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Old March 24th, 2010, 05:30 PM
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Kateryna Kateryna is offline
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Agression-6 y.o. Maltese...Giving up :(

Hi,

I don't know what to do anymore. I got my Maltese 6 years ago when my mother passed away. I used him as a security blanket. Then I got married. Now we had twins (8 months old).

My dog:

- Never ever let anyone come inside my house because he attacks (I lost half of my friends because if this)
- Bites my husband by his toes; territorial with him (ex. will not let him go to the couch; will not move away and stands his ground)
- Marks my house
- Barks at and attempts to fight with any dog the we pass during walks (I always have to change sidewalks)
- Aggressive towards passing people during walks. Bit my neighbors fingers.
- Aggressive and predatory towards my crawling twins; has a "hyena" behavior of obsessing and walking in circles if I am holding babies on the floor.
- Bites and growls at me if I attempt to clean or brush him
- Has to be sedated for grooming

He is currently separated by baby gates. Only allowed in kitchen, breakfast area and family room.
My twins have to be separated playing in the family room. This is not a life for a dog. Also bad fir my babies who don't have access to my whole house and this cannot continue for long since they will be walking soon and I cannot keep them segregated.

I already spent over $1,000 on various trainers. My sister tried adopting him and he bit her son.

Please tell me what you think (I would appreciate brutal honesty!), I am heartbroken because I love him so much but this cannot continue. I feel trapped. No one can come to my house and I never have guests. I know it's my fault and I feel terrible but I hope this can be fixed somehow or maybe it is too late at 6 years old...

Is he hopeless?

Last edited by Kateryna; March 24th, 2010 at 06:59 PM.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 06:33 PM
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Winston Winston is offline
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Wow I am so sorry you feel like giving up. I just have to say forst off and for most people will be honest here and perhaps you may or may not like what various people think. Having said that please have open mind and consider everything before you make any decsions.

You have brought up some points that cannot be dealt with over night and there are many. I have some questions for you.

What did the trainers say about the situation?

What did they reccomend you to do?

Has this always been the way your dog has behaved? when did it change?

Does your dog get exercise other than the area you have him seperated in?

How is your dog around other dogs?

What situation caused your dog to bite? how was it dealt with?

Are you the Alpha in the house? How do you discipline the dog when he is misbehaving?

Do you think your dog respects you?

I could probably ask you quite a few more questions but lets start there!

I hope that myself and the rest of the members here can help you out as there are some wonderful here with a ton of knowledge!

Cheers

Cindy
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:23 PM
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Kateryna Kateryna is offline
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Hi Cindy,

Thank you so much for your response.

You and everyone else reading: Please be as honest as you can. I don't want you sugar-coating and I can handle different views, that's why I am asking for help. I already know I am the only one to blame for this.

You have brought up some points that cannot be dealt with over night and there are many. I have some questions for you.

What did the trainers say about the situation?

We were kicked out of "group" training and deemed "hopeless" since Tinker (my dog) would not stop barking even when sprayed with water by trainer. This was when he was only 2. I also tried Bark Busters and they said he is trainable, but after 2-3 months of following their routine, it does not work.

What did they recommend you to do?
Separate myself from him; Use laundry room as a crate and leave him there when I am not around. Say loud "Baaaahhhh" noise to correct him. Some said to spray water. Some said to use quick nudge on the back.


Has this always been the way your dog has behaved? When did it change?
He was ok as a puppy when I got him in October I tried to socialize him. He almost got bitten by a dog off the leash. Then winter came and he pretty much stayed at home with my grieving father until May so 7 months. I did not walk him either because he was super tiny and there was a lot of snow.

Once he was 1 year old, he started barking at people coming to my house or stranger touching him.

It got really bad now because I have two infants and can't spend any time with him. He marks everything. Barks. Tries to attack my babies through the gate.


Does your dog get exercise other than the area you have him separated in?

During summer (May-October) he gets walked about 3-4 times a week. During winter, he used to play in the basement (we have huge running area) and I would run & play fetch there with him to a point that he was so tired he could not catch his breath and would go lie down.


How is your dog around other dogs?
Cannot come even close to them. He initiates a fight, barks and tries to bite. I am scared so I never even try anymore.


