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Old February 19th, 2011, 01:48 PM
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Exclamation What to say to rescue friend who won't spay preg dog?

Hey guys.. I'm in a bit of a pickle here. My wonderful friend is running her own rescue group now and mostly works with pits. Well, she pulled a dog from death row that was going to be PTS and the dog may be preg.

I asked her if she wanted me to get her squeezed in with a vet that will spay her ASAP, and she said no she is going to be letting the dog have the puppies (if she is pregnant) because she doesn't agree with that.

I really don't know what to do. I told her some information and personal experiences about just letting a random dog have puppies, but she disagreed and said she has seen dogs 'become depressed from abortions' and the dogs are never the same.

I know most of you on here are very pro s/n so that's why I need your help. I don't know if I should just back down what. She's a great person and really helps dogs but I just don't understand how people who KNOW what happens to dogs, especially pits, in shelters could purposely allow a dog to have puppies?? Especially since they don't even know if the dog is even pregnant? I don't know if she is just planning to wait and see if the dog has puppies in the foster home or if she is going to waste a ton of money on tests or what?


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Old February 19th, 2011, 01:55 PM
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Could you send her some stats on PB's euth rates or even the numbers of dogs being put down because of no homes? If she is in rescue she should know those numbers anyway.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
Could you send her some stats on PB's euth rates or even the numbers of dogs being put down because of no homes? If she is in rescue she should know those numbers anyway.
Yeah, but she said that rescue should count for the unborn too... I really don't know what to do. She works at a county shelter too where loads of pits are put down each year. That's what I don't understand. And also the fact we have NO history on the mom dog let alone what the hell the dad could possibly be. I mean I see her point but I don't really.. get it...

And I feel like an ass because I'm the only one who said anything and all the other people are like YAY SAVE TEH BABBIEEZZ and I'm like.. really people? REALLY?
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:03 PM
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Very strange. I hope if the girl is pregnant she manages to find responsible homes for all of the puppies. I guess that's all you can ask.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:16 PM
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Yeah I mean I'm sure she will, but that's sort of beside the point.. I mean that's an extra let's say, 4-8 pups she now has to spend the money on for shots, food, vet care etc.. instead of just spending the money to spay this poor dog... it's not exactly like her group is swimming in money. She's my age too btw. So I mean ethically I really don't even want to help her group now, because this is bothering me sooo much.. and she's a really good friend but this is really something that will bother me to no end. I was going to do a fundraiser for her, now that I'm out of work and have time to do it, but I really can't be associated with that kind of stuff.

I went BALLISTIC on some other group already over this kind of crap. The group was run by an EXTREMELY religious (Christian) leader who would not spay/neuter because she didn't believe in birth control and even admitted once that she kept some kitty littermates together for too long and they mated and she purposely let the female become pregnant and have the babies. I flipped on them and put out a DNA on them and practically put them out of business.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:17 PM
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Well, I guess she isn't into rescue for the good of dogs . Anybody who is knows there shouldn't be any more added in the world right now.

Good luck, Kathryn. I hope you can get her to come to her senses
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:22 PM
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Would if be wrong to just send her a PM on facebook with some articles or something? If you guys know of any good ones let me know I mean I already somewhat debated with her but she's even posting on the rescues website about saving the pregnant dog and people are cheering it on.. which like I said makes no sense....
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:24 PM
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I went BALLISTIC on some other group already over this kind of crap. The group was run by an EXTREMELY religious (Christian) leader who would not spay/neuter because she didn't believe in birth control and even admitted once that she kept some kitty littermates together for too long and they mated and she purposely let the female become pregnant and have the babies. I flipped on them and put out a DNA on them and practically put them out of business.
I don't get these groups that claim to be about rescue that will not s/n. IMO what's the point if you are just going to continue to be part of the overpopulation issue?
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:30 PM
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Just throwing it out there, any of you want to take a whack at it? Her group has a public FB page with a ton of people on it I can PM you the link if anyone wants to say something (nicely). Because I don't know what the hell to do.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:36 PM
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I'm heading to work now. Maybe someone else would be willing to. If not I'll see what I can find after I get home.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:47 PM
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Thanks. I'll probably be gone most of tonight as well and have work tomorrow, but I really do need to speak up about this. I mean I feel bad but at the same time I mean, it IS something to be upset about. It's not like she doesn't know how many dogs are already PTS, especially pits, and she's willing to waste all this time and energy to let this dog have random mutt puppies with no history on her... makes no sense to me She said she feels people would be FURIOUS if they knew shelters spay preg animals all the time.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:49 PM
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I don't know of anyone in rescue who are against abortion. Unfortunately , your friend lacks of rescue experience

