Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > General Forum for cats and dogs

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:12 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Pedigree Dogs Exposed

Playing right now on CBC NN , so far , hard to watch. They're showing how people who show dogs , have slowly but surely , screw up the breeds. Health problems ... one of them , cancer in Goldens , something I know too well. How Daschounds have shorter legs etc ...
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:16 PM
luckypenny's Avatar
luckypenny luckypenny is offline
Doggie Wench
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St. Philippe-de-Laprairie, Qc
Posts: 11,813
What does NN stand for? I'm gonna go look for it.
__________________
"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:17 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckypenny View Post
What does NN stand for?
I have no idea , that's how it's listed with Shaw satellite
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:19 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,955
Do you think it's a typo for CNN?
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:20 PM
Etown_Chick Etown_Chick is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 597
CBC News Network.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:22 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/pass.../pedigreedogs/

it's going to play again on later dates. I think you can also watch it online.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:26 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,955
Gol dang...I can't even get the initial page to load I think I'm having trouble with my internet again
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:26 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Etown_Chick View Post
CBC News Network.
That's it
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:34 PM
Loki Love's Avatar
Loki Love Loki Love is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 485
I've seen this before - and you have to take it with a grain of salt. Just remember that every documentary produced has an agenda and nothing is unbiased.

I'm not saying there are not valid points being made - for example, the utmost importance of health testing as well as being careful with close inline breeding; but they take it a bit too far when comparing the dogs shows to Nazis!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:37 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
I've seen this before - and you have to take it with a grain of salt. Just remember that every documentary produced has an agenda and nothing is unbiased.

not really , if you look how GSD and other breeds used to look like , and how they look today , making traits stronger , creating health problems , it's kinda obvious

but they take it a bit too far when comparing the dogs shows to Nazis!
well yes , that would be taking it too far.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:39 PM
Loki Love's Avatar
Loki Love Loki Love is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy View Post
not really , if you look how GSD and other breeds used to look like , and how they look today , making traits stronger , creating health problems , it's kinda obvious
If one is doing proper health testing prior to breeding - how is that creating more health problems?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:52 PM
cell cell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 586
Is this the same as the BBC documentary, highlighting Britain's champion pug, and the cavaliers skull issues? I dont really remember them talking about dachshunds or goldens much. If its the same, it's on Google video
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old August 9th, 2010, 09:58 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki Love View Post
If one is doing proper health testing prior to breeding - how is that creating more health problems?
Because when you breed for a particular trait, you tend to bring along genes in close proximity to the ones you're selecting for...for example, some genes that might predispose the dog to a particular disease. You set the 'hidden' genes when you set the 'physical' genes, et voila! You have a breed that looks a particular way but is prone to a particular set of diseases

That oversimplifies, but it's a common consequence of domestication/breed development.
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old August 9th, 2010, 10:05 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by cell View Post
Is this the same as the BBC documentary, highlighting Britain's champion pug, and the cavaliers skull issues? I dont really remember them talking about dachshunds or goldens much. If its the same, it's on Google video
yes that's the one , no they didn't talk too much about goldens and dachshunds , but listed them as examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post
Because when you breed for a particular trait, you tend to bring along genes in close proximity to the ones you're selecting for...for example, some genes that might predispose the dog to a particular disease. You set the 'hidden' genes when you set the 'physical' genes, et voila! You have a breed that looks a particular way but is prone to a particular set of diseases

That oversimplifies, but it's a common consequence of domestication/breed development.
Yes , that's it Hazel. They didn't care about the health problems it would bring some breeds , they just liked how they looked.

