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  #91  
Old April 23rd, 2011, 10:30 PM
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You m'dear have the patience of a saint. And you most certainly do not have to defend your self.
amen! amen!
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  #92  
Old April 23rd, 2011, 10:31 PM
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Off topic I know but sorry to hear that the cat did that sort of damage, 14+. I realise we could all be worse off but I know what it's like to wear a big scratch down my cheek, from a dog that used to leap up and was careless what she did with her nails. It feels like it will take forever to heal and I found it a bit embarrassing going out in public. I hope the scar fades or is better than you thought it'd be eventually. That gentleman you mentioned is like a woman here whose estranged boyfriend shot her in the face with a shotgun, it was a miracle they both survived so it's easy to see why they appreciate life so much afterwards. Does us all good to see the courage with which they go on with their lives, doesn't it?

Thanks for your concern GF. It's actually healing nicely. I've gone out a couple of times since it happened and also worked two days. It's a wonder what makeup can do these days.
Sometimes I think we all need to take a step back and look at others around us who have it so much worse than us. When we do we need to thank whatever higher being we believe in for giving us the ability to deal with our lives - no matter how tough we think they may be. As my mom used to say - There's always someone who has it rougher than you.
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  #93  
Old April 23rd, 2011, 11:32 PM
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So....Could we at least agree on one thing here. And that is: we want better understanding of how dogs are greeted/ socialized in civil society.

I'm taking baby-steps here...with a plan.

Those of us, who would like to see dogs as welcomed parts of civil society ~ please contribute to the discussion.

Nonetheless...What's okay in your town/city? Do you leave your dog outside the No Frills while you shop for an hour or is it okay to bring her in to Desjardins? Or, is it best to leave the little monster at home?

Last edited by hazelrunpack; April 23rd, 2011 at 11:39 PM. Reason: Edited for rudeness
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  #94  
Old April 24th, 2011, 03:23 AM
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So....Could we at least agree on one thing here. And that is: we want better understanding of how dogs are greeted/ socialized in civil society.

I'm taking baby-steps here...with a plan.

Those of us, who would like to see dogs as welcomed parts of civil society ~ please contribute to the discussion.

Nonetheless...What's okay in your town/city? Do you leave your dog outside the No Frills while you shop for an hour or is it okay to bring her in to Desjardins? Or, is it best to leave the little monster at home?
I personally don't believe that dogs have any place in a store or mall unless it is a working dog, OR some kind of pet event.

I also won't leave my dogs outside of any location, mostly just because I'm paranoid that someone will take them.

IMO what this all comes down to is bearing the responsibility as an owner and ensuring we understand our dogs - including fears/aggressions and what triggers them. We cannot "assume" that everyone will know proper dog etiquette.

My dog Tippy is extremely afraid of men. I cannot count how many men will approach us and ask to pet her. I always ask them not to, and the majority of guys will give me the "Oh animals LOVE me" line and attempt to pet her regardless of my initial warning - until she instantly bares her teeth, begins to cower and I have to physically step between her and the person (who usually look a bit surprised by her reaction, go figure.)

Tippy has not yet bit anyone, but I honestly think she could if pushed. When we are out in public, I am constantly on gaurd....because I know that even though people still understand that they need to *ask* before petting her, some still try it when I say no.
I have to be on my toes at all times when we are out in public, and she is getting better around men - slowly but surely. But if she did bite anyone, while on my watch, I would take full responsibility for it and not put the blame on the other person - EVER. I am the one who my dog needs to be able to rely on, I am the one responsible for making sure things like that don't happen, I am the one that needs to bring my dog home safely after choosing to take her outside in the public, in the first place.

But that's just me.
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  #95  
Old April 24th, 2011, 07:18 AM
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Hmmmmm, interesting opinions about dogs being brought into stores. When I lived in Germany back in the 80s it was quite commonplace for a family dog to be brought into stores and RESTAURANTS. Yep, and guess what, due to all the social interactions, the dogs were well behaved. They would lie under the table during dinners, just meander through the stores, pretty much ignore humans and follow their family.

