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Old March 21st, 2011, 04:33 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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Ok, I'll admit, I'm dog food dumb.

Hey...
Brief background...I have a 4 month old puppy(He was born Nov 12), he's a papillon/Jack Russell terrier.
Right now he's on Nutrience...as that is what he was on, so I kept him on it.
Now I want to start thinking of what I can switch him to....a healthier brand. Altho a few co-workers of mine say Nutrience is good for him, good for puppies in general.
So it's confusing...I have my mom saying Puppy Chow, coworkers saying keep him on nutrience...and my bf saying it's all the same...and the pet store by my place(they sell just the supplies, not pets) saying their brands are best...like taste of the wild(lady's number one choice), and a few others...
So ya...for a small breed puppy, what would you guys recommend??
I also suspect he could possibly have a weak stomach, as just giving him puppy chow chewy treats makes his stool soft..but not runny, just uhhhh gouey for lack of better word...(I give him the treats to train him to his pads...and cause he likes them).
So I guess I'll ask as well...what are good treats for a small breed puppy?

Sorry if I sound super dumb here...but the last time I dealt with/was responsible for a puppy was nearly 16 yrs ago(My mom's dog Trixie who is a lhasa apso/poodle will be 16 in sept).
Angie
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  #2  
Old March 21st, 2011, 05:06 PM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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No question is dumb. Dumb is when you have a question but don't ask it due to believing the risk of ridicule is more important than finding valuable information.

I am not a personal fan of Nutrience. Here is my recommendation:

Go with a grain-free, gluten-free, soy-free, render-free, artificial-preservative-free food. Protein should be 25-30% and fat 10% less than protein, give or take. Omega values aren't as important as the ratio, which should be 2:1 to 5:1, NOT 10 times as much O6 as O3 like you'll find in the cheaper brands. Go Canadian (safety of ingredients and reliable supply in case of border issues).

Many of these foods also have various added fruits and vegetables and herbs and omega fatty acids, but these additives will not make a low quality food high quality. Putting gravy on a flake of hay won't turn it into a baked potato.

In Edmonton, you will find the best selection at little neighbourhood supply stores, as well as the G&E, not usually at the major chain pet stores. You will also find better advice at smaller stores where the owners and a couple longterm employees take the time to get to know what is on their shelves, rather than relying on manufacturer visits and teenagers on their first job.

Expect to pay much more for your new food than you are currently paying for the Nutrience. First, you have a small dog who doesn't eat much anyway. Second, given a diet which suits your dog's digestive system better will save you vet visits.

The best treat would be the one of the same flavour and brand to the regular food you give. Also, if you are feeding meals, which you should, rather than offering a bowl of food available at all times, the right food itself can be used as nice-sized training treats.

I have small dogs and one medium, and am feeding Now! (petcurean) with excellent success all around, including my sensitive stomach "big" dog.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:11 PM
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You may also want to look into starting your pup on a raw diet. It really is the equivalent to humans on a fresh fruit/veggie/meat diet as opposed to over-processed one. It is chemical free, so much better for your pup.

