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Old August 13th, 2011, 10:37 AM
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How long does a reaction to Heartguard normally take?

Nookie has had diarrhea on and off since Wed. But last night it started again, and was full blown diarrhea. He had me up until 2:30 this morning. Finally got to sleep at about 3, then he woke me up at 3:30 and had to go again. Went back to sleep around 4 then woke up shortly before 7 to him throwing up. Hubby and I got up and he had thrown up in 2 spots and had diarrhea in 3. I don't know how I didn't hear any of it. I'm usually a very light sleeper. My poor little boy

So we got up, hubby cleaned the mess (he's an ). Nookie ran down stairs, hubby took him out and he had diarrhea again. Then he started salivating a lot, so hubby took him out and he threw up 2 more times. Then came back in, went on the deck and threw up again. Of course we're going to the vet, but they can't see him until 2:30. He is "acting" ok, other than the tummy issues. In fact, MIL has him and Thorin out for a walk and he's quite perky. Obviously, something is very wrong though. He was treated with HeartGuard Tuesday afternoon. Would a bad reaction to it start that far after taking it and last that long? That's the only thing we can think of
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Old August 13th, 2011, 10:51 AM
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Was this the first time he's had HG?
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Old August 13th, 2011, 11:10 AM
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Was this the first time he's had HG?
It was, Choochi. He has had Panacur before, but never HeartGuard. He's extremely sensitive to many things, so we're thinking that may be the problem, but would it take that long to have such a negative effect? Well, the diarrhea actually started the day after, but has just been on and off until last night
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Old August 13th, 2011, 11:20 AM
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Maybe you should be having an Ivermectin Sensisitivity test done , Robyn, that way you'd know for sure if the Heart Gard caused it? Was that the very first time he'd had it?
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Old August 13th, 2011, 11:44 AM
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Maybe you should be having an Ivermectin Sensisitivity test done , Robyn, that way you'd know for sure if the Heart Gard caused it? Was that the very first time he'd had it?
It was GF. He has had Panacur with no negative effects, but that's the only dewormer up to this point.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 12:29 PM
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Rguerts I would be willing to bet it was a reaction but I am glad he is getting checked out. I hope things go well and you are able to get some sleep tonight! Keep us posted on Nookie Monster please!
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Old August 13th, 2011, 12:46 PM
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Rguerts I would be willing to bet it was a reaction but I am glad he is getting checked out. I hope things go well and you are able to get some sleep tonight! Keep us posted on Nookie Monster please!
Thank you, Winston
He won't eat now, so something is definitely wrong. 2:30 is taking forever to get here
I'm such a freak when it comes to the babies, I get SO stressed out lol. I gave him some Sulcrate almost an hour ago. I'm going to see if I can get him to eat a little hamburger and rice in about another 20 minutes so he can have his meds. If not, I'll have to push them down him.
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Old August 13th, 2011, 01:20 PM
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Does he like cheese? I find that always works but then again Winston lets me put my whole hand in his mouth!! he is such a goofball.

I'll be thinking of you guys today!
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Old August 13th, 2011, 02:04 PM
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I'm glad you've got an appt, Robyn. That doesn't sound like a med reaction to me... Could he have snarfed down some mushrooms somewhere? Ridge gets like that when she eats a bad mushroom
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Old August 13th, 2011, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post
I'm glad you've got an appt, Robyn. That doesn't sound like a med reaction to me... Could he have snarfed down some mushrooms somewhere? Ridge gets like that when she eats a bad mushroom
We've been pretty diligent in watching him when he goes out and checking for mushrooms, which we haven't had in our backyard yet, despite all the rain. MIL babysat him last night while Shaun and I had a date, but she said he didn't get into anything
It's definitely a possibility though. They were both snoozin' when we got home. I'm a little worried that because of all the weight loss and him acting like he's starving again, he may have eaten another sock or something and has a blockage. One thing, I don't know if this would cause a blockage, but he's lost most of his coat over the past 3 - 4 weeks, and he's always licking himself and swallowing the hair. I've pulled countless wads of hair off his tongue the past couple of weeks. I brush and brush him, but everyday he has more coming out
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Old August 14th, 2011, 06:34 AM
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How is Nookie today? What did the vet think?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 08:54 AM
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Good morning Winston! Nookie Monster is doing much better today. He's back to being his usual "Marley" self lol. She said it could be a few different things such as a high parasite load, but we couldn't get enough of a sample for a good float, or it could be a reaction to the HG or the new herbs that Dr. Marsden has him on, but she thinks it's more likely he has a partial blockage. She said there is a part of his intestine that feels very thick. She didn't feel the typical pockets of gas that she said builds up behind a complete blockage, so that's good, for now. We have to watch him over the next few days. If he quits eating or drinking, then we have to take him back right away. She said her husband is on call, so if we have any problems at all, to call him and be "forceful" about speaking to her lol. She's hoping that he will eventually pass whatever it is, like he normally does. We haven't been as diligent as we used to be because he hasn't had an issue with the pica in months. I guess we're just going to have to wait and see what (hopefully) comes out
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Old August 14th, 2011, 09:32 AM
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I hope whatever it is, passes soon. That Nookie! Always worryin' his Mom so!
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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:07 AM
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Hazel, you have no idea
He's a great baby, and we couldn't love him more than we do... but he's such a bad dog (and I say this affectionately!)!! I swear, he's Marley incarnate