You can tell her how much it would cost , if anything bad happens. If the dog needs an emergency c-section , I can tell you that , this was about $1800.00 , 4 years ago. So now , it's probably in the $2000.00 and +. Then , let's say the mother dog isn't taking care of the pups , how is she going to find foster homes to take care of the pups 24/7 ? Then to get vet care for the pups , get them spayed & neutered before adoption etc ....

I'm sorry you have to deal with this , I sure hope this friend will listen to you.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
She said she feels people would be FURIOUS if they knew shelters spay preg animals all the time.
Then tell her : "are you in it to please people or to save dogs ?"

also , what if the male dog that got this dog preggo , is much larger , pups will die and , mom could too.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 02:58 PM
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This is her post on FB about the dog from about a week ago

Friend- I will pull her through my rescue! We have enough funds already to get everybody up to date on vaccines and possibly even spayed/neutered when they're ready. That aspect is covered! Just need a place for momma to be in rest while having her babies!
February 14 at 10:30am · Like · 1 person


Me- Are you pulling her -----? I can see about getting in for an emergency spay and if you need sponsorship for that I know a group that may help if she is coming up to this area if it's not already too late
February 14 at 12:16pm · Like


Friend- No, I am not definitely pulling her. I need a foster home for her, first. Also, I don't agree with abortion if that's what you mean by the emergency spay (sorry).
February 14 at 2:53pm · Like


Me- Just curious, why not? Obviously you of all people know how many puppies are already killed in shelters.. not to mention the high rate of complications with dog pregnancies. Can't even count how many dogs/cats I saw die or nearly die from pregnancies gone wrong, from puppies/kittens getting stuck, false pregnancies turning out to actually pyometras and I saw a dog that developed mastitis right after giving birth and had to get a full mastectomy and all 10 puppies had to be bottle fed. And another time we had a cat come in where all the kittens died in the uterus at full term and the cat was septic and practically dead when we had to do an emergency spay.

I guess I just see the lesser of the two evils as to spay now rather than deal with all the complications later, plus however many homes will be lost now for puppies already waiting for homes in foster homes or kill shelters because more puppies just came into the world *shrug*. Definitely was one of the harder things to have to talk to clients about when working at AWA..
February 14 at 2:59pm · Like



Friend- First, it's a moral issue -- I am a person who values life very much. I am 100% for spaying/neutering, but don't agree that humans have the right to abort puppies from a perfectly healthy dog. I may be able to "accept" an abortion if the mom is sickly or say the vet detected a dead baby inside the mom... But, those are the only two reasons I can think of.

Second, I don't agree with it because I have seen so many dogs suffer traumatically from an abortion. They become depressed, they can become moody, aggressive... etc. It messes with their hormones very badly. I especially disagree with late term abortions because that affects the dogs tremendously worse... Most vets don't even give the dog any medication to control their hormones.

There are complications with everything... anesthesia can be risky. Dogs and cats have died from being spayed and neutered and that's a pretty basic procedure.

I respect your opinion and don't think you are wrong for your belief, so I hope you know that. You are a great friend!
February 14 at 3:12pm · Like


Me- I guess that's true, which is why it bothered me at first, but then again when I'm seeing perfectly healthy and adoptable animals already being killed, it's just in good faith I can't feel responsible for allowing anymore animals to be brought into this already crappy world where cats and dogs are being killed left and right

I dunno, I've never seen any effects afterwards. I've been there for fair amount (unfortunately) and have even brought in pregnant animals for other people who couldn't even afford to care for one pet let alone a litter.. None of them have ever mentioned any long time psychological effects, but I suppose with the hormones it is possible to screw things up. I've never seen a pregnant animal die under anesthesia actually now that I think about it, but it deff. does increase some risks.

