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  #31  
Old September 13th, 2010, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by driver8 View Post
Those are awful sites.
However, they contain only the old rehashed info about the exposures from 2002. I agree that what went on was appalling. But I'm convinced that there is not the same things going on now. If there was evidence of right now, I'd be on the phone now to the shelter in a heartbeat.

I don't think it's fair to tell people they are feeding their beloved pets something that contributes to cruelty unless you know for sure.
What makes you think it has changed!?! Do you think that suddenly lawmakers are concerned about anything that has to do with our pets? Or maybe you think that corporate America has suddenly grown a conscience?

Drive through Amish country. Take a look at the "kennels" there and then tell me that the government or big business gives a rat's *ass about what our pets are fed. They sure don't care about how animals are housed and bred - why should the quality of food be any different!
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  #32  
Old September 13th, 2010, 04:35 PM
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I don't know but if a company does this for at least 5 years is someone who you choose to support I guess that is up to you but I would prefer to feed my dog food from a responsible company that is not charging me the same price for a bag of corn that I pay for food that has real chicken and no corn in it.Corn is just filler no nutritional value.

I don't think it's fair to tell people they are feeding their beloved pets something that contributes to cruelty unless you know for sure.
Okay, so then is it okay to tell them they are feeding there pets an overpriced bag of filler leave out the part that everyone else seems to realize but you. You can feed your pets a lot better for a lot cheaper.
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  #33  
Old September 13th, 2010, 04:51 PM
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Okay, so then is it okay to tell them they are feeding there pets an overpriced bag of filler leave out the part that everyone else seems to realize but you. You can feed your pets a lot better for a lot cheaper.
I doubt most shelters have that much option though, which is part of my point.

a) That I don't think it's fair to slam on people for what they feed their cat if there is no cruelty involved - it just turns them OFF to everything this site might have to say, honestly. The first few replies to a post wondering why IAMS was not on the shelves were basically "good, that stuff is crap anyway". Do you think most people read further after that? The OP might have just wanted a reply to his question and if he'd gotten it might have read more onto the site.

I really don't think the allegations of abuse were put fairly. If someone had wanted to say "In the past they were found to have done this and so I don't support them any more and choose to buy other products" that would be different. But that's not what was said.

b) The shelter I volunteer at has investigated IAMS and feeds IAMS, and they have decided to acknowledge the past transgressions and accept evidence of change as acceptable. If there was evidence of something new going on, I know they would love to hear it. But I doubt they have the resources to spend on other foods right now based on old info that isn't currently going on.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 06:34 PM
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I doubt most shelters have that much option though, which is part of my point.

a) That I don't think it's fair to slam on people for what they feed their cat if there is no cruelty involved - it just turns them OFF to everything this site might have to say, honestly. The first few replies to a post wondering why IAMS was not on the shelves were basically "good, that stuff is crap anyway". Do you think most people read further after that? The OP might have just wanted a reply to his question and if he'd gotten it might have read more onto the site.

Then they should ask the store why they don't have it in stock ,not us. I only think it's a good thing because in my opinion, it is a poor quality food for cats.


b) The shelter I volunteer at has investigated IAMS and feeds IAMS, and they have decided to acknowledge the past transgressions and accept evidence of change as acceptable. If there was evidence of something new going on, I know they would love to hear it. But I doubt they have the resources to spend on other foods right now based on old info that isn't currently going on.
Ummmmmm, sounds like a conflict of interest. They are getting low cost or free food and reporting on how the company operates.

I just can't think of any company as being ethical when the are producing food that is not in the best interests of the animals it is intended for. It really makes me angry that the companies are making this poor quality food for people who have put their trust in them. That is cruel!!!!!!!!! to both humans and the pets.
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  #35  
Old September 13th, 2010, 10:12 PM
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Personally I feel we try to educate people as to the dangers of feeding grains/corn and byproducts in dry cat food more so than the expensive stuff. I know very well how difficult it is to try to make a pay cheque stretch to buy my cat food and pay my bills. Some months I don't make it and dip into the ol' credit cards. And that is buying the "cheaper" brands. I feed what I can afford.

