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Old January 13th, 2011, 06:03 PM
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mhikl mhikl is offline
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Getting Fatter on BARF

Sadie is putting on the pounds. I could sure use some help here. First, I am a canine pushover when it comes to doggy whining. I can't stand those sad eyes, the drooling and wretched antics these canine beggars put on and I end up throwing in the proverbial biscuit ie., sliver of cheese.

We have been on BARF diets for 10 days now and I have lost pounds and Sadie has snatched them for herself. I'm just going to quickly list the facts or they will be just lost in my long winded blathering.

How I used to feed the Sade.
Kibble: Legacy by Hoizon
Protein: 34 %
Fat: 15 %
Ash & Moisture: 18%
(guess the rest is carbs)
Amount: 25-30 kibbles two times a day + 3 kibbles blackmail at bed time (Total; 53-63 daily)
Occasional scrap or piece of vegetabe.
Prognosis: Kept weight stable until a year ago when others began to feed her giving her treats behind my back or leaving stuff out that she stole; she's totally ruled by compulsion.

Stats
Original Weight on Kibble: 24-25 lb
Weight Gain: 32-34 lb
Weight on BARF: 36 lb
My weight loss on BARF: 11 lb woopie (I always pack it on at xmas time)

BARF diet: 3 day example
Day 1
Breakfast: 1 chicken neck; 1 chicken foot; 1 tsp flax oil;
Supper: beef bone with some meat on it; medium carrot (1 min in Mic.); 1/4 apple
Bed Bribe: 3 Nickel sized dog vits; apple core nix the seeds.

Day 2
Breakfast: 1/2 chicken carcass (quite a bit of meat on it actually) 1 tsp flax oil; 1 tsp psylium
Supper: beef bone with some meat on it; handful broccoli (1 min in Mic.); 1/4 apple
Bed Bribe: 3 Nickel sized dog vits; apple core nix the seeds.

Day 3
Breakfast: 1 HB egg + 100g AA-1 Tin Sardines in hot tomato sauce; 2 T yoghourt plain; 1 tsp flax oil; 1 tsp lecithin
Supper: beef bone with some meat on it; medium carrot (1 min in Mic.); 1/4 apple
Bed Bribe: 3 Nickel sized dog vits; apple core nix the seeds.

Exercise
Sadie is not getting much exercise since she pulled a muscle but I do take her out for a walk to the alley way and back twice a day. She also is let out do pay the neighbour her doos three or four times a day.

Sometimes I substitute 4 oz raw salmon or white fish with skin (though I have to salt the white fish for her to eat it.)

I thought she would lose weight on a protein fat diet. (I know there is a lot of fat in the bone marrow. The carcass, necks and foot are negligible.

Cutbacks
I'm going to be giving her only one or the other of the chicken foot/neck combo; but the chicken carcasses into 3s so she gets 1/3; and skip the evening apple.

What more can I do? Should I cut her back to 3 meals over two days.

Appreciate any suggestions.

Namaste,
mhikl
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Last edited by mhikl; January 13th, 2011 at 06:08 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old January 13th, 2011, 08:24 PM
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luckypenny luckypenny is offline
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Mhikl, I see very little meat in her diet, too much oil, too much bone, and too much fat. What are "3 Nickle size dog vits"? Why are you giving her psylium? How much weight has she gained in 10 days?

I wrote this somewhere in another of your threads but I'll write it again in case you didn't see it. A well-balanced raw diet should consist of approximately 75-80% meat, 10-15% bone, and 5-10% organs (half of which should be liver). You can add 5% of veggies if you choose to but they should be either blended or juiced in order for a dog to absorb all the nutrients from it. The total amount fed per day should equal 1.5-2% of a dog's ideal/optimum weight. If you can do this, no need to add vitamins, oils, supplements, etc.

If Sadie's ideal weight is 25lbs, then she should be fed approximately 1/2lb (8oz)total food per day. So her daily portion should look something like this: 6oz meat, 1.2oz bone, .8oz organs, and .4-.8oz juiced/blended veggies/fruits (remember, this is her entire portion for the day so you would have to split it in two if feeding her two meals).
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Old January 13th, 2011, 10:10 PM
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mhikl mhikl is offline
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Very Clear

Namaste, Luckypenny,

That was very clear and that's what I need. I have read so much recently, here and elsewhere, about BARF and it has been difficult to calculate on my own the amount of meat and bone. I pick up the meat and liver tomorrow.

I am nervous about the liver but will it first thing in the morning. That way I will have the whole day to observe her and see if probs occur.

When she was a pup, Sadie would have black foul movements any time I fed her heart or liver, even small amounts. But I did feed her a few domino size pieces last week and she had no prob.

What about chicken hearts. I could get her those as well.

I had been liking the bones because it was taking her time to finish them and I figured that should give her the psychological sense that she had eaten a lot.

A final question. Coconut milk is purported to speed up the metabolism in humans. Might a teaspoon a day do the same for dogs?

Cheers,
mhikl
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Last edited by mhikl; January 13th, 2011 at 10:11 PM. Reason: wrong idea
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Old January 13th, 2011, 11:35 PM
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luckypenny luckypenny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhikl View Post
Namaste, Luckypenny,I am nervous about the liver but will it first thing in the morning. That way I will have the whole day to observe her and see if probs occur.

Feed only tiny amounts at a time. She shouldn't be getting more than a tsp.

What about chicken hearts. I could get her those as well.

