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Old October 4th, 2004, 04:44 PM
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Toyger?

Has anyone heard of this fairly new designer cat breed called the Toyger? It is truly a beautiful cat, but I was wondering if it was a hoax or for real....? As well, any thoughts on it being designer and the problems it may have? Or just any thoughts on it at all
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Old October 4th, 2004, 04:57 PM
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I did a search on google. this is what i got from one web site:

"The Toyger is a designer cat. It is designed and bred with the demands of modern apartment life as a human companion foremost in mind. Glittered, pelted, dramatic pattern appeals to both the high-tech glamour and nature-loving, wild dreams of city-caught people while the laid back, easily trained character of these cats make them a joy to live with.

The Toyger is a breed in development. Recognized by TICA for Registration early in the 1990's and lovely even now, the goals for the breed are long term and the prospect even more exciting! Several of the features proposed have never before been recognized as possible in a domestic cat. Progress is slow but steady in all areas from companionability to appearance."

Also:
The Toyger cat is a medium sized, short haired domestic cat reminescent of a toy tiger. Designed with a modern city life with humans in mind, it is an intellegent and willing companion animal, active and highly trainable. Color and markings are that of a satin toy while type suggests a big cat---long bodied and tailed, large boned and muscular, round ears, large chin-leading muzzle with broad nose tip. This cat will one day resemble a tiny, shiny toy tiger on leash or playing with the kids.


You can also look at this site http://toygers.org/

Im not sure what this is, but to me it just seems like humans are turning cats into a science project to make the "perfect" cat. Seems very selfish to me.
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Old October 5th, 2004, 09:10 AM
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They are certainly beautiful....but I cannot help feeling concerned about how they managed to produce this new breed
How long before cats are"produced"without claws?
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Old October 5th, 2004, 10:09 AM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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We already have millions of beautiful and even purebred homeless cats who would make "perfect apartment pets". Is there really a need to breed more as status symbols?
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Old October 5th, 2004, 10:11 AM
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Great just what the world needs more designer cats and dogs there are not quite enough that are homeless.
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Old October 5th, 2004, 10:49 AM
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Unfortunatey in this world we live in it's anything for a buck!!
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Old October 5th, 2004, 12:30 PM
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When I was looking for breeds I stumbled across this page and saw the picture of a Toyger and thought "Wow, I never knew about this breed". As I read on I started to feel really uncomfortable - something was not quite right. I love Bengals and I thought that this cat was gorgeous, but there was one question stuck in my mind.....How ARE they bred? They never say what the cross mix is just that it is supposed to look like a toy tiger. Tiger beauty and muzzle in dometicated cat form. This was why I thought that maybe it was a hoax. Now I am sure it is truly real. As well, most breeding pages they will tell you what problems they are prone as well as their good - this one does not, it just speaks of the good qualities about them. After being bred for 14 years, you would think they would know. There are just so many things that I have questions about.

On a side note: None of us can really say that it was originally intended just to make extra cash. We cannot say this unless we know the individual(s) personally. As I am sure designing a new breed comes to far more money then they could ever make back. I am sure there are more people breeding them now and maybe a few are in it for the money, but on the most part it is an animal which I am sure the owners deeply love and breed for the love of the breed.
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Old May 9th, 2005, 12:16 PM
KiraceToygers KiraceToygers is offline
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Toygers

Having read the posts in the discussion to date, I feel it necessary to put a "Toyger angle" on the discussion.

First, I want it known that of our 9 indoor and countless outdoor cats, to date only one is a Toyger, while the others are rescues and a feral colony living under my house and in my "barn". These cats are no less special to me than the Toyger, and all indoor and most outdoor are either spayed or neutered. I agree there are way to many unwanted cats into the world.

Next to the Toyger breed. I want everyone to be aware that the "best" Toygers in 2005, will hopefully not be the same in 2007. We are constantly working within our programs to improve the breed. There are several bloodlines out there that for the time being we are sharing to get to a ceratin point in the breed. This is a work in progress and we have no doubt that down the road much work is going to have to be done, to get the Toyger in our mind's eye. We are protective over our animals making sure that they get the best medical care, et al as required.

