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  #31  
Old November 8th, 2004, 10:34 PM
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I just had another thought - imagine that (sorry I get so verbose at times). Puppy socialization. You shouldn't have to pay for it! Pay people to teach you how to be a great dog person - not to socialize your dog.
Socialization needs to be happening all of the time, and with all kinds of creatures, not just other puppies. Different kinds of people, young and old, all kinds of EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY dogs, cats, horses, rabbits, birds etc. Different environments, loud, quiet, large, small, busy, bright, dark etc. The key is to expose your dog to everything in a positive manner, so that when they are faced with something new in life the dog remembers that so many new experiences were wonderful and fun and they are confident to experience more.
Depriving a dog of life's experiences can be just as cruel as neglect. Lack of good socialization can result in terrible emotional disorders which can lead to fear aggression, insecurities, phobias, etc. That's no way to raise a dog.
Remember that puppies have fear periods at approx. 8-10 weeks and again at 16 weeks. Becareful not to expose them to any scary situations (i.e. vet & shots), during this time. This is when memories imprint themselves for life. So if an old man stepped on your puppies toes and she screamed - she might always think of old men or old men's feet as scary. So if this happens don't fawn over her - inside you can think "poor thing", but on the outside try to be nonchalant about it otherwise you might be feeding the fear and creating a drama queen.
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  #32  
Old November 8th, 2004, 10:53 PM
PetTrainerMeeko PetTrainerMeeko is offline
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I'm sorry if I offended anyone, I didn't miss your point. I do agree that people shouldn't have to bribe their dogs with treats, and that they should work with treats on more of a random ratio type of method. With my own dogs I use just a clicker, and buckle collar, and have an 10 month old english mastiff puppy who walks perfectly next to me.

The problem I had with this post was that people were assuming that PetsMart and their trainers use this bribery method, when in reality the majority of them don't. I don't, neither do any of the trainers in my area. We are the same trainers that volunteer at the ASPCA on the weekends, and help out adoption centers because we want to work in different training areas, than just basic obedience.

I don't think you should have to bribe a dog to do things, but sometimes a strict treat ratio works with really problem dogs. I'm not saying it's an always situation, but by saying EVERY dog will work without food just isn't always true. One of my dogs will, the other one won't. My bloodhound, who is as stubborn as hounds go doesn't respond to anything besides praise, and his rubber frog pool toy. This is a form of bribery, as it is his motivation.

In training methods will be different from trainer to trainer, and schools, but I wish that people wouldn't discredit a store, or trainer because of the establishment. Check out your trainer, no matter where they are, and make sure their personality matches with your own, and the methods you want to use with your dog. The best trainers are the ones open to different ideas and methods, and willing to work with you to find the method that is right for your dog.

Again, I don't mean to offend anyone, and it's your right to disagree with me, I just wanted to give an bit of insight to those people who aren't training professionals who want to know about different training programs.
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  #33  
Old November 8th, 2004, 11:40 PM
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No worries, and thank you for coming on here to shed light on Petsmart. I love Petsmart for pet suppiles and such, and I don't think every trainer that has ever worked or does work for Petsmart is bad. Here in Calgary though, I have yet to meet a well rounded Petsmart trainer and I still can't agree with treat or clicker training knowing what I know, so we'll always disagree on that one.

