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  #1  
Old November 3rd, 2010, 09:38 PM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Help!! Slightly Hig Creatine :(

I took Mickey for a blood test yesterday and his vet called with the results tonight.She said his creatine was high (I don't have the exact number).She told me the best thing to do would be bring in a urine sample.I tried the other day but Mickey was having none of it.

I need advice!!! Everything else was ok just the creatine which leads her to believe it's the beginning of renal failure.

Is there anything else that can cause high creatine level? And if it is the beginning of renal failure what should I do???????????

I'm devasted right now and have been in tears for the last hour.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 07:00 AM
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How old is Mickey? What is Mickey eating? Is Mickey a large cat?

The best way to determine how well the kidneys are working is by a urine sample. Your vet should be able to do that by cystocentesis. You can also try getting some nosorb (or some people by the tiny rocks you put in an aquarium, I heard it is much cheaper ) I personally would not put it off too long.

Puddles has slightly high creatinine, so the vet did a urinalysis showing the kidneys are still functioning well, she is 14 years old so the start of kidney failure is definitely on the radar.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 11:04 AM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
How old is Mickey? What is Mickey eating? Is Mickey a large cat?

Mickey is 10 years old now and he is in the middle of switching to an all wet food diet...he's a junk food junkie at heart.He is a pretty big boy weighing in at 17 and 3/4 pounds He actually gained 3/4 of a pound this last month.The best way to determine how well the kidneys are working is by a urine sample. Your vet should be able to do that by cystocentesis. You can also try getting some nosorb (or some people by the tiny rocks you put in an aquarium, I heard it is much cheaper ) I personally would not put it off too long.

I am going on high pee pee alert today! The funny thing is I almost got him to go right in a container the other day but he tricked me
Puddles has slightly high creatinine, so the vet did a urinalysis showing the kidneys are still functioning well, she is 14 years old so the start of kidney failure is definitely on the radar.
I was so not ready for that phone call last night...not too mention she called at 9 pm so I was up way too late after.Have you changed Puddles diet at all due to the higher creatinine level?

Last edited by mickeysmomma; November 4th, 2010 at 11:06 AM. Reason: my lack of sleep.
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Old November 4th, 2010, 11:53 PM
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Is it Creatine Kinase (CK) aka Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) that is slightly high or Creatinine (Cre)?

Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) is an enzyme found in muscles, often this can be elevated due to stress or injury to the muscles during blood draws, if the animal was hit by a car etc, also will be high with cases of heart disease.


Creatinine (Cre) is a waste product of the muscles that excreted through the kidneys, it is considered a more accurate accounting of kidney function than BUN/Urea because diet, stress, dehydration do not have as much effect on creatinine levels. Creatinine can be elevated due to muscle wasting, kidney failure or infection, certain forms of diabetes and pancreatitis may also show high creatinine levels.

Some large muscular male cats may also have naturally occuring slightly elevated levels of creatinine, that for them is normal.

I've seen the pics of your Mickey & given that he is a large male cat and not just fat-heavy weight wise, this could be normal for his body type. Has he had any other comprehensive blood tests done in the last couple of years to compare this high value to?

If this is the beginning of CRF then the first steps would be to change Mickey's diet to a low phosphorus canned only diet to reduce some of the workload of the kidneys. Encourage drinking by adding a couple more water bowls/fountains. Reading up on CRF to know what symptoms to watch for. Quarterly vet visits w/blood & urine work to check levels.
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Old November 5th, 2010, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeysmomma View Post
I was so not ready for that phone call last night...not too mention she called at 9 pm so I was up way too late after.Have you changed Puddles diet at all due to the higher creatinine level?
Yes, I have changed her diet. She was eating a 50%raw/50% Nature's Variety Instinct, all flavours, and now I have added half Wellness Turkey/chicken and half NV Instinct to bring down the phosphorus levels. She would be on all Wellness but she doesn't like it and eats such a tiny bit now and she can't afford to loose any weight.
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  #6  
Old November 5th, 2010, 07:56 AM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by growler View Post
Is it Creatine Kinase (CK) aka Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) that is slightly high or Creatinine (Cre)?

Creatine phosphokinase (CPK) is an enzyme found in muscles, often this can be elevated due to stress or injury to the muscles during blood draws, if the animal was hit by a car etc, also will be high with cases of heart disease.


Creatinine (Cre) is a waste product of the muscles that excreted through the kidneys, it is considered a more accurate accounting of kidney function than BUN/Urea because diet, stress, dehydration do not have as much effect on creatinine levels. Creatinine can be elevated due to muscle wasting, kidney failure or infection, certain forms of diabetes and pancreatitis may also show high creatinine levels.