What situation caused your dog to bite? How was it dealt with?

Not sure really. He was never abused or dealt with harshly. On the contrary, he used to be the king of the house and was very dominant. He will bite if he is close to anyone but me. He bit me a couple of times when I tried to pull him on a leash away from a stranger. He seems "psychotic" at times, like he is possessed.


Are you the Alpha in the house? How do you discipline the dog when he is misbehaving?
I tried to be "Alpha" but I am not sure I am one. He used to get corrected by firm "NO". He usually could not care less for it. Later I started doing the "Alpha" thing recommended by Bark Busters and did loud "Baaah" and a small pillow throw on the floor near him (not at him) as to imitate dog snap.
When on the leash, I tried holing him close, but he pulls and pulls and even with persistence and many walks, he still pulls. If I try to say no, or pull him back, it's as if he is in another universe where I don't exist.

Do you think your dog respects you?
I really don't know. He does always come if I call, with a tail crunched under which in my understanding is a sign of submission. He also extends his paw (which is so adorable) as if to say "I give up" when called. He can go pee on command.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:44 PM
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babymomma babymomma is offline
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I would suggest finding a behaviourist that uses Positive reinforcement.

Stay as far away from barkbusters as possible. They really have no Idea what they are doing. They use terrible "techniques" and try to supress the issues instead of actually dealing with them.

I would like to send you a personal message but you need more posts before I can do that.


OMG, they seriously recommended you throw a pillow at him (No fault of your own. I just seriously despise barkbusters)
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:45 PM
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luckypenny luckypenny is offline
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Originally Posted by babymomma View Post
I would suggest finding a behaviourist that uses Positive reinforcement.
My thoughts exactly.

Kateryna, have you ever had anyone teach you to teach your dog what to do rather than what not to do? I think that's why the training you've attempted didn't work, if anything, it may have made the issues worse. It's my belief that you're not supposed to scare your dog into doing, or not doing, something. You have to teach it calmly and with respect. Think about how you teach your children something new...I bet you're gentle and let them know when you're pleased...which will improve the chances of them repeating the behaviors. As they grow up, if someone huge looms over them threateningly, punishes them, and forces them to do something they haven't been taught how to, you can bet some serious issues are going to arise. The same concept can be applied to dogs and any animals.

Would you be willing to try a different, more gentler approach to training? Would your husband be on board? I can promise that it won't work overnight but, I can also promise that you'll see some positive results as long as you make the best effort and are consistent, patient, and realistic in your expectations. You may never have the "perfect" dog, but you can adjust your lives painlessly, in turn, sparing your dog's life and ensuring your children's safety.

I don't recommend classes. It will force your dog into an overwhelming environment that he is not ready for. You need an experienced behaviorist specializing in aggression that can teach you both the theoretical and practical elements for you and your dog to communicate appropriately with each other.

If you decide to commit to this, we can help you find someone able to work with you.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:51 PM
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babymomma babymomma is offline
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I think you should work on NILIF training (nothing in life is free)

And try ambilical training. (Dog is tied to you're waste and has to go where you go at all times and it helps you keep on eye on him)...

ALSO, if you can get your hands on a copy of the book "click to calm".. that would be a HUGE help.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 07:56 PM
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can't add anything to what has already been suggested, but hope you can find some help for you and your furbabe

Don't give up please...
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Old March 24th, 2010, 08:05 PM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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Originally Posted by Kateryna View Post
On the contrary, he used to be the king of the house and was very dominant.
You hit the nail right on the head!! As a pup, he was allowed to be the boss since nobody else wanted the job. The problem with that is, besides all of the problems that you are having now, is that your dog doesn't know HOW to be the boss. So, he barks at things that stress him out and snaps at people who push him too far.

Yes. You need to find a behaviourist who uses positive reinforcement.

In the meantime, Nothing In Life Is Free is a good place to start. There are also a few other things you need to do.

This dog stays on the floor. Sitting on your lap and being on the furniture are priviledges that must be earned. Until the snapping and biting stop, he hasn't earned it.

EVERYONE in your household has to be on the same page with anything you do. It will do you no good at all to work with this dog during the day only to have your husband (or whoever) come home, give the dog treats, let him on the furniture, etc.