We work as a team, as our numbers are relatively small. But we all know that as the adage goes, "no chain is stronger than the weakest link" we want all of our breed to be the best. Because we are seeking the ideal, the litters born may not produce a single Toyger that maintains or advances the breed. Any that fall short are altered, and either kept or sold as pets only. Before anyone gets upset I used the term sold, we make no apologies that yes our Catteries are a business. If we see defects, such as tail faults, as the kitten ages, the kitten is altered. We are careful to have no animals that do not meet our standard reproducing, but understand that people still get a loving Toyger companion.

Our better males and females are sold to knew breeders, or shared among the group to get desired effects. For example, Eeyaa Abracadabra (our Toyger), while she has a great personality, in my opinion needs to be bred to a larger Toyger with greater contrast of striping and braiding. I love this little girl, but she will likely only produce two or three litters before she is altered. Once she stops being a breeder, I will love and care for her no less. She is a part of the family. But I have to be practical she is far from ideal.

I have talked to Judy Sugden and it appears that when ready to breed, this young dame will mate with WarHoop, and hopefully this will give us a strong female for breeding. Further, we are working out the logistics of obtaining another female for our Toyger Breeding program. If this all pans out we will have three good breeders and then we can start working on getting two or three good males for breeding. This allows for more combinations, and provides that females do not breed every time they go into season. As I started earlier, the health of our Toygers is quite important.

This is not going to be an inexpensive, nor overnight process. But one that we are passionate about. Therefore I request that rather than simply judging, keep up with this wonderful breed and see where the future takes us.


Regards,
Chris Biagi
Kirace Toygers

Last edited by KiraceToygers; May 9th, 2005 at 12:23 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2005, 06:28 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Quote:
But I have to be practical she is far from ideal.
I'm just curious - why would someone breed any animal at all (much less two or three times) that is "far from ideal"??
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Old May 9th, 2005, 07:48 PM
KiraceToygers KiraceToygers is offline
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Toygers

Lucky--

As I stated in my earlier post, we are working TOWARDS the ideal. There is NO IDEAL. We are currently working on specific traits, improving, fine tuning. Again as I stated in the earlier post, cats that are show/breeder quality Toygers now, will not be three or four years down the road. Long story short TOYGERS ARE A WORK IN PROGRESS. You have better Toygers, and you have Toygers. With a finite amount Toygers to work with, we can at present only be so particular as to what is deemed breeder quality. Obviously certain traits, such as the mentioned tail fault, will prevent a Toyger from being a breeder.

Chris Biagi
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Old May 9th, 2005, 08:00 PM
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what do you, and will you do with all your "works in progress"? it may take years and many many litters to "perfect" this. I am just curious what you will do with all these "not so ideal" litters?
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Old May 9th, 2005, 08:08 PM
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The no so ideal litters may be handled like the F1 and F2 generations of the Spyhnx- which is actually recognized as a breed but a breed that occured as a mutation not by the meddling of humans - spmething we dabate weekly on an ethics committee I sit on. I think I'd be on the opposite side of the issue here - there are so many beautiful kitties now. I can see taking a mutation of a gene and creating a cat (well maybe - I find sphynxes need much care and it irks me when I see unscrupulous "breeders" claiming they are dander free -(Give me a break!!). Cats should be bred for the improvement and enhancement of the breed - not at the whim of some hobby geneticst. And to create a breed that will be healthy and strong!

They are however. VERY cute (tho I am still partial to my Siamese, lol) and at least not like the people who want an actual pet tiger! Ugh!
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Old May 9th, 2005, 08:42 PM
Lucky Rescue Lucky Rescue is offline
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Thanks for your reply. I"m not trying to be critical, just trying to understand.

Quote:
There is NO IDEAL.
According to the International Cat Association, there IS an ideal, and they plainly state what the standard calls for.

So if your queen is out of standard - "far from ideal" in your words, why would you breed her? If you have a stud who is near perfect, the usual procedure is to find a near perfect queen somewhere and arrange a breeding with that owner

The standard may change down the road, as you say, but that is no reason to breed an out of standard cat now, since you have no way of knowing what the future standard will require. Does that make any sense, or no?

I'm just asking!
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Old May 9th, 2005, 09:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KiraceToygers
we make no apologies that yes our Catteries are a business.

This bothers me.

In my mind this would be a reason your breeding a less then perfect example of the breed.


and if thats the case id feel much better going to a rescue and finding a cat in need then purchasing a cat as merchandise because they look great and have an interesting name but are bred from less then perfect lines.


to me there are too many cats that truely need a loving and prmanent home, that if im gonna settle for less then perfect im goign to go for a cat that otherwise may not get a good chance at life


just my opinions

Eleni
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Old May 9th, 2005, 09:13 PM
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Could you please post a link for the Standard of Toygers LuckyRescuse, i am at the TICA website, but am unable to locate breed standards.