Though I'm wondering now if it isn't a worm load. Dr. Marsden emailed me back this morning and said it's highly unusual for a dog Nookies age, and as large as he is, to have a high enough worm load that it would make him ill, but we all know Nookie is, umm... "unique" , so it's possible. I just took him out after breakfast and he still has very mucousy diarrhea, with what looks like stringy spaghetti stuff in it. I'm thinking it's dead worms

But he's extremely happy and very playful today
So he's feeling much better!
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R.I.P. my sweet, handsome Thorin. You are missed dearly Dec. 25, 1999 - Mar. 4, 2012
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Old August 14th, 2011, 11:46 AM
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I have read a couple of posts from other forums. I'm thinking it might be the HG. There is a dobie forum where one of the members dogs had the same exact symptoms with the same time frame as Nookie, 2-4 days after. For the dobie, it was 2 months in a row. I think I will have them test him for sensitivity to Ivermectin, as GF said, before I allow him to have it again. There are a few posts of dogs having seizures after HG and one that died
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Old August 14th, 2011, 12:30 PM
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Sure couldn't hurt--although I'd expect a reaction to ivermectin to be almost immediate. The spaghetti stuff does sound like round worms. Which reminds me--we're coming up on our summer worming round soon. Gotta check my calendar and pick a day.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 01:00 PM
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Sure couldn't hurt--although I'd expect a reaction to ivermectin to be almost immediate. The spaghetti stuff does sound like round worms. Which reminds me--we're coming up on our summer worming round soon. Gotta check my calendar and pick a day.
That's what I thought too, roundworms. But when they did the float, they said it was hookworms and whipworms? I wonder if he might have roundworms that they just didn't see, as well? Either way... gross!!

As for the Ivermectin, everything I read said it's usually wihtin hours. But then I read the post on the dobie forum. The symptoms and timeframe are almsot identical to Nookies
And the guy did it 2 months in a row, both times, the same thing.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 01:20 PM
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That's so scary! When you get delayed reactions like that, just out of the blue, it's not easy to trace it back to anything in particular! Good thing they noticed the timing with the Ivermectin. How long did it take the dobie to get over the reaction each time?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 01:58 PM
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It didn't say how long the symptoms lasted, just days and happened 2-4 days after each HG dose. It could have totally been a coincidence, but just seems odd because what happened to Nookie was almost identical to the dobie. As for Nookie, it could be the HG, or it could be he ate something he shouldn't have (again)... or worm load. Who knows
Though the guy on the dobie forum didn't say it was specifically the Ivermectin, just the HG in general. I'm just assuming because some dogs have a real intolerence for it and a lot of people on other forums have had some real issues with HG and HG Plus, and the fact that Nookie has reactions to SO many things. It could have been one of the other ingredients, or again, just coincidence. From what I've read, most vets now use Interceptor instead. I know Dr. Stelfox doesn't use HG at her clinic so she couldn't really say whether it was or wasn't a reaction. She said she would have to research it then let me know. But that was before she felt his tummy. She's still pretty sure he has at least a partial blockage again.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 02:13 PM
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With Nookie the answer could be "all of the above". *sigh* He so reminds me of our Evan. Such a trial, but such a joy! I sure do miss him.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 05:09 PM
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With Nookie the answer could be "all of the above". *sigh* He so reminds me of our Evan. Such a trial, but such a joy! I sure do miss him.
LoL yes, the answer probably is "all of the above"
When did you lose Evan, and how old was he? Nookie is a trial as well, but we couldn't love him more and wouldn't give up on him for anything
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Old August 14th, 2011, 06:21 PM
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We lost him in October of '91, exactly 3 years to the day that we had picked him up as a pup.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 06:43 PM
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How sad
Such a short little life. But I'm sure the time he did have was wonderful. You and you're hubby are amazing