This dog has a bite history. There is absolutely no way around that fact and to ignore it is irresponsible. While I know that a majority of people here will disagree with me, the fact of the matter is that if you rehome this dog and it bites someone - you can be held liable. If you can not work this out - with professional help - then you need to put this dog to sleep.
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Old March 24th, 2010, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by LavenderRott View Post
While I know that a majority of people here will disagree with me, the fact of the matter is that if you rehome this dog and it bites someone - you can be held liable. If you can not work this out - with professional help - then you need to put this dog to sleep.
I agree 100% with you LR..
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Old March 24th, 2010, 10:42 PM
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I think what you need to do is, show him he is a DOG not a human, he has no special privileges - No couch or anything that is spoiling him. YOU are alpha, if he is somewhere, you go over there and take his spot by physically walking through him (may want to wear shoes).

Walking - Try the umbilical method - running left -right-back -forth quickly so that HE has to look to YOU to see where you're going, he has to follow. Do not let him walk infront of you, this is a privilege he has to earn.

When he's being aggressive with dogs, hold him close to you and make your hand into a "claw" and touch him on his side by his shoulder blade and give a little pinch (this is to imitate a alpha dog biting him, saying "I don't like what you're doing, stop it). Once he looks at you, tell him to sit or place him into a sit position, if he starts to become aggressive again, do this again. If it doesn't work after a couple tries, take the other dog and your dog in separate hands and keep them on short leash and walk them together, one on one side the other on the other side so they can't touch each other and can't sniff each other, walking is very natural for dogs and when they walk thats all they think of is going forward, they don't think of who's beside them.

Try Cesar Millan - his methods are amazing and work GREAT on my dog and alot of dogs I know. Plus if you think about it, his method makes the most sense and its not violent.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 12:25 AM
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It must be such a powerless and helpless feeling if your home, your routine, your time with you children is so overshadowed by your dog's behaviour. I had two babies in two years, and that was hard enough. The sleep deprivation, the adjustment to having two such tiny beings depend on me, being touched out, stretched to the max. Having twins that are just learning to roll and crawl and chat and eat, and then having these problems... I just wish I could give you a hug. And a break.

I really hope you find a solution that works for you.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 05:24 AM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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Originally Posted by Stinkycat View Post

When he's being aggressive with dogs, hold him close to you and make your hand into a "claw" and touch him on his side by his shoulder blade and give a little pinch (this is to imitate a alpha dog biting him, saying "I don't like what you're doing, stop it). Once he looks at you, tell him to sit or place him into a sit position, if he starts to become aggressive again, do this again. If it doesn't work after a couple tries, take the other dog and your dog in separate hands and keep them on short leash and walk them together, one on one side the other on the other side so they can't touch each other and can't sniff each other, walking is very natural for dogs and when they walk thats all they think of is going forward, they don't think of who's beside them.

Try Cesar Millan - his methods are amazing and work GREAT on my dog and alot of dogs I know. Plus if you think about it, his method makes the most sense and its not violent.
The LAST thing you want to do with this dog when he is aggressing is to hold him close to you and pinch him. I would be absolutely stunned if doing this didn't get you bit and bit hard! Answering aggression with aggression causes more aggression. And you certainly don't want to try to walk your dog WITH another dog while he is aggressing. I wouldn't be introducing this dog to any new dogs at all until you start to get a handle on his aggression issues.

As for Cesar - to each his own but I haven't seen him suggest a single thing that I would ever use on my dogs.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 05:35 AM
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to the OP,,you have gotten some excellent advise from the others. I will suggest if you or your spouse are concerned about being bitten while working with the dog, use a tennis racket or something to hold infront of your legs as a sheild. One thing i'm surprised no one has asked " is the dog neutered". As for Cesar,,i just have this to say " of course no one on here would need to use him,,he doesn't deal with well balanced , properly trained dogs, would be kinda redundant wouldn't it." Take from each trainer what you can use and throw the rest away. On that note i will pm Bailey and see if she can help.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 08:13 AM
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babymomma babymomma is offline
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Originally Posted by Stinkycat View Post
I think what you need to do is, show him he is a DOG not a human, he has no special privileges - No couch or anything that is spoiling him. YOU are alpha, if he is somewhere, you go over there and take his spot by physically walking through him (may want to wear shoes).

