we lived. He was basically one of the best things that ever happened to me. I didn't have enough acreage like the Breeders. Then of course you have children and a budget and building a perfect containment is just out of limits ect.

Every time I see the images in my minds eye of Kim trying to single handily take down a cow there is that question mark? At a certain point we looked at his enclosure the door locked and started thinking well a neighbor must have let him out. Then my husband would point out the lock was intact. Back then little cameras were not so cheap. Today you could put one over the enclosure and figure out how he is doing it.

Well I guess this thread is not going to work out and nobody will help me build a sticky about wolves.
  #19  
Old September 7th, 2012, 07:17 PM
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There are things that people need to know about all breeds and we can try to teach them. The sad truth is that there are few dogs of any breed that can actually do the work that the breed was intended to do - too many have been "watered" down to make great pets for the average family or to do well in the show ring. That is not to say that I think the show ring is a bad thing - but it really takes a very special, ethical person that wants to breed the "whole" dog - looks, temperament and proper drives to not only do well in the show ring but also to be able to compete in dog sports that show what the dog is capable of doing.

Prey drive can be translated into many things - it isn't just a desire to hunt and kill but a desire to run further, faster, a desire to learn, a desire to jump. While this behaviors aren't specifically "prey" drive, having a dog with a healthy prey drive makes it much easier to do all of these other things. Huskies and Malamutes were bred to run and pull and yes, they should have a high prey drive. I must say - in 30+ years in dogs, I don't think I have met a husky or malamute that would be capable of pulling a sled for very long or very far. Having said that, I haven't met many husky/malamute owners who would be able to handle such a dog.
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  #20  
Old September 7th, 2012, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by kittiesandbirds View Post
Your missing the point. I know what a wolf and a husky look like. If you read all my posts you would know that by now. I am not going to waste my time talking to people who are not reading my posts.

There is a big difference between genotype and phenotype. I have been through this for years with people. First I told people for decades that huskies could be hard to handle but of course in more detail. The people all told me that the behavior of my dog was not that of a husky. So having seen the cage of wolves and being told by the breeder that there was a type of cross breeding going on just to get running genes into the dogs I started to think that the vet may be on to something. Dogs breed rapidly I don't know what a tenth generation out bread wolf looks like. What happens to those genes once in the population of huskies. I have told you since the beginning on other threads or in my introduction that Kim had his papers. I have suffered a stroke and do not explain myself well but your post is just insulting as I wanted to post the images myself to show people what wolves looked like. That is why I got the permission from kent. Also all the people who said my dog looks like a regular husky, daaaaa. Would I have paid good money for a dog that did not when his father is supposed to be a champion.

I am trying to say that she had wolves on the property and was breeding them with her dogs and as she put it diluting it. I have no particarlar knowledge farther than that. I do not know how to make champion Huskies or breed them. Also I have explained that the first doubts came not from me but from a vet. When the poor dog was bashed on the head with rocks thrown by a very fancy sling shot. I had seen the teens with it but it was only after this that I came home to find his head bloodied and bruised to have another neighbor tell me what they saw. When the vet spoke of some particularities she noticed I mentioned the wolves on the property. It was her opinion and not mine that he may have some wolf genes. Since so many people on forums told me over and over that my dog did not have husky behavior or that it was not normal for huskies ect I assumed this could be a possibility. Obviously if I did not pursue the breeder it was because to me Kim was a pure bred husky.

I was always haunted by the wolves in the enclosure wondering if this had somehow determined the fate of my dog. I have seen husky wolf mixes and I can imagine a few generations later getting Kim.

Only because people on forums insisted so much that it was untrue that the prey drive could be this strong in a husky did I finally allow myself to think "well maybe he got a bad gene in there"

Please don't insult my intelligence with a post like this. I know fully well what a wolf looks like and started out this thread wanting to post all those images.
I wonder if that person has a permit to have wolves on her property . There is only one place I know of that is allowed to raise wolves where I live. I wish there a law that ban people from breeding wild and domestic animals together.
  #21  
Old September 7th, 2012, 10:04 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
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Originally Posted by kittiesandbirds View Post
Here's the thing imagine me bringing up this topic and trying to warn people about huskies. People rip my head off and say you got the only bad one.
Oh hell no! Your dog sounds to me very much like a number of huskies and malamutes or mixes of I have met.