BUT - with the help of this forum and a lot of reading and educating myself as to what is good/bad for my cats I know dry foods filled with grain/corn and tons of by products are only harming my cats. My cats go through close to 300 cans of food a week. That would be a mix of the cheaper foods, some Fancy Feasts, Performatrin Ultra, Wellness, and other good foods if I can find good deals on it. They get a small amount of dry to supplement but I make sure it is the best dry I can afford. I chose ones that do not have grain or corn in them. If you must feed dry then Kirkland brand from Costco is a better choice for people on a budget. The first ingredients in it is chicken. Not by products of chicken. Chicken. Not grain or corn. Even if you don't have a membership I would bet lots of your friends do and would be willing to pick up a bag. Please make sure your cat(s) always have plenty of fresh water available to them as they will be chronically dehydrated.

If you haven't had a chance to read this site then please take some time to read it. www.catinfo.org. In it you will find a comment that I personally, because of finances, go by. It is "The cheapest canned food is still better for your cat than the most expensive dry."
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  #36  
Old September 14th, 2010, 12:01 AM
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Investigating a place that has past allegations against it before you choose to do business with them is smart, it's not conflict of interest.

Yes I've seen that site before, because it's been posted to me in reply in SEVERAL threads in this forum. Which is my point. It's a very high-pressure place, this. People don't just answer a question if they don't approve of the food, etc. They lecture and preach. Nag, even. Sometimes, not all the time, but sometimes, it's worth laying off and just let the information be there for people to find. People do want to do right by their pets, by and large.

You might find you have more listeners.
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  #37  
Old September 14th, 2010, 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted by driver8 View Post
I doubt most shelters have that much option though, which is part of my point.

a) That I don't think it's fair to slam on people for what they feed their cat if there is no cruelty involved - it just turns them OFF to everything this site might have to say, honestly. The first few replies to a post wondering why IAMS was not on the shelves were basically "good, that stuff is crap anyway". Do you think most people read further after that? The OP might have just wanted a reply to his question and if he'd gotten it might have read more onto the site.

I really don't think the allegations of abuse were put fairly. If someone had wanted to say "In the past they were found to have done this and so I don't support them any more and choose to buy other products" that would be different. But that's not what was said.

b) The shelter I volunteer at has investigated IAMS and feeds IAMS, and they have decided to acknowledge the past transgressions and accept evidence of change as acceptable. If there was evidence of something new going on, I know they would love to hear it. But I doubt they have the resources to spend on other foods right now based on old info that isn't currently going on.
Eep... this thread has the makings of becoming closed.

driver8, I am not trying to be rude, but since you seem very concerned with recent, legitimate, valid proof, what actual proof do you have that IAMS is not currently using any of their old practices? I would be interested to see any links, documents, etc. you have that proves that they have improved and changed their ways. What evidence of change have they provided, that is actual valid recent proof?

My .. I would not be comfortable feeding a product to my pets from a company that has ever used anything than less than ethical practices, regardless of what their current practices are now. Can I guarantee that the company I purchase the products I feed my pets now has never used unethical practices? No. But I make the decision to the best of my knowledge, and would not hesitate to look for an alternative at the drop of a hat should anything come to light that suggested otherwise.

That being said, shelters are usually supported through generous donations and do not have much say in what products are donated to them. They need to use whatever is donated to them, and sometimes this can mean using products that may not be the best quality, but they have to work with what they get. They make do with the best they have to provide the best they can for the animals in their care.

I hear it all the time "I can't afford to feed my cat/dog any better than ___". You can make a lot of arguments about this statement and debate it, but at the end of the day we should try to feed our fur friends the best we can afford. That being said, I think it's so important to do your research on canine/feline nutrition, as quite often it is not that much more expensive (it may even be cheaper) to feed our pets a high-quality diet. I have worked out the difference down to the penny of feeding my dogs a high-quality raw food diet, a high-quality kibble diet, a mixture of the two, and a cheaper end kibble diet. What I found out was this: besides the $$ I will save on vet trips, extra poop bags etc. the difference was a mere dollars a month. So for an extra few bucks a month, I opt to feed my dogs the very best diet I can and I believe it pays me back ten-fold.

Many of us are very passionate on here, driver8. Perhaps that comes across as rude sometimes. But I like to think that most members on Pets do a wonderful job of educating individuals who come here seeking information. I think our emotions and the words we use over the internet are sometimes miscommunicated. I don't find Pets to be high pressure... but I do think that sometimes individuals come on here looking for an easy fix or a certain answer, and when we don't give them the answer they want to hear, they become angry and leave. I also find that individuals join the forum with the sole intent of lighting a fire, and it brings out the worst in all of us. Just to clarify, I am not directing this at you, these are just my general observations.

