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  #31  
Old May 10th, 2011, 11:13 PM
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Goldfields Goldfields is offline
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Originally Posted by SamIam View Post
I will definitely ask my vet if there are any concerns for the puppies' future that wouldn't be outwardly obvious as a failure to thrive, but let me know if yours have any experience to share, too. The antibiotics she was on from day 7-35 (Baytril tablets) have been clinically tested safe during pregnancy, so I'm not expecting any issues due to that either.
I find it an interesting idea, SIA, I think any breeder would want to know the answer to that. Sounds good to me so far though. I have one vet calling in tomorrow , and will see the other as I leave town after shopping on Friday. In the meantime, doing a happy dance for you, your little Chi' girl and her pups. With Shelties so difficult to breed I can delight in a good whelping like yours.
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  #32  
Old May 10th, 2011, 11:29 PM
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Congrats I guess, but for those who are asking about the pyo, from my experience talking with reputable breeders & experienced veterinarians, yes, they would have indeed spayed the dog (or cat) regardless of the pregnancy.. a pyo is a pyo is a pyo. I'm not bashing OP, simply here to hopefully give some insight on the medical aspect. I also find it VERY hard to believe that ANY animal could carry to full term with a full blown pyometra.. I have /NEVER/ heard of that, ever. ever. ever. ever. I will ask my friends @ the clinic next time I get a chance and see if they have ever heard of it, but I have seen pregnant animals w/ pyos before and every single one of them was on the verge of death and we had to do emergency spays and most of the animals were transferred to vet offices to be hospitalized because they nearly became septic.

I actually have several pictures of the aftermath of a pregnant animal with a pyo, but I've already talked to the mods and they said no posting of surgery pics without the OP of a thread giving explicit consent But yeah, congrats to the pups for making it through.

Take care, wishing you them the best
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  #33  
Old May 11th, 2011, 12:35 AM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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Well Kathryn, I am not the sort of breeder who waits until my dogs are on the verge of death before taking them to the vet.
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  #34  
Old May 11th, 2011, 04:21 AM
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Melinda Melinda is offline
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so how are puppies and mamma this morning? do you still register births by same letter names? with dam and sire in there? ok ok, it was many moons ago that we bred poms, but I do remember the registering of them, we had to do a print of their little noses!!
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  #35  
Old May 11th, 2011, 08:01 AM
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so how are puppies and mamma this morning? do you still register births by same letter names? with dam and sire in there? ok ok, it was many moons ago that we bred poms, but I do remember the registering of them, we had to do a print of their little noses!!
Oh, that's so cute, Melinda. I didn't think that the pattern is discernible so early. ...OTOH - when are the registration papers done - right after birth or after a few weeks?
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  #36  
Old May 11th, 2011, 08:09 AM
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Oh, that's so cute, Melinda. I didn't think that the pattern is discernible so early. ...OTOH - when are the registration papers done - right after birth or after a few weeks?
remember, I'm going back 40 yrs here, the nose prints were done at 3 weeks, it was a small tube of black "goop" you'd put a dab on the nose and smoosh it around, hold the pups head and "print" it on a white form (special square where you do it) it was supposedly like a finger print, no two were alike.
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  #37  
Old May 11th, 2011, 08:12 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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I have no background here at all but am also very intersted. My thought/question: Would not the risk of performing an invasive surgery like spay on a small dog with blood engorged innards (guessing, due to pregnancy, my experience with cats here) and serious infection also be a significant threat to her life and that of the puppies? Take yourself, your dog, your cat in for any kind of surgery and your doctor will send you home to get over the infection first, if possible. SAmIam, you mentionned playing the "odds" in your OP. Can you tell us what the odds are each way?

P.S. Are your wee munchkins the bobblehead type? That/s not what my neighbour's is, and he must weigh nearly 15 lbs. I must google those other types of Chi.
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  #38  
Old May 11th, 2011, 08:47 AM
Mirela Mirela is offline
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Originally Posted by Longblades View Post
[...]