What issues did he have?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 07:14 PM
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At 9 weeks he already had pain from severe elbow dysplasia; by 6 months he'd had eye surgery for a congenital defect and had both elbows done to clean up damage from the dysplasia; he developed inflammatory bowel disease at age 1 and although we finally got that under control and weaned him off the pred, he had to eat that crappy hypo-allergenic hydrolyzed protein food the rest of his life ; he had pica, too--used to strip and eat bark off the locust tree. He was constantly trying to snarf up garbage off the street when we'd go for walks--he was always famished since we couldn't keep weight on him because of the IBD. And of course everything that he successfully managed to snarf up made his IBD flare up. He finally died of either bloat or a blockage of some sort...he was too weak by then to have survived the surgery to fix it, so we made the hard decision... Dang, he was sweet, though--stray cats would come up to Evan on our walks and do figure 8s around his front legs and rub their heads on his chest. Even they knew he wouldn't hurt a fly....
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Old August 14th, 2011, 08:03 PM
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Robyn, I think the main breeds that have Ivermectin sensitivity are the Collies/shelties, but there are others of course, and when I Googled it I saw there is also multi-drug sensitivity. Heart Gard can kill a sheltie if it is sensitive to Ivermectin, someone a friend told me about put her sheltie in for a routine procedure and the vet gave it Heart Gard and it died. As big a shock for the vet probably as the owner. Rather than do expensive (at the time) DNA tests, I simply stopped using Heart Gard.

I hope Nookie hasn't swallowed anything he shouldn't.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/announcements/ivermectin/
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Old August 15th, 2011, 10:34 AM
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Rguerts, you need to put Nookie on HG? I asked the vets I checked here in the Hat and they told me it's not a real concern here. Bayley hasn't been on it since she finished her last dose after we moved from Ontario where it's pretty much standard. I liked it partially cause she was getting wormed regularly, something I need to do now...ugh!!

Hope he's feeling better fast!!
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Old August 15th, 2011, 01:22 PM
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I would get the mdr1 test done for ivermectin sensitivity. My old girl was a half-mutant, and very sensitive. A full mutant, this stuff can be deadly.

Here's an example of such a reaction:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ce-please.html
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Old August 15th, 2011, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post
At 9 weeks he already had pain from severe elbow dysplasia; by 6 months he'd had eye surgery for a congenital defect and had both elbows done to clean up damage from the dysplasia; he developed inflammatory bowel disease at age 1 and although we finally got that under control and weaned him off the pred, he had to eat that crappy hypo-allergenic hydrolyzed protein food the rest of his life ; he had pica, too--used to strip and eat bark off the locust tree. He was constantly trying to snarf up garbage off the street when we'd go for walks--he was always famished since we couldn't keep weight on him because of the IBD. And of course everything that he successfully managed to snarf up made his IBD flare up. He finally died of either bloat or a blockage of some sort...he was too weak by then to have survived the surgery to fix it, so we made the hard decision... Dang, he was sweet, though--stray cats would come up to Evan on our walks and do figure 8s around his front legs and rub their heads on his chest. Even they knew he wouldn't hurt a fly....
OMGoodness... I'm so sorry, Hazel. That must have been horrible. I see what you mean when you say Nookie reminds you of Evan. There are a lot of similarities there
I think Nookie is strong enough, now, to survive a surgery. It's the high probability of the Meningoencephalitis returning that would most likely kill him. There's no way he could withstand the Prednisone, Azathioprine and other drugs he would need. We came within a couple hours of losing him. I won't put him through that again. Nookie is a gentle little soul as well. He goes to daycare and can't be in with the big dogs in case he has a seizure, they may attack him. So he goes in the small dog pen. They call him "Nanook: King of the small dogs" lol. He is so gentle with them

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldfields View Post
Robyn, I think the main breeds that have Ivermectin sensitivity are the Collies/shelties, but there are others of course, and when I Googled it I saw there is also multi-drug sensitivity. Heart Gard can kill a sheltie if it is sensitive to Ivermectin, someone a friend told me about put her sheltie in for a routine procedure and the vet gave it Heart Gard and it died. As big a shock for the vet probably as the owner. Rather than do expensive (at the time) DNA tests, I simply stopped using Heart Gard.

