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Old June 13th, 2010, 02:23 PM
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Exclamation Dog Doesn't Like Raw Meat!

Ok This is starting to drive me up a wall... Sorry for the long post, I'll try to keep it as to the point as possible.

I've just adopted a 5 year old Saint Bernard, whos overweight and was used to being left out gross amounts of wetted Iams mixed with rice and eating kibbles and bits from the can.

First I tried a little ground beef, she wouldn't eat that... Even from my hand, she'd take it and spit it out. I figured OK, so maybe she doesn't like beef. I tried some ground turkey, same thing. So I fasted her for a couple days, and finally she ate some turkey...

I finally got her to eat some ground up chicken necks and backs on the third day she must have been getting pretty hungry... She RELUCTANTLY ate that out of her bowl. But I managed to feed her pretty well on that over the next few days a couple lbs a day. Till the butcher ran out of that stuff...

So then I bought some whole chicken necks and backs, She wouldn't eat them, turned up her nose and walked off, so not wanting to give up. I fasted her again for a day... Success! She again reluctantly crunched down on one of the chicken backs. I tried giving her another one later that day and she refused... So I froze it overnight and then she ate another one, in the morning yay!

Now I've moved onto whole chicken legs, with part of the back still attached -- hoping I can move her up to eating a whole chicken... And I'm having even more trouble. I give her one and she goes and tries to bury/hide it in the backyard!!! So still not giving in I froze them, and she finally ate one frozen yesterday. But I tried to give her another one today and she again goes and trys to bury it in the yard again Now I KNOW she can eat these, I just saw her eat one. But I dont want to keep going through this rigamarole. She's obviously hungry.

Should I keep fasting her? I mean its only been a week. Is she trying to train me to give her more kibbles n bits? I can't keep on going through this, god forbid what's going to happen when I start trying to mix in organ meat, tripe, and blended veggies or whatever into her meals if she doesn't even like meat to begin with?!? I cant afford to throw away half the meals cuz she decides she doesn't like them, and I really don't want to have to grind up ALL her meat & bones. I know her teeth work fine, she just ate a whole chicken leg yesterday...

I've been exercising her well too, to try and work-up an appetite, she's been getting 2-3 walk/jogs a day. She's a very active dog with healthy hips for a large breed.

She has been drinking TONS of water at least... which makes me happy. She has a terrible looking coat and bad allergies right now, she obviously needs a raw diet, but she's just being a picky eater. I've had a dog in the past who was half her size and chowed right through the same frozen chicken, so I know the meat is good, I've been feeding grassfed beef, freerange chicken... and this isnt my first time around the block feeding raw...

I saw some wild salmon on sale for 2.69 a pound yesterday I'm gonna go pick one up and see if she'll eat that.

any suggestions would be appreciated.

Last edited by raw; June 13th, 2010 at 05:22 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 05:43 PM
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I finally got her to eat some ground up chicken necks and backs on the third day she must have been getting pretty hungry... She RELUCTANTLY ate that out of her bowl. But I managed to feed her pretty well on that over the next few days a couple lbs a day. Till the butcher ran out of that stuff...
I'll leave the rest of your questions to those with more experience feeding dogs, but one thing I'm concerned about is how unbalanced a diet of chicken necks and backs is. I realize your plan is to eventually feed whole chicken, but in the meantime the necks and backs have waaaaay too much bone and not nearly enough meat. Your going to end up with a constipated dog if you continue this regime. At the very least, try feeding some canned food to augment the high bone content.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 06:41 PM
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well the point is, she doesnt even really like ground meat, beef, lamb, or chicken OR turkey very much at all. She has to be coaxed into eating them... My other dog would scarf it all down in a heartbeat and come back begging for more.

Of course I'll balance out her diet with plenty of other things besides chicken necks! (which are a good source of glucosamine) They happen to be pretty easy bones to crunch as well...


She's getting used to it though, She liked the salmon once it was thawed!

I think the problem is she has bad teeth, i just looked at her teeth and they look terrible. I feel really bad now for making her crunch on frozen chicken legs. I cant blame her trying to bury them one bit now.