Just a fair warning though, ALOT of shelters and rescues around here would really disagree with you and get really pissed off if you make it noted through your group that you don't believe in pregnant spaying.. I myself had to flip out on a few people before because they had unaltered brother and sister animals together and wouldn't fix them because they thought the girl *might* already be pregnant >_< some people around here won't be quite so tolerant, especially kill shelters where their freezers are already packed with dead puppies and kittens.
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February 14 at 3:19pm · Like


Friend- Hey people already don't support me because all I basically rescue is Pit Bulls. Pit Bulls are my main passion, but I love all dogs and will rescue any dog in need, so I want people to know that. Rescue is about saving dogs not killing them, and I hope that would include alive, but unborn pups, too. That's what rescue is about to me. The shelter where the pregnant dog is at, mustn't see a problem with her giving birth because they didn't abort her pups. A lot of people would be furious to hear of a shelter aborting pups. It's a very sensitive issue. I don't openly announce my personal believes or at least try not to necessarily make my believes the same for my rescue organization because it's not about me... it's about the animals. I do understand exactly what you're saying though, and agree, but disagree at the same time, if that makes sense.
February 14 at 3:32pm · Like


Me- i guess ive just seen a ton of bad things from working in spay neuter so long. other people would prob agree if theyve seen some of the disgusting/horrifying things that have come from irresponsible breeding. suppose it just depends on your personal experiences.
February 14 at 3:44pm · Like


Friend- Yeah, that is very true. I've seen a lot of bad from abortions -- you've seen a lot of good from abortions.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 03:10 PM
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Given the strength of her convictions, based on the FB post, I'd say it's unlikely that anything any of us says will change her opinion.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 03:20 PM
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True.. I mean.. she's a smart person. This isn't some stupid random chick, she's a good friend of mine.. works at a kill shelter and is fairly intelligent... I never knew she thought this way and it took me back ALOT. She sees dogs PTS at her work all the time. I guess her logic is since the dog will be in her rescue the puppies aren't going to be at risk for being PTS so why bother 'killing them' if they are all going to get good homes??

I see that with a fair amount of people but I tried to tell her okay, those ones will get god homes fine.. but then thats X amount of homes that won't be open now for pups who are already waiting in shelters, possibly on death row.
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Old February 19th, 2011, 03:39 PM
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Can she take the dog to a vet and find out if she is pregnant first? if she's not then get her spayed right away?
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Old February 19th, 2011, 06:40 PM
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I've seen this countless times with shelters and volunteers who get involved with dogs or cats that are discovered to be pregnant. Once the cat is out of the bag so to speak then they find it difficult to make the decision to spay. Generally, what is suggested is that an xray be done. If there are no visible vertebrae on xray then it is still safe to go ahead with a spay with no real risk to mom and the pups are not viable so the moral aspect is diminished. But emotions are a funny thing and sometimes folks can't see the forest for the trees. I would suggest that if you wish to remain friends with this person then you let it rest. I've seen folks end up hating each other over these type of things. Also, not every vet will agree to spay on pregnancy... some have an aversion to it due to necessities that may arise upon removing the uterus... Just some thoughts.....
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Old February 19th, 2011, 06:45 PM
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I've seen this countless times with shelters and volunteers who get involved with dogs or cats that are discovered to be pregnant. Once the cat is out of the bag so to speak then they find it difficult to make the decision to spay. Generally, what is suggested is that an xray be done. If there are no visible vertebrae on xray then it is still safe to go ahead with a spay with no real risk to mom and the pups are not viable so the moral aspect is diminished. But emotions are a funny thing and sometimes folks can't see the forest for the trees. I would suggest that if you wish to remain friends with this person then you let it rest. I've seen folks end up hating each other over these type of things. Also, not every vet will agree to spay on pregnancy... some have an aversion to it due to necessities that may arise upon removing the uterus... Just some thoughts.....
Yeah, that's what I mean, but at the same time this pisses me off as much as a BYB would.