I personally am all for well behaved dogs being brought into stores, they make me smile while I am doing a chore that I find absolutely deplorable. The only store that gives me any joy is Global Pet Foods. They always have dogs and cats running around (OK, the dogs are on a leash and not running, but the kitties sure are ).
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  #96  
Old April 24th, 2011, 08:39 AM
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I agree that it "would" be nice to go shopping with well behaved dogs....but the real world is full of flawed pet owners - so for me this is a terrible idea.


For every 1 dog that is perfectly trained there are thousands that are not.....

Given how irresponsible many pet owners are (with obedience training) and the fact that untrained dogs are still animals with teeth - why anyone would want to take the chance that the dogs would be well behaved in a store is beyond me.

"Well behaved dog" as a store policy is one of those words that is VERY ambiguous, therefore dangerous. Will someone evaluate every dog that enters a store for "well-behaviorness". Policies like this are just screaming for for additional injuries and lawsuits.

What's not ambiguous is no dogs allowed period. (except service animals).
The chance of injury is close to zero in this case. Store puts up a big sign stating the policy (and that if you ignore the policy store's liability is ZERO and you personally will be responsible), inform the employees of the policy.
Now the problem is pretty close to being solved...
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  #97  
Old April 24th, 2011, 12:44 PM
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I have to agree with Marko on this one.
I also want to address the question about leaving "fido" outside unattended while shopping for an hour. I personally think that it's not worth the risk, regardless of what type of dog you have or how well trained that dog may be.
I shudder when I see a dog tied to a bike rack beside the Safeway doors, grocery carts narrowly missing running over their paws or tail, people passing every which way, it can be very overwhelming for the dog, you can see the anxiety in their eyes, and when a dogs anxiety level is so high that's when bad things can happen.
Once there was a GSD, that was obviously not very people friendly, tied up by the doors. It would growl, snap, bare it's teeth, lunge and bark at people going by. You couldn't take a wide berth because it was tied up right beside the door.
You could have the sweetest dog on the planet, the best trained dog, but the human factor remains, and there are people out there that would gladly take your dog and do God knows what to it. For instance dog fighters are opportunistic, they see your lovely little pooch sitting there unattended and decide it would make a great bait dog. Or a group of perhaps not well trained teenagers take your dog and douse it in gasoline and set it ablaze, we hear these stories far too often. I don't believe leaving "fido" unattended in a public place is ever a wise thing to do. Just my opinion.
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  #98  
Old April 24th, 2011, 12:59 PM
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I agree that it "would" be nice to go shopping with well behaved dogs....but the real world is full of flawed pet owners - so for me this is a terrible idea.


For every 1 dog that is perfectly trained there are thousands that are not.....

Given how irresponsible many pet owners are (with obedience training) and the fact that untrained dogs are still animals with teeth - why anyone would want to take the chance that the dogs would be well behaved in a store is beyond me.

"Well behaved dog" as a store policy is one of those words that is VERY ambiguous, therefore dangerous. Will someone evaluate every dog that enters a store for "well-behaviorness". Policies like this are just screaming for for additional injuries and lawsuits.
I agree 110% with this. It would be nice to take my dogs into the store from time to time however... there are just too many irresponsible pet owners out there. Take Flexi leads for example, I despise them on so many levels but how many people do you see with 20 foot flexi's that let their dogs wander the full lead and think "they're on leash as per policy" meanwhile they are tripping people, wrapping that cord around your legs, lunging out at other dogs ect.
I'm quite content leaving my dogs at home while I'm shopping anyways. Last thing I would want to be doing is worrying about who is approaching my dog or what my dog is doing while I'm trying on shoes and stuff.
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  #99  
Old April 24th, 2011, 01:15 PM
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I agree 110% with this. It would be nice to take my dogs into the store from time to time however... there are just too many irresponsible pet owners out there. Take Flexi leads for example, I despise them on so many levels but how many people do you see with 20 foot flexi's that let their dogs wander the full lead and think "they're on leash as per policy" meanwhile they are tripping people, wrapping that cord around your legs, lunging out at other dogs ect.
I'm quite content leaving my dogs at home while I'm shopping anyways. Last thing I would want to be doing is worrying about who is approaching my dog or what my dog is doing while I'm trying on shoes and stuff.
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  #100  
Old April 24th, 2011, 03:14 PM
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the only stores my dog goes into with me are home depot and petvalue (food store), I use a 16 foot flexi leash when we walk and have for our last 3 dogs, in fact its the same leash, when near people or walking on a sidewalk like in Brockville, her leash is shortened to 4 feet and she walks nicely beside me, on the bike path its extended to its full length, when she spots a bike, a joker or a rollerblader she comes back to me automatically and walks by my side, I "lock" the leash just in case she decides to join the kids passing by.
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  #101  
Old April 24th, 2011, 05:12 PM
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I agree with LMPG and Erykah,do not bring a dog if you go shopping,we don't see it her very often though.
I have Bailey on a 15foot leash,but only because I want her to be able to sniff things etc..which she does a lot,however,if someone approaches us I pull her in right away,because she does snap at some people.
I never let anyone pet her.
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  #102  
Old April 24th, 2011, 09:20 PM
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Can you imagine what a nightmare shopping must be for the person who is really scared of dogs? We shouldn't make light of that simply because we dog lovers aren't. I am scared of spiders and to imagine a shop crawling with them is creeping me out just thinking about it. LOL.