Also, it will keep you dog hydrated as he will be getting his fluids as nature intended.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:16 PM
reanne reanne is offline
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Raw or a high quality kibble will be better than the Nutrience. Puppy Chow is not a good idea, and they are not all the same as your bf says. I agree with the above comments. I feed Acana to mine and they are doing well on it. It is from the same company as Orijen but a bit different formulation; both are made in Canada and all ingredients sourced in Canada. Very nice food.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:37 PM
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Last year I was fostering a Papillon/Min Pin puppy....when he started eating solids I went with "NOW" puppy food and also Wellness canned puppy food (I didn't mix them together).....he fared quite well with no tummy issues.
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  #6  
Old March 21st, 2011, 05:41 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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My mom "people food" feeds her dog...has for years...but more out of having to, then wanting to(Trixie will NOT eat dry dog food, and doesn't like wet dog food)...so mom just buys an extra steak, pork chop, veggies(Trixie LOVES veggies) etc, and Trixie eats when they do...she shares of "Daddy's" plate...as that is the ONLY way she'll eat! (When my dad was in the hospital for 5 days Trixie would NOT eat at all!...only a bite here, or there).
But that is the ONE thing my bf says is a NO GO...he was brought up in the way that dogs do NOT get people food(to him it's just a dog....altho he loves Thor, don't get me wrong, but to him he's just a pet...know what I mean?)
Altho, bf did put a kitchen table chair in our bedroom under the window, so Tucker(one of our cats) could jump up easier...cause "She was having trouble....she likes the window, so I put that chair there"....hehe. He's whipped and doesn't even know it.
So raw feeding or such isn't an choice right now...I'll work on the bf about that tho...
But ya...maybe I'll go back to the pet store by my place(it's a small store, locally owned, and the lady/owner seems to know what she's talking about) and see what's what.
I don't mind paying more, I already pay $25 for Taste of the Wild for my cats...which is the only brand besides Iams that they'll eat.(Well they'll eat whiskas...but I'm not a fan of that one). That's one thing my mom always told me "You'd pay more to feed yourself properly, so therefore you should be willing to do the same for your pet"....and I do.
I am the penny pincher, I'll admit that, if I can cut costs, I do...but I NEVER do on my pets food and such...their health is WAY to important to play with.
So would Taste of the Wild be a good brand then for him?
Do they even have one formulated for a small breed?(I only talked casually with the lady, before I even got Thor, when I was just curiously researching things on puppies when I was in there getting my cat food).
Or would NOW! be a better brand? (lady carries both if I remember correctly)...
Man, buying my food is easier then buying my pets' food...haha
As to the feed time....I'll admit, I'm a free feeder. His food is always down. Only because he's what I call a picker....aka, he goes has a couple peices...then plays...then goes back, has a few peices....etc. He only gets 1.5-2 cups a day tho....as was his routine before I got him(he use to get 3/4 a cup at 8am, and again at 5pm) So he is NOT over eating...he just eats slow is all....is that ok? Or should I force him to eat it all at once? I tried that when I first got him, and he wouldn't...so I caved and left it down, cause I felt like I was straving him...as he'd only have a few bites in that 30-60 min it was down before I'd put it up.
I knew puppies could be confusing...but wow...puppy food is way more confusing then when I was trying to figure out cat food! lol
I thank you all for your input tho! It helps so much!
I just want him healthy, and I thank you for helping me figure out the best way to do that for him.
Angie
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:45 PM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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When you start the new food, do it slowly over about a week (longer is fine, too). First day mix a small part of the new food with mostly old. Every day more of the new food, less of the old until you are at 100% new. Even when switching from a poorer quality food to a better one, you want to give your puppy the time to adjust. Different foods place different demands on the digestive system, and you already know that your puppy's system is a bit delicate.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:55 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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Thor'sPet,,,the others are absolutely right about feeding your little one either a high quality kibble such as Orijjen or Acana,,etc or Raw,,even homecooked is better than alot of the off the shel..Explain to your Bf that to him it may be just a pet but the money he is saving by feeding a lower quality food isn't going to cover even half of the medical issues you could end up with in the future due to the same foods. www.dogfoodanalysis.com go to this site and you will see ratings and reviews on a large percentage of dog foods. Oh and since no one else has mentioned it,,,there is a fee for our advice,,i think 2-3 puppy pictures should about cover it..

Last edited by Ford; March 28th, 2011 at 07:16 PM.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:59 PM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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Your dog sounded pretty small... my 30-35 pound dog only eats 1.5 cups a day! Dogs who will not eat to the point of starving themselves are extremely rare. However, convincing your mom not to spoil her baby is another matter altogether. You can see if your neighbourhood store sells a raw diet, if you are interested in going that way. Table food is another matter altogether, and home-made diets have to be very carefully balanced or they may be nutritionally deficient.