Walking - Try the umbilical method - running left -right-back -forth quickly so that HE has to look to YOU to see where you're going, he has to follow. Do not let him walk infront of you, this is a privilege he has to earn.

When he's being aggressive with dogs, hold him close to you and make your hand into a "claw" and touch him on his side by his shoulder blade and give a little pinch (this is to imitate a alpha dog biting him, saying "I don't like what you're doing, stop it). Once he looks at you, tell him to sit or place him into a sit position, if he starts to become aggressive again, do this again. If it doesn't work after a couple tries, take the other dog and your dog in separate hands and keep them on short leash and walk them together, one on one side the other on the other side so they can't touch each other and can't sniff each other, walking is very natural for dogs and when they walk thats all they think of is going forward, they don't think of who's beside them.

Try Cesar Millan - his methods are amazing and work GREAT on my dog and alot of dogs I know. Plus if you think about it, his method makes the most sense and its not violent.
I would just like to point out one thing. You have worked with trainers that wanted you to use these types of mehtods and where exactly has that gotten you?

If anything it has made him worse. Please dont try to suppress these issues with these methods. Chances are you're dog with either get worse or will shutdown. You may get short term results but its not whats best for him.m

I tried these types of things with my yorkie when she was reactive/agressive. It worked..Not for long though. It wasnt long before she just started up again only when she did it was 10 times worse then she ever was. Probably from the pent up frustration from using cesar millan methods.

(there is a reason there is a Disclaimer before each episode of CM, "Do not try these techniques at home " )
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Old March 25th, 2010, 08:42 AM
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As a foster to many dogs (over a 100) in the past years and a mother of 3 children myself. I will have to agree with Lavenderrott. If you cannot find a proper trainer or do not have enough time to work with your dog. Then he cannot possibly stay in your home. By the sounds of it he is very unpredictable and young children are also. If he was just a visiting dog, then yes, it would be possible to keep everyone seperate and work with him. But right now, with 2 young, soon to be toddlers. I cannot see how you will be able to manage it.
Even though he is small dog, he could probably do serious harm to one of your children.
I know it's not a popular decision and perhaps others have different views, as i am only speaking through my own personal experience. Lots of luck to you on whatever decision you decide to make.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:11 AM
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Kateryna Kateryna is offline
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Thank you all so so much for all your replies and kind words. Thank you, thank you.

Someone asked before, yes, my dog is neutered.

I just ordered two books: "Complete Idiots Guide To Positive Dog Training" & "Click To Calm: Healing The Aggressive Dog"

Than you for your suggestions, I will try this.

Currently he is not allowed on any couches.

I feel so trapped and lost. My life at home is not happy because of the situation with my dog. I have absolutely no family here so I had an opportunity to hire help with my twins, but I could not contain my dog who would attack. I am also unable to have other moms come to my house for play-dates.

It's not a good life for us, and not good life for my dog. I feel terrible for separating him, and when I am with my babies, I am tormented by the fact that he is locked away. He is just existing, not living and this is wrong.

My kids are not allowed in certain parts of the house because of my dog and I don't know if this can continue any longer as I cannot segregate my kids because of the dog. They will be walking soon, and then what?

All I want to do is cry because I have to make a choice between my dog and safety of my babies. I would never give him up, as I don't think he will be rehabilitated. I am thinking about euthanasia but I cannot even imagine doing it. Trapped.

If you don't feel comfortable sharing your views in a post, please send me a personal message with your point of view. I would really really appreciate this. You can also e-mail me at [personal email removed].

Have you heard of AlphaPaws company? Do you think they are worth trying? They have "Board & Train" programms for 15 days that deals with agression.

http://www.alphapaws.com/default.aspx

Do you think it's ok to hire someone to walk my dog or would that be bad for his training?

Again, thank you so much...

Last edited by Blackbear; March 25th, 2010 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Please, no personal email addresses. Members should PM the OP.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcha View Post
It must be such a powerless and helpless feeling if your home, your routine, your time with you children is so overshadowed by your dog's behaviour. I had two babies in two years, and that was hard enough. The sleep deprivation, the adjustment to having two such tiny beings depend on me, being touched out, stretched to the max. Having twins that are just learning to roll and crawl and chat and eat, and then having these problems... I just wish I could give you a hug. And a break.