Hearts and giblets are good.

I had been liking the bones because it was taking her time to finish them and I figured that should give her the psychological sense that she had eaten a lot.

You can stuff some of her meat meals into an appropriate sized Kong for chewing fun. Weight bearing bones such as beef thigh bones can damage her teeth not to mention they contain a lot of fat (marrow). Every now and then, perhaps once every few weeks is ok but, I wouldn't feed it more often than that if Sadie is overweight.

A final question. Coconut milk is purported to speed up the metabolism in humans. Might a teaspoon a day do the same for dogs?
No, it's not necessary at all. In addition, take the flax oil out of her diet (use it on your salad), stop with the psylium, the vitamins, lecithin, spicy canned tomato sardines (replace with raw frozen sardines), whole carrots, apple cores, etc. The more stuff you add, the less balanced her diet will be. I know you mean well but you can be harming your girl with too much "stuff." Keep it simple using the ratio above and she'll be just fine.

Do you have a small electronic kitchen scale? I used one when I started feeding our dogs a raw diet years ago. I've become so accustomed to it that I can figure out how much our guys need by eye but, the scale helped immensely in the beginning.

Here's more what your girl's meals should look like (based on 25lbs inactive dog). It doesn't have to be perfectly balanced each meal but that should be your aim over a period of a week or so.

Day 1:
AM: 1 chicken neck, 1/4 chicken liver, 1/2 giblet
PM: 5oz chicken meat, 2 chicken hearts, 1 tsp blended or juiced veggies (green beans, carrots, sweet potatoes, squash, etc)

Day 2:
AM: 1/2 chicken carcass, 1/4 chicken liver
PM: 2-4 frozen whole sardines (depending on size...we buy the small ones that are about 3-4" long).

Day 3:
AM: 6oz beef meat, 1oz veal liver, 1 tbsp green tripe (we use the canned variety, Trippet).
PM: 2 chicken necks

Day 4:
AM: 6oz chicken meat, 1/4 liver, 1/2 giblet
PM: 1 chicken foot, 2 hearts, 1 tsp veggies

Day 5:
AM: 1 whole raw egg including shell...really...give her the whole thing and watch her have fun with it. We've been feeding our guys raw eggs for over 4 years now and they've never gotten ill with it.
PM: 1 whole quail

The above is just an example. You'll want to add more variety over time such as veal kidney (teeny amounts), pork, beef heart, lamb, etc.

For bedtime snacks, you can then offer her a tbsp of yogurt, a tbsp of cottage cheese, or a 1 inch cube of cheese. I can break up a 1" cube of cheddar into about 20 teeny pieces. My guys don't know how much they're getting, they just have fun running through sits, downs, stays, etc for a crumb of cheese and they're more satisfied with that than if I gave them a whole cube at once.

You've just begun on the raw diet so take it slow and remember simple is better....don't worry so much.
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Old January 25th, 2011, 09:11 PM
Meggin Meggin is offline
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Putting on the pounds

Hi
Yes they can gain.I am going through that with three of mine. the answer one small meal a day around noon and all the raw carrots they like. A wee bit of fish oil tbl sp on a plate twice a week. I no longer give much red meet. and I take all the skin of chicken. Turkey is leaner. Ground turkey necks.And a natural suplement.
At last I see hope mine are better now.
When in doubt boil the chicken drain all the fat add a small amount shaved barly. Or boil pearl barley and let them drink that. It works for many things and keeps the system clean.
Dried kelp. Comfrey.If you grow that the will graze. Other wise dried and sprinkled on top of food.
For what its worth. My 2cts
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Old January 26th, 2011, 08:46 AM
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luckypenny luckypenny is offline
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Meggin, boiled chicken and barley are not a part of a raw diet . Comfrey can be dangerous. Please do your research before making such suggestions.
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Old January 29th, 2011, 08:12 PM
Meggin Meggin is offline
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Raw

yes I realize that however sometimes we have to do what we can to sort a problem, For myself this is a way to check a problem. Your right this is not a raw diet
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Old February 14th, 2011, 11:28 PM
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mhikl mhikl is offline
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Luckypenny, great stuff. I've been away so am late getting back again.

I was giving Sadie the crushed flax seed and flax oil (1 tsp) to help with inflammation and bowel movements. She must have done some damage to the right front upper leg as she is still limping at times. I also got Multi-Flex (Glucosamine, MSM, Turmeric, Devil's Claw, Bromelain) for her inflammation. I use 5ml (1 tsp) twice a day. It's been about 2 wks on the Multi-Flex and the healthcare lady said it could take a month for it to become effective. I

I'm pretty much following your outline for food. I have been using Pink Salmon instead of the sardines as I have quite a bit.

Question:
Is it ok to use the salmon more often? I'm thinking this will help with inflammation.

I met a guy who has a German Shepard who gets nothing but chicken. It's a farm dog so the meat is fresh and free of hormones etc. and has been on this diet from birth. The dog is 21 years old. According to http://www.dogluvers.com/, they should live 14 years. This site is also kinder to Pembroke Corgis giving them a life span of 15 years. The other site I saw said 11 years 3 months as average. I will go with the 15 as it makes me feel better.

Question:
I am concerned about her arm/leg becoming arthritic. Any suggestions would sure be appreciated from members reading this forum. I have an arthritic hip from the same kind of experience that Sadie suffered so I know how debilitating from it can be.

I'll leave other questions for a further post. Don't want to overload this post.
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