Looks like I'm going to have to invest in a meat grinder so i can grind up whole chickens : She's just a picky one I guess... Spoiled too long on kibbles n' bits

anyone know of a good meat grinder that can do a whole chicken?

Last edited by raw; June 13th, 2010 at 06:47 PM.
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Old June 13th, 2010, 07:08 PM
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my dog won't eat raw, but I don't force her, she loves her bone marrows but won't eat raw beef...so she has performatrin....
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Old June 13th, 2010, 07:42 PM
shirley1011 shirley1011 is offline
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Our Jack..the black shepherd didn't buy into the raw either...he refuses anything with bone..although likes his beef bones...but he likes ground meats but I have to heat in the micro just to take the chill off.....weird!
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Old June 13th, 2010, 08:26 PM
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I know this won't help you, it is only of interest perhaps. When my first cattle dog was young she was the most picky eater you could find. We used to kill our own cattle back then for the freezer and rump steak (raw or cooked) was even refused. Didn't like chicken either. Anyway, a local vet said he had a tonic that would make her eat, it was something the vets at the Sydney uni' had concocted, combining things they thought dogs needed. Well, bingo! She started eating and never looked back. I got some for someone else and it worked for their super fussy dog too. Only trouble is that first the vet wouldn't disclose what the ingredients were, then he shifted to a bigger town, away from the area, and finally we heard that the poor chap had committed suicide, so the secret went with him. Anyway, it makes you wonder, what could it be that these dogs are lacking?
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Old June 13th, 2010, 11:42 PM
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I know this won't help you, it is only of interest perhaps. When my first cattle dog was young she was the most picky eater you could find. We used to kill our own cattle back then for the freezer and rump steak (raw or cooked) was even refused. Didn't like chicken either. Anyway, a local vet said he had a tonic that would make her eat, it was something the vets at the Sydney uni' had concocted, combining things they thought dogs needed. Well, bingo! She started eating and never looked back. I got some for someone else and it worked for their super fussy dog too. Only trouble is that first the vet wouldn't disclose what the ingredients were, then he shifted to a bigger town, away from the area, and finally we heard that the poor chap had committed suicide, so the secret went with him. Anyway, it makes you wonder, what could it be that these dogs are lacking?
This is interesting... I wonder?


She really seems to dig this salmon, I'm glad I found something she likes... Shes a fish dog I guess. Gonna have to go scoring all the good fish deals at the fish markets then... I should go buy out their whole case of salmon right now lol.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 12:11 AM
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I don't think repeated fasting is a good idea, generally if one does fast a dog (which not all raw feeders do) it's only 1 day a week max. I would be concerned with her starting to full out refuse all food, since she's getting used to not eating.

Have you tried adding small bits of raw meat to the canned food? Tricking her into eating it all together? Don't feed raw & kibble (esp w/grains) at the same time though not good for the digestion.

What about while you are cooking for yourself & just "accidentally" drop a piece of meat on the floor. Alot of dogs & cats fall for that cuz it's "not for them"

Will she eat cooked meat? You could try transitioning to homecooked first then on to raw.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 06:17 PM
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yeah well I'm not trying to starve her. But I CANT keep feeding her Iams and kibbles n' bits either. She's got terrable alergies from the stuff, and her coat looks awful, her teeth are terrible from eating bad food.

I was getting worried she had low blood sugar - she refused rice and mashed potatos slathered in butter, AND the salmon today that she ate fairly happily yesterday I tried giving her some premium kibble i picked up at the pet store - i picked up a couple different samples and she turned her noes up at that like it wasn't even food.

So she finally broke me down and I mixed a couple scoups of kibbles and bits in with the mash potatoes and she whoofed the whole mess right down and polished off the bowl. Its like a kid who wont eat dinner and just wants potato chips and candy. Been spoiled for way too long.
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Old June 14th, 2010, 06:55 PM
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Could it be that the raw simply doesn't have as much 'smell' as the kibble? An explosion of flavour or aroma?

