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  #31  
Old September 13th, 2011, 03:29 PM
Digston Digston is offline
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I appreciate the input and I'll be fine just gotta play the waiting game to get into school. I WILL become a vet tech no matter the cost or the pay. Everyday I come to work is a good day. My calling is to work with animals and there are lots of ways that I can put my knowledge to use. Petland made me better, think what you may of the company, but I will always be grateful for every day I worked there.
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  #32  
Old September 13th, 2011, 03:33 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Well that is good then. Everything in life works that way for a reason. Your mission may lead you to a place where you will be actually saving animals rather than helping an industry destroy them.

Best of luck to you in a very promising future.
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  #33  
Old September 13th, 2011, 04:20 PM
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Myka Myka is offline
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Originally Posted by Digston View Post
My dear Myka, we share a city and I make more than $10 an hour but I am also in the department head grouping. As well I would be very interested to know where I could find a position that pays $22 an hour. In my research I have found the average to be about $15
I don't know why you are finding such different wages then. Saskatoon does suck for wages though. Go to Alberta and you will make 25-50% more doing the same darn thing. Frustrating as hell, and the reason why I worked in northern Alberta for a year and a half to get ahead far enough I am able to start my own home business.

Department head grouping? As in department manager? A friend of mine is a department manager at one of the Petland stores here and he was able to tell me the wages there as I was interested in getting a part-time job - until he told me the wages!

Why would someone go to university for 2 years to make $15/hr? That is absolutely ridiculous. I'm not sure which vet offices you were looking at wages. Even UPS and FedEx pay $14/hr to sort mail, and $16/hr to drive the little delivery truck around. They have good benefit packages too.

I have always believed in short term sacrifices for long term gains. Sometimes you have to do something you don't like to get to the something you do like.

EDIT: Wow, I just did a quick job search for Vet Tech in the area and there were two jobs avertising $15-19/hr depending on experience. Good God, that's awful. Not worth going to university for that.
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Peewee - Jan 2006 - 8 lb Chihuahua (adopted May 2009)
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  #34  
Old September 13th, 2011, 11:02 PM
Nigel pezington Nigel pezington is offline
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Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
If a breeder does the proper health testing, a lot of the 'common problems' that have been listed normally have a better chance of being avoided altogether. With all due respect, it's common sense that if you toss two well bred, health tested (meaning no glaring red flags) dogs together that your chances of producing a healthy litter increase ten fold. If you take two dogs, no idea on the health of them - then it's a crap shoot. Of course the unexpected can always happen, and just because one does the proper health testing doesn't mean it's a guarantee; but at least you've increased your chances with the healthy dogs

These 'purebreds' you may be referring to are probably the product of backyard breeders - so yes, they sadly do give purebreds a bad name, because they are doing it all wrong
It looks like my main point is being missed here, I don't want to say all purebred dogs are bad, they're not. Only the desire to want one is. The reason puppy mills exist in the first place is simple economics. Supply, demand, desires, wants, and simply to profit. People in a capitalistic society see dogs as something to own. A designed and marketed product. Dog shows based on perfecting these specific breeds flaunt this to impressionable people. If we as a culture just up and decided that these dogs are not something to be desired, and no dog should ever be purchased for money. We would see puppy mills vanish immediately. Now even if people are doing all the genetic testing to keep these dogs from having genetic problems. This is still feeding the problem that these dogs are to be desired over others making them more rare and VALUABLE. Creating even more demand for puppy mills to fill the gap. My only hope is that one day people will put their desires for purebreds aside for a greater cause. A non registered mix breed dog costs nothing at all to create and should be given away for free. It costs as much to fix your dog as it does to feed some puppies. So there is almost no cost to the person that would breed a dog. If everyone just saw a dog as a companion and not something that matches their furniture, all dogs would be much better off.
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  #35  
Old September 13th, 2011, 11:22 PM
Nigel pezington Nigel pezington is offline
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Originally Posted by Rgeurts View Post
And all of these disorders you have listed can be found in any mixed breed as well. My old boy is a mixed breed. He just finished a round of Chemo, has Colitis and Arthritis.
I'm glad you agree with some of my points, but It looks like my main point is being missed here. I don't want to say all purebred dogs are bad, they're not. Only the desire to want one is. The reason puppy mills exist in the first place is simple economics. Supply, demand, desires, wants, and simply to profit. People in a capitalistic society see dogs as something to own. A designed and marketed product. Dog shows based on perfecting these specific breeds flaunt this to impressionable people. If we as a culture just up and decided that these dogs are not something to be desired, and no dog should ever be purchased for money. We would see puppy mills vanish immediately. Now even if people are doing all the genetic testing to keep these dogs from having genetic problems. This is still feeding the problem that these dogs are to be desired over others making them more rare and VALUABLE. Creating even more demand for puppy mills to fill the gap. My only hope is that one day people will put their desires for purebreds aside for a greater cause. A non registered mix breed dog costs nothing at all to create and should be given away for free. It costs as much to fix your dog as it does to feed some puppies. So there is almost no cost to the person that would breed a dog. If everyone just saw a dog as a companion and not something that matches their furniture, all dogs would be much better off.