Bailey, erykah, Marko and LMPG, had to agree with all you've said. Interesting point about someone vetting each dog as it walks in the door, Marko. They'd risk being bitten but also, how would they know if it's a dog aggressive dog? I enjoy my dog free time while I shop and because my dogs are reared the way they are, we have never ever had separation anxiety. (from me or them. ) Leaving them unattended anywhere outside my home though is not on, except for at a vet clinic of course if they need to stay there.
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  #103  
Old April 25th, 2011, 08:22 AM
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You guys are too much. Not every Tom, Dick & Harry would bring their dogs with them when they shop , I would imagine most people wouldn't want to bring their dogs, I don't think it's all that convenient.

I did NOT see one misbehaved dog while I was there (lived there for a total of 7 years ), whether it be walking on the street, going for hikes (and you are never alone on a hike), or eating in a restaurant. Maybe the dogs are more socialized there, better bred, or they have better owners , but it's really not the nightmare you guys imagine . Or people had consideration for society and would leave their "misbehaving" dogs at home . Just because you "can" doesn't mean you "should".

As for the fear of dogs or dog aggression, well that doesn't just suddenly appear in stores, it is there when walking in the park (now that is a nightmare when owners allow their dogs off leash in public parks and one is biking by only to have a dog bite at the heels of the biker ), on the sidewalk, or in the front yard. It does make it unpleasant for those who are afraid of dogs to enjoy the outside because of "misbehaving" dogs, so should dogs be allowed in public parks? On the sidewalks? Really that argument for not being allowed in stores is a moot point, IMHO. Ignorant dog owners are everywhere .
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  #104  
Old April 25th, 2011, 11:03 AM
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I just want to know, how the Shih Tzu made out. The womens face will heal, all dogs will be banned from the store, the owner will pay the fine, but what about the dog.....
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  #105  
Old April 25th, 2011, 11:47 AM
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I wouldn't care how well behaved dogs are, or are not, I am glad I live in a society where they are not welcome in shops., and certainly never in restaurants. Oh, and in some Parks here dogs most certainly are not allowed. I was told to move on from one in SA when my sister and I went to the Royal Adelaide Show with Dalmatians and she wanted to let them have a break and stretch their legs. A lot of caravan parks won't allow dogs now because of the past misdemeanors of lazy irresponsible dog owners that never clean up after their dogs. I can understand it and accept that there are a lot of people who don't expect or want our CBD to be cluttered with everyone's pets. Why would you need to take a dog shopping? Socialising can be done at a dog park, puppy parties(do your vets run them?) or at obedience classes, with friends etc.. I fail to see what would interest a dog in shops, because given the choice most would prefer to go chase a rabbit, roll in some horse manure, tree a sqirrel or run around with other dogs. Is it for the dog to socialise, or for the owner? Just strikes me that in a lot of cases it is attention seeking.
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  #106  
Old April 25th, 2011, 12:03 PM
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I wouldn't care how well behaved dogs are, or are not, I am glad I live in a society where they are not welcome in shops., and certainly never in restaurants. Oh, and in some Parks here dogs most certainly are not allowed. I was told to move on from one in SA when my sister and I went to the Royal Adelaide Show with Dalmatians and she wanted to let them have a break and stretch their legs. A lot of caravan parks won't allow dogs now because of the past misdemeanors of lazy irresponsible dog owners that never clean up after their dogs. I can understand it and accept that there are a lot of people who don't expect or want our CBD to be cluttered with everyone's pets. Why would you need to take a dog shopping? Socialising can be done at a dog park, puppy parties(do your vets run them?) or at obedience classes, with friends etc.. I fail to see what would interest a dog in shops, because given the choice most would prefer to go chase a rabbit, roll in some horse manure, tree a sqirrel or run around with other dogs. Is it for the dog to socialise, or for the owner? Just strikes me that in a lot of cases it is attention seeking.
I don't people intentionally brought their dogs shopping, they may have been walking by and wanted something. In Germany, a lot of shopping was done in the "Marketplatz", which was like an old road that was closed off to traffic and people would be walking by and maybe somebody wanted to pop in to buy something because they saw something in the window . Who knows what their reason was, I never asked . All I know is that it didn't seem to disturb anybody, and it sure didn't bother me, I love well behaved dogs .