Free-feeding keeps fat dogs fat and skinny dogs skinny. Meal feeding allows you to be in control and also to monitor your dog's health. A poor appetite is often the first sign of illness or stress in a dog, and meal-feeding allows you to easily assess whether your dog is eating the same amount as usual, eating at the same speed as usual, etc. A small-breed adult should be fed twice a day, a 4-months puppy preferable 3 times, if your schedule will allow it. He will get used to eating meals. Measure out a one-meal portion and expect him to eat it all. Meal size depends very much on the individual dog's metabolism and energy level.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 05:59 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamIam View Post
When you start the new food, do it slowly over about a week (longer is fine, too). First day mix a small part of the new food with mostly old. Every day more of the new food, less of the old until you are at 100% new. Even when switching from a poorer quality food to a better one, you want to give your puppy the time to adjust. Different foods place different demands on the digestive system, and you already know that your puppy's system is a bit delicate.
Yup that's the one thing my mom stressed big time...lol
Hense why I'm asking now, while I still have half the bag of Nutrience left...cuz I'll admit, a week ago(had Thor for almost 2 weeks now) I fed him a edible bone treat that tasted like bacon apparently...he LOVED it...but god...for 2 days after, he had me super scared. I even called the vet in a panic...his movements became like water...and at one point had a few drops of blood...vet and I talked, and then realised it was the treat...so he told me to watch, and if his movement didn't get more solid soon, so bring him in...within 48 hrs he was up to "qouey"...and has gotten more solid since....not fully solid...but getting there.
So ya...no more of that kind of thing...scared me half to death!
I have only had him 2 weeks, but I love him to death....so I just hope we can transfer him to a new and better food without freaking me out to much! lol...cause I'll admit, i tend to over analyze things to much and worry to much sometimes...so this outta be fun..haha
Angie
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Old March 21st, 2011, 06:01 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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incase something like that occurs again,,you can feed the little one abit of raw pumpkin,,,pure not the pie filling,,it will help firm his poop back up.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 06:10 PM
Mirela Mirela is offline
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Taste of the Wild is not a bad dog food; here is their website with the different formulae and ingredients:
http://www.tasteofthewildpetfood.com/products/

Also, I don't think that you really need to worry about "small dog" foods - feed your puppy according to weight and activity levels and he should be fine.
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Old March 21st, 2011, 06:18 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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Originally Posted by SamIam View Post
Your dog sounded pretty small... my 30-35 pound dog only eats 1.5 cups a day! Dogs who will not eat to the point of starving themselves are extremely rare. However, convincing your mom not to spoil her baby is another matter altogether. You can see if your neighbourhood store sells a raw diet, if you are interested in going that way. Table food is another matter altogether, and home-made diets have to be very carefully balanced or they may be nutritionally deficient.

Free-feeding keeps fat dogs fat and skinny dogs skinny. Meal feeding allows you to be in control and also to monitor your dog's health. A poor appetite is often the first sign of illness or stress in a dog, and meal-feeding allows you to easily assess whether your dog is eating the same amount as usual, eating at the same speed as usual, etc. A small-breed adult should be fed twice a day, a 4-months puppy preferable 3 times, if your schedule will allow it. He will get used to eating meals. Measure out a one-meal portion and expect him to eat it all. Meal size depends very much on the individual dog's metabolism and energy level.
Thor at his vet appointment last week weighed in at 4lbs 6 oz. He's just a little guy.
I have a cat dish, that holds about 2 cups, and I essentially have to fill it about every 36-48 hrs. Basically I'll fill it in the morning the one day and then next night will have to fill it again...It's just went I did it by feeding times, he'd only eat like 10-20 kibble bites then I'd have to leave for work...or an hr or so would go by so I'd put it up, then he'd go to where it was, look every where for it, then look at me and whine...lol...and I'll admit, I'm a sucker to that whine...which is also how he got it so he now sleeps with us at night(he'd whine and literally howl so hard that he'd mess himself, ugh..lol)....
So I just started leaving his food down about a week ago...and ya, he eats his bowl in about 36 to 48 hrs, which is approx 2-2.5 cups of food. I don't actually measure, altho thinking I should???
Water is always down as well.

And ya, my mom's dog is spoilt....lol...hense why when she gives me advise, I second guess it. Just to be safe....as she spoils instead of does what may be best...altho Trixie is now 16 and has never had ANY medical issues besides losing her eye sight(which is common for her breed)...so she's doing something right I guess!
But ya...thanks so much for all the info, this is helping more then I can say!
Angie
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Old March 21st, 2011, 06:19 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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Pics of the little one in question...
Thor...




