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  #61  
Old January 5th, 2010, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by BenMax View Post
HappyCats - I get you 100%. I do. But I must put this into play:

Though I appreciate your logic around what is considered 'sport', I have to disagree as it is just not logical. Hunting to me is a sport. It's about precision. It is a very tactful, calculating and deals with a tremendous amount of patience. I am not talking about some kid going hunting with daddy and pointing a rifle at any animal in sight. There is much more to hunting than that.

Good hunters (and there are some) are very seasoned. It is not a game to them as it is their intent to ensure that the animal is killed with one clean shot. IF not, they are humiliated and they may not be included in further future excursions. For these hunters, this is taken with great care and there is no room for errors.

I am not justifying hunting, but I thought it important to let you know that I was actually there to witness and form my own opinion. I have a greater understanding and greater knowledge.
Thank you!
I dont expect everyone to accept hunting, but to understand it more. There is a skill to it and yes we do NOT like seeing things suffer or go to waste.
As for how many are seasoned, well that depends on years hunting. One way that hunters who care about the animal they are hunting hunt is by ensuring it is a swift painless death. Target practice can (and around here) does go on year round. Many many bullets and arrows get shot into various things such as bags on hay bails, boards on trees even cans set so far off that you need to use your scope and understand the gun you are shooting to ensure you will hit in the most precise area to cause no suffering. If you do not understand the weapon you are using or how it works you will cause needless suffering.
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Old January 5th, 2010, 04:39 PM
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I respect your opinion BenMax, I used to also target practice, and although we often had competitions see who was the best shot, I never thought of it as "sport".
I compare it to a sniper.....he/she has to have the same skills as a hunter, but I don't consider that a sport . But that's just my opinion

And yes there are some amazing marksman out there, but the wanna be hunters that can't shoot if their life depended on it not to mention the trigger happy ones (who shoot when they hear a leaf rustle in the breeze), far outnumber them unfortunately :sad:
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  #63  
Old January 5th, 2010, 08:03 PM
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In 2008 (I don't have the figures for 2009 handy, or I'd use those), over 750,000 hunters hit the Wisconsin woods for deer season. There was one accidental shooting fatality that season. That doesn't sound like there are that many trigger-happy or wanna be hunters out there. And I think everyone might be surprised at how many people hunt deer out of necessity to fill their freezers, and how many food pantries rely on the donations of venison. I live in one of the poorest counties in WI and the deer hunting season is very important here.

Just my
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Old January 6th, 2010, 03:48 AM
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Yep, my hubby is a hunter too but unfortunately was not lucky this year so we didn't get to fill the freezer. We had a lot of snow last year and so many deer got taken by the increasing numbers of coyotes we have now.

My dh is not one of those trigger happy hunters either nor does he party and brag with the boys afterwards. He will not shoot a female ...only goes after the bucks and no, we do not hang the antlers on the wall as a trophy. He will not use an atv to hunt ...in fact, he parks the truck and walks.

So that's my
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  #65  
Old January 6th, 2010, 09:10 AM
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This thread wasn't really started to debate the "pros and cons" of whether one agrees with hunting or not, but whether a "cull" is necessary or not.....It is really starting to meander
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  #66  
Old January 6th, 2010, 09:44 AM
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Sport = to amuse oneself ... IMO hunting is NOT a sport

I'm sure we've all encountered yahoo's who engage in cowardly inhumane conduct hunting down animals for fun, drink beer - high fiving ... celebrating one topic

Hunting for food another topic

Culling = to reduce or control the size (as a herd) by removing (as by hunting) of especially weaker animals, this topic

Q It's said there is approx 8 Does to every Buck yet it's restricted to hunt Does (to protect fawns) so wouldn't it be fair to say this directly contributes to their over population requiring constant yearly "maintenance"?

They shouldn't be saying it's to control them or feed families - y not call it for what it is - major revenue from hunting licences

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Is there really a "right" thing to do to lessen the suffering of these deer?
YES ... if left ALONE! Deer have always managed to regulate themselves NATURALLY!