I agree that the best tactic is to provide information to people and let them do their own research and make up their own minds. But certainly there is nothing wrong with healthy and polite debate. In the process hopefully we can educate each other and do the best for our furry friends. IMO (and maybe this would be considered leacturing and preachy), we all need to be a little less reactive and think twice about the words we write. I find that a lot of feelings become unnecessarily hurt.

Cheers.

Cassie
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Last edited by cassiek; September 14th, 2010 at 12:22 AM.
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  #38  
Old September 14th, 2010, 12:31 AM
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Seems pretty obviously the OP started this thread knowing full well what the end result would be given the comments showing he/she knew in advance the "foods most people on here recommend."
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  #39  
Old September 14th, 2010, 12:44 AM
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What I found out was this: besides the $$ I will save on vet trips, extra poop bags etc. the difference was a mere dollars a month.
I second that whole-heartedly. My "established" girl has been with us for going on five years. Feeding her a better quality diet, while more expensive per bag, has ended up being cheaper in the long run because she eats nowhere near as much as she did on poorer quality food. Add to that the fact that after a rough "pound puppy" start in life with lots of health issues (infections, mange, etc.), she's never been to the vet for anything more than annual vaccinations and checkups. DOUBLE add to that the fact that when she has to go to the potty, it can often be once every couple of days, and even then it is compact, solid, and easily picked up (I know...TMI, but I'm just saying).

Just adopted my second pound puppy, and immediately switched her to my older girl's diet (another perk for certain foods, due to their high protein content they don't have to be puppy specific). Within a couple of weeks, her stool is getting firmer, WAY less stinky, and more consistent....no accidents in the house!!!
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Old September 14th, 2010, 12:47 AM
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Just realized I trounced all over a cat food issue with my doggie experience. My apologies, but still feel that the heart of what I'm saying applies. Feed better = Feel better.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 12:54 AM
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I second that whole-heartedly. My "established" girl has been with us for going on five years. Feeding her a better quality diet, while more expensive per bag, has ended up being cheaper in the long run because she eats nowhere near as much as she did on poorer quality food. Add to that the fact that after a rough "pound puppy" start in life with lots of health issues (infections, mange, etc.), she's never been to the vet for anything more than annual vaccinations and checkups. DOUBLE add to that the fact that when she has to go to the potty, it can often be once every couple of days, and even then it is compact, solid, and easily picked up (I know...TMI, but I'm just saying).

Just adopted my second pound puppy, and immediately switched her to my older girl's diet (another perk for certain foods, due to their high protein content they don't have to be puppy specific). Within a couple of weeks, her stool is getting firmer, WAY less stinky, and more consistent....no accidents in the house!!!
I agree, SunGurl, I think in most instances it actually will work out cheaper to feed your pets a higher quality diet. You usually feed less as the animal is able to digest more of the nutrients in the feed, and thus does not have to be fed as much. Because of this, generally the stools are much smaller and less frequent. With four dogs, in my books... less poop = less pick up = happier me!

Can animals survive on a poorer quality diet? Certainly! But I always say, there is a difference between SURVIVE and THRIVE. I want my pets to THRIVE and be the healthiest they can. I am one of those on a tight budget, and sometimes cringe when I need to buy dog food again. But, I believe I am being paid by ten-fold, so it's worth it in my mind.
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  #42  
Old September 14th, 2010, 01:03 AM
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You usually feed less as the animal is able to digest more of the nutrients in the feed, and thus does not have to be fed as much. Because of this, generally the stools are much smaller and less frequent.
And trust me, for those of you with dogs who eat their own poop, take notice!! More digestible means that what comes out the back end is less desirable!

Coming from experience here (although thankfully not with my own dogs!)
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  #43  
Old September 14th, 2010, 08:20 AM
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Seems pretty obviously the OP started this thread knowing full well what the end result would be given the comments showing he/she knew in advance the "foods most people on here recommend."
Actually Drako, the OP started this with a question and has not come back.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 09:04 AM
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I hear it all the time "I can't afford to feed my cat/dog any better than ___". You can make a lot of arguments about this statement and debate it, but at the end of the day we should try to feed our fur friends the best we can afford. That being said, I think it's so important to do your research on canine/feline nutrition,
exactly Cassiek , and as long as people KNOW what they're feeding their pets. I don't care if someone is feeding cheap food , as long as they know it's cheap food. not tell me or think , that it's a great food. And what ever the budget , there's always a way to feed them a good diet.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 09:22 AM
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Investigating a place that has past allegations against it before you choose to do business with them is smart, it's not conflict of interest.
Perception is everything. Investigating a place, then getting free stuff, then stating the "investigatee" is now "clean" just doesn't sit well with me.
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  #46  
Old September 14th, 2010, 09:24 AM
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exactly Cassiek , and as long as people KNOW what they're feeding their pets. I don't care if someone is feeding cheap food , as long as they know it's cheap food. not tell me or think , that it's a great food. And what ever the budget , there's always a way to feed them a good diet.
That's so true, Frenchy. I think a lot of people feed whatever is the cheapest because they feel that they can't afford to feed any better. But really there are so many options out there, which is why I think it's so important to do some research. There are kibbles out there (i.e. Kirkland from Costco) that are a much better alternative than IAMS or the like. A homemade raw food diet can also be made cheaper with a little bit of effort than most kibbles. People really need to do their research... 4 cups a day of a cheap food, compared to 2 cups a day of a more expensive higher quality food usually work out to be the same price.