I really hope you find a solution that works for you.
Thanks you so much...It is very much "powerless and helpless" atmosphere in my home right now
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Old March 25th, 2010, 09:15 AM
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If he wouldnt react badley to a dog walker i would suggest it. I gaurantee alot of his frustration comes from not enough physical or mental stimulation..
Maybe put a muzzle on him before the DW comes but make sure they know about his issues and fon out if they are experiacned enough to handle him .

Good luck.

ETA, I dont think its a trainer your dog needs. He needs a Behavourist.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:54 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Yeesh.

Until recently I probably would have been a wealth of advice...but as luck would have it, I was faced with a small dog that had some major issues. I tried everything possible (ie - blood work, tests, consulted a trainer, herbal therapy (which I do did not believe in) you name it, I did it. Every training method imaginable (except clicker training as useless when a piece of fresh roast would not even shake him out of a frenzy). I ended up consulting with another rescue that specialize in dogs with issues. I felt totally defeated, embarassed and questioned myself and my interpretations of the behaviour and/or temperment. I sucked up the pride and asked for another to help. The rescue contacted me and after a few days...the 'behaviour' raised it's ugly head...and it was confirmed behaviour.

To see is to believe. We can dissect this all we want but the true saviour in all this will be a professional to access your dog.

I was given different tips and ideas without this dog being physically seen, and I do believe that I was totally being underestimated in my own assessment, thought to be crazy, and ultimately totally lost hope in myself and the dog. I was vindicated as the rescue saw what I saw but they are much more savvy in helping this dog overcome his foul behaviour...though it will take months to rectify the damage done.

Please make some calls to try and reach a behaviouralist that is recommended by other professionals (vets etc) or even members here that have direct contact with the best. This will help you tremendously to help the dog or make the right decision.

I hope that LuckyPenny is following this thread as she is the BEST person to assist you in finding that right person. I would follow her lead.

Sorry I cannot provide any miracle guideance, but up until now I thought that I could fix anything...I finally met one I could not...but someone else could.

Last edited by BenMax; March 25th, 2010 at 10:58 AM. Reason: spelling of course...
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Old March 25th, 2010, 10:57 AM
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Wow you sure have your hands full and I feel for you. If you are willing to tackle all of these issues then more power to you, but my honest opinion is that you are probably in overload. I can well imagine it would be a gut wrenching thing to do, but I think you may all benefit from rehoming the dog if you could find a rescue group maybe who could work with him. I don't think the dog is beyond help by any means, but I just don't see how you can take all of this on with the two babies right now. Again, bravo to you if you can, you're a better woman than I am. I don't doubt your wish to try to right the situation, just your ability given the circumstances. You've gotten some great advice here and I sure do wish you the best of luck with it all. That said, if you feel it's best to part ways with the dog please ask for assistance on the board here on how best to do this. Please do not post an ad in the paper to give him away or sell him. I wish I could offer you some advice, just do what you know is right. Also, you mention a boarding/training situation - don't go there. The true value in training is what the human learns in how to deal with their pets, not what the pets learn. I tried that once with one of my dogs when I had to go out of town so I boarded him at a training facility, I would never do it again.

Good luck to you and
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Old March 25th, 2010, 11:08 AM
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I wouldnt gve him to rescue. I would rather he be PTS in loving arms then with strangers. I think it would be irresponsible to rehome him. Thats jmo of course.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 11:12 AM
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Babymomma I agree PTS may be best, but it would be a very very hard decision. BenMax had success with having a rescue work with her aggressive beastie and perhaps with the right help from the right rescue this dog could be saved. Just throwing it out there as an option as well, but strongly suggest she get input from BenMax or Luckypenny for this.
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Old March 25th, 2010, 11:15 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Originally Posted by babymomma View Post
I wouldnt gve him to rescue. I would rather he be PTS in loving arms then with strangers. I think it would be irresponsible to rehome him. Thats jmo of course.
If you self doubt your own abilities Babymomma and you want to exhaust all your options, then I don't see why you wouldn't try. You can always always arrange with a rescue that if there is nothing to be done, that you can take back the dog or be present when the dog passes over the bridge.