If I lived where deer were grazing on MY shrubs or sitting in MY backyard I'd use repellent, build a fence and SLOW DOWN not sit back and cry for the gov't to orchestrate a costly cull burgeoning their population because ahem their in MY way
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  #67  
Old January 6th, 2010, 10:29 AM
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It sounds like this is a very small area, though.... Limited predators.

Deer don't regulate themselves--no organism does. Regulation comes through balance--if there are no predators, the balance comes when the organism literally eats itself out of house and home and starvation sets in.

During early settlement years in WI, there were by many estimates, only 150,000 to 200,000 whitetails in the entire state. The herd size in the state is ten times that now due to land use practices and reduction in predators. Regardless of where the blame lies for the situation, the situation stands and has to be taken care of. The wolves are beginning to thrive here again, but the deer herd is still too large. Crops are being damaged and deer-car collisions are frequent. During winters of deep snow, the deer yard up and slowly starve over winter. Right now, the only predator in some areas here able to regulate the deer herd is human... The alternative is starvation.

In WI, they finally realized exactly your point about the does, GG. If you don't wipe out the wombs (as harsh as that sounds), taking out only bucks will not help. One buck can impregnate many does. So in areas where the herd exceeds carrying capacity, a hunter is not allowed to take a buck until an antlerless deer is taken. Many hunters fill their freezers without taking a buck at all. And finally, it looks like the size of the herd is coming down. Maybe the white cedar won't be browsed to extinction in WI, after all.
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  #68  
Old January 6th, 2010, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girls View Post
YES ... if left ALONE! Deer have always managed to regulate themselves NATURALLY!

If I lived where deer were grazing on MY shrubs or sitting in MY backyard I'd use repellent, build a fence and SLOW DOWN not sit back and cry for the gov't to orchestrate a costly cull burgeoning their population because ahem their in MY way
There are a few ways to "cull" a herd naturally:

Disease-could run rampant if there is an overpopulation and lead to a painful death

Natural Predators: I do agree this is a quick death (saw it on Christmas morning in my backyard), however, it means the influx of more dangerous animals such as coyotes and we know they will be culled too and not be allowed to lessen the deer population the way nature intended.

Starvation: Have you seen a deer too weak to walk due to starvation? It is not pretty and the death is slow, especally if there are no coyotes/wolves to kill them quickly. I, personally, would rather see them shot.

Human Intervention: Hunting.

BTW, I do have deer that munch on my garden regularly. Last year I didn't get any roses because of their "pruning" for me, lol. All my hostas, also known as deer "candy", well no need to say how well those turned out .

I do agree with leaving nature to regulate itself, but not if it is going to lead to slow deaths of the animal, or increased deaths of more animals (coyotes and other predators who are just trying to get to food to feed themselves).


This deer overpopulation that this artcle refers to requires immediate attention and I don't see any option but to cull ethically.

Just my
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  #69  
Old January 6th, 2010, 10:44 AM
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I have to agree with L4H. We have not allowed enough natural predators to regulate the population. There is nothing worse than seeing an animal struggle to get up - we see it every now and then with our domestic animals that are rescued at times, and it is a sorry sight.
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Old January 6th, 2010, 02:16 PM
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[QUOTE=hazelrunpack;870376]
Quote:
It sounds like this is a very small area, though.... Limited predators. Deer don't regulate themselves--no organism does. Regulation comes through balance--if there are no predators, the balance comes when the organism literally eats itself out of house and home and starvation sets in.
I understand. As far as deer starving if the purpose of the cull was for their benefit I'd of said round em up and help their pain as humanly as possible which I would think one shot. Putting bait to get a better shot then shoot an arrow at them then hunt them down I just know about that

Quote:
In WI, they finally realized exactly your point about the does, GG
I read that after passing an archery test a hunter must 1st kill a Doe before a Buck not sure y perhaps to practice but that Does are very much protected.