holy crap they showed a Pekenese (sp) who won best in show , had to be put on ice while getting his prize because of a heart condition. and he won best in show ! so , who cares about the health condition , the dog looks good by 'standards' !
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old August 9th, 2010, 10:08 PM
cell cell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy View Post
holy crap they showed a Pekenese (sp) who won best in show , had to be put on ice while getting his prize because of a heart condition. and he won best in show ! so , who cares about the health condition , the dog looks good by 'standards' !
Just gotta look nice on the outside, who cares about the inside!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old August 9th, 2010, 10:09 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Same goes for pedigree cats , I saw pictures of purebred cats from back in the 50's and 60's , they looked very different than what they do today. Not for the better health wise.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old August 9th, 2010, 10:10 PM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by cell View Post
Just gotta look nice on the outside, who cares about the inside!
Exactly , and these are breeding dogs ! Spreading the health problems ....
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old August 9th, 2010, 10:11 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,955
They didn't do it intentionally Often, the health problems didn't show up clearly for generations. Now the struggle is to breed the health problems out! And as the science and technologies become more refined, it'll make that job easier.
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old August 9th, 2010, 10:12 PM
erykah1310's Avatar
erykah1310 erykah1310 is offline
Blue eyed funny farm
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,595
Like with everything there are reputable and not.
In the show world there are those who are just as sneaky as a byb.
not all breeders who show do health testing, and not all breeders that do health testing show.
People who are looking to sell pups know that many people who really dont know a whole lot about what is really involved with showing and how easy it is to obtain a title if you were to "stack" your breed for points for your dogs.
Like I have said many times around here, even the best looking websites for "ethical show breeders" can have some very dark secrets, like when someone came on here looking at TM breeders in Canada and everyone here said the the one kennel who showed the dog was the only ethical one seriously made me laugh and shake my head.
What looks ethical isnt always.
Dog shows do state what dogs conform to standard but now many of you are questioning standards. So if I were to breed working GSD's but refused to breed for the sloping topline, my dogs would not conform to standard which would make many of you on here say I was unethical. then in the next breath you would be complaining about the sloping topline that is the breed standard.
There is no pleasing everyone I know, but until parent groups start standing up for their breeds and not jepordizing their health this will continue.
I will NOT breed oversized TM's no matter how well they would do in the ring (how quickly they would obtain their CH), the pro's and cons list has too many points for cons so for now I will continue working towards our working titles even though we are showing this fall, its purely for fun and I dont care either way if lets say Karma or Marv took BIS all weekend or not.
__________________
Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyways. ~John Wayne
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old August 9th, 2010, 10:49 PM
Goldfields's Avatar
Goldfields Goldfields is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,282
I can tell you it's far easier being a pet owner than a breeder. If you really care about structure ,conformation, movement and soundness then it's an uphill battle trying to find sound stud dogs to use that also have the type, temperament. coat etc. you want. I used to start looking the minute I decided to retain a female pup. America does far more health testing than they do here so even though I hip scored my girls, finding a dog that was also hip scored was almost impossible, without all the other things like heart problems, eye problems etc. that people don't want to talk about or test for. I've seen cattle dogs change just so much in the past 35 years here. They've gone from being up to height strong dogs with their forelegs back under their withers, to small dogs with cute spitz type faces and shocking fronts. People say to me "Isn't that dog moving well?" and the answer is "NO it's not!" It's moving fast with a lot of small steps. I once took two dogs with me when we visited a friend down on his Hereford Cattle stud. I was delighted when I let them out and, without even saying hello, he said, pointing at the short stocky one, "I don't know whether you own that dog but I don't like him". I just laughed and said "neither do I, Jack, he won't be used for breeding". He really loved my blue girl though, and the point is, that sort of opinion, from a chap who worked his cattle with dogs all his life, was more important to me than what any judge would tell me. I think I'm lucky though, I live in the country, midway between two capitals, and we don't have many of my breed in the area. I've got my eye in on a working type of dog, not what is fashionable(and sometimes so wrong) in the show ring.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old August 10th, 2010, 05:50 AM
Loki Love's Avatar
Loki Love Loki Love is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Regina, SK
Posts: 485
Quote:
Originally Posted by erykah1310 View Post
There is no pleasing everyone I know, but until parent groups start standing up for their breeds and not jepordizing their health this will continue.
I will NOT breed oversized TM's no matter how well they would do in the ring (how quickly they would obtain their CH), the pro's and cons list has too many points for cons so for now I will continue working towards our working titles even though we are showing this fall, its purely for fun and I dont care either way if lets say Karma or Marv took BIS all weekend or not.
I agree - it's for the parent clubs to step up and reexamine the standards, if necessary.