IMO, feed what you want, but like you said don't pretend it's something it's not. Be realistic. For me the only proof I need is the ingredient list. In my books if it contains a lot of grains and mysterious meats its out! I also like to support my local economy as much as possible, and buy products that are made close to home. I work in the poultry industry and have seen at the processors what chicken parts are ending up in dog food like IAMS... all I can say is
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  #47  
Old September 14th, 2010, 10:06 AM
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People don't just answer a question if they don't approve of the food, etc. They lecture and preach. Nag, even. .
Educate might be the word you are looking for.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 11:56 AM
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Perception is everything. Investigating a place, then getting free stuff, then stating the "investigatee" is now "clean" just doesn't sit well with me.
I can't agree more.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 12:43 PM
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Educate might be the word you are looking for.

If anyone was confrontational I think it was the OP who did not like what we were saying and tried to make us the bad guys. I feel we were all trying to educate someone who did not want to be
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Old September 14th, 2010, 12:59 PM
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Here you go. 2009. Site from Iams. Still admitting to animal testing going on. Even if it is only a small amount it is still going on.

http://www.iamsagainstcruelty.com/ia...malTesting.jsp

2010 - from their own website.........
http://www.pg.com/en_US/sustainabili..._welfare.shtml

Sometimes, to ensure that materials are safe and effective, we must conduct research that involves animals. This is a last resort. We consider such research only after every other reasonable option has been exhausted. The vast majority of our tests do not use animals and our ultimate goal is to completely eliminate animal testing.

IMO testing on even one animal is animal cruelty. There are enough human guinea pigs around willing to put themselves at risk for a few bucks. Use them. At least they have made the choice themselves.
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Last edited by 14+kitties; September 14th, 2010 at 01:07 PM.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 01:12 PM
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If anyone was confrontational I think it was the OP who did not like what we were saying and tried to make us the bad guys. I feel we were all trying to educate someone who did not want to be
Actually, as 14+ said, it was not the OP ....

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Actually Drako, the OP started this with a question and has not come back.
And unfortuately I think all the confrontation in this thread has chased that person away.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 01:24 PM
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Here you go. 2009. Site from Iams. Still admitting to animal testing going on. Even if it is only a small amount it is still going on.

http://www.iamsagainstcruelty.com/ia...malTesting.jsp

2010 - from their own website.........
http://www.pg.com/en_US/sustainabili..._welfare.shtml

Sometimes, to ensure that materials are safe and effective, we must conduct research that involves animals. This is a last resort. We consider such research only after every other reasonable option has been exhausted. The vast majority of our tests do not use animals and our ultimate goal is to completely eliminate animal testing.

IMO testing on even one animal is animal cruelty. There are enough human guinea pigs around willing to put themselves at risk for a few bucks. Use them. At least they have made the choice themselves.
Thanks for posting that 14+ .......I had found that as well as these recent ones:

From http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...that_test.html this comment about P & G (who also owns the Iams brand) published March 4/10 ....

Quote:
Procter and Gamble owns Physique and a wide variety of other cosmetics brand. Unfortunately, it is also one of the cosmetic companies that test on animals. Procter and Gamble explains that even though the company has come up with 50 currently used alternatives to animal testing, it still does "apply reduction and refinement methods to improve existing animal-based assays."
From http://animals.change.org/blog/view/...ter_gamble_day published May 7/10 ....