Angie
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Old March 21st, 2011, 06:54 PM
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Thor'sPet,,,the others are absolutely right about feeding your little one either a high quality kibble such as Orijjen or Acana,,etc or Raw,,even homecooked is better than alot of the off the shelf ...Explain to your Bf that to him it may be just a pet but the money he is saving by feeding a lower quality food isn't going to cover even half of the medical issues you could end up with in the future due to the same foods. www.dogfoodanalysis.com go to this site and you will see ratings and reviews on a large percentage of dog foods. Oh and since no one else has mentioned it,,,there is a fee for our advice,,i think 2-3 puppy pictures should about cover it..
Just to add to this, you will often find that, although the upfront cost of high quality food tends to be higher, it is offset by needing to feed less per meal, making the true out of pocket costs essentially the same (or in some cases lower).

We've been feeding our dogs Canidae for several years. Our 45 lb does fantastic on 2 level cups per day (1 per meal), our 20 lb is on half that. On lower quality foods, they would need 2 to 3 times the quantity for the same nutritional intake (which would also lead to larger piles of crap to pick up!).

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Old March 21st, 2011, 07:33 PM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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On lower quality foods, they would need 2 to 3 times the quantity for the same nutritional intake (which would also lead to larger piles of crap to pick up!).
You will find with the better food that you will go from about 1 cup plus per day to around 1/2 cup per day. Yes, I do think you should measure out his food, offer one meal's worth at a time, and expect him to empty the bowl in 1-20 minutes. In addition to knowing how his appetite is, and feeding according to a healthy not-too-thin not-too-fat body condition, feeding on a schedule will help you with housetraining.

Aww... What a cutie! By looks he could pass for full jack!
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Old March 21st, 2011, 08:07 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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Aww... What a cutie! By looks he could pass for full jack!
That he could eh...lol
His father was the jack...his mom the papillon.
I am/was kinda hoping he'd get the butterfly ears from his mom....but alas I don't think that'll happen.
But I love the look of jacks, so it's all good....he's just my cute little boy...

So bf and I talked...we're gonna start him on feeding times...feed times will be 10am(usually I work at 1...so I'm out the door by noon)...and at 7pm. As my bf is home by 5 the latest...so he'd do the night feeding.
So does that sound ok?
10 and 7 is spaced right, or should it be closer? Farther?
Then we agreed that we'd leave the food down for an hr for now. Then shorten to 45 min, then 30 min...and hopefully by then he'll know eat it all...lol...reason we agreed to easily to timed feedings....frankly, the crap.lol....Thor poops WAY to much...easily 10-15 times a day! 90% on the pad tho, so I'll give him that, but it's the 10% that is like ugh ewwww gross...lol
But ya...does that sound good.....3/4 of a cup for now to see what he'll actually eat, at 10am, and 7pm?
Angie
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Old March 21st, 2011, 08:19 PM
SamIam SamIam is offline
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Yes. That sounds like it is what will fit best with your schedule. So you'll be measuring 3/8 cup am and 3/8 cup pm. Try to get in a walk before you go to work, as exercise helps poopies come ;P
Some dogs go immediately after a meal, some a half hour later or longer, you'll get to know where he's at and adjust the pre-work mealtime if you need to.
It's not exactly one poop per meal, but between meal feeding and getting him on a good food, you won't see anywhere near 10-15!
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Old March 21st, 2011, 09:06 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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Was thinking 3/4 each feeding...so 1.5 cups a day...for now, to see exactly what his intake is....cause he does "nibble" alot right now, as he is a VERY active dog...his routine is usually run around crazy for an hr in the morning(around 10ish), then sleep from noon to about 4ish(as he does on my days off, and bf's days off...so we're guessing when we're not home it's the same)...then up and playing again by 6ish, til like 11pm. Then bedtime with us..and he usually only gets up once thru the night and goes potty by himself on the pad. Not sure on the time tho, as I'm usually still sleeping...lol Sometimes tho, he'll get up at 7am when the bf is leaving for work, to playing with him for that 20-30 min.
As to walking....I take him for 30-60 min walks when we're above 0. Anything below, even if it's only 5 below, all Thor does is stalk my feet, sit on them when I stop, and whine/howl at me....while shaking so bad.
He's a big baby...lol...but I do try to get him out as much as possible...can't wait for spring, then I can take him on my 2-3 hr walks with me...hense why I got a jack/papillon...I want that energy, so he'll keep up with my walk addiction.
But ya...figure 3/4 in the am and 3/4 in the pm...and as we go, reevalute that to match his appetite and such as we go.
He tend to poop about 20-30 min after eating...unless you try to leave him soon after eating, cause then he'll poop himself howling so hard...hense why 10am will work, there is 2 hrs for it to work it's way thru...so no pooping himself...altho he hasn't done that, since we stopped locking him in the bathroom...we now just have shelves up(those metal cubes shelf thingys) set up to block him into the living/dining area...still adequate space but stops the "hidding" his "surprises" on us...
Which also helps his separation anxiety to....he doesn't howl like he use to...thankfully...was worried neighbours would complain!
Then wednesday(my next day off) I'll go to the pet store by my place and see about a new food...so i can slowly start changing him...as well as pumpkin...as his stool still isn't as firm as I'd like...and it's TOTALLY discusted to try to pick it up off the rug....*gags* lol
But ya...thanks again!
Angie
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Old March 22nd, 2011, 11:11 PM
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What a little cutie your boy is.