Some large muscular male cats may also have naturally occuring slightly elevated levels of creatinine, that for them is normal.

I've seen the pics of your Mickey & given that he is a large male cat and not just fat-heavy weight wise, this could be normal for his body type. Has he had any other comprehensive blood tests done in the last couple of years to compare this high value to?

If this is the beginning of CRF then the first steps would be to change Mickey's diet to a low phosphorus canned only diet to reduce some of the workload of the kidneys. Encourage drinking by adding a couple more water bowls/fountains. Reading up on CRF to know what symptoms to watch for. Quarterly vet visits w/blood & urine work to check levels.

I didn't even know there were different kinds of creatnine??? I feel so stupid.See given that I live in Quebec my vet is french.Communication wise we don't have a problem but when she called I'll be honest I heard 3/4 of what she was saying the rest sounded like the teacher on Charlie Brown "WAHWAHWAHWAH" I'm going to contact them today and ask for a copy of Mickeys bloodwork.Growler maybe you could help me decipher what is going on

He doesn't have an old test to go by since the last vet did a small in house test that said everything was normal...including his liver and kidneys.The new vet said he is not dehydrated but she said I definately need to bring in a yrine sample for a better idea or wait and come back for another blood test!! I'm on peepee patrol today hoping to get a sample to bring them.I can't change his litter or leave it empty because he will hold it till he explodes So I'm attemting to slip a container under him while in mid pee.I've almost had success twice but there wasn't enough to do anything with.She said I don't need much but enough ( Have no idea how much that would be LOL!!).

You've just given me a ray of hope on an otherwise gloomy day.Thank you
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Old November 5th, 2010, 04:35 PM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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I had a very quick conversation with the vet today.
She said Mickeys creatinine was "normal high" and his Urea was "elevated".
She said that the urine sample would tell her much more.Still trying to get a sample but boy is he a stubborn little guy I'm trying to get it at home instead of bringing him back to the vet he gets so traumatized

So any ideas?????
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Old November 6th, 2010, 02:13 AM
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Okay it sounds like it's Creatinine (Cre), since the vet is referencing the Urea value as well.

Try to get a copy of the blood work.

What I found worked the best for a sample collection was to have a clean/sterile container waiting on the counter in the bathroom (where the litterbox was). Since my girl was a bit shy when it came to being interrupted, I would try for the first of the morning pee - the time frame is easier to predict, plus they have to go badly enough that even with a minor disturbance you can still collect what you need. Either quietly follow her in just after she started peeing or I would wait in the bathroom, facing away from the box as if I was just looking in the mirror/getting ready for the day. Quickly slip the low sided container under the tail midstream & try collect about 3 tablespoons.

Fresher is better of course but if you can't bring the sample to the vet within 1-1.5 hour put the container in a ziplock bag & stick it in the refridgerator until you can bring it to the vet. Do not leave it in there for more than 6 hours and do not freeze it. If you do need to refridgerate the sample mention how long it was in for/what time the sample was taken to the clinic staff when you bring it in. *Be sure to label it to avoid mix-ups in the fridge *

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Old November 6th, 2010, 07:40 AM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Thanks Growler.I tried to get the sample this morning seeing as I'm heading out.Mickey is really shy about his litterbox so I tried placing the container where he pees (he always pees in the same spot).The thing is if I leave it till he jumps out he flings litter in it so this morning I tried to lift it out midstream and ofcourse you guessed it....he jumped out contaminating the sample .I have to leave in about an hour so I'm hoping for one more shot before I go.If not I have to wait till Monday

When I spoke to the vet again yesterday she said that she definately would prefer to have the urine sample to confirm.Is there something else that could cause elevated urea and normal high creatinine levels in my baby?? Like a bacterial infection or something??
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Old November 6th, 2010, 09:34 AM
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You could try covering Mickey's existing litter with cling wrap. He may try to dig at it a bit but most cats will still go on it, and then the pee pools in the folds, where it's fairly easy to poor into a container. It won't be a sterile sample by any means so it isn't suitable for a culture, but the USG info should still be valuable.
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Old November 6th, 2010, 07:24 PM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Thanks SGM! I thought of trying that this morning after yet another unsuccessful attempt.I unfortunately had to go out so was unable to get the sample I'm pretty lucky Mickey doesn't scratch when he has to pee...but his pads are so furry that when he gets out of the box it launches the litter into the container.Thats when i wondered about the cling wrap....it is most definately worth a try.