I hope Nookie hasn't swallowed anything he shouldn't.

http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/announcements/ivermectin/
Thank you GF. I think I will have him tested just to ease my mind. Maxalisa posted that link. I did some reading and it seems those aren't the only susceptible breeds. Apparently white GSD's are as well. I'd rather spend the money and know... though I doubt that's what it is because he has had a couple of the other drugs on that list and has been ok. I really hope he hasn;t swallowed something he shouldn't have, either. But it's Nookie... so who knows

Quote:
Originally Posted by MaxaLisa View Post
I would get the mdr1 test done for ivermectin sensitivity. My old girl was a half-mutant, and very sensitive. A full mutant, this stuff can be deadly.

Here's an example of such a reaction:
http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...ce-please.html
Thanks for that link, MaxaLisa! That was very interesting to read. Also what I found interesting are that there are acute and sub acute reactions. The acute within hours, and the sub acute happening 48-96 hours after treatment/exposure, which would be Nookie, if that is what has happened. But I doubt it's that. I read through the list of known drugs and Nookie has been on a few of them... Acevet, Cyclosporine (he is on the Cyclo drops daily and has been for a few months now)and Optimmune (the 2 latter are for his Dry Eye). I'm hoping he just may be having a heavy worm load and the dying is causing him a bit of upset. I just spoke with Dr. Marsdens clinic, and also our western vet, Dr. Stelfox. He has "spit up" a couple of times today (first time in almost a month, since he's been on the new food). They are going to put him on Metronidazole for a couple of days to try and get his tummy back to a better state. They did say it's possible that he is having a reaction to the HG, so it's still just wait and watch at this point. Hopefully if he did eat another sock, or something similar, it will pass on it's own. Dr. Stelfox said today that the thickness she felt in his intestines could be a ball of worms and if that's the case, they should pass soon, though she said that usually happens within the first 24 hours after treatment, but also that there is nothing "normal" about our Nookie Monster, so she wouldn't be surprised
I just hope this all passes soon and he can get back to his full monster self
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"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole" - Ok... whoever said this has never had a sick or special needs baby. They ARE our whole life!

R.I.P. my sweet, handsome Thorin. You are missed dearly Dec. 25, 1999 - Mar. 4, 2012
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  #29  
Old August 15th, 2011, 04:25 PM
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Rgeurts Rgeurts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pattymac View Post
Rguerts, you need to put Nookie on HG? I asked the vets I checked here in the Hat and they told me it's not a real concern here. Bayley hasn't been on it since she finished her last dose after we moved from Ontario where it's pretty much standard. I liked it partially cause she was getting wormed regularly, something I need to do now...ugh!!

Hope he's feeling better fast!!
Hi pattymac

They put him on it for the hookworms and whipworms. Whipworms aren't found here so he most likely got them from daycare. The daycare he goes to works with a lot the rescues and rescue dogs.
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"Obey my dog!" - Mugatu

"Who can believe that there is no soul behind those luminous eyes!" ~ Theophile Gautier


"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole" - Ok... whoever said this has never had a sick or special needs baby. They ARE our whole life!

R.I.P. my sweet, handsome Thorin. You are missed dearly Dec. 25, 1999 - Mar. 4, 2012
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  #30  
Old August 19th, 2011, 10:13 AM
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Just thought I would give a bit of an update. Nookie never did pass anything, so I have no idea what the thick part of his intestine was, I haven't seen anymore worms come out, so no worm ball either
and he seems to be feeling ALOT better

His poos are still a bit soft on and off, but mostly back to normal! I'd think if he did have even a partial blockage, he would have diarrhea, not formed stools? But I could be wrong! I'm just glad he's feeling better and back to his happy little self
__________________
"Obey my dog!" - Mugatu

"Who can believe that there is no soul behind those luminous eyes!" ~ Theophile Gautier


"Dogs are not our whole life, but they make our lives whole" - Ok... whoever said this has never had a sick or special needs baby. They ARE our whole life!

R.I.P. my sweet, handsome Thorin. You are missed dearly Dec. 25, 1999 - Mar. 4, 2012
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