When we were in a "gasthaus" , we would see the dogs just lying under their master's chair or table. No problems, no disturbances. What I found more disturbing was the flies and the bees all over the baked goods in the bakery and the fact there was probably cockroaches that were all over the anything left out overnight . But that didn't seem to bother anybody either .

All I am saying, is that when a dog is behaved, it's really no big deal if they are in these places, it's just society's outlook on what is acceptable or not. To each it's own, I guess.
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  #107  
Old April 25th, 2011, 12:51 PM
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I haven't visited Canada or Germany, L4H, but as you have, are you talking about similar cities? I'm sure if that lady with the Shih Tzu had had it tucked under a table it wouldn't have bitten the other woman's nose, but if she left it home it wouldn't have the opportunity to even see a passing ankle as being tempting. And sorry, Shay, I use it as an example omly because it was allowed to get into trouble, to be truthful about my own dogs, people wouldn't want to be passing too close to a table with a cattle dog under it. LOL. There is just no escaping the fact that if dogs were not allowed in that store, that woman would not have such a nasty injury. Cat owners manage to leave their cats at home for the time it takes to do their shopping.
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  #108  
Old April 25th, 2011, 01:00 PM
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I am strictly talking Germany, NOT Canada. Oh Lord, I don't think you could get a dog into a restaurant here (service dogs excepted of course ).

However, since I have seen both sides, I personally, don't have a problem with well behaved dogs in restaurants or any store. AND I think many dogs are better behaved than some children . Dogs make me smile
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  #109  
Old April 25th, 2011, 01:52 PM
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As for the fear of dogs or dog aggression, well that doesn't just suddenly appear in stores, it is there when walking in the park (now that is a nightmare when owners allow their dogs off leash in public parks and one is biking by only to have a dog bite at the heels of the biker ), on the sidewalk, or in the front yard. It does make it unpleasant for those who are afraid of dogs to enjoy the outside because of "misbehaving" dogs, so should dogs be allowed in public parks? On the sidewalks? Really that argument for not being allowed in stores is a moot point, IMHO. Ignorant dog owners are everywhere .
I totally agree with you on the whole park thing L4! Can't tell you the number of times I have walked in parks and have seen dogs running free (even though they are supposed to be leashed) or come close to stepping in their waste. I have also seen the bikers being nipped at by dogs. In fact my Tasha if given the chance would nip too. She hated bikes!!!


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And sorry, Shay, I use it as an example omly because it was allowed to get into trouble, to be truthful about my own dogs, people wouldn't want to be passing too close to a table with a cattle dog under it. LOL.
I don't know GF. Do you raise your cattle dogs differently than here in my little part of the world? We have quite a number of them that I see on a regular basis. They are quite happy walking along side a stroller on their leads, or walking with their masters, all very well behaved. We even have two that do indeed lay under a table at one of our outdoor cafe spots in warm weather. They are a great favourite with people going by. They are quite young. Only 3 years old or so. Maybe that makes a difference? Some of the stories you have told us about yours - I would be petrified to stand close to them for fear of a bite.

I think this whole thread is getting a little off track. Some of you seem to think that dogs run amok in stores here. They don't. Most of the time in this area at least I don't even see dogs in the stores they are allowed in - pets stores. I do see guide dogs in the store I work in. Their trainer has them in daily from the time they are very young babies till the time they leave to go to the learning centre for more extensive training. I have never ever seen a dog in any Home Depots around here.
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Old April 25th, 2011, 03:27 PM
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I don't mind my thread going off topic, I'm rather enjoying hearing so many sides from so many different people. You rarely go into our home depot without seeing a dog. In the summer, our outdoor market is always filled with dogs, in fact they have a special dog day where there is a photographer catching pics of your dogs, a dog "trick" competition where the shoppers choose the winner *L* and a doggie dress up contest, we missed it last year but plan on taking in this years fun. Brina comes there with us all the time and her favorite booth is the dog cookie one. But then again , its a downtown outdoor market. on our bike path, (where I'm getting ready to go to right now) I always give a large berth to anyone coming, Brina and I get right off the path and continue walking.
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  #111  
Old April 25th, 2011, 03:37 PM
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I don't mind my thread going off topic, I'm rather enjoying hearing so many sides from so many different people. You rarely go into our home depot without seeing a dog. In the summer, our outdoor market is always filled with dogs, in fact they have a special dog day where there is a photographer catching pics of your dogs, a dog "trick" competition where the shoppers choose the winner *L* and a doggie dress up contest, we missed it last year but plan on taking in this years fun. Brina comes there with us all the time and her favorite booth is the dog cookie one. But then again , its a downtown outdoor market. on our bike path, (where I'm getting ready to go to right now) I always give a large berth to anyone coming, Brina and I get right off the path and continue walking.
And that is the way I remember it being in Germany. It really wasn't at all, in fact it was very nice
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  #112  
Old April 25th, 2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
I don't mind my thread going off topic,
Sorry Melinda. I didn't mean it was a bad thing.
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  #113  
Old April 25th, 2011, 04:23 PM
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Melinda Melinda is offline
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Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Sorry Melinda. I didn't mean it was a bad thing.
no no, I didn't think you did, but I didn't want mods to close or "remind" anyone to stay on topic, I'm enjoying this.

on a side note, I met our assistant manager of Home Depot on the bike path, she was biking by and stopped to see Brina. We were talking about the incident and she said "I hope you won't stop bringing Brina in to see us" but I told her I would only take her to the garden part of the store, its sort of "open air"....fenced in but only a partial roof. So I guess its up to each store?
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  #114  
Old April 25th, 2011, 05:20 PM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melinda View Post
on a side note, I met our assistant manager of Home Depot on the bike path, she was biking by and stopped to see Brina. We were talking about the incident and she said "I hope you won't stop bringing Brina in to see us" but I told her I would only take her to the garden part of the store, its sort of "open air"....fenced in but only a partial roof. So I guess its up to each store?
Awww, that is so nice of her.
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  #115  
Old April 25th, 2011, 07:37 PM
CRC CRC is offline
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Originally Posted by Bailey_ View Post
My dog Tippy is extremely afraid of men. I cannot count how many men will approach us and ask to pet her. I always ask them not to, and the majority of guys will give me the "Oh animals LOVE me" line and attempt to pet her regardless of my initial warning - until she instantly bares her teeth, begins to cower and I have to physically step between her and the person (who usually look a bit surprised by her reaction, go figure.)
:
Have you worked on training your dog to deal with men? Have you tried a professional. This seems like an accident waiting to happen.

Our dog was like this when she first arrived here.....she disliked men although she wasn't aggressive toward them. It took a lot of time and effort to train her that men were okay...it can be done.
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  #116  
Old April 25th, 2011, 08:31 PM
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Tundra_Queen Tundra_Queen is offline
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I am strictly talking Germany, NOT Canada. Oh Lord, I don't think you could get a dog into a restaurant here (service dogs excepted of course ).

However, since I have seen both sides, I personally, don't have a problem with well behaved dogs in restaurants or any store. AND I think many dogs are better behaved than some children . Dogs make me smile
I remember when my mom and I were in Old Quebec City back in the 80's this older couple brought in 2 little poodles into the restaurant we were at. I was surprised, but they must have gone in there often as the waitress never said anything to them and the odgs started out first sitting on the bench before they were put on the floor. LOL They were very well behaved though. We only noticed them because they came in after we were seated.
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  #117  
Old April 25th, 2011, 09:00 PM
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Goldfields Goldfields is offline
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Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post

I don't know GF. Do you raise your cattle dogs differently than here in my little part of the world? We have quite a number of them that I see on a regular basis. They are quite happy walking along side a stroller on their leads, or walking with their masters, all very well behaved. We even have two that do indeed lay under a table at one of our outdoor cafe spots in warm weather. They are a great favourite with people going by. They are quite young. Only 3 years old or so. Maybe that makes a difference? Some of the stories you have told us about yours - I would be petrified to stand close to them for fear of a bite.

I think this whole thread is getting a little off track. Some of you seem to think that dogs run amok in stores here. They don't. Most of the time in this area at least I don't even see dogs in the stores they are allowed in - pets stores. I do see guide dogs in the store I work in. Their trainer has them in daily from the time they are very young babies till the time they leave to go to the learning centre for more extensive training. I have never ever seen a dog in any Home Depots around here.
Nice sweet cattle dogs do not conform to the Standard for the breed, 14+. Under CHARACTERISTICS it states 'Whilst suspicious of strangers, must be amenable to handling in the show ring,'(some are not and judges have received nasty bites). Under EYES it states 'A warning or suspicious glint is characteristic'. (Does that sound like a friendly dog? ) They are essentially a one person dog, bred for guarding and working difficult wild cattle, not as pets, and if you've seen quite a number I can assure you, not as many as I have. So, I will ignore the slur on my training and just say that cattle dogs being cattle dogs, you could stand safely next to mine if I'm on the end of the lead and concentrating, if you took liberties and treated them like they should be your friend, different story, and if you visited my place , they were loose and we weren't there, unless you were very dog smart, you could get bitten. If you trod on one's foot or tail accidentally while it lay under a table at a cafe, well ..... It would be MY fault if you are hurt for having taken it there! I still feel the CBD is no place for pets.
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  #118  
Old April 25th, 2011, 09:12 PM
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luckypenny luckypenny is offline
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When we first adopted Lucky and Penny, I would try to take them to as many public places as possible because of their lack of socialization. However, even when Penny was muzzled, had on her "don't touch" vest, and with me telling people not to touch her...many still did . I always heard either, "oh, it's ok, I'm good with dogs" or "but she's a Labrador, they're friendly dogs" . So, other than car rides and for walks around the perimeter of shopping mall parking lots, I don't take them out in public anymore. It's a shame really and makes me feel as if I've failed them to a certain extent but, it's not a chance I'm willing to take if complete strangers ignore my warnings.
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  #119  
Old April 25th, 2011, 09:19 PM
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Goldfields Goldfields is offline
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
I am strictly talking Germany, NOT Canada. Oh Lord, I don't think you could get a dog into a restaurant here (service dogs excepted of course ).

However, since I have seen both sides, I personally, don't have a problem with well behaved dogs in restaurants or any store. AND I think many dogs are better behaved than some children . Dogs make me smile
How true is that! My husband and I hate going shopping during school holidays. Yes, personally you and I, and all the other dog lovers here wouldn't mind dogs in stores or wherever, but other people need to be considered, and then there are those healthy and safety regulations.
If Home Depot say no dogs now, yet Melinda was invited to take Brina back, looks like that will policed exactly as it was in the past.
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  #120  
Old April 25th, 2011, 09:36 PM
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Goldfields Goldfields is offline
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LP, I know what that's like. I had a lovely looking red speckled boy. Handsome fellow with two matched eye patches, a lovely speckled coat, and he would stand in front of people wagging his tail, looking friendly, but he could wag the tail and still be ready to bite . He wanted no attention until he said it was okay, and so I went through that same annoyance with people almost begging me "Are you SURE he'd bite?" "He looks so friendly" , "Are you SURE I can't pat him?". I should have let them, it would have shut them up! We had a visitor though who really was literally deaf to my warnings not to touch him, so she did pat him, and the minute she stopped, he bit her. Luckily it was another cattle dog owner who understood she shouldn't have touched him. I could never have taken him out shopping, my patience with idiots who won't listen wouldn't last that long. LOL
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