Could there be another reason that these values were high? Especially the urea?
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Old November 7th, 2010, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mickeysmomma View Post
When I spoke to the vet again yesterday she said that she definately would prefer to have the urine sample to confirm.Is there something else that could cause elevated urea and normal high creatinine levels in my baby?? Like a bacterial infection or something??
There are a number of things that can cause a rise in these numbers, usually you will see other symptoms/elevated numbers as well: could be the start of kidney disease, just dehydration, a certain form of diabetes, gastro-intestinal bleeding, eating a very high protein diet, kidney infection, hypertension or kidney stones.
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Old November 7th, 2010, 06:32 AM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Originally Posted by growler View Post
There are a number of things that can cause a rise in these numbers, usually you will see other symptoms/elevated numbers as well: could be the start of kidney disease, just dehydration, a certain form of diabetes, gastro-intestinal bleeding, eating a very high protein diet, kidney infection, hypertension or kidney stones.
Wow thanks again Growler.I know tjhe blood test also checked for hyperthyroidism and diabetes.I also had her do a check of his glucose in the office and it was 4.8.
The nasty kibble I'm weaning him off of has 27% protein it is lower than the old one he used to eat but in order to wean them I've had to use Friskies to bring intice them over to the "other side"

When I bring the urine sample in tomorrow will that rule out these other possibilities like a kidney infection,kidney stones and gastro intestinal bleeding?? I'm sorry I sound so thick headed but ever since she called with the results all my logic flew out the window...I'm running on raw emotion now
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Old November 7th, 2010, 10:34 AM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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I know this is the only place in the world that I could ever type this so here goes : Mickey just had the longest cat fart I have ever heard Normally I would find this funny but it's really worrying me because after a couple days of solid stool again there was some loose stool involved.

So heres the run down of his symptoms:
Intermitent loose stool (has been dewormed,tried antibiotic (metrodianzole) had a weird reaction

Increase in thirst and larger pees
Elevated urea and normal high creatinine
gas

Do any of these things remotely correspond to each other in any way shape or form???? He had a fecal test and everything was normal.....now what????
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Old November 7th, 2010, 01:33 PM
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from Lefties Rule

Hi, I just read your postings, and boy can I relate to your feelings right now. May I ask exactly what was it that brought you to the vet with Micky? Was it a routine checkup, or what were his symptoms at that time?

My cat, Rosebud, had increased thirst and peeing for quite a long time even before she started acting unwell. By the time I took her to the vet, this had subsided, but as I found out this was one the the symptoms of early kidney disease. So it's possible that this may be Micky's problem. I don't envy you trying to get your little guy to pee, I need to get a urinalysis soon on my kitty too.

I haven't been on this forum for very long now, but it is a godsend, and the "cat gurus" like Growler are wonderful. Good luck!
Lefty
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Old November 7th, 2010, 05:24 PM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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No Lefties it wasn't a routine check up that brought me to the vet initially.He started out with really bad diarrhea at first and that was our first visit.That vet was quite simply a horrible human being,no compassion, and offered to put Mickey down.I continued having interrmitent problems and brought him to a much nicer vet nearer to our home.She started him on antibiotics but that ended up with a bad reaction...so I stopped them.

I have tried probiotics ,which worked for awhile,then we thought there was a worm issue.So they were both dewormed...that worked for awhile but the intermittent loose stool started again.So finally I took him to the vet last week to have a bigger blood test done to check for crf,diabetes and his thyroid.Wednesday she called and told me his creatinine and urea were normal high and elevated respectively.

Now his stool was ok till today with the flatulence issue.And yes getting a urine sample is quite a treat.I have tried many different things and now tomorrow morning I will be trying the saran wrap that SCM mentioned.I have my that this works.It has been a long couple of months for both me and my baby boy...and expensive to say the least!! But the $ doesn't bother me if I can eventually help him.

How is Rosebud doing? Did she have any digestive issues that came around the same time as her diagnoses?
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Old November 8th, 2010, 01:32 AM
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Originally Posted by mickeysmomma View Post
Wow thanks again Growler.I know tjhe blood test also checked for hyperthyroidism and diabetes.I also had her do a check of his glucose in the office and it was 4.8.
The nasty kibble I'm weaning him off of has 27% protein it is lower than the old one he used to eat but in order to wean them I've had to use Friskies to bring intice them over to the "other side"

When I bring the urine sample in tomorrow will that rule out these other possibilities like a kidney infection,kidney stones and gastro intestinal bleeding??
Since the tests were already done then you can safely rule out hyperthyroidism & diabetes. 27% protein is not high enough for it to produce elevated blood urea levels.

The urine sample will rule out infection, may give an indication of the presence of stones though there are more accurate methods.

As mentioned above there would be other symptoms with gastro-intestinal bleeding such as very dark almost black poop, blood in the poop, vomiting blood.

Kidney failure is not an immediate death sentence and it is not a painful disease, maybe uncomfortable at times but not painful. Many cats especially when caught early on, can live full happy lives with a few adjustments in food & treatments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeysmomma View Post
Intermitent loose stool (has been dewormed,tried antibiotic (metrodianzole) had a weird reaction
Mickey's digestive issues are likely food related. Likely it's the changing food brands/flavours that are causing the gas & diarreah, he could also be reacting against a specific ingredient. How long has the diarrhea been going on? Did it start when you changed foods?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeysmomma View Post
He started out with really bad diarrhea at first and that was our first visit.That vet was quite simply a horrible human being,no compassion, and offered to put Mickey down
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Old November 8th, 2010, 05:45 AM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Actually Growler this intermittent loose stool was the reason I changed foods.Everytime I think it's gone it rears it's ugly head again So we've been having this issue off and on from mid-September!!!!

I'm hoping that they find an infection or something but then again I will feel like a horrible mama for not finding the root cause much,much sooner It's certainly not from a lack of trying.I already feel pretty bad about the whole thing.

I can see that he's not in any pain except maybe the odd gas pain the problem is Mickey gets very embarassed when he has diarrhea and the sad look on his face just breaks my heart.

I have set a booby trap in the litterbox to get a sample this morning Hopefully this works out....I'm trying the saran wrap that SCM mentioned.He has had his breakfast so now it's just the waiting game....I wonder if I turn on the faucet if that will help

Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with Mickey and I we both appreciate it very much.I will let you know as soon as I get the results from the urinalysis and will remember to tell them to check for infection and kidney stones too.Hopefully I will have some news by this evening.
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Old November 8th, 2010, 09:45 AM
Lefties Rule Lefties Rule is offline
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Hi, Mickey's Momma,
Just wanted to get back to you on your question about Rosebud having gastro-intestinal issues at the time I took her to the vet originally. No, none. Some constipation, yes. This was likely caused by a bit of dehydration from her CRF.
She's stable these days, and still doing well so far.
Best of luck with Mickey!!!
Lefty
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Old November 8th, 2010, 10:24 AM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Lefties: I'm glad to hear Rosebud is doing well

Well my saran wrap contrapion failed miserably because Mickey refused to step on it.Theen my hubby concoctated a device with a cup,saran wrap and screening....also a failure,there was still a bit of litter in the sample
I'm at my wits end here...totally out of ideas.I was thinking of getting aquarium gravel but I'm pretty sure he won't step on that either.I hate the idea of having to take him back to the vet for something that I should be able to do at home
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Old November 8th, 2010, 07:35 PM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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SUCCESS!!!!! I was able to collect a sample from Mickey!!!!!!!! I used a shallow tupperware container loosely covered with saran wrap,poked with pushpin holes.Smart little guy peed right in the container

I've never been so happy to collect pee in all my life So first thing in the morning I'm off to the vet and hopefully tomorrow afternoon I will have some more answers.

Just one quick question can you visually see crystals,like grains of sand in a cats urine??

Thank you all for your ideas...together we make an unstoppable lovin' team.
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Old November 9th, 2010, 03:33 PM
mickeysmomma mickeysmomma is offline
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Probiotics

Well after bringing in Mickeys sample this morning it looks like we are right on the boarder of starting kidney issues I've been reading all I can about what I can do for him and how to make him happy.

I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on using probiotics for crf? Has anyone tried this with/without any success? And id it necessary to buy Azodyl from my vet or would a regular human probiotic work just as well??
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Old November 13th, 2010, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by mickeysmomma View Post
Actually Growler this intermittent loose stool was the reason I changed foods.Everytime I think it's gone it rears it's ugly head again So we've been having this issue off and on from mid-September!!!!
He might be having issues with a particular protein or grain source. You might need to go through the ingredients on the food you are buying & eliminate the ones that have grains to start, see if that helps, then you can try a protein source he's never had.

Probiotics might also help, but ultimately you want to get to the source of the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mickeysmomma View Post
I was wondering if anyone had thoughts on using probiotics for crf? Has anyone tried this with/without any success? And id it necessary to buy Azodyl from my vet or would a regular human probiotic work just as well??
Azodyl is specifically formulated to target the uremic toxins, where other probiotics do not have the same type of bacteria. I saw a decrease in BUN/Cre while my girl was on Azodyl that she didn't have a couple of years earlier on regular probiotics for digestive issues. Azodyl should be kept in the fridge even if the bottle is unopened.
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