The second argument isn't totally valid around here though, because we have several dozen low cost spay/neuter clinics in the area that would absolutely do a spay. I used to be a tech at one and that's why I offered to get her squeezed in because I probably could have gotten it done for her for like $50. But instead of that she's going to spend thousands of dollars on more medical tests and 'saving' these puppies. And I told her that some symptoms of pregnancy in animals turn out to be bad bad things that the animals can die from but she didn't care
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Old February 19th, 2011, 08:12 PM
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Yeah, that's what I mean, but at the same time this pisses me off as much as a BYB would.

The second argument isn't totally valid around here though, because we have several dozen low cost spay/neuter clinics in the area that would absolutely do a spay. I used to be a tech at one and that's why I offered to get her squeezed in because I probably could have gotten it done for her for like $50. But instead of that she's going to spend thousands of dollars on more medical tests and 'saving' these puppies. And I told her that some symptoms of pregnancy in animals turn out to be bad bad things that the animals can die from but she didn't care
well all you can do is council yourself and keep an eye really. Sounds like no matter what you say or anyone else does that this person is going to do as they please. Hopefully it is only a pregnancy and nothing more serious that will endanger this gal's life by waiting and seeing so to speak. Folks are strange in their thought processes when it comes to animals.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 07:45 AM
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This is not someone who is putting a dog first, nor thinking realistically long term for the unborn. In my opinion, she is applying her own convictions of abortion of humans rather than sticking to the animal issue and the RESPONSIBLE decision to abort an already doomed 'type' of dog(s).
She is selfish and is not someone I would consider a 'rescuer'. She is damning the unborn to an uncertain life.

She needs to rethink her decision but I am afraid that you nor any of us may not have the power to sway her.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 08:24 AM
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This is not someone who is putting a dog first, nor thinking realistically long term for the unborn. In my opinion, she is applying her own convictions of abortion of humans rather than sticking to the animal issue and the RESPONSIBLE decision to abort an already doomed 'type' of dog(s).
She is selfish and is not someone I would consider a 'rescuer'. She is damning the unborn to an uncertain life.

She needs to rethink her decision but I am afraid that you nor any of us may not have the power to sway her.
very well said. She is being very, very selfish. Unlike human babies, unwanted pups are euthanized.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 10:02 AM
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I hope she is prepared to house and raise these pups for life. To me this is borderline taking on the responsibilities of a breeder and I would hold her to the same high standards (no excuses because she didn't actually breed the dog, her choice to keep the pregnancy) as I would any breeder.

Poor choice to make imo but it's still her choice to make, and I simply hope she goes beyond and above to ensure good lives for these pups. I hope she doesn't just dump the mom and pups on a foster and be done with it. Every one of these pups that hasn't been born yet will take up the potential space and resource she could have had to save a dog that is already living and abandoned.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 10:34 AM
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All great words from the members here. Us going in and trying to change her mind is going to do diddlysquat. I did go to check out her page. Didn't see anything about a pregnant dog though. Did your conversation go on her rescue page or on her personal page?
All we can do at this point is to hope and pray the dog is not pregnant. If she doesn't produce puppies I would hope your friend would do the right thing and take her to be fixed.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 01:32 PM
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If the dog is "chunky" enough that she is visibly pregnant, the puppies may be fairly developed. I was under the impression that the farther along the puppies/kittens are, the more dangerous a spay operation becomes. In that case, I could understand your friend not wanting to take the risk of losing the mother.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 02:32 PM
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I think she may have removed the postings from the page

Well, thats the dog anyways.

I mean, I understand like you know, being wary to not want to spay a dog for medical reasons, but it's not the risk she is worried about she just doesn't want to "abort puppies for no reason".

And around here we have sooo many spay/neuter vets with so much experience that spay preggo animals all the time. Not that I'm proud of it but I've seen a fair few of practically term pregnant animals spayed, mainly because we didn't know they were term until we opened the animal up. I've never seen any major complications from it Even the one time someone brought in a 150lb great dane mix that thought she *might* be pregnant and once we finally got her open the vet realized she was term pregnant and held it well so you couldn't even see.. I think for that we weighed her after the spay and she went down about 20 pounds.