Definately something needs to be done just not sure doing it this way isn't just creating bigger problems for the future
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Old January 6th, 2010, 03:22 PM
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I understand. As far as deer starving if the purpose of the cull was for their benefit I'd of said round em up and help their pain as humanly as possible which I would think one shot. Putting bait to get a better shot then shoot an arrow at them then hunt them down I just know about that
Rounding up deer would be very stressful to them all. Very similar to a slaughter house. I'm not sure that would be easier for the animals.

I don't normally agree with baiting. But in areas severely stressed by the size of the herd, baiting can maximize the opportunity for access by hunters. And as someone else pointed out, left-over bait will be a meal for deer that aren't culled. The goal is to reduce the number of deer in the area as humanely as possible so that the remaining deer can survive. Baiting will allow them to reach that goal as quickly as possible.

It's unfortunate that a cull is necessary, but sometimes harsh measures are needed to preserve an ecosystem once the balance is gone.

I'm glad to hear that they are at least encouraging the taking of does before bucks.
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  #72  
Old January 6th, 2010, 03:55 PM
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Hey I thought I would just pop in and say although I know NOTHING about hunting and nor do I want to but I had an expperience quite a few years ago that has always stayed with me and reading some posts brought it back again.

I used to own a business and was running around picking up stuff and I had to go to the meat factory to pick up Ham. We before I even I arrived I was sickened by the odours in the air but what was so horrible to me is this...a transport truck arrived with a full truck full of live pigs and they were screaming bloody murder, there were so many in the truck it honestly appeared to me that they were standing on one another...long story short a man stood there and zapped with something to get them out of the truck and into the slaughterhouse and I will never forget the screaming and the caos...it really bothered me that this is what the last thing they remember is...and I know you all probably think I am a wacko cause they are only pigs but man they are animals...

SO hearing of any kind of round up I think in my opinion it would be more tragic for these animals
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  #73  
Old January 6th, 2010, 04:01 PM
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I have to agree with you Winston. I don't like the idea of mass killing like this and I don't think that due to the chaos it can cause will result in quick and humane kills.

As I said in another post, I witnessed a hunt with some very skilled people who tracked the animal. Only one person within this group killed a deer. The others were very choosy and did not kill those that had under 8 points. After the kill there was no celebration. It was solem actually. Sad. But what I do give credit to is the fact that it was done very quickly and there was no suffering at all. I will never go again, but what it did teach me was experience, knowledge and to stop being so radical about something I knew nothing about first hand. I would absolutely trade never seeing this again, but I am glad that I can say that I saw, and learned and have become all the wiser.
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  #74  
Old January 6th, 2010, 04:06 PM
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ok when I said round em up ... I didn't mean literally, sorry that didn't come out right

Winston ya I hear you, that would be very traumatizing. I do not eat pork or any animal for this very reason and probably why I think the way I do whether it's deer, seals or pig
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Old January 6th, 2010, 09:23 PM
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I used to own a business and was running around picking up stuff and I had to go to the meat factory to pick up Ham. We before I even I arrived I was sickened by the odours in the air but what was so horrible to me is this...a transport truck arrived with a full truck full of live pigs and they were screaming bloody murder, there were so many in the truck it honestly appeared to me that they were standing on one another...long story short a man stood there and zapped with something to get them out of the truck and into the slaughterhouse and I will never forget the screaming and the caos...it really bothered me that this is what the last thing they remember is...and I know you all probably think I am a wacko cause they are only pigs but man they are animals...

SO hearing of any kind of round up I think in my opinion it would be more tragic for these animals
There are animal advocates for these ... transports. Many of them are very inhumane. So I know what you're saying :sad:

sorry for the
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  #76  
Old January 7th, 2010, 07:49 AM
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I find it amusing that i have found this thread at this time, as earlier yesterday I was listening to cbc talking about what to do about the extra large population of deer near killarney, a town close to the border where my mom grew up and i still have family that farm. . Happycats i am with you on this one. .