Having a GD, I can understand the sentiment of 'bigger is better' - and yet, all those who want (and have) the biggest, bulkiest GD on the block will no doubt end up with a dog with joint issues at a younger age. What is preferred in the ring though? From my limited showing experience, it's been a toss up. Some judges prefer the bulkier/bigger look - others prefer the leaner look. We insist that judges compare to the 'standard' - but the competition in itself is flawed because it's based on opinion. Myself, I'm happy as a clam that Loki is on the leaner side and sitting at a comfortable 35".

I think I had a point to make at one time.. but now it's lost.. and it's early in the morning.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old August 10th, 2010, 09:44 AM
catlover2's Avatar
catlover2 catlover2 is offline
Catlover2
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: GTA (Greater Toronto Area)
Posts: 1,031
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenchy View Post
Same goes for pedigree cats , I saw pictures of purebred cats from back in the 50's and 60's , they looked very different than what they do today. Not for the better health wise.
I was involved in the cat fancy breeding and showing from late '70s to early '90s, I remember when Persians had a nose to now having the nose up between the eyes! Of course this has messed up the tear ducts and sinus cavities. How does this happen? well part of it is the breeders' fault and part is the judges themselves. Even though the "breed standard of perfection" and any changes to it are written by breed council members of a particular breed, changes voted on etc. What happens in the show ring is the judges' "interpretation" of the breed standard. So you get a judge that likes a shorter nose on a Persian, puts the Persian in his "finals". Of course breeders like to get ribbons and titles on their cats, some a lot more than others and but for some it becomes "the be all to end all" to get ribbons. Before you know it only those Persians with shorter and shorter noses get the ribbons, and if you want Ch. and GrCh. titles on your cats breeders have to go along with it, otherwise no other breeders are willing to sell you breeding stock when you have to bring in new bloodlines. Today's CFA standard says the Persian nose should be: "short, snub and broad with break "centered" between the eyes". The only "disqualification" about the head is "deformity of the skull resulting in an asymmetrical face and/or head. Crossed eyes." Most have the whole nose including nostrils centred between the eyes, not just the "break"!


The same thing happened to the Burmese which now have such flat faces they look ugly from the very sweet faces they used to have. There are some breeders who refused to "go along" with this nonsense and in CFA they actually have two Burmese recognized now--- the "European Burmese" or traditional one, and the more extreme one. Fortunately, there are breeders who are interested in the health and vitality of their cats, who refuse to breed to such extremes that is detrimental to the breed and keep the cat's health foremost in their minds. There are some breeds that have not changed their standard very much over the years, the Korat, Manx and Birman come to mind.
__________________
"We humans are indeed fortunate if we happen to be chosen to be owned by a cat." -- Anonymous

Last edited by catlover2; August 10th, 2010 at 09:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old August 10th, 2010, 09:56 AM
cell cell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 586
FOr those interested here is a Youtube clip of the documentary, highlighting German Shepherd dogs and their sloping backs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIaM3hYFszc

full video

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoid=44215931

After the airing of this documentary the Crufts dog show (biggest show in Britain) from airing on TV. I don't know if it is still airing or not.

I wonder how many of the same issues found in UK dogs are found in common North American pets. Unscrupulous breeding, and non conformity to standards in pet bred animals could possibly be saving the dogs from some conditions, while unfortunately causing them new ones.
I personally think it is worst to breed a dog KNOWING it has a history of medical ailments then putting the breeding up to dumb luck (even though 2 perfectly healthy dogs can still create medical disasters for puppies).