I'd try cutting the raw up into smaller sections, and drizzling it with some home-made gravy. Or quickly braising the raw in a pan, then giving it when it's cooled down. That's how Bodhi got to like liver and kidneys. We'd gradually braise it less and less, until we served it raw. Initially she wanted food at room temperature, and would let cold food warm up first. Perhaps that's something you can try. At the time, we put the raw meat into a bag, and dunk it in warm water to let the meat warm up more quickly. Then we gradually let it warm up less and less. We still use that to thaw frozen meats so that the flavour/aroma gets freed up (it doesn't smell as strongly when it's cold or frozen).

I'd definitely move away from the Iams, and onto a more biologically appropriate kibble, without grains and fillers. We tried Orijen, but Bodhi wasn't too keen on that. She was better with Inova and with Now (we're occasionally feeding her kibble so that she doesn't lose the taste for it since we cannot give her raw when she's in a kennel for whatever reason, or when we are camping on smaller islands where raw is just unaffordable, and we can't freeze/refrigerate our own meat). We soak the kibble a bit first, so that it doesn't act like a sponge inside her tummy, and we put salmon oil or coconut oil on it to give Bo some more incentive to eat it while giving her the extra oils she needs if she's eating kibble.

Just some thoughts?
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Old June 14th, 2010, 07:10 PM
shirley1011 shirley1011 is offline
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Marcha...I think you are right....Rocqui our youngest one was not so keen when we first got her off ground meat but loved it if we threw it on the bbq just to sear the outside of the meat...I had forgotten that...perhaps the smell is different......!!!
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Old June 14th, 2010, 07:49 PM
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Hmmm this is a tough one... I was really lucky with my three that they took to raw very readily!

It could be that a kibble like Kibbles N' Bits are like junk food to kids... it tastes great, but it's unhealthy for them. It's essentially "fast food" to humans... raw is very healthy and some dogs do refuse it altogether.

You've tried alot of different protein sources... I just can't think of why she would refuse them all.

She may just be one of those dogs that does not mix with raw. You mentioned she has allergies... raw is certainly ideal for dogs with allergies, but if she refuses it altogether, a diet that is grain-free such as Orijen, will also help with the allergies (its essentially RAW but in kibble form). Have you tried any other kibbles? You can gradually mix them w/ what she eats (and likes) now, eventually getting her to a 100% top quality diet.

Good luck!
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Old June 15th, 2010, 12:40 AM
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Thank you for the replies

It seems that mixing it with the canned food was a pretty good idea afterall... She'll eat just about anything with a dab of kibbles n' bits gravy on it! I just gave her a pretty sizable meal of rolled oats with cooked beet greens and chopped raw salmon with a spoonful of kibbles n' bits mixed in She never woulda touched that without a little kibbles n bits gravey on there. She cleaned her bowl pretty well too...

She was ridiculously excited when she smelled the kibbles and bits. When I put it down she kinda looked at me and was like hey you tricked me! But she did eat it anyway. A lot faster than she's ever eaten any other real food.

I wonder what the hell they put in that stuff? MSG probably.

I like the idea of making some homemade gravy, maybe I can start to substitute that out for the kibbles n' bits... eventually...

I wont push my luck for now. I'm just happy she's eating some decent real food.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 01:04 AM
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Good news she's eating the mix slowly you should be able to decrease the amount of KnB & increase the meat without her noticing too much.

In the meantime you can try making your own gravy & adding a bit of that to the raw + KnB mix, that way she still has the flavour she wants & is being slowly introduced to the homemade at the sametime.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 08:41 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Iams and kibbles n' bits either.
What you need to know is that the food you've been giving your dog has polluted her taste buds over to the "other side".
Your dog doesn't know that this meat you are offering him is a food source. The only food source he's become conditioned to, is the artificially scented and flavoured one in the bag.

Feeding a dog that type of food is like feeding child extreme sugar laced breakfast cereal for a long time, then all of a sudden, you take it away and try to feed the child boiled carrots and potatoes.

Your dog is addicted to the sugar and salt in those commercial foods and weaning a dog off is no easy task. As a matter of fact, some dogs actually physically go through sugar withdrawal.