Thank you very much Elizabeth for coming on here and sharing the knowledge you have gained. I wish I lived by you so I could learn as much as possible from you!! I am really glad you're on this board.
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  #34  
Old November 9th, 2004, 07:51 PM
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Thanks so much for the kind words, Pami. I wish I could beam you to Colorado too, but until then we have the web.
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  #35  
Old November 10th, 2004, 09:18 AM
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Dukieboy Dukieboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenderfoot
I just had another thought - imagine that (sorry I get so verbose at times). Puppy socialization. You shouldn't have to pay for it! Pay people to teach you how to be a great dog person - not to socialize your dog.
Socialization needs to be happening all of the time, and with all kinds of creatures, not just other puppies. Different kinds of people, young and old, all kinds of EMOTIONALLY HEALTHY dogs, cats, horses, rabbits, birds etc. Different environments, loud, quiet, large, small, busy, bright, dark etc. The key is to expose your dog to everything in a positive manner, so that when they are faced with something new in life the dog remembers that so many new experiences were wonderful and fun and they are confident to experience more.
Depriving a dog of life's experiences can be just as cruel as neglect. Lack of good socialization can result in terrible emotional disorders which can lead to fear aggression, insecurities, phobias, etc. That's no way to raise a dog.
Remember that puppies have fear periods at approx. 8-10 weeks and again at 16 weeks. Becareful not to expose them to any scary situations (i.e. vet & shots), during this time. This is when memories imprint themselves for life. So if an old man stepped on your puppies toes and she screamed - she might always think of old men or old men's feet as scary. So if this happens don't fawn over her - inside you can think "poor thing", but on the outside try to be nonchalant about it otherwise you might be feeding the fear and creating a drama queen.

With what is going on here with the proposed BSL and hysteria people don't want to interact with a pitbull puppy. They make judgements on sight and cross the street or actually leave the park. It is such a crucial time for my dog to interact with other people and dogs. If I have to pay for a little extra exposure I am willing to.

Last edited by Dukieboy; November 10th, 2004 at 09:19 AM. Reason: grammer
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  #36  
Old November 10th, 2004, 10:57 AM
dannyboy dannyboy is offline
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I took my dog when he was a puppy to PJ's pets for training. Due to his(Charlie's) car sick problem we decided to have the store instructor come to my house for training. Basically the trainer showed us how to walk him with a pinch collar (I don't know the proper name) and to sit so he gets treats. Now that he is 2 years old he behaves well while on a leash and sits nice for treats but when the collar comes off, all hell breaks lose. I'm now looking for some training for on or off the leash.
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  #37  
Old November 10th, 2004, 10:59 AM
rottnrottz rottnrottz is offline
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Petsmart Trainers

Hi There
I dont want to start a big debate here but I have been a pet trainer with Petsmart for 6 yrs now and when I first started with them Yes I will agree that it didnt matter who you were a cashier a floor cleaner you could be thrown a book and CABAMHHHHHHHH you were a dog trainer I worked so hard to change the attitudes of the public when I came on board and it was tough but I had been training dogs for 15 yrs and had to show the public that, it probably for my store took 2 yrs to change peoples opinions but Petsmart stands behind rescue groups and helps them alot so I stuck it out as that is something special for a big store to do they really dont just sell dog food.
Then petsmart got it together and put a program together about 2 yrs ago with 6 behaviourist including Pamela Reid and revamped the course in EVERY store
And each tranier has to do a 120 accredidation course and at the end of that they are evaluated by a Area trainer and if they are ready will do classes if they are not they will be trained until ready or let go. And when they are just starting their own classes they are limited to no more than 5 dogs at one time.
I feel Petsmart has come along way in the last 2 years so maybe come on in and have a sitdown and just watch a class it may change your out look.
Thank you for listening
Take care
Rottnrottz
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  #38  
Old November 10th, 2004, 11:56 AM
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Writing4Fun Writing4Fun is offline
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Thanks for coming on here RottnRottz! I think I had read somewhere that the training you (meaning Petsmart trainers in Ontario) received was in conjunction with a behaviour specialist at Guelph University. Is that true?
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  #39  
Old November 10th, 2004, 02:54 PM
yvonnem yvonnem is offline
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You know, I have been following this thread with much interest. Even before it started I had informed The Boyfriend that he was taking the mastiff puppy to PetSmart for puppy lessons.

Maple (the puppy, not TheBoy) can sit and drop and come and will behave mostly on the leash and knows "easy" when taking treats and "settle" when he gets too active. The training is mostly for TheBoy who has never been to obedience classes. He makes the standard novice mistakes -- his commands sound like a question, he repeats something 2 or 3 times, he calls the dog over to tell him "no". today is TheBoy's day off and this morning I made him take Maple over to the vet's office because the last time we were there, he was nervous and growled at the receptionist. They spent about half an hour in the office and the receptionist and the vet tech took turns giving him treats (the puppy, not TheBoy) and weighed him (42 pounds!!!! and he is only 12 weeks old). I have told TheBoy that he has to do that a couple more times before we go for our next set of shots.

See, I don't need to train the puppy, although the socialization with a number of other dogs and people will help him -- I need to train TheBoy -- and PetSmart will do that just fine.

PetSmart and other stores of that kind are a good way to get novice dog owners introducted to the idea of obedience classes and dog training. The program is short (8 weeks, I think) and the classes are small and the owners are going to be more relaxed about their surroundings.

When I took my first mastiff to a "real" training class I was in with about 25 other dogs and although I warned the trainer that Bo could be dog-aggressive, he did not believe me. And he picked on her because he thought she was slow and stupid. boy! did she scare him a time or two! Although the trainer had an excellent reputation in schutzhund (sp?) and in the rottie community, his training method was too punitive for my sensitive mastiff but I was too much of a novice to understand that his methods were the problem, not the dog's "stupidity".

I have watched a PetSmart class where "my" trainer was teaching and I think she is going to be just fine. She has a good sense of humour and is very patient and I had no arguments about what she was teaching (although Maple has already learned different words for some things). I'm not certain that we will continue with PetSmart classes after the puppy one is over, but we'll see ....
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  #40  
Old November 10th, 2004, 03:21 PM
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Hi Dukieboy

Isn't it so sad and nuts that people don't understand what great dogs pits can be? But we are working with a media driven - fear based society and the pits & rotties get the all the bad press. You really have a great opportunity to re-educate the public about pits and you sound like you are up for the job.
We had BSL here in Denver but they stopped it this past year. We have had so many attacks and deaths from dog attacks here - I can understand why people who don't know dogs would be scared. But I consider it our job to educate and expose people to emotionally healthy dogs and try to reverse the damage that has been done.
I didn't mean to say it was bad to do group classes for the socialization, but just that there are so many other (cheaper) choices available. Any and all (safe) socialization is best.
I suggest to my clients that they put a bandana on their dog (pits & pit mixes) - it makes them look friendlier and less scary to the general public. If you can teach him to carry a ball in his mouth that can also create a feeling of playfulness in eye of the beholder.
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  #41  
Old November 10th, 2004, 10:47 PM
PetTrainerMeeko PetTrainerMeeko is offline
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Thanks RottnRottz for coming an speaking up. It is hard to put out a good reputation, and it is good that our program has changed quite a bit in the past few years. I'm waiting to see what the new year holds in the way of classes, as they are revamping the list to give a better overall training experience instead of going through one class and thats it.

I like the idea of putting a bandana on a pittbull, they get such a bad rap here in Florida as well. Which is sad, cause pits can be wonderful sweet loving dogs with the right owners. I am more afraid of some smaller dogs than I am most larger breeds like Pitts and Rotties.
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  #42  
Old December 11th, 2004, 12:37 PM
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We decided to enroll Batman in the puppy classes which started today. We also have planned to enroll him in one of the very reputable dog training schools later. We just decided that that would be best for us.

I have to say that I was really dissapointed today. I do think that it is great that Petsmart offers an inexpensive accesible alternative for people who would not otherwise do puppy training. However the materials we covered today were SO basic and the instructor had never heard of "nothing is life is free". One of the other dog owners brought it up (didn't use that name) and she looked at her like she was crazy. Also the other people in the group clearly have done zero reseach. Batman already sits, stays, listens to us, comes when called, is improving with drop it and leave it. He is pretty good about stopping bad behaviour when asked to stop and his housetraining is really coming along well. He is doing so well because I have done lots of research and I am on this board and other boards and websites everyday keeping myself motivated with his training.

The group seemed to be where I would have been before I even decided to get a dog. Some didn't really understand crate training, or how to housetrain and the class is clearly aimed at them. I kept thinking that this type of class should be held for BEFORE people get their dogs. Infact come to think of it it should be for NOVICE DOG OWNERS... not just puppies. There should be a puppy class for people who have already had a dog.

Batman still has a lot to improve on so we will certainly make the most of the class. However after reading the book I really think this class will be more about motivating ME and the BF rather than teaching us new techniques etc. As well it will be good for Batman to practice his commands in a hugely distracting setting.

I am concerned about the amount of space allotted for the class. It hardly seems to fit all the pet owners...

As well our class is being taught by a trainee with an "experience trainer" of 4 years helping. The trainee is very nice but honestly she seemed to know less about dog training than I do... and I don't know much compared to lots of people on this board. The other experienced training seems alright and knows her stuff... but 4 years isn't THAT long to be supervising. I am a ballet teacher and I have been teaching now for 8 years (20 hours a week) and only now would I consider putting myself in a supervising situation.

Oh and one final observation. The trainers spent a lot of time talking about food rewards, finding the right one etc... I was left wondering about verbal praise or toys etc... I personally am only using treats (yogurt drops) for when he goes outside and very occasionally for when he comes to me when called.

After I go to a few more classes I will post again. I sort of wish I had known it was going to be like this before I had enrolled.
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  #43  
Old December 11th, 2004, 12:54 PM
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Can you get your $ back? Heck - it sounds like you should be teaching this class.
You can get the distractions you want for training by going to the park. It sounds like you have been doing such a great job that you are ready for that "very reputable dog training school" NOW! Give yourself credit for all that you have learned and worked hard on.
Do not think you have to be at a certain level of learning for that school to take you. They should welcome anyone at any stage of training - it should not matter where you are in your training for them to be helpful. The point should always be to educate the person so that the dog has the best environment possible for successful learning .
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  #44  
Old December 12th, 2004, 09:37 AM
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At this point we can only get our money back to do the class again at another time.

My fiance and I are so motivated now to get Batman in tiptop form for next Saturday. It should be easy because as long as we train in 5 minute intervals (not much longer) he seems HAPPY learning. In the New Year I am going to sign him up at "Who's Walking Who" which is supposed to be great and I believe they also have fly ball and agility.... so they really aren't just basic training.

Back to Petsmart... I would like to add that I am sure it makes a big difference depending on which instructor you have. So my advice to anyone enrolling would be to watch the different instructors in action to see which one seems the best. As well you could attend a few of the puppy seminars (free) to get a feel for different teachers.
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  #45  
Old December 29th, 2004, 12:25 AM
vivilee
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Thumbs up Treats are Bribery?

Clicker training is not bribery. The clicker is a "shaper" and the treats help to shape the behaviour you want to mark as correct.

Just because your dog is working for treats doesn't mean he doesn't love you. What motivates humans to work? Isn't it money, fun, happiness, etc.? What's fun and like currency to a dog? I would say it is food, recognition for doing a good job, praise, and the love of their human/pack leader.

The best way to reward good behaviour is a food treat because it is a shared resource. Your dog doesn't know that you don't also eat the same food as he does. He thinks you are sharing your food with him. That is pack mentality.

To get a really good idea of what clicker training is all about I would recommend the book by Karen Pryor called "Don't Shoot the Dog". She is the pioneer of clicker training and the book is not only a book for dogs but for all aspects of life in general. It's all about positive training and how being positive works faster and more efficiently than all other methods.

Of course, like humans, dogs are as individual as well. Clicker training is perfect for most dogs but perhaps not for an extreme alpha dog or a dog that is food aggressive. For abused, shy or insecure dogs, clicker training works wonders. I would choose the method of training that most corresponds to your beliefs, values and personality as well as your dog.
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  #46  
Old December 29th, 2004, 10:43 AM
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heeler's rock! heeler's rock! is offline
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Vivilee, I hope you don't mind, but I'm gonna disect what you just said.

Quote:
Just because your dog is working for treats doesn't mean he doesn't love you. What motivates humans to work? Isn't it money, fun, happiness, etc.? What's fun and like currency to a dog? I would say it is food, recognition for doing a good job, praise, and the love of their human/pack leader.
It is true that your dog still loves you, but they don't respect you and your word. I have seen HUNDREDS of dogs at offleash areas that DO NOT listen to their owners, because the owners treat train. What does someone do when they forget their treats at home? I've also seen dogs get into fights over treats at offleash parks, because the owner whips out a bag of goodies to get their dog back to them, and then all the other dogs come crowding around to get one, and they fight over it! That's ridiculous! If my dog isn't going to listen to me because it respects me, then I haven't done my job of being the Alpha pack member.

Quote:
The best way to reward good behaviour is a food treat because it is a shared resource. Your dog doesn't know that you don't also eat the same food as he does. He thinks you are sharing your food with him. That is pack mentality.
The best way to motivate and reward your dog, is praise. Lots of chest massaging and kind words, not food. I've never seen an Alpha male of a wolf pack, give a cub a treat for good behaviour. That is most definitely not pack mentality. When wolves communicate, they are efficient and they do not negotiate. When a cub steps out of line, the Alpha corrects him quickly and efficiently. There is no room for negotiation where as treats leave TONS of room for negotiation. When I see people treat train, and I have treat trained my oldest dog, if the dog doesn't listen, you keep trying and the dog keeps blowing you off. The dog learns that you're not serious, and it doesn't have to listen to a word you say. The training I do now, corrects the dog immediately so the bad behaviour doesn't repeat itself, and the dog knows I mean business.

Quote:
To get a really good idea of what clicker training is all about I would recommend the book by Karen Pryor called "Don't Shoot the Dog". She is the pioneer of clicker training and the book is not only a book for dogs but for all aspects of life in general. It's all about positive training and how being positive works faster and more efficiently than all other methods.
You are right, treats are a quick way to get your dog to sit, rollover, shake a paw, and lie down, but it is not how you get your dog to listen to you. Treats only mask unwanted behaviours, and they only work for a limited amount of time. Proper training involves a lot of time, energy, and dedication, but the results last a lifetime and the rewards are immensely worth it. It gives me great pride when I can call my year and a half old puppies once, and they come running back to me immediately, while someone with an older dog, has to chase it all over the park because the treats aren't as good as the pee on the branch. The other great thing about establishing Alpha and not using treats or clickers, is that it will work for any dog, no matter what. The methods are clear, simple, and direct, and because dogs do work in packs, all dogs are capable of learning the desired behaviours. I can get a dog to sit on a snap within the first hour of ever seeing it, without talking to it once. That's because I leave no room to negotiate what I'm asking the dog to do. People are way too talkative with their dogs! The more you say your dogs name, the less importance it will have when you need it to. I only talk to my dogs when absolutely neccessary.

Too many people opt for the quickest route possible. Treats, clickers, and haltis don't solve any issues, they only cover them up. People need to invest more time correcting the unwanted behaviour, and only praise the dog with love and affection, not treats.

Quote:
Clicker training is perfect for most dogs but perhaps not for an extreme alpha dog or a dog that is food aggressive.
Most dogs become food agressive and Alpha because of treat training. The top dog gets the treat! My oldest became food agressive after she was treat trained. I would have to say the treats and clickers don't work. They only look like they do.
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  #47  
Old December 29th, 2004, 10:54 AM
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tiernan tiernan is offline
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Really?

Why not? You have the benefit of all the store distractions and socialization.

Also, I think it really depends on who the trainers are. Where we are from the trainer is one that is nationally recognized.

My previous dog was never trained, however, with my new girl we are going to take her to the Petsmart basic training course and I will let you all know how it goes.

Have a great day!
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  #48  
Old December 29th, 2004, 11:07 AM
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I'm not going to repeat myself on all the reasons why I don't agree with treat training. Most of it is from personal experience. As for store distractions, it's nothing compared to being at an off leash park, a road, or even in the neighbourhood. The 2 most important influences on me in respect to training, are also nationally renowned. Neither uses treats. Infact, one of them was the sole doggie daycare provider for the X-files and is credited with starting the first ever doggie daycare in Canada. Anyways, I'm not badmouthing Pet Smart or their trainers and I agree that socialization is extremely important for developing puppies. I just can't and will never agree with treat training. I used to, and then I saw the light and the error of my ways. There's no going back for me. Good luck with your classes.
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  #49  
Old December 29th, 2004, 11:34 AM
vivilee
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There are good clicker trainers and there are bad clicker trainers. Good clicker trainers use treats randomly. If you treat each and every time you make a command, then yes, your dog will eventually assume that he gets a treat everytime you click--I mean wouldn't you? However, randomly using treats and making it feel like a game means that the training remains fun.

As for the sharing of resources, wolves definetly share their food with members of the pack otherwise how would the pack survive. The top wolf just lets the other members eat--which is exactly what you are doing with treats. If a member of the pack disregards the rules of the top wolf, then top wolf will not let him eat, or growl, ignore, fight or send him away. Simple as that.

The thing is, dogs do see humans as different from themselves, otherwise why would they adapt to our demands like peeing in one spot, rolling over, giving paw and doing tricks for our approval. Every behaviour within a household is very different from living in the wild. Dogs are not wolves and wolves are certainly not dogs--although they do share some of the same instincts. And yes, a wolf will not ask a member of its pack to do tricks for a piece of meat but it will share meat for being cooperative.

Did you know that wolves do not bark? Barking is completely dog. As well, with between 20,000 - 50,000 years of ancestry between wolf and dog the ancestry is so removed that dogs and wolves are very different--just looking at the appearence of dogs vs. wolves is evidence enough. Dogs are more scavengers than hunters--that is how they became domesticated. If a dog is a scavenger then it makes complete sense how dogs respond so well to treats. I don't think it would be possible to clicker train a feral wolf unless the training were started very early on.
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  #50  
Old December 29th, 2004, 05:55 PM
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I know all of what you said already, but it doesn't change the fact that dogs learn quite effectively without treats. Whether or not they look like wolves doesn't change the fact that they still operate in packs. Have you seen dogs together? Even at offleash parks they form packs with eachother all the time! Because I am Alpha with all 3 of my dogs, I have the ability to step in whenever I deem fit, and they have to listen to me. I also maintain control over them at all times. There is no need to treat train your dog when you can get more consistant results without. I know that wolf packs share their food, but at feeding time, the Alpha eats first and lets the rest of the pack eat what he allows them to, when he allows them to. I'm saying that they don't reward the cubs with food everytime they sit. That's ridiculous!

Don't get me wrong, my training isn't harsh or mean, it's just very direct. I only correct what needs correcting at the time, and I also praise like crazy when they do good. I also give my dogs treats, but at random. They don't have to do a task to get a treat. That way they don't associate the two.

Even using treats part time can be harmful. When I got my red heeler, I treat trained her because I didn't know any better. After that, she became food agressive and grabbed food out of your hand! My brother-in-law was eating a sandwich and Red jumped up and took it right out of his hands, right in front of me!! She'd never done that before. It took a while to correct that, and it's still there, just not as bad. She still begs at dinner time, the whole time. Anyways, I'll never agree with treats and clickers because they aren't neccessary. There is no need to use them when you can get your dog to listen and work for you out of respect for you. It's quite simple actually.
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  #51  
Old December 30th, 2004, 02:54 PM
vivilee
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Well, I guess every dog is different. I've clicker trained my dog and she doesn't beg at the table and she certainly doesn't grab anything out of my grasp when I'm eating it...but I guess I can see how that could happen. Too bad for the dog and for you. That's why I always say that it is not for every dog. But when it does work, it works very well.

The only thing I don't like about clicker training is the fact that you can't use it for housetraining. It's a great communication tool for everything else but housetraining. That's probably why I'm having such great difficulty right now with my pup.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that you have your methods down and that you care so much about your dogs. It's just that I don't agree with all that you say but that's all that it is really, an opinion.
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  #52  
Old December 30th, 2004, 03:49 PM
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Maybe I am just slow or dense, but I have a hard time with the whole clicker training concept. I tell my dog to sit, she does, I praise. No need for a clicker here.

My dog gets out of the yard, is across the street. She sees me and comes running. I see a car coming. I yell "SIT!" , she sits. Saved from car. No time for clicker here.