I dont eat meat, but my family does, we buy straight from neighbors all chicken, eggs, beef, pork, it is cheaper to buy an animal from them and have it custom cut at the abbatoir. Here ALL cattle farms, cows graze many hundreds of acres. I find a large difference between eating a domestic animal created and raised by man, and killing nature, deer, fish, geese, ect. .

The truth is nature can work itself out, and this population should have been managed from the getgo, i dont know the place in this topic, but here i know deer will come to towns when hungry, oh well, i think a deer is more important than my plants. My uncle says he lost about $18 000 last year in standing corn and silage to deer, and can suck it up, but when the get to a town and eat an apple tree the go from nature to a nusience.

Here it is easy and possible to set up feeding stations in extra hard cold years that are far enough to keep them away from a community.

I will never agree with man playing God and making decisions on nature, look at what we have done already, getting in deeper will cause even more harm, there is no going back. I do think it is the same as cats, there is a giant population running around starving and diseased, we form groups to save them, help as many as we can, and step in to stop the population from exploding in the first place. We dont, and never would agree with lining up and shooting them while they snacked on whiskas, but thats my 2cents. .

They just arent ours, period, they dont belong to us, we have no right to play God. . .
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Old January 7th, 2010, 08:25 AM
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i agree they shoud have managed this appropriatly before the woods were in danger but this area is a haven for migrating birds of all kinds and if they do not do something, that will disappear
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Old January 7th, 2010, 09:20 AM
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I find it amusing that i have found this thread at this time, as earlier yesterday I was listening to cbc talking about what to do about the extra large population of deer near killarney, a town close to the border where my mom grew up and i still have family that farm. . Happycats i am with you on this one. .

I dont eat meat, but my family does, we buy straight from neighbors all chicken, eggs, beef, pork, it is cheaper to buy an animal from them and have it custom cut at the abbatoir. Here ALL cattle farms, cows graze many hundreds of acres. I find a large difference between eating a domestic animal created and raised by man, and killing nature, deer, fish, geese, ect. .

The truth is nature can work itself out, and this population should have been managed from the getgo, i dont know the place in this topic, but here i know deer will come to towns when hungry, oh well, i think a deer is more important than my plants. My uncle says he lost about $18 000 last year in standing corn and silage to deer, and can suck it up, but when the get to a town and eat an apple tree the go from nature to a nusience.

Here it is easy and possible to set up feeding stations in extra hard cold years that are far enough to keep them away from a community.

I will never agree with man playing God and making decisions on nature, look at what we have done already, getting in deeper will cause even more harm, there is no going back. I do think it is the same as cats, there is a giant population running around starving and diseased, we form groups to save them, help as many as we can, and step in to stop the population from exploding in the first place. We dont, and never would agree with lining up and shooting them while they snacked on whiskas, but thats my 2cents. .

They just arent ours, period, they dont belong to us, we have no right to play God. . .

EXACTLY how I feel. funny eh!

My parents feed the local deer all winter long, (so do so many of their neighbours) They stop feeding in the srping, when their natural food is available.
Yes my Mom has lost her Hosta's and many shrubs as well as her roses (My mother is an avid gardener) but I guess she believes the sighting of a deer on her property at the feeder is more beautiful then her gardens so she's willing to sacrafice a few plants
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Old January 7th, 2010, 10:07 AM
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But I don't think the issue is people's hostas, or even that the deer are encroaching on human habitation. It sounds like this is an area hosting many different types of wildlife and the deer are so overpopulated that they are encroaching on those other species habitats.

Feeding stations sound like a good idea, but they also may increase the spread of CWD and other cervine diseases. Like the 'mad cow' disease prion, once the prion responsible for CWD enters the environment, it is devilishly difficult to remove. We're fighting the spread of CWD in WI right now--a difficult task given the size of the herd. The first thing the DNR did was ban baiting and feeding deer in the CWD zones to try to prevent the spread of the disease.

The other problem with feeding stations is that it artificially boosts the carrying capacity of the habitat. The population may survive, but then it continues to reproduce and the problