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Old May 6th, 2011, 12:08 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Natural Dog Training

Has anybody read anything about this method or use it themselves? I think Kevin Behan is the main person for this method and I found another trainer, Lee Charles Kelly who uses the method.

It sounds pretty interesting and is supposed to work by engaging the dog's natural drives, mostly through play. There are a few books that I think I'm going to look for. I think the website is www.naturaldogtraining.com
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Old May 6th, 2011, 01:14 PM
GalaxiesKuklos GalaxiesKuklos is offline
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Originally Posted by pattymac View Post
Has anybody read anything about this method or use it themselves? I think Kevin Behan is the main person for this method and I found another trainer, Lee Charles Kelly who uses the method.

It sounds pretty interesting and is supposed to work by engaging the dog's natural drives, mostly through play. There are a few books that I think I'm going to look for. I think the website is www.naturaldogtraining.com
The explanation is quackery, bogus, or as the guy on Big Bang Theory says "hokum" Anyone who invokes 'energy' to explain things is really explaining nothing. Behan likes to come off as a thinker and yet in this thread
http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/110899.aspx
it's clear that he can't answer basic questions and lacks the scientific understanding to 1) attack modern theory and 2) create a credible alternative.

Whether he knows it or not, he is a punishment/reward trainer. Lee Charles Kelly is a follower - some say publicist - of Behan and dedicates his blog to promoting this pseudo-scientific idea.

One of the most troubling aspect is the claim that dogs DON'T and CAN'T think and act out of his magical energy/attraction.

Last edited by GalaxiesKuklos; May 6th, 2011 at 02:25 PM.
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Old May 6th, 2011, 02:21 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Thanks for the enlightening!! I always wonder if someone posts a blog and I have a hard time either reading through the whole thing or understanding it!!

Hmm makes sense why another 'PYSCHOlogical trainer is quoting him! Ok, I'll stick to my common sense way of doing things with my dog!!
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Old May 18th, 2011, 11:28 AM
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MyBirdIsEvil MyBirdIsEvil is offline
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Originally Posted by Addam View Post
Natural training starts from the beginning.But if you got your Dog from adult age then do you need a trainer.From the beginning if owner or trainer gives him training then he follows the instructions and acts better than other dogs.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. You can use the same training methods on an older dog that you did not raise, as with a puppy. The only time you NEED a trainer is when issues pop up that you don't have the knowledge to deal with. Even if the dog has ingrained issues from the previous owner the new owner can break those habits by using the reward system and consistency.
When older dogs come into a new home they're starting fresh. If the new owner is consistent from the beginning then training generally goes the same as with a puppy, and often faster because an older dog more patient and able to catch on quicker than a dog that is still developing mentally.
I've trained both puppies and older dogs, older dogs which had already been taught bad behaviors or exhbited aggression (I currently have one I inherited that is 13 or so). Both have been able to learn my boundaries and requests. On one hand it may be better to prevent bad behavior before it starts, but on the other hand puppies go through stages where they want to challenge the owner and see what they can get away with , plus they don't start out with a long attention span. Not to mention I've noticed puppies can have a keen ability to pick up on what type of manipulation will work on the person who raised them (just like you probably know a dog you raised from puppyhood better than an older one you attained, the dog probably knows you just as well). So I'm not sure one is easier than the other.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 02:50 AM
Elaina Walker Elaina Walker is offline
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Originally Posted by pattymac View Post
Has anybody read anything about this method or use it themselves? I think Kevin Behan is the main person for this method and I found another trainer, Lee Charles Kelly who uses the method.

It sounds pretty interesting and is supposed to work by engaging the dog's natural drives, mostly through play. There are a few books that I think I'm going to look for. I think the website is www.naturaldogtraining.com

Hey that's quite informative.

I'm have just brought a German Spitz. And was really wondering how to start his training. This site really gave information on how dogs see the world and what this means in regards to training. I was also searching on net for more information on this and really found a very good site.

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/deeley5.htm

This is very useful for those who have bought a new puppy or are planning to do this in near future.

Last edited by Elaina Walker; June 8th, 2011 at 06:48 AM.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 01:50 PM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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As with all training methods there are some things I agree with and things I don't.
I really dont understand this "natural" movement going on be it with horses or dogs.
Fact being, there is nothing "natural" about how we keep our animals.
I am not against having pets, nor am I against proper socialization and containment of said pets, however.
As I have said probably a thousand times over the most well "balanced" and behaved dogs I have ever come across were dogs on the various reservations I worked on.
While yes these dogs were roaming free through the streets in "packs" they posed no threat to people walking playing running ect. On my lunch breaks I would park near a dog pack and watch them interact. It was amazing, there were various breeds with in the pack be them "pitbulls" shepherds, huskies, poodle and the various mixes due to not one dog being altered.
I don't know if the dogs had homes or not, I think the neighbourhood just put out food regardless if they owned dogs or not on 2 of the reserves I worked on.
All of the dogs looked to be in perfect health, not one was fat, not one was limping, not one made me think I should throw one in my truck and get it help.
These dogs all lived "naturally"

I am not saying that all dogs should be roaming around like this, in fact I don't think any should.

But many of the problems we see or hear about on this board or any other, or in training classes are man made problems.

Frustrated dogs, dogs put into situations like on leash nose to nose meetings going wrong, scuffles and fights that escallate when dogs do not know how to interact with each other properly or read body language.

Then there are the whining high anxiety dogs, the fear biters, the dogs with so much pent up energy due to lack of excercise but are expected to behave perfectly.

At any given time of day when I take all my guys out to play in the back bush it is nothing to be joined by neighbouring dogs who hear the "fun" and commotion to come join in.

Some days there can be upwards of 14 dogs all playing together and NOT ONCE have I ever dealt with a dog fight from this situation. Now all the neighbouring dogs here are intact (with the exception of some of mine and a few of the neighbours dogs). So we can easily have 4 intact males and various breeds, be it toy poodles, corgis, to "pitbulls" (there are 2 that fall in this category by looks) and Tibetan Mastiffs.

I like to think my dogs live semi naturally, being that we have 7 in one household now and all are together through out the day supervised. All of which have some breed predisposition to either being unreliable for recall, dog aggressive, stubborn, to feisty herders ect. By allowing them to do "dog things" and work out little problems they have through body language and warnings ( to which all of my dogs respect and fully understand) I give great credit to the dogs being sound and sane in "un natural" envioronments like being leash walked through a city seeing dogs only in passing on the street and not reacting in one bit, or lunging at cars ect... to the fact that they are confident in who they are either as a pack or individually and not being frustrated.

Point being, I dont see how "natural" training a dog who is housed or living "un naturally" ie single dog household because lets face it they are pack animals is possible.

Essentially there is NO way a human can teach a dog like another dog can "naturally"
For example, my dogs do not beg for food or look for food in a dish that is not theirs. Why? Because they have learned from the other dogs that you do not do this or you will either get growled at or body slammed down for snack surfing by the owner of said dish.
If Kita ( who is the top dog here for now) is eating something no one even looks twice at her doing so, let alone try to snag a bite of it. She has established that what is hers is hers already with them all by giving off warnings.
How are we supposed to mimic this naturally?

Same as "natural horsemanship" if a horse comes in at me rudely or in a disrespectful nature there is no way I can spin and kick out or reach out and bite the appropriate area to make my point that it was unacceptable to do so. How a human does it is with body language or a crop. But again, I can not pin my ears to my head as the ultimate warning that bad things will follow should you continue to do this. So with out giving the proper warning of what may come one could say I could be confusing a horse or making it unsure

Instead we teach to move off of pressure or give to it, and teach respect by moving a horse appropriately and chasing them away from us when being rude. This is the ultimate discipline for a herd or pack animal. Not allowing them to be part of the herd/pack.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 02:00 PM
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erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
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In the time it just took me to re read that, our 11 week old puppy just naturally learned about bite inhibition. He has been following Kita and spook around all day so far barking at them. He just went to Kita who is sleeping and nipped at her. She repsonded with a lunging bark/nudge which by the sound of things just rocked Rambo's world. His reaction sounded as though he had been bit in half but he was not even touched.
He ran off a few feet and then returned to Kita in a more respectful manner and layed down beside her, no doubt with a new found respect for her and her space.
I would love to see the human equivalent of this played out. For the most part, it would take a LOT longer to accomplish and possibly create a new problem in its place
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Old June 8th, 2011, 03:05 PM
GalaxiesKuklos GalaxiesKuklos is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaina Walker View Post
Hey that's quite informative.

I'm have just brought a German Spitz. And was really wondering how to start his training. This site really gave information on how dogs see the world and what this means in regards to training. I was also searching on net for more information on this and really found a very good site.

http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/deeley5.htm

This is very useful for those who have bought a new puppy or are planning to do this in near future.
Unfortunately Behan's site is full of misinformation. One thing you find common is that he tends to present his opinions as scientific fact. He often relies on argument fallacies, and large parts of his site are outright lies.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 08:06 AM
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As I have said probably a thousand times over the most well "balanced" and behaved dogs I have ever come across were dogs on the various reservations I worked on.
While yes these dogs were roaming free through the streets in "packs" they posed no threat to people walking playing running ect. On my lunch breaks I would park near a dog pack and watch them interact. It was amazing, there were various breeds with in the pack be them "pitbulls" shepherds, huskies, poodle and the various mixes due to not one dog being altered.
I don't know if the dogs had homes or not, I think the neighbourhood just put out food regardless if they owned dogs or not on 2 of the reserves I worked on.
All of the dogs looked to be in perfect health, not one was fat, not one was limping, not one made me think I should throw one in my truck and get it help.
These dogs all lived "naturally"
I don't want to thread jack here but I find this fascinating Erykah. Would you mind if i started a new thread and added in your quote?
Thx - marko
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Old June 9th, 2011, 08:08 AM
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I found it interesting as well Marko, to the point I would search out these "dog packs" on my lunch breaks. For sure start a new thread
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