I would suggest your try a "no grain" brand of kibble.
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Old March 28th, 2011, 03:04 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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Ok...
So as of 2 days ago I bought him Taste of the Wild.(which I'm switching him slowly right now) Upon talkin to the lady at the pet store by me(just a small store that sells just the supplies for pets, not pets themselves) food came down to two kinds....Taste of the Wild and Acana.
Upon discussion I chose the Taste of the Wild for the simple fact that in a couple months I won't have to switch him again off puppy food, as I was told Taste of the wild is for all stages, as well as if he eats the cat food, or the cats eat his, it won't hurt either.(as the cats are on Taste of the Wild as well) As it's made essentially the same. Which'll be nice...cause then maybe I'll be able to get my cat food off my table.(where I have it for now, so I can monitor Thor's eating)...
From the measuring, Thor now eats approx 3/4 of a cup per day.
I scoop a cup into his dish in the morning at 9am, and place it down. He gets to eat until 9:30-10:00(depends when i'm leaving the house)...then it's placed up. Then he gets it back at approx 4:30-5:00pm(depends on when the bf gets home)...has it for about 30-60 min. Then it's taken away again. Then I'll put it back down around 10pm for approx 15-30 min, so he can have food before bed. As the first night when I didn't, he didn't do well, he was hungry. So feeding him before bed like that, allows him to sleep without whining all night.(He whined and whined the first night until I gave him food).
But ya...does this sound ok?
And is Taste of the Wild a good food? Also, is it good for puppies that are 4.5 months old?
Thanks,
Angie
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Old March 28th, 2011, 03:28 PM
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I use taste of the wild and my two are doing great with it. Keep an eye on Thor and if he has runny poops he could be getting too much food. I know it sounds odd, but if you are feeding him too much he will get soft stools. A slow reduction in the volume will correct that. Even a good food can do this. And yes, pure pumpkin is wonderful so long as you don't try to use it to cover up a medical issue that needs vet treatment. If you know you dog ate something funny and gets the runs then a tsp of pure pumpkin twice a day will do wonders. I always have it in my cupboards, but haven't had to use it since buying Taste of the Wild. Also, as you see already, you don't need to use nearly so much food. Bonus. You will find Thor's schedule easily and be able to feed and potty him with less stress in no time at all. Good luck and he sure is a cutie!
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Old March 28th, 2011, 03:28 PM
Mirela Mirela is offline
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Your feeding schedule looks fine to me - he's a puppy and needs to eat more often than an adult dog. In time he might be OK with two meals a day but for now I don't see a problem with three.
AFAIK ToTW is a good food for dogs - I have not looked at the cat food variety so I can't comment on it or if you could feed both the puppy and the cat same food. Same brand - why not? ; same food - I don't know - hopefully some who has both dogs and cats will chime in on this.
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Old March 28th, 2011, 03:50 PM
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as well as if he eats the cat food, or the cats eat his, it won't hurt either.(as the cats are on Taste of the Wild as well) As it's made essentially the same.
Not true. There isn't enough taurine in the canine versions, so while it wouldn't be a big deal if your dog ate the cat food, there could be health repurcussions for your cats if they regularly ate the dog food.