Am I missing something? If so, could someone explain it to me?
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  #53  
Old December 30th, 2004, 04:08 PM
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heeler's rock! heeler's rock! is offline
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I understand. Training is a very touchy subject sometimes. Just to clarify, I never clicker trained my oldest dog. I did treat train her though, and that's what led to the food snatching. She's really very good now. I do care deeply about my dogs, and other people's too. That's why I'm against treat and clicker training. I feel that it causes more harm than good in the long run. I do enjoy a good debate about it all! Good luck with house breaking your pup. Some dogs just take longer than others.
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Old December 31st, 2004, 10:48 AM
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tenderfoot tenderfoot is offline
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Looks like I have been missing out on another good debate.
Ms Pryor has done a great job and she has changed so many people lives around to her methods. Thinking positively is the best way to teach. Kudos!
For animals who are not relationship oriented I would try bribery. But even my parrots cooperate out of relationship with us - not food. I heard a great story once of Karen Pryor working with a Commodo Dragon and she got him to cooperate wonderfully with a clicker & mice. That makes total sense with such an animal, but dogs are different. It works with dogs no doubt, but is it the best option? That is for each individual person to decide. It certainly isn't the only option.
If 'click and treat' works for you great, but to us it is the difference between a child having good manners out of love & RESPECT for the people around them NOT because they are getting little bits of candy everytime they do something right.
Clickers are simply replacements for your voice and touch. If you can click faster than you can speak then I guess it would be an option. But are you really improving your relationship? Or would your voice or touch build deeper relationship? I would certainly rather have my hubby kiss me than have him toss me a cookie. One is far more personal, and, yes, dogs thrive on relationship - it's why they are such a big part of our lives.
Many of our clients come from other training methods and find they do not always hold up in the average home with behavioral issues. Treat based training (which clickers are) only seem to touch the surface of communication. They keep things on 'a do it for a treat' basis. We prefer to work with our animals from a love & respect foundation that lasts a lifetime. I don't want to carry extra gimmicks with me - it's just me and my friend and we understand each other.
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  #55  
Old December 31st, 2004, 10:55 AM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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Good. I am not any dumber than I thought I was.
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Old December 31st, 2004, 11:25 AM
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Elizabeth, you're so eloquent! I love reading your posts! They make so much sense! I hope someday that I will be able to make as much sense!!
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  #57  
Old December 31st, 2004, 12:35 PM
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mona_b mona_b is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LavenderRott
. I am not any dumber than I thought I was.
Your too funny Sandi....

When my dogs were pups,and I was training them,I gave them treats.When you have 2 3month old puppies you need to motivate them and get their attention.I used the treats with all the basic commands in the first part of their training prossess.And this was how I trained my previous GSD.And guess what,none of them ever tried to take any food from anyone.Everyone I know who has treat trained has never had a problem with this either.Heck,this is how my sister trained her 3 Huskies and Border Collie.Again,no problems with food snatching either.When my dogs were off leash,all I had to do was call them once and they came right away.I praised them,and gave them their favorite ball.Leash went on and we were on our merry way back home.I had to start to reward Tron with his favorite ball.This is how my brother wanted me to do it.So I also started to do it with Yukon.But yes,I still gave them treats.Why?Cause they were good boys....

As for the comment about the dogs not listening when off leash,don't think it has anything to do with treats.It has more to do with not being taught the re call command.Which is one of the most important commands.Along with sit,stay,down and heel.

Just my input on this.
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Old December 31st, 2004, 12:39 PM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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I will never understand why anyone would take a dog that was not 100% reliable on a recall to some place and turn them loose. Chase is very reliable on a recall, but she tends to be a bit on the slow side. She is rarely taken anywhere unfenced where she is allowed off leash for this reason. Missy, well, that will probably never happen. Once that nose of her kicks in, a bull horn won't get her attention.
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Old December 31st, 2004, 12:45 PM
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mona_b mona_b is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LavenderRott
I will never understand why anyone would take a dog that was not 100% reliable on a recall to some place and turn them loose..
I'm with you on this one.
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Old December 31st, 2004, 12:54 PM
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With all this talk of conditioning a dog, love and respect I have got to say very emphatically, Dogs are INCAPABLE of love. Bonding and respect and understanding comfort zones yes but love? uh-uh.
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