It's not like I want to go around advertising that kind of crap though, because yes it is uncomfortable to talk about, but the same people that are being taboo about "abortion" in dogs and cats are the same ones that FREAAAKKK out on BYB's, shelters that PTS animals, etc.. sooo how FREAKING hypocritical is that to bitch at everyone else but now you have a breeding dog and are just going to let it drop a litter because the subject is too taboo.
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Last edited by marko; March 3rd, 2011 at 08:51 AM.
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  #27  
Old February 20th, 2011, 03:27 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Originally Posted by ownedbycats View Post
If the dog is "chunky" enough that she is visibly pregnant, the puppies may be fairly developed. I was under the impression that the farther along the puppies/kittens are, the more dangerous a spay operation becomes. In that case, I could understand your friend not wanting to take the risk of losing the mother.
If the dog is chunky it could be worms. The only way to really find out if she is and how far along would be an x-ray.

If the dog is far along in pregnancy...the pups would have to be euthanized during the surgery. I have seen this and it is very very sad. Alot of vets do not like to do this.
It is a very upsetting topic on so many levels. Again - this is someone's fault that the dog is now in this circumstance. I have to wonder however that if this dog were a yorkie or a poodle - would we still want the pregnancy terminated? Being that she may be pitbull, (though not confirmed) it puts a different spin on this. 1 - a damned type of dog, 2 - puppies will also fall under a scrutinized breed type. So sad isn't it.
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Old February 20th, 2011, 06:10 PM
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kathryn kathryn is offline
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Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
If the dog is chunky it could be worms. The only way to really find out if she is and how far along would be an x-ray.

If the dog is far along in pregnancy...the pups would have to be euthanized during the surgery. I have seen this and it is very very sad. Alot of vets do not like to do this.
It is a very upsetting topic on so many levels. Again - this is someone's fault that the dog is now in this circumstance. I have to wonder however that if this dog were a yorkie or a poodle - would we still want the pregnancy terminated? Being that she may be pitbull, (though not confirmed) it puts a different spin on this. 1 - a damned type of dog, 2 - puppies will also fall under a scrutinized breed type. So sad isn't it.
Yes, even if it was a poodle or some "cute" dog i would absolutely say the same thing. I LOVE pits, and that's why I find it sooo unethical to bring more into this world when they are being killed all over the place for various reasons.

I have personally been in the room on countless pregnant spays. You don't literally have to sit there and euthanize pups/kits, even full term. They are in the sac and are already receive the sedation the mom gets, and once the blood supply to the uterus is cut, that's that. Sometimes a bit extra meds are injected into the uterus once it's clamped off, but that's it.

I find it much more upsetting to witness a perfectly healthy and adoptable animals being held down on a table to have Fatal Plus injected into it's tiny arm as it screams for mercy, and to have to watch the life leave it's tiny face as you stuff it into a black trash bag and haul all the dead bodies to the freezer.

But maybe that's just me
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  #29  
Old February 20th, 2011, 06:11 PM
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kathryn kathryn is offline
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So what if you dont know what the dad is, how many people go into a shelter looking for a pure breed anyway? \
:
A significant majority. Probably 70%+ of average people.

I'm sensing that you really have no idea what really goes on in animal shelters
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  #30  
Old February 20th, 2011, 06:43 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
Yes, even if it was a poodle or some "cute" dog i would absolutely say the same thing. I LOVE pits, and that's why I find it sooo unethical to bring more into this world when they are being killed all over the place for various reasons.

I have personally been in the room on countless pregnant spays. You don't literally have to sit there and euthanize pups/kits, even full term. They are in the sac and are already receive the sedation the mom gets, and once the blood supply to the uterus is cut, that's that. Sometimes a bit extra meds are injected into the uterus once it's clamped off, but that's it.

I find it much more upsetting to witness a perfectly healthy and adoptable animals being held down on a table to have Fatal Plus injected into it's tiny arm as it screams for mercy, and to have to watch the life leave it's tiny face as you stuff it into a black trash bag and haul all the dead bodies to the freezer.

But maybe that's just me
It's not just you Kathryn - I am with you on this.
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