I know this thread is about dog food, but I just want to point you in the direction of an excellent website on the topic of feline nutrition (and why wet food for cats is essential. Dry food, not a good idea.) www.catinfo.org
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Old March 28th, 2011, 04:20 PM
Thor's Pet Thor's Pet is offline
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Keep an eye on Thor and if he has runny poops he could be getting too much food.
THAT'S WHY!!!???
See, Thor has had "runny" poop for about 1.5 weeks now...everything else is still normal with him...high energy, great appetite, etc...but his stool has gotten SUPER soft/runny.
I tried pumpkin...it firmed it up, then he went runnyish again, still firmish, but it still doesn't hold it's form...
Hmmmm....think I might cut his food intact down some more to see....I was blaming the reoccurance of the runny poop after the pumpkin to the fact I'm switching foods...but maybe it's more due to the fact that he's over eating???
Thanks for that info!
Cause runny poop sucks even move when he misses the pad!!! lol
Angie
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  #26  
Old March 28th, 2011, 04:27 PM
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Dog Dancer Dog Dancer is offline
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Well it could be the problem. I found that out the hard way also. I find myself that I rarely feed my dogs as much as the bags of food suggest. It's a starting point, but rarely the end amount. Mind you, my two are older and not so active. That said, even with a great dog food, if your dog gets too much it can cause soft stools. So cut him back a little bit at each meal. If he's whining and crying like he did at night when he was hungry then you may have gone too far, but if he's eating three times a day, and he's so tiny, he really won't need too much of a quality food. Don't forget to factor in any treats you give him also. If he gets lots of cookies/treats you need to reduce kibble. Oh, and it was someone on this site many years ago that clued me into this.
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  #27  
Old March 28th, 2011, 06:07 PM
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Marty11 Marty11 is offline
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Rookie my manchester had the runs for 2 weeks at least on grain free, it will get better soon,
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  #28  
Old March 28th, 2011, 10:06 PM
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Dee-O-Gee Dee-O-Gee is offline
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Thor is absolutely--ADORABLE!

Gotta love them there skineez eh?

I'm not going to try and convince you onto which brand or method is best suited as I use a certain brand that works well for my gang and to be perfectly honest...I'm not that edge-u-ma-cated on this particular subject.

What I would highly recommend though, is if and when you decide to switch, use the ratio below. Especially if Thor has a sensitive tummy.

Day 1- 3 75% old 25% new
Day 4- 6 50% old 50% new
Day 7-10 25% old 75% new
Day 11 100% new

When I switched our guys 3 years ago, this helped with the new introduction.
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  #29  
Old March 29th, 2011, 10:24 AM
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Okay, so this morning I was paying attention to feeding my dogs, who eat the Taste of the Wild food. I always put the food into a canister, so I don't have the feeding instructions anymore, but both dogs weight between 60 and 70 lbs, and each gets approximately 1/2 cup in the am and 1/2 cup at night. On top of that I give them some cooked up chicken livers or hamburger meat because they love it. Then they get several dog cookies through the day, but mostly after dinner at night. So that's why I warn you about the quantity you feed, versus what the bag says. I think I'm feeding about half what the bag recommends if memory serves me right, but my two are 10 and 13 years old and fairly sedate so they don't need tons of energy food. Neither one is underweight or overweight (although the Lab would be if she had a choice ).
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  #30  
Old March 29th, 2011, 10:35 AM
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Marty11 Marty11 is offline
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My terriers weigh just under 30 lbs. They each get 1/3 Acana in the morning and 1/3 at night. I cut them back from 1/2 twice day. I add in couple spoons of canned or any leftover meat (not fat) that I have.
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