Do these reputable breeders give the dogs away for free? Is there enough of these breeders to undercut the prices of puppy mills? Would eliminating the demand for these dogs get rid of puppy mills? In reality when you purchase a purebred dog from a reputable breeder you are still supporting the market for puppy mills existence.
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  #36  
Old September 14th, 2011, 04:48 AM
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Loki Love Loki Love is offline
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Originally Posted by Nigel pezington View Post
Do these reputable breeders give the dogs away for free? Is there enough of these breeders to undercut the prices of puppy mills? Would eliminating the demand for these dogs get rid of puppy mills? In reality when you purchase a purebred dog from a reputable breeder you are still supporting the market for puppy mills existence.
Reputable breeders aren't doing anything wrong - they set the standard for how breeding SHOULD be done. If you take that away - what happens to standards? Why should reputable breeders give dogs away for free when they are the good guys? I don't know - that argument falls flat for me.

I also find it a bit insulting that you insinuate that those who purchase a purebred from a reputable breeder somehow links back to support for puppy mills - that couldn't be further from the truth and I fail to see your connection there.
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  #37  
Old September 14th, 2011, 01:03 PM
Nigel pezington Nigel pezington is offline
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Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
Reputable breeders aren't doing anything wrong - they set the standard for how breeding SHOULD be done. If you take that away - what happens to standards? Why should reputable breeders give dogs away for free when they are the good guys? I don't know - that argument falls flat for me.

It unfortunately has nothing to do with whether these breeders are good or bad people, it is the fact that a dog is being sold and marketed as a product. Even if you have the greatest intentions you need to look at the real world outcome. As long as people desire purebreds and it is acceptable to purchase them for money this problem will exist. As a consumer we do have an option to change this. My ego would love to have all these options of breeds to shop and pick from, but I would be willing to sacrifice this to stop puppy mills. Your reputable breeders cannot create enough puppies to saturate the market and give everyone a purebred dog. Unless they can do this puppy mills will never go away. Anything over 50 bucks for a puppy is profit, don't ignore that. The only standards a dog should have is whether it's healthy.


I also find it a bit insulting that you insinuate that those who purchase a purebred from a reputable breeder somehow links back to support for puppy mills - that couldn't be further from the truth and I fail to see your connection there.
I'm not trying to insult anyone for having purchased a purebred dog, only wake them to the real reason a puppy mill exists in the first place.
Why does a puppy mill exist I ask you, because the pets stores need them? No, because people want purebred dogs that are marketed to them by society? Yes. So if we now get rid of the pet store where is this consumer going to go. Well hopefully to a reputable breeder, but more likely to the place that was supplying Pet Land in the first place. So what is the root of the problem? peoples desires to shop for pets perhaps? If we change peoples minds and make them realize they do not need to spend thousands of dollars to get a designer dog maybe they wont. Until we as a pet loving culture decide that it is wrong to market dogs this way, Nothing will ever change. Explain to me how I am wrong here?
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  #38  
Old September 14th, 2011, 01:53 PM
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Rgeurts Rgeurts is offline
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Originally Posted by Nigel pezington View Post
I'm not trying to insult anyone for having purchased a purebred dog, only wake them to the real reason a puppy mill exists in the first place.
Why does a puppy mill exist I ask you, because the pets stores need them? No, because people want purebred dogs that are marketed to them by society? Yes. So if we now get rid of the pet store where is this consumer going to go. Well hopefully to a reputable breeder, but more likely to the place that was supplying Pet Land in the first place. So what is the root of the problem? peoples desires to shop for pets perhaps? If we change peoples minds and make them realize they do not need to spend thousands of dollars to get a designer dog maybe they wont. Until we as a pet loving culture decide that it is wrong to market dogs this way, Nothing will ever change. Explain to me how I am wrong here?
You're right, you're original point was missed, at least by me. I understand what you're saying now. And for the most part, I do agree. As long as there is a desire for purebreds (a responsible breeder will never be able to keep up with the demand. And even if they could, many of the homes that purchase from a puppy mill would not be considered suitable by a reputable breeder anyway). Breeders will never "go away". There will always be a demand, unfortunately. But it is an opportunity to educate the public and make then aware that there are breed specific rescues as well as many, many purebreds in shelters. My hope is that by Petland making this change, others will eventually follow. And if not, then hopefully municipalities will step up to the plate and enact legislation to stop live animals from being sold in pet stores. There are a few places that have already passed it. I know it won't solve the problem, but it will put a dent in it

I also think that to be able to breed an animal, you must have a license to do so, and that the requirements will be very strict in regards to health testing, vetting etc. But again, that's probably not ever going to happen. Until then, we will just have to take any small advances we can get, such as the one Petland is offering.
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"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole" - Ok... whoever said this has never had a sick or special needs baby. They ARE our whole life!

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  #39  
Old September 14th, 2011, 02:05 PM
Choochi Choochi is offline
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You're absolutely wrong.

Puppy Mills don't exist because of purebreds or the desire of people to own one. They exist because of uneducated and impulse driven consumers who want a dog and they want it now. They don't care where it comes from, and they know next to nothing about responsible breeding practices and think buying a puppy from the pet store or from the kijiji add or from the nice old lady down the street who breeds her little sweet shih tzu because she thinks he's pretty is perfectly acceptable.

Puppy Mills breed and sell plenty of designer mutts and there is quite the demand for them now. Just think of all the puggles and pooshis and poopoos and multipoos and what ever other ridiculous name you can come up with are out there. Look at the Kijiji ads and tell me if you think the purebred dogs outnumber the designer crosses? If it's not 50/50 I would say the crosses actually outnumber the purebreds.

It makes little difference if you're breeding mutts or purebreds, if you're doing it in order to make money, or simply just because, you're only adding to the problem. There are people who legitimately breed cross dogs for work and sport and they put just as much effort into this with health testing and any other relevant tests as any of the high quality pure bred breeders. That is a world of difference from breeding a mixed dog without any health tests and because the mix will have a cute name.
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  #40  
Old September 14th, 2011, 03:15 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Originally Posted by Choochi View Post
You're absolutely wrong.

Puppy Mills don't exist because of purebreds or the desire of people to own one. They exist because of uneducated and impulse driven consumers who want a dog and they want it now. They don't care where it comes from, and they know next to nothing about responsible breeding practices and think buying a puppy from the pet store or from the kijiji add or from the nice old lady down the street who breeds her little sweet shih tzu because she thinks he's pretty is perfectly acceptable.

Puppy Mills breed and sell plenty of designer mutts and there is quite the demand for them now. Just think of all the puggles and pooshis and poopoos and multipoos and what ever other ridiculous name you can come up with are out there. Look at the Kijiji ads and tell me if you think the purebred dogs outnumber the designer crosses? If it's not 50/50 I would say the crosses actually outnumber the purebreds.

It makes little difference if you're breeding mutts or purebreds, if you're doing it in order to make money, or simply just because, you're only adding to the problem. There are people who legitimately breed cross dogs for work and sport and they put just as much effort into this with health testing and any other relevant tests as any of the high quality pure bred breeders. That is a world of difference from breeding a mixed dog without any health tests and because the mix will have a cute name.
Extremely well said.
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  #41  
Old September 14th, 2011, 11:32 PM
Backwoodsgal Backwoodsgal is offline
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I think both Nigel pezington and Choochi have valid points. I think the underlying cause is a mix of the two.

And just to add another view to this news, the people who buy from Pet Stores may also buy their animals there just for the simple fact that the dog seems "legit." It's not just the breds of the animals, but the brand of the store itself that gets attached to the dog. After all, some people attach trust in certain stores and brands themselves. Some people shop at Bloomingdale's, others shop at Walmart. In reality, there isn't a true difference; however, some people take it to the extreme.

[I have never really understood the purebred and mutt distinctions. Meaning, I don't know why people get hyped up over certain breeds. To me, a dog is a wet tongue and a loyal friend in need of someone to love and care for them. The breed shouldn't make a difference. Plus, I tend to love mixed breeds more. They're so unique.]

But it does come back to the view of dogs (or cats) as status symbols and, in general, products, not companions/friends.

I don't believe the money grubbers will ever change. A business is a business. Some people do it morally and others (the ones who bring in the big money usually) always prefer quantity over quality. You can see that in any business type. Clothes, food, furniture, appliances, etc. Some even make products that "break" just after the warranty ends or after a few years so that you have to come back for more.

These people are smart. And they care about very little than their own pockets.

Furthermore, some people may get the only exposure they get to animals at Pet Stores. Our shelter here doesn't get that much exposure (I think they just foster out and bring the animals out once a month, but that's just a theory, and I had to hunt for that info). And backyard breeders. BYB are really all I've known for cats, and my current dogs are also BY bred. I'm working to keep that from happening again, now that I realize the problem is bigger than I thought.

I've looked at those puppies behind the glass. I also looked at the price. No way in hell I'd pay $500-600 for a puppy. And seeing that they come from puppy mills most often, that looks like a huge profit margin.

Digston, sorry for the layoff. I feel for anyone losing their job. There are no jobs here outside of medical or oil field. I'm working toward the medical and praying things work out. I would like to have health insurance before I'm 30. >> (I'd kill for $15-16 an hour.)

All in all, I think this news is good. There is always two sides to news, but I think the overall results will be positive.

Last edited by Backwoodsgal; September 15th, 2011 at 10:03 AM. Reason: Silly mistakes
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  #42  
Old September 15th, 2011, 09:29 AM
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Rgeurts Rgeurts is offline
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Originally Posted by Backwoodsgal View Post
I think both Nigel pezington and Choochi have valid points. I think the underlying cause is a mix of the two.

And just to add another view to this news, the people who buy from Pet Stores may also buy their animals there just for the simple fact that the dog seems "legit." It's not just the breds of the animals, but the brand of the store itself that gets attached to the dog. After all, some people attach trust in certain stores and brands themselves. Some people shop at Bloomingdale's, other's shop at Walmart. In reality, there isn't a true difference; however, some people take it to the extreme.

[I have really understood the purebred and mutt distinctions. Meaning, I don't know why people get hyped up over certain breeds. To me, a dog is a wet tongue and a loyal friend in need of someone to love and care for them. The breed shouldn't make a difference. Plus, I tend to love mixed breeds more. They're so unique.]

But it does come back to the view of dogs (or cats) as status symbols and, in general, products, not companions/friends.

I don't believe the money grubbers will ever change. A business is a business. Some people do it morally and others (the ones who bring in the big money usually) always prefer quantity over quality. You can see that in any business type. Clothes, food, furniture, appliances, etc. Some even make products that "break" just after the warranty ends or after a few years so that you have to come back for more.

These people are smart. And they care about very little than their own pockets.

Furthermore, some people may get the only exposure they get to animals at Pet Stores. Our shelter here doesn't get that much exposure (I think they just foster out and bring the animals out once a month, but that's just a theory, and I had to hunt for that info). And backyard breeders. BYB are really all I've known for cats, and my current dogs are also BY bred. I'm working to keep that from happening again, now that I realize the problem is bigger than I thought.

I've looked at those puppies behind the glass. I also looked at the price. No way in hell I'd pay $500-600 for a puppy. And seeing that they come from puppy mills most often, that looks like a huge profit margin.

Digston, sorry for the layoff. I feel for anyone losing their job. There are no jobs here outside of medical or oil field. I'm working toward the medical and praying things work out. I would like to have health insurance before I'm 30. >> (I'd kill for $15-16 an hour.)

All in all, I think this news is good. There is always two sides to news, but I think the overall results will be positive.
Good post, Backwoodsgal

I think you are right when it comes to branding/trust. It's a matter of educating people. Until I joined this sight, I thought much differently than I do now. And I think that's something people need to remember... they weren't born with this knowledge, they learned it. And with time, others will as well. Hopefully with Petland making this move, other large chains will follow (afterall, it is the large chains that always make the national news, not the small mom and pop shops)
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"Who can believe that there is no soul behind those luminous eyes!" ~ Theophile Gautier


"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole" - Ok... whoever said this has never had a sick or special needs baby. They ARE our whole life!

R.I.P. my sweet, handsome Thorin. You are missed dearly Dec. 25, 1999 - Mar. 4, 2012
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  #43  
Old September 15th, 2011, 09:54 AM
Digston Digston is offline
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I agree, that was a very good post. I thought I'd point out that even though it seems like Petland is making a killing on these dogs they really aren't. On average there is a loss on each puppy sale. Petland would make money if they didn't provide constant vet care, didn't provide their health guarantee, didn't pay me, and the list goes on. Take for instance a couple of older dogs that were surrendered to Petland (The elderly man was going into an old folks home and couldn't bring his dogs). Both dogs are 12 year old small mix breeds, siblings in fact. They both were suffering from extreme tooth decay and gum disease. I don't know about your SPCA/Animal rescue groups where you live, but here I can almost guarantee that given their age and the condition of their mouths these 2 dogs would have been euthanized. We gave them the vet care they needed. If you've ever looked into the cost of, or had a dental done on your animals you'll know its not exactly cheap, especially when there is need for a lot of extractions. With the cost of their medical care and the price they will be rehomed at Petland is losing a ton of money..... and to give these 2 dogs a 2nd chance at happiness its worth it

Look past all the bad and you'll see some good.
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