Quote:
In Defense of Animals has been campaigning againt P&G's product testing since 1989. Two decades later, the company continues to perform cruel experiments on animals that are outdated, unnecessary, and not required by law. These include tests where dogs were force fed large amounts of cleaning chemicals and painful, sometimes lethal, skin allergy tests on guinea pigs and mice for a laundry detergent ingredient that has already been proven safe in human trials.
And, Proctor & Gamble is included in this list of companies publised March 5/10 that manufacture products that are tested on animals ....

http://www.care2.com/c2c/share/detail/1410669
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  #53  
Old September 14th, 2010, 01:41 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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driver8,,,i'm intrigued with why you are soooo pro IAM's,,,you talk about them as a company which they are not,,IAM's is a product,just as purina puppy chow,pedigree,Alpo,Beneful,Mighty dog,Fancy feast,,etc etc are...all of these products and many more you would know by name are all PRODUCTS. Does it not concern you "why" they have food recalls. Better yet should i remind you of the tainted food a few years ago that killed several animals and made others extremely ill, one of which was a member of this forums lovely little kitty. No she didn't die right away instead she with the help of her loving mommy lived several years..Mind you she had several health issues for the rest of her life.

I could understand if you were supporting a truly GOOD pet food product (and no i don't feed mine Orijen,,etc). Why support a product that has recalls and legal issues up the ying yang. Seriously if something you were feeding your family was being recalled several times,,would you keep feeding it to your family?
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  #54  
Old September 14th, 2010, 01:49 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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oh and this is from a recent legal document from a recent law suit...

Because of persistent rumors that rendered by-products contain dead dogs and cats, the FDA
conducted a study looking for pentobarbital, the most common euthanasia drug, in pet foods.
They found it. Ingredients that were most commonly associated with the presence of pentobarbital
were meat-and-bone-meal and animal fat. However, they also used very sensitive tests to look
for canine and feline DNA, which were not found. Industry insiders admit that rendered pets and roadkill were used in pet food some years ago. Although there are still no laws or regulations
against it However, so-called “4D” animals (dead, dying, diseased,
disabled) were only recently banned for human consumption and are still legitimate ingredients
for pet food
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  #55  
Old September 14th, 2010, 01:53 PM
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mastifflover mastifflover is offline
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Seriously if something you were feeding your family was being recalled several times,,would you keep feeding it to your family?

Well said Aslan.

PS Clark sends Grace his love and kisses
You do realize other than me that Grace is the only person he does that too
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  #56  
Old September 14th, 2010, 01:55 PM
aslan aslan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastifflover View Post
Seriously if something you were feeding your family was being recalled several times,,would you keep feeding it to your family?

Well said Aslan.

PS Clark sends Grace his love and kisses
You do realize other than me that Grace is the only person he does that too
Grace says,,,,aaaaaw....send cuddles back to the handsome boy. Not telling her the she's the only other person part it will go to her head.
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  #57  
Old September 14th, 2010, 03:18 PM
driver8 driver8 is offline
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1. I am not pro-iams. Find where I said I was. I am anti-false-accusation.
2. My objection had nothing to do with quality food vs not-good quality.

3. I started a separate thread where people can contribute some good, useful suggestions about cat foods to use for people on a budget who shop at regular stores. This is the vast majority of pet owners I see day to day.
So maybe all of you kind souls can go make some suggestions there and have it all be collected in one thread?
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=72558
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  #58  
Old September 14th, 2010, 03:31 PM
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mastifflover mastifflover is offline
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So are the links where they admit to testing on animals from 2009 and 2010 they are not the same rehashed info. But if they admit to a little testing I am betting there is more than that going on. But the bottom line is that we are not arguing about a good food here we are talking about a bag of corn. so I am done. I do not use or ever will use this product.
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  #59  
Old September 14th, 2010, 04:00 PM
driver8 driver8 is offline
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As far as I was last aware, the government actually requires testing on live animals. The info I have from the humane society's investigation is that it's diet testing and having feces examined, that type of thing. Not all "testing" is cruelty. I'd actually be willing to be that all pet food out there has involved "testing".

You might not use the product, but so many do. It's important to have accurate info provided, imo.
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  #60  
Old September 14th, 2010, 04:13 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by driver8 View Post
As far as I was last aware, the government actually requires testing on live animals. The info I have from the humane society's investigation is that it's diet testing and having feces examined, that type of thing. Not all "testing" is cruelty. I'd actually be willing to be that all pet food out there has involved "testing".

You might not use the product, but so many do. It's important to have accurate info provided, imo.
Wow - not cruel? I would attach a link but I fear that it will have alot of members here tossing and turning at night.

Find out what testing actually means and also what happens to those animals once testing is terminated.
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