Last edited by cell; August 10th, 2010 at 10:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old August 10th, 2010, 10:00 AM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by catlover2 View Post
I remember when Persians had a nose to now having the nose up between the eyes!
And they were so much cuter before IMO. they all were.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old August 10th, 2010, 10:02 AM
Frenchy's Avatar
Frenchy Frenchy is offline
-
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Quebec
Posts: 30,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by cell View Post
FOr those interested here is a Youtube clip of the documentary, highlighting German Shepherd dogs and their sloping backs.
Again , that is so sad , GSDs were beautiful as they were.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old August 10th, 2010, 10:51 AM
Masha's Avatar
Masha Masha is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Toronto, ON
Posts: 745
When we were looking for a GSD breeder, we did not want an oversized GSD or one with a sloping back because of the health problems.
Now when we walk our guy, people often stop to chat and i hear the following way too many times 'oh, my friend has such a BEAUTIFUL GSD, he is a king GSD, so large, he is 8 months and already the size of yours and his parents were so big, he will weigh 130 punds for sure' (i leave it at that, but in my head i think... imagine the health problems... why would u intentionally oversize a GSD??')
Another one i often get is 'oh is that a pure bred??? cuz his back isnt sloped.... the real GSDs have sloped backs'....
People's bias towards 'looks' creates a demand for dogs that look good, not dogs that are healthy... and as long as demand is there.... there will be people to capitalize on that and breed dogs taht look good but have a myriad of health issues....
__________________
Mommy to two amazing boys and one awesome girl:

Monkey and Amy (cats)
Jermy (GSD)


“Dogs believe they are human. Cats believe they are God.”

"The average dog is a nicer person than the average person."
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old August 10th, 2010, 11:28 AM
Goldfields's Avatar
Goldfields Goldfields is offline
Senior Contributor
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,282
Masha, what makes me shudder is to see GSDs with that exaggerated slope walk by at a show and see the hocks wavering from side to side. Or in my breed, the ACD, to see dogs with deep stops. The reason the standard asks for muzzle and skull to be on parallel planes with a slight but definite stop was so that if the dog was working and got kicked in the face by a steer, the blow would glance off over the skull, instead of smashing it. It is really the judges that mess breeds up. If they had always judged to the Standards, breeders would try and breed to it. I only chose two of the obvious faults there of course, there are many more.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old August 10th, 2010, 11:33 AM
cell cell is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 586
I saw a 4 month old GSD pup at the dog park the other day, could barely pull its butt off the ground, sad sight when it should have been ripping around having fun. Instead it was withdrawn and uninterested.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old August 10th, 2010, 11:52 AM
Love4himies's Avatar
Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Boating in the 1000 Islands
Posts: 17,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by catlover2 View Post
I was involved in the cat fancy breeding and showing from late '70s to early '90s, I remember when Persians had a nose to now having the nose up between the eyes! Of course this has messed up the tear ducts and sinus cavities.
Thanks for mentioning that, it was going through my head while I was reading this thread.
__________________
Cat maid to:

Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old August 10th, 2010, 02:43 PM
Floppy Dog Floppy Dog is offline
Floppy Dog
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Squamish, BC
Posts: 194
This is exactly what I was ranting about a while ago. My Cocker Spaniel has the heart and mind of an excellent retriever but the physiology of a "parlour dog". It's so frustrating when we take her out for a ramble by the river. She's got the attitude but she'd never survive in the field.

BTW, have you checked out the Working vs. Show thread? I've posted some pictures and there's a comparasin of Dachshunds too. Very interesting.
__________________
If you're green, you're growing...if you're ripe, you're rotting!

I try to greet the world like my pets do...boundless enthusiasm, intense curiosity and no concept of yesterday and tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:19 AM.