I am with a rescue..several actually and I needed the expertise of another...so I took that invitation and ran with it. This rescue is doing whatever they can to help him. No - he was not my dog, but for every animal that I take in I consider them as being mine..and I build a very strong attachement and I am dedicated to them until such time.

The recommendation for the little dog that I had was euthanasia. I was considering this as the only option but I consulted with SO many people and many rescues that I found out through this consultation, there was an option....and I took it. I am glad I did as this woman is able to help him while I could not.

Personally, I think that everyone has provided some excellent advise. It is a tough case.
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  #24  
Old March 25th, 2010, 11:47 AM
dannyg1001 dannyg1001 is offline
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What a horrible situation. i feel for you. In my opinion you have to make your children the priority here
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  #25  
Old March 25th, 2010, 11:50 AM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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Alpha dogs has a decent website but it caught my eye right away that they teach off leash work with an e-collar. While I don't discount the use of e-collars for some dogs and some behaviours - I don't believe that it is necessary for most dogs and certainly not for something as basic off leash work.

Think long and hard before sending your dog to someone to keep for training. I have heard many more horror stories of dogs being hurt, "lost" or killed then I have heard stories of good outcomes. Also take into consideration that by sending the dog away, you are immediately removing all of the dogs regular stressers. Anyone who deals with foster dogs will tell you that there is a honeymoon period where the dog seems pliant and willing but once they are comfortable in their surrounds they are more likely to show bad behaviours.

IMHO - if you are going to be able to get through this, you are going to need to find someone that will show YOU how to retrain this dog and "get the upper hand" so to speak. Someone else training it means that it listens to someone else.
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  #26  
Old March 25th, 2010, 11:57 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Originally Posted by LavenderRott View Post
Think long and hard before sending your dog to someone to keep for training. I have heard many more horror stories of dogs being hurt, "lost" or killed then I have heard stories of good outcomes. Also take into consideration that by sending the dog away, you are immediately removing all of the dogs regular stressers. Anyone who deals with foster dogs will tell you that there is a honeymoon period where the dog seems pliant and willing but once they are comfortable in their surrounds they are more likely to show bad behaviours.

IMHO - if you are going to be able to get through this, you are going to need to find someone that will show YOU how to retrain this dog and "get the upper hand" so to speak. Someone else training it means that it listens to someone else.
Very good point LavenderRott in regards to sending out to train. Personally, I would never do it myself based on the exact same reasons that you list. Another great point is that the dog will respond with the person doing the training...and old behaviours will arise again once the leash is passed and the person owning the dog who may not be 'equipped' to reinforce the training that was given.

Indeed - there is a honeymoon period. Usually it is 2 weeks and then little things start to creep up. For those that have dog experience, know how to deal with them and will correct accordingly should they arise.

I feel the despiration in this thread.
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  #27  
Old March 25th, 2010, 12:22 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Originally Posted by Dog Dancer View Post
Babymomma I agree PTS may be best, but it would be a very very hard decision. BenMax had success with having a rescue work with her aggressive beastie and perhaps with the right help from the right rescue this dog could be saved. Just throwing it out there as an option as well, but strongly suggest she get input from BenMax or Luckypenny for this.
Like you Dog Dancer, I am curious as to what LuckyPenny has to say or add.

I value her opinion and suggestions. (I have actually learned alot from her..as stubborn as I am).
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  #28  
Old March 25th, 2010, 01:09 PM
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14+kitties 14+kitties is offline
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LP would most certainly be my choice of people to listen to as well. She has had success with a lot of dogs in her voyage. She's a good egg!!
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  #29  
Old March 25th, 2010, 01:11 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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Lp posted right at the beginning of the thread ladies..And i agree i'd rather listen to someone with a ton of experience than someone with little or none.
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  #30  
Old March 25th, 2010, 01:14 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
Lp posted right at the beginning of the thread ladies..And i agree i'd rather listen to someone with a ton of experience than someone with little or none.
Oh lordy she did!!! How did I miss that..and she offered to find help which I know she will.
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