P.S. Are your wee munchkins the bobblehead type? [...].
This is a very important question and has to be answered with more pics.
SIA - You can't just post one set of puppy pics and then go away
They grow up fast, we need updates!
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  #39  
Old May 11th, 2011, 08:49 AM
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they change daily, so yes, I think a new set of pics are in order
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  #40  
Old May 11th, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Longblades View Post
I have no background here at all but am also very intersted. My thought/question: Would not the risk of performing an invasive surgery like spay on a small dog with blood engorged innards (guessing, due to pregnancy, my experience with cats here) and serious infection also be a significant threat to her life and that of the puppies? Take yourself, your dog, your cat in for any kind of surgery and your doctor will send you home to get over the infection first, if possible. SAmIam, you mentionned playing the "odds" in your OP. Can you tell us what the odds are each way?

P.S. Are your wee munchkins the bobblehead type? That/s not what my neighbour's is, and he must weigh nearly 15 lbs. I must google those other types of Chi.
I don't think the suggestion she be spayed included trying to save that litter, Longblades, it couldn't, too early for that don't you think? You are right about the infection being a risk after surgery too, it's why my vet for instance will not pull a cracked carnassial molar until an abcess caused by it is cured with antibiotics first. You could name a lot of examples.

Melinda, that's very interesting about the nose prints. I don't recall that ever being done here. If I'm talking to a Judge friend I must ask her, she was breeding dogs probably well before I ever did. With the poms was there much of a size difference in litters? I always looked at them at shows and wondered how on earth you'd groom the little fuzz balls. They have such a dense coat.
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  #41  
Old May 11th, 2011, 12:03 PM
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Off to the vet for newborns check-ups today and a few errands as well. New pics and answers will have to wait until later this evening, or for those of you in Australia, til morning.
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  #42  
Old May 11th, 2011, 10:55 PM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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Well, first things first, as I know you're all dying of curiosity to know what puppies look like at one and two days of age compared to newborn.
Mostly they look like this:
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You need good photography skills to see them from this angle as they're rater squirmy:
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Someone asked me my picks. Puppy #2 (female with white stripe) was the most eye-catching from the moment I laid eyes on that gorgeous face. Puppy #4 (dark-face female) is going to offer strong competition! Puppy #3 (darker male) will be tiniest with a nice face. Puppy #1 (lighter male) will still be a striking dog, but will mature larger and with a longer nose, and he will have longer more upright ears. When I say "picks" I am referring to current looks ONLY. In the end, I promise you each one of these puppies will be my favourite one for a different reason: the quietest, snuggliest, most adventurous, bravest, the one that has a certain expression or behaviour that is ever so wonderfully a reminder of what mom or dad was like at that age, and so on and so forth.

No none of them is bobble-headed and fortunately I have never had such a puppy born here!

Our vet did a check-up and mom and the puppies are officially confirmed perfectly healthy. I asked about the effects the pyometra or antibiotics on the puppies. Pyometra, had it affected them at all, would have caused an abortion, and it is of no concern whatsoever given that the puppies even exist. If the antibiotics had an affect on the puppies, it would have caused serious blood disorders that would lead to fading puppy syndrome/ failure to thrive. Baytril is considered safe during pregnancy, and at two days they are so far developing perfectly normally and are healthy. We are not planning to do bloodwork to verify the obvious, and my vet assured me that there are no possible affects from either the infection or the drug that could hide and then become active any time after the neonatal phase.

To ID puppies for registration you have to microchip them. CKC microchips are readable throughout Canada and Europe - the ones *I* would rather put in my puppies are readable throughout Canada and the USA.

Last edited by SamIam; May 11th, 2011 at 10:59 PM. Reason: Pics weren't showing up!
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  #43  
Old May 11th, 2011, 11:21 PM
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. I could be totally wrong but surely if it effected the pups she may have aborted them, or now we'd see fading puppy syndrome?
How about that, I wasn't totally wrong. And I imagine my own vets will say the same.
Lovely photo of your litter SIA. If you are like me you won't really enjoy parting with any of your 4 favorites when the time comes. It will be interesting to see how they go conformation wise later and whether that changes your choice of the pick pup, or have you already approved little Miss #2 in the respect?
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  #44  
Old May 11th, 2011, 11:28 PM
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how absolutely adorable
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  #45  
Old May 11th, 2011, 11:55 PM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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Originally Posted by Longblades View Post
I have no background here at all but am also very intersted. My thought/question: Would not the risk of performing an invasive surgery like spay on a small dog with blood engorged innards (guessing, due to pregnancy, my experience with cats here) and serious infection also be a significant threat to her life and that of the puppies? Take yourself, your dog, your cat in for any kind of surgery and your doctor will send you home to get over the infection first, if possible. SAmIam, you mentionned playing the "odds" in your OP. Can you tell us what the odds are each way?
If pyometra is advanced to the point where the uterus is expanded near rupture (think appendicitis!) immediate spay is less risky than waiting. I found a few references publishing odds of antibiotics being successful as 2-40%. That's a pretty broad range, but differences like that are common when you read the results of scientific research and statistics! We started the antibiotics and booked in for a tentative spay 2 and 3 days later, as it was a significant possibility.
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  #46  
Old May 12th, 2011, 03:41 AM
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oh my goodness, they are gorgeous, look at those ears *L* and the white tipped tail....my heart belongs to pup #4 with the dark "stripe" down the back.....
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  #47  
Old May 12th, 2011, 08:06 AM
Mirela Mirela is offline
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I love their pink feet. I'm curious to see puppy # 2 as she matures - that "mask" is so cute.
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  #48  
Old May 12th, 2011, 08:47 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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No none of them is bobble-headed and fortunately I have never had such a puppy born here!
Oooh, sorry, I hope that question wasn't an insult.

I did google the types of Chi. and I'm not coming up with good images. Can you provide a link? I did an image search for bobblehead Chis. and of course got lots of those ceramic and fake things one puts in the back window of a car. LOL No help at all.

Gosh, I might have to change my mind about small dogs not being "my thing." They are so, so cute. Think they could cross country ski through two feet of snow with me?
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  #49  
Old May 12th, 2011, 08:53 AM
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Oooh, sorry, I hope that question wasn't an insult.

I did google the types of Chi. and I'm not coming up with good images. Can you provide a link? I did an image search for bobblehead Chis. and of course got lots of those ceramic and fake things one puts in the back window of a car. LOL No help at all.

Gosh, I might have to change my mind about small dogs not being "my thing." They are so, so cute. Think they could cross country ski through two feet of snow with me?
they would fit quite snuggly in your mittens!
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  #50  
Old May 12th, 2011, 11:52 AM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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Oooh, sorry, I hope that question wasn't an insult.

I did google the types of Chi. and I'm not coming up with good images. Can you provide a link? I did an image search for bobblehead Chis. and of course got lots of those ceramic and fake things one puts in the back window of a car. LOL No help at all.

Gosh, I might have to change my mind about small dogs not being "my thing." They are so, so cute. Think they could cross country ski through two feet of snow with me?
The search term "teacup" will get you a few. The smallest chis tend towards exaggerated shape, size-related nervousness (super-high metabolism), size-related thyroid problems, and so on. The shape I could never get used to because for me it is associated with poor health. I would rather have a 15-pound pup to my name, happy, healthy, friendly and long-lived, than the other extreme. Here is a girl I would call "bobble-head" that I do not expect to live more than 1-2 years. http://www.puppiessale.org/Beautiful...p3333_DCL.aspx

The new puppies can travel in a fanny pack; my older ones in a chest or backpack. I don't know what temperatures you consider suitable for skiing, so you may have to tolerate some spanish cursing and threats of running away to Mexico. Longhairs can be very cold-tolerant and enjoy playing in the snow, shorthairs too but not to the same extent, but you still have to be careful with their ears and toes, particularly on a windy day.
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  #51  
Old May 12th, 2011, 12:20 PM
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They are all absolutely adorable. Love those little pink noses.

It's so exciting to watch how they change over the first weeks of life so keep those pictures coming.

If I remember correctly, I think you said mom and dad are both long coats. Does that mean all the puppies will be long coats or can it vary? How long before their final coats come in? I thought I read somewhere on the net that it can take up to two years but that sounds like a long time.
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  #52  
Old May 12th, 2011, 03:28 PM
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Goldfields I am sticking with #2 for now. She is a jaw-dropper.

Erykah, thanks. You know they would fit right up those nostrils on that horse if he sniffed them?

Melinda, the eating pic is out of order, they are pup #2, #1, #4, #3. I think...

Mirela, those black masks will probably fall off except #4, so enjoy them while you still can!

Mikischo, dad is short-haired. There are so many things to look at when choosing a male to sire a litter that although I would have loved longhair, that was a point I was willing to sacrifice. The first coat will be best at 2-4 months age, the second coat comes at 6-12, and the final coat with more fullness and more length at 18-24. Spayed/neutered dogs tend to have better coats as well, so if that is done when the dog is older than 2, there will be another improvement at that time. When they are first born, longhairs have subtle differences. These are a day-old long- and short-haired pup from a previous mixed-coat litter of mine.
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  #53  
Old May 13th, 2011, 10:39 PM
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Well today the kids & I went out to do some gardening, but the skies were too perfect: hot sun, no wind, too rare a moment to pass up, so out come the pups and the camera for a little fun first.

One is with a daffodil, which until this year would be my first big showy flowers of the season. Two is with elephant ears that I just put in last summer.
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Three is by some irises, and I have no idea what those little white flowers are with Four. Could be a weed, which would be fitting as she is growing like one!
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  #54  
Old May 14th, 2011, 08:47 AM
Mirela Mirela is offline
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Awww, their first sniff at the great outdoors! Lovely!
And yeah, you did warn that the cute masks will fade but...really...so quick...
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  #55  
Old May 14th, 2011, 10:06 PM
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I have heard that blind dogs can navigate without touching or memory and have never seen how amazing that can be until today. Little Miss Four found herself at mom's back and she was hungry. Staying 1-2 inches away from mom, no closer no farther, she "ran" at top speed down mom's back and tail and around coming straight at her belly head on! Very smart baby girl!

It was too hot for the sunroom today, so they spent the afternoon outside in the shade in their box with mom beside on the cool grass inbetween their meals and me in the dirt planting vegetables. Yes finally they are actually sleeping a bit and not spending 95% of their time eating anymore. The masks are still there, it was just the bright sun. Four should keep hers forever, as she doesn't have the telltale cream cheeks.
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  #56  
Old May 15th, 2011, 01:05 AM
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OK, Way too darn cute.
My handler for miss Tibby's friend has a sweet litter of Chi's too ( much older.. well they're 7 weeks now) I saw them this past friday when the handler stopped by with them in her car. It was the first time I have ever seen a Chi as a pup. I look forward to more pics of them as they grow. I will be watching this thread, just giving fair warning
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  #57  
Old May 15th, 2011, 11:11 AM
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This really makes me want another Chi', Erykah. Mine was a long coat but I've actually always preferred smooths. Wouldn't want to breed them, I'll leave that to braver souls than I, but as a pet they are fantastic. Wouldn't your TM's also be super cute fluff balls as puppies?
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  #58  
Old May 15th, 2011, 07:41 PM
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Awe, puppies enjoying their first introduction to the great outdoors. Absolutely beautiful. Talk about cuteness overload.

I can already see subtle little changes from the last pictures. They look so tiny when comparing them to your fingers. Can their birth weights be a good indicator of what size they will be as adults?
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  #59  
Old May 15th, 2011, 10:13 PM
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No. Not at birth and not at 8 weeks either. Litter size and individual mother are stronger influences in the beginning than potential. And each pup seems to have their own growth spurts and they stop growing at 5-18 months age.

Every winter I forget what happens when that sun comes back to Canada from Australia. In the garden on my knees all day, I'm as pink as those Elephant Ears flowers. Ouch my arms, ouch the bottom of my feet. Will I ever learn?

Here they are. Posed in order.
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  #60  
Old May 16th, 2011, 05:59 AM
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awwwww I'm so in love with the last one on the right....is that number 4??? they sure seem to be growing
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