I don't know how things were 25 years ago but I do know this, there is a clear split between working and show lines in many working breeds. Generally, huskies that sled and do really well at it, don't look like the show bred huskies many people envision when they think of the breed. So for you to say that this breeder had world class show line huskies which she cross bred with wolves to get better working performance sounds like such a complete bag of rubbish only an unscrupulous backyard breeder would think of to scam potential uneducated puppy buyers with. Also as it was pointed out, if the dogs have been cross bred with wolves and then bred back to huskies, they were not pure bred huskies, they were husky mixes. These dogs would not qualify for pedigrees... and if it did happen, it would have been fraud as the dog was mixed.

Honestly every thing about your story to do with that breeder stinks. Why did she have wolves? Are you sure they were actual wolves? Even if they were, so what? Just because the animals are on the property doesn't mean they were bred. There are unfortunately people out there who want dogs that are part wolf and simply telling a potential buyer that a pup is part wolf just because they look fuzzy to an untrained eye will guarantee a sale and generally that's the only one thing bad breeders generally care about. Selling puppies to any one at any cost.

And if all those dogs died of rabies of all things, this would have been a national story! Rabies is an extremely high profile disease. A single case of a dog dying from it would have been a big deal, an entire litter of dogs from the same breeder dying of rabies??? Again, jaw dropping unlikely.

NO ONE is ridiculing you. We are simply saying your story as it has been told to you does not add up. The dog you are describing looked and acted very much like a husky. Yes, huskies can be nasty dogs, they can roam, they can have major issues with confinement or even living inside a house and can be extreme escape artists, they are known to kill small animals, they are known to howl... Before some upset husky owner reads this, here's the disclaimer, yes there are some that make nice pets, but in general for a lot of people, they can be very difficult to live with. A lot of people have difficulty handling and living with just an average dog that acts like a normal dog, let alone a working breed that has managed to hang on to some of their working drives and instincts. Just take a look at pet finder and see how many of them have been given up to shelters and rescues in comparison to other breeds. Even if your dog was a little bigger then the standard, this happens all the time will all breeds, same with other body variations such as slightly larger teeth. That's simply how breeding works, it does not automatically mean there must be wolf in there some where.
  #22  
Old September 7th, 2012, 10:17 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
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Here is the other thread about wolf dogs that was on here:

http://pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?...highlight=wolf
  #23  
Old September 8th, 2012, 08:43 AM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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Like I said this thread is going nowhere. You say that what I wrote is rubbish about her having those wolves and telling me she is cross breeding and I am telling you that you are very insulting.

It's no use me swearing up and down that what I saw and know existed. These people had world champions and had wolves at one point in a enclosure on their property and told me they crossed them with their dogs.

What form that took, the length of time the exercise lasted and the results I have no idea of. I'm just a person who accidentally saw something I probably wasn't supposed to see.

Times have changed for sure in every way. When I was a kid I had rheumatic fever and they had antibiotics but not the substances they have today to get rid of the toxins that build up from having streptococcus in your blood. The very old man who volunteered at the hospital to teach me to walk on crutches for my release from the hospital had the disease as a child and was treated by being wrapped and having hot lemonade poured all over his body. The older nurses confirmed he was not pulling my leg. They didn't know what to do with it when he was a kid.

You know this is kind of funny because by acting like a know it all you are passing by something. It doesn't change and can't change what I know and saw.

I will not come back here as it is useless speaking with you. You are totally closed off. You obviously did not read my posts this I will repeat because you keep answering things that interpret what I say totally wrong.

I did not make a thread about how to make champion huskies. I would not do this because I am not an expert.

You can keep taking one sentence out of context and reading all kinds of stuff into it. Like when I said she was an extraordinary breeder. I meant the fact that she had had world champions. I did not mean the fact that she had wolves which I was against. If I tell you "I like Micheal Jackson's music" and you say "oh so you love pedophiles" I'd have to tell you that you misunderstood me. NOTE This example is actually something that happened to my daughter. I respect the lifestyle she had in the woods and the fact that she could sled up when approaching 90. I met her and talked to her at length. They had us over for supper when we did the long drive to get our dog. I think she is an extraordinary person for many of the things she did, but you just zoom in on little parts of what I am saying instead of getting the big picture. Would I have made this thread to warn people about mixing wolves with dogs if I thought it was a good idea and a good way to make champions? It's rhetorical obviously. So how come you can't see my intent and keep getting it all wrong?


I think you didn't read my posts and you are just zooming in little things. I'm just a person who bought a dog and saw some wolves on her property and took her word for what she was doing with it. One book which I had for around 15 years that I can't find online anywhere but was highly recommended at the time spoke of this practice. It reassured me.