Edit: I apologize, I was looking on the TICA website, I goggled and found the breed standard. However, it does say Preliminary New Breed ... it is possible that the iamge the original breeder was attempting to crate has not been fully created as of yet.
This goes back to the designer dogs threads as well. Most of our dogs, were mutts, or 'designer' breeds at some time or another.

2nd Edit: Well i was atetmpting to find the past breed standards of different breeds, but am unable to find exactley what I was looking for. Perhaps Mona_B could be of asssitance in regards to that. My point is Breed standards can change, after a vote by the members of the breed club, or the organization they are registered under. So, it is possible that the Toyger breed is not ideal as of yet, therefore, there are no Ideal Toygers, only ones that are better, working towards ideal, the original image pictured by the first person trying to make a Toyger.

Last edited by Safyre; May 9th, 2005 at 09:30 PM.
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Old May 9th, 2005, 10:22 PM
KiraceToygers KiraceToygers is offline
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Toygers...try again

YES, there is an IDEAL, and IDEAL in what we want. In the end, what we want is a domestic cat, that looks like a mini tiger, hence the name Toyger. This IDEAL does not exist at present so we are combining and working on specific facets to improve. There are NO perfect Toygers, so when I say my queen is no ideal, I am being literal as per the standard. Even our standard is a work in progress.
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Old May 10th, 2005, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyRescue
Thanks for your reply. I"m not trying to be critical, just trying to understand.



According to the International Cat Association, there IS an ideal, and they plainly state what the standard calls for.

So if your queen is out of standard - "far from ideal" in your words, why would you breed her? If you have a stud who is near perfect, the usual procedure is to find a near perfect queen somewhere and arrange a breeding with that owner

The standard may change down the road, as you say, but that is no reason to breed an out of standard cat now, since you have no way of knowing what the future standard will require. Does that make any sense, or no?

I'm just asking!
I have to agree with this big time.

I am no cat expert,but I don't think it is much different then what is entitled to the dog standards.

A reputalble responsible dog breeder would NEVER breed a Dam that was out of standard.They have standards for a reason.This shows the breed is an IDEAL breed.These dogs are shown,have Championships,and are titled.They breed both show and pet quality pups.And breeders are pretty good picking out the difference.They will keep a pup or two to continue the line of champions.And I am so very sure that reputable cat breeders do the same.

Question.What are you charging for this "designer" breed?

I'm sorry,but it just saddens me that another designer breed is out there.Considering that there are soooooooooo many cats out there needing loving homes.And alot of us on here are the ones taking them in or adopting them..What people will do for money...Sorry if I sound harsh.But that's just how I feel about this.
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Old May 10th, 2005, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happycats
what do you, and will you do with all your "works in progress"? it may take years and many many litters to "perfect" this. I am just curious what you will do with all these "not so ideal" litters?
Can you please answer my question?
What do you do with all the "not so ideal" or defective litters?
As I can't see anyone paying money for a "mutt" cat.
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Last edited by happycats; May 10th, 2005 at 09:16 AM.
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Old May 10th, 2005, 10:08 AM
Safyre Safyre is offline
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Happycats - I believe your answer is in one of the posts already
Quote:
the litters born may not produce a single Toyger that maintains or advances the breed. Any that fall short are altered, and either kept or sold as pets only. Before anyone gets upset I used the term sold, we make no apologies that yes our Catteries are a business. If we see defects, such as tail faults, as the kitten ages, the kitten is altered. We are careful to have no animals that do not meet our standard reproducing, but understand that people still get a loving Toyger companion.
Mona - You'd probably be the best one to ask .... hasn't the breed standard for dogs changed since they have been registered? I found a requested change for Shiloh Sheperd last night, as well as another one for a different breed (ha, it was late, can't remember name).
I beleive that this "toyger" got listed as a breed when it hadn't met it's full ideal as of yet, therefore, the standard is still changing. I beleive the same happens with new breeds of dogs, I highly doubt that dog standards NEVER change.

I'm just asking that people look at this another way ... we all love out purebred dogs, but at some point, they were just someones idea to put together ... for whatever reasons.
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Old May 10th, 2005, 10:57 AM
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Yes "some" breed standards have changed.Now remember alot of these breeds come from as far as the 1800's.So times do change.And so does the breed.But many breeds have not changed in such a long time..They have become the ideal standard.As for the Shiloh,It's still what I would classify as a new breed.Which they were a mix of a GSD and a Malamute.They only got recognized in 1991 under the Rare Breed.So this breed will have a few changes because it is a new breed.But they can still compete in shows that are specificly for the rare breed.And they can also be altered.

As for Cats.Same thing goes.Many have been around for quite some time.I checked one of my books that has reputable breeders with titled Champions.

Here is some info.

Siamese.....1800's

Sphynx (canadian ).....1966.....(good year )

Tonkinese(another canadian bred)...1960's

Manx...........1588

Himalayan....1955
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Old May 10th, 2005, 01:05 PM
KiraceToygers KiraceToygers is offline
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Toygers,

I have read, and in many cases re-read posts, and it finally dawned on me. This isn't about Toygers, this is about new breeds. Someone mentioned how they liked Bengals, but they never noted that the Bengal was a designed breed. If they had, they likely would have known that the lady quite responsible for Bengals, is the mother of the woman at the forefront of designing Toygers.

Each show we run into judges that just tolerate judging new breeds and new traits. They are not interested in the work being done, nor progress being made. They do what the "have" to do and get it over with. That seems frankly to be the attitude here.

I have mentioned in most of my posts, that while there is a written standard as per requirements of TICA, there has not been a single Toyger fully meet the standard. Frankly there are traits in our standard that we are aware of the difficulty in meeting. Take for example the smaller, rounded ears...you do not find this in any species of domestic cat, thus there is going to be a problem. That is whay as I mentioned earlier, that this is a work in progress.

When I call a Toyger either better or not, I am merely judging it by its distance from the standard. Like the Bengal when it started, and even breeds like the Sphynx and Tonkinese that earlier seemed to be being fawned over had to be worked on, and you still get better and not in the breed. That is why you see some shown as Championship, some as Alter, and even some as Household Pet.

I will be the first to admit, there are designer breeds out there that do not interest me, as far as owning or breeding. The Napoleon Cat comes to mind. But you know what, I have to accept that there are those who will in fact want just that breed. Just as there will be those who want Toygers, or Maine Coons, or Persians, ad nauseum.

People have in this thread made such a fuss over the number of unwanted cats. I agree it is a problem. I have a house full of rescues and a colony of ferals I care for and get meds for, and get altered. But the "breeders" you seem to fret over are not just in cats, you will find them in dogs, horses, etc. The Toyger breeders I know, and I have dealt with most on one level or another, are uniform in their caring for the welfare primarily of all their Toygers.

Most have requirements of talking to vets, meeting the person, and more before there is ever a definite sell. I would never sell to someone, who when I called a vet, I obtained a less than stellar recommendation on. Nor would there be a transaction where the person had no direction as to where they wanted to go, what they were looking for.

Someone asked the price we sold Toygers for. I see no need to get into that issue as there is no interest here even in the success of the breed. With no interest in the breed, any amount will be to much.

But in closing, the main thing is I love working with Toygers, wouldn't prefer any other breed. Whether we ever make it to a "Championship" breed or not, I love our breed, and in the end that matters more than whether anyone accepts the breed or not.
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Old May 10th, 2005, 02:28 PM
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Re: But in closing, the main thing is I love working with Toygers, wouldn't prefer any other breed. Whether we ever make it to a "Championship" breed or not, I love our breed, and in the end that matters more than whether anyone accepts the breed or not.

I still don't understand. You have to have a champion in order TO breed. Otherwise, you are breeding a cat with flaws no matter how you cut it. And that makes no sense at all unless you are in it to make money which is highly unethical and makes you just another backyard breeder no matter how good your intentions are. Do you have a geneticist on staff? Or are you one so that you can do what you are doing? Or at least a consulting vet with some specialty in this? Otherwise, you are just creating a breedfor profit and I find that utterly appalling!
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Old May 10th, 2005, 09:09 PM
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Thanks for the response Mona, I was having difficulty finding the correct info online .. you're so useful
CyberKitten - I believe you are failing to understand that the standard of the breed, is not complete for Toygers.
The person who originated the breed, had an ideal in their mind, to this date, that ideal has not yet happened. Therefore, they continue to work on the standard, breeding cats with the qualities they are looking for, to better the breed standard. At this point, championship does not matter, the breed is still being worked out. Once the breed is perfect, to the ideal the first person had in mind, then only champions will be breed, same as any other show cat.
The process is slow to 'create' a breed.

I am saying this for anyone 'making' a breed... not just Toygers. Standards can change.
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Old May 10th, 2005, 10:19 PM
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Oh I understand - I do not believe it ethical to "create" a breed. We are not God - sighhhh. I sit on an ethics committtee - always figured that obscure "Contemporary Moral Problems" course I took as an elective way back when I was a lowly undergrad would come in handy, lol - but seriously, I am not entirely opposed to enhancing and making more healthy cats born with muations (like sphynx for example - providing it is done scientifcally, cautiously and with much research and support - and LOVE of the breed.) But this is something akin to the labradoodles and I am uncomfortabke with it. If the individual is doing it scientifically and adopting out the F1 and F2 generations - with the same strict guidelines say a rescue or a scrupulous breeder - and has an excellent supprt team in place, MAYBE!!!!! But it all is a bit like Mary Sheley's Fankenstein and done for humans and not for the cat!!! That is the part I have trouble with.
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Old May 10th, 2005, 10:26 PM
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Don't you have a Siamese? Thats a fairly new breed too!

Ethics ... I see you're point, i don't like the idea of MAKING a breed just because you can. But, if you look back at the history of breeds, they were all made for specific reasons. Who are we to say what are the right and wrong reasons to create a breed? If i am not mistaken, there is a breed out there, whose original purpose was to be a foot warmer (Im thinking it's one of the hairless Chinese Crested or that Xiosomethingoranother one. My grade 7 teacher told us ... and that was many moons ago) *shrugs* If people are being responsible in thier attempts, who are we to hate? Lets worry about the abuse and neglect of animals.... once that is under control, then go after the designers. Thats my thought at least
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Old May 10th, 2005, 10:46 PM
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I have to say though, the markings on that kitty are incredible...
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Old May 10th, 2005, 11:01 PM
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I think what some posters are trying to say is that there is no logic/need to create a new breed, until we find homes for all the breeds that already exist, and there is some kind of actual demand for new ones.
Given the overpopulation of pets right now, why on earth create new ones?
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Old May 10th, 2005, 11:15 PM
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The fact of the matter is that there are very few "natural" breeds of dogs or cats. As a matter of fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head. Most of the recognised breeds that we have today were bred much like this woman describes in the breeding of these kitties. Perfect specimens being bred to one or two that are slightly less then perfect that has a desirable trait that needs to be strengthened in the breed.

Since this is in the hopes of creating a new breed, it sounds like they are being VERY careful about what happens to the kittens that don't meet the ideal. As for people being offended by the whole idea of a cattery and selling less then perfect kittens - many responsible dog breeders (by the standards that most people here hold dear) have kennels (or kennel names anyway) and sell puppies that don't meet the standard for one reason or another. There really is no difference.

Another fact is - humans keep multiplying and growing up. At some point a majority of them want to have their own home or at least a place to call home. Since no one has yet figured out how to grow more land, apartments are popping up all over the place. While some of us might not feel the need for a new breed of cat for apartment dwellers - I am sure that some people didn't feel the need for little fluffy lap dogs when they were being developed.

Sounds to me like KT is being responsible in developing this new breed. I certainly don't think it compares to Labradoodles that are being born in backyards across the continent with an eye not on any kind of standard except the high price that people are willing to pay for one.
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Old May 11th, 2005, 06:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Flower
I think what some posters are trying to say is that there is no logic/need to create a new breed, until we find homes for all the breeds that already exist, and there is some kind of actual demand for new ones.
Given the overpopulation of pets right now, why on earth create new ones?

Cactus Flower, you read my mind, that's exactly how I feel!
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  #30  
Old May 11th, 2005, 09:34 AM
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mona_b mona_b is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Hamilton Ont
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactus Flower
I think what some posters are trying to say is that there is no logic/need to create a new breed, until we find homes for all the breeds that already exist, and there is some kind of actual demand for new ones.
Given the overpopulation of pets right now, why on earth create new ones?
I second that........

Also,why do we need a cat that looks like a tiger?

We already have our lovely wild looking cats..
Our Bengal and Pixie-Bob.......



Safyre,Siamese have actually been around since the 1800's......
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