You can take the raw food and coat it with positive foods such as green tripe ( that usually always works), or with strong smelling bacon grease, bacon bits, butter, grated old parmesan cheese, scramble eggs. There are loads of ways of "upping" the unknown smell of raw foods without having to resort back to the original commercial foods you were using.

Contrary to what someone mentioned here, it's ok if your dog fasts sporadically. Dress the food up, put it down and if he doesn't eat it take it away until next meal time. Don't give him treats or anything else. Ultimately he'll eat it. It's no more complicated than that. A hungry dog is not a fussy dog and a dog that will be more accepting of a diet change - and more willing to accept that you won't buy into his stubborness.

I get so tired of hearing this. ( and honestly, not wanting to sound like I'm complaining). We take in over 300 dogs a year and they ALL eat raw food from the moment they get here. They aren't forced, but they quickly realize there aren't any other options, just like the dogs who were fed wonderful food then end up in a shelter. If they want to survive, they'll eat the poor shelter food. Some gravitate quicker than others, but essentially within 10 days they are all eating normally.

Dogs eat food in the following order
- Smell
- Texture
- Taste

so if the "smell" is there, the rest is easy.
You don't need gravy and for gawd's sakes please take your dog off that kibble.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 09:57 AM
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What you need to know is that the food you've been giving your dog has polluted her taste buds over to the "other side".


for gawd's sakes please take your dog off that kibble.
The OP wasn't responsible for feeding the dog that stuff, it was the previous owners.
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Old June 15th, 2010, 01:27 PM
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The OP wasn't responsible for feeding the dog that stuff, it was the previous owners.
Thank You

If you'd read the thread at all Merlin You would have noticed that I just adopted this dog a week ago. I sure hope you don't greet other raw feeding newcomers in the same manner, as it offended me and I didn't even feed her any iams I have been feeding my dogs on raw food for years before this, even the idea of a "premium kibble" has me disgusted. I've held out with the food much much much longer than your average dog owner would... If she didn't eat something i'd pick it up and try again in the evening. She ate so little for the first week she was here she started getting shaky in the legs, very low energy, and completely depressed (signs of hypoglycemia) and was losing weight FAST which had me concerned. Its not healthy to lose weight that fast, the only thing i could force into her gullet was straight protein and that's tough on kidney's that have been ravaged by iams for years.

In fact I had thrown the Iams they gave me when I adopted her in the Garbage first thing. However I'm glad I kept the cans of kibbles n' bits. There is some kind of smoky artificial flavor smell that she just ****ing goes nuts for... Would barely touch raw food before. You seem to be right about smell being first on their list though. A dab' l' do ya of the kibbles n' bits gravy, which REEKS to high heavens. I hope I can wean her off that completely , stinks up my fridge For now though, I'm just glad she's getting some real food.

She ate another sizeable meal of raw salmon and oats this morning with only a drizzle of the kibbles n' bits gravy. I also tossed some homemade lamb stock thick with lamb grease... Time to order some tripe and organ meat as soon as I get paid She didn't lick her bowl clean this time but I' still concider it a success, considering I used a lot less of the K n' B than yesterday, and the meal was sizeable.

I wish I had another dog here to show her how its really done :lol: My newfoundland would much down a whole frozen chicken no sweat. Shucks he loved his veggies and oats more that the meat it seemed like. Start 'em off young and they love it.

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Old June 16th, 2010, 06:25 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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If you'd read the thread at all Merlin You would hav
Well, I'm not perfect. I read these things on the 'fly' sometimes, on this forum, usually after the prompting of someone else, and it's usually late at night ( not that it's an excuse.. .but it's an excuse)

So I'll re-phrase my comment then:
" For gawd's sakes, please take that dog off of kibbles and bits gravy".
And what's with the oats?
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Old June 16th, 2010, 05:44 PM
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Well, I'm not perfect. I read these things on the 'fly' sometimes, on this forum, usually after the prompting of someone else, and it's usually late at night ( not that it's an excuse.. .but it's an excuse)

So I'll re-phrase my comment then:
" For gawd's sakes, please take that dog off of kibbles and bits gravy".
And what's with the oats?
Few oats never killed anyone. Whats with your attitude?

if you wanna bone to pick I'll give you the email address of the previous owners
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Old June 17th, 2010, 06:10 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Whats with your attitude
??? nothing..... nothing's wrong with my attitude.
I thought you were trying to feed your dog a raw regime.
I was mistaken!
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Old June 21st, 2010, 03:23 AM
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well in case anyone is having the same problem; I've found the solution.