Books are written by people they can be misguided. I saw online info during my research on wolves that said that this practice did not occur and that they doubted there was a mix with wolves because of genetic testing. Weather this was an incident that was rare and misguided by this breeder is anyone's guess till someone starts a similar project on Siberians as The Human Genome Project. From what I have written you must know by now that I have no idea how far those wolf genes made it. I have no idea if her champions have the slightest wolf blood. If you would read the posts you would not still be answering the things you are. Her champions may have been designed before she got a silly notion to bring wolves into the mix. The wolves on the property may have been an embryonic project that was aborted. I just don't know but here you are acting like I made a thread stating that using wolves to make huskies is a good idea when my thread was just the exact opposite. How can I make a thread whose sole purpose is to warn against people mixing wolves and dogs and have someone basically repeat over and over that mixing wolves and dogs is a bad idea to me as if I said the opposite, as if I made a thread to promote this?

I see no reason to continue conversing with someone who basically called me a liar by saying that what I said is rubbish.

I think your interpretation is rubbish. From reading your posts I am hearing that you think I am saying "hey all breeders do this and it's the only way to make a champion" because that seems to be the person you are addressing.

I on the other hand related a few simple anecdotes of my life. I consider you hijacked my thread completely.
Here we are still talking about Siberians and how to breed them when my thread was about wolf hybrids. The anecdote of my dog was a sidenote on how much of a heartache this can lead to.

I took pictures the day I bought Kim. I photographed some of the champions there. How I wish now I had quickly snapped the wolf enclosure.

I could then disclose the name of the Breeder and you would have to say. Yes this breeder was famous at that time. I don't know if her children have taken over for her or if they have simply stopped breeding. They do have a website. I am not here to ruin someones business as I am sure they have probably fallen into respecting whatever laws now exist. I can't imagine anyone daring to have a wolf enclosure on their property in this day and age and as I stated when I brought Kim back the enclosure was gone.

I think you are going into this with a mindset of our time. Today at my age I probably would have called the authorities on this lady.

People breed cats from wild cats then make a breed out of them. I suppose they get special permits for them. Was she able to get special permits? I have no idea and can only speak of what I know. I had no idea when I walked in on all this what "normal" practices were at the time. Like I said before I didn't ask the right questions either, we always realize this after. Experiences like this teach us that a gut feeling "somethings not right here" should be listened to no matter how much you planned saved and dreampt of getting that puppy.
  #24  
Old September 8th, 2012, 09:11 AM
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Yes, huskies can be nasty dogs, they can roam, they can have major issues with confinement or even living inside a house and can be extreme escape artists, they are known to kill small animals, they are known to howl...
That is so true. I had a friend in Edmonton who had 2 huskies who would escape from a fenced in yard and make a beeline for the U of Alberta Experimental Farm and kill the sheep. They had a 6 foot fence, but that could not keep their dogs in. They would burrow under or sometimes get over the fence. AC finally gave them an ultimatum, rehome or they would confiscate them. They found a rural home that had experience with huskies where the dogs were able to run with an experienced owner.
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  #25  
Old September 8th, 2012, 12:42 PM
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I believe an opinion was expressed that the breeder was handing you a line of rubbish...not that you were speaking rubbish, kittiesandbirds

Perhaps now is a good time to step back and take some deep breaths. This thread has a lot of good points in it and it would be a shame to have to close it down due to misunderstandings and lost tempers.
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  #26  
Old September 8th, 2012, 01:35 PM
kittiesandbirds kittiesandbirds is offline
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Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post
I believe an opinion was expressed that the breeder was handing you a line of rubbish...not that you were speaking rubbish, kittiesandbirds

Perhaps now is a good time to step back and take some deep breaths. This thread has a lot of good points in it and it would be a shame to have to close it down due to misunderstandings and lost tempers.
As far as I am concerned you can close it down. I got permission to use the images from Mission Wolf and like I said in my introduction (to this website) have had a stroke so needed help transmitting an idea and finding the artists names of the photographs I was given permission to use.

I placed links to give a direction to what I wanted to express. That is not going to happen now and I wrote to mission wolf for nothing. I can still donate to mission wolf and have my convictions. It would have been nice to write back to Kent and ask him to maybe contribute his own insights but I guess if that happens it won't be my initiative.

Close the thread down, it was a total FAIL.


Run hard, run free Kim.

Last edited by kittiesandbirds; September 8th, 2012 at 01:46 PM.
  #27  
Old September 8th, 2012, 06:17 PM
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Thread closed at the request of the OP.
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