The key ingredient she loves so much is very simple;

Salt.


She likes her raw meat well salted...

She drinks so much water I'm sure her kidneys will eliminate it quickly.

[/edit] Be sure to use sea salt however, not table salt!

Last edited by raw; June 23rd, 2010 at 04:06 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2010, 05:26 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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That's not good at all, in fact very bad, and higher up I did say that the dog is probably palate buffered to sugar and salt.

A dog, like people don't need more than a very , tiny small dosage of salts, which they get naturally from the foods they eat. Adding salt to foods is an extremely poor way to achieve good health. Frankly I can't believe I'm reading this. I don't know WHERE you get the idea that just because a dog drinks a lot that salt will be eliminated from the body.
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Old June 23rd, 2010, 04:00 PM
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Of course I am Not using refined Table salt, which is indeed poison for humans and animals... That is the majority of the salt that goes into processed food...

However unrefined Sea salt, is actually highly beneficial and 87 contains trace minerals that are required for good health... And sodium itself is in fact -- an essential component of your blood... if you don't have enough sodium in your body you can develop a serious condition called Hyponatremia.

And contrary to popular belief, excess sodium is quickly and readily removed from the kidneys. In fact, its very plausible that because she drinks so much water - her kidneys are removing salt faster than normal, and this is why she craves it so much.

I'm surprised someone as adiment about raw food as you doesnt know this already merlin

Last edited by raw; June 23rd, 2010 at 04:17 PM.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 05:41 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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You cannot base nor equate the nutritional requirements of humans, nor digestive reactions of humans on that of dogs.

Quote:
In fact, its very plausible that because she drinks so much water
She drinks so much water because she's laden with UNWANTED salt.... not "wanted", but UNWANTED....

Boy, I cannot tell you how wrong you are.
Good luck! your dog needs it.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 10:59 AM
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Extra salt is only useful for a dog when there's hypoadrenia or hyperadrenia. And still then, it's only a tiny amount (about 1/8th of a teaspoon every week, spread out equally over the days). Any other salt can be derived from the meat itself.

Please do not add salt to the meals to make it more palatable for your dog. It's a sure-fire way to crush your dog's renal and adrenal systems. For flavour or scent, consider salmon oil, coconut oil, codliver oil, a bit of butter (either for a quick flash-fry, or just plain raw) and wind it down as your dog gets used to the blander scent and flavour of the meat. We've also made things 'more appetizing' for Bodhi by adding powdered freeze-dried liver. You can get freeze-dried liver treats at the pet store, and those can be ground into powder.
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Old June 24th, 2010, 11:01 AM
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Few oats never killed anyone. Whats with your attitude?

if you wanna bone to pick I'll give you the email address of the previous owners
Be very wise here. You are speaking to a very well respected member of the rescue society that is also sourced out by many others within the rescue circle as well as others for assistance in regards to food and how to go about feeding it etc.

Follow this person's instructions, and you will not be led astray!
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Old June 24th, 2010, 07:15 PM
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WIthout salt an organism cannot survive! Simple fact.

Crush my dogs renal and adrenal systems As if! Its hot around here, she probably NEEDS the salt!

Quote:
For flavour or scent, consider salmon oil, coconut oil, codliver oil, a bit of butter (either for a quick flash-fry, or just plain raw) and wind it down as your dog gets used to the blander scent and flavour of the meat. We've also made things 'more appetizing' for Bodhi by adding powdered freeze-dried liver. You can get freeze-dried liver treats at the pet store, and those can be ground into powder.
These are good tips though Finally something intelligent from somebody around here. She loves olive oil by the way... Butter she seems to care less for. I was trying to order some salmon oil but they were out of stock due to salmon shortages

As far as basing the nutritional requirements of that of humans onto that of dogs... Let me ask you this... Are humans supposed to be eating grain either? No... Especially not bread (gluten) A few raw rolled oats aint gonna cause much problem for a dog. There's people who would argue a high protien diet like the prey model is bad for their kidneys. Bottom line is nobody really knows what the **** to feed a dog - they can live on just about anything, just like we can... I mean look around at what most people eat these days... Bread, Pasta, Cereal etc GLUTEN is the primary component of most peoples diet... People seem to survive on that. Yeah -- my dog eats better than most humans do. LoL

She's been eating her meals fine lately. Her allergies have gone away by the way, she's stopped shedding, and shes gotten more active and her toungue looks a very healthy rosy colour now, I'd say I'm not doin too bad, as for you folks well... I'm afraid you weren't much help. If merlin is a respected member around here then I'm outta here.

Peace!

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Old June 24th, 2010, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by raw View Post
Without salt an organism cannot survive! Simple fact.
Yes, an organism does need salt, however people as well as dogs get more than enough salt through the consumption of regular food products and there is no need to 'add' more. I heared that some people 'seared' lightly the meat for their dogs to like it.

I wouldn't give my dog salt. Check out more sites online that talk about raw food. GL.
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Last edited by Blackbear; June 25th, 2010 at 12:05 PM.
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Old June 25th, 2010, 08:56 AM
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DoubleRR DoubleRR is offline
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Wow. Some personalities just do not belong online. By the way, Merlin--I love your advice--I, too am so tired of people complaining that Bitzy won't eat xxxxx and will only eat crap that I want to feed the owners nothing but Big Macs for the rest of their lives. I have never had a dog refuse to eat if the food is taken away after a few minutes and same type given next meal. Might take a few meals--but even tiny dogs will not die from lack of food in a few days!
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Old June 27th, 2010, 09:45 AM
marcushaw marcushaw is offline
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well after reading all this, yes this post got heated when Merlin entered the discussion (not saying its merlins fault here) I think it took a turn for the worst, with throwing unecessary small comments.
We are all here to help DOGS, and human ''attitude'' should be left out of such discussions. Stupid human race cant do anything right lol.

Anyways, sometimes I think barf and raw feeding is starting to look like commercial dog food when people start to integrate ''salt, oats, kibbles, canned foods, oils, veggies'' etc.
Go back to primal feeding, Dog = Wolf.
Wolf dont eat salt kibbles or oats. If their systems does lack salt, they will lick rocks as rocks contain enough minerals as contrary to pure salt. As for veggies im not a fan of feeding them, tho I dont think they are ''wrong'' in a diet in little quantities. If they need veggies, they will eat grass, roots, leaves etc. Dogs can figuere out by themselves what they are missing, humans think..thus complicate things.
I feed my dogs half chickens, rmb, always in variety, so one day he might eat alot of boness, but the next day he might eat more meat then bones. At the end of the week, he will have had a balanced diet. Wolves can go easily 1 week without a kill, and still wont die, he might shed a few pounds, which has never harmed anyone (human or animals).
When I introduced new meats to my older dog, it took him a little bit of time to get around it, sometimes refused it, but trust me, survival skills popped in a short time since I would take the food away and resserve if the next day. They now eat everything without hesitation.
Anyways, just keep it simple and simple is raw prey model feeding. Dont try to crunch a weeks diet into 1 day, it is in no way natural for a wolf to ''everything he needs'' in 1 day.

ps. as for salt, my uncle is a pharmacist and a study freak, and he doesnt put salt on anything. Studies after studies has shown that we have way too much salt in our daily diets, everything we eat already has enough salt even too much, so dont salt anything. Salt dosnt desolve well in water, so drinking alot of water wont help, we use salt on Canadian winter road here just for that reason, it melts into ice and stays there, creating traction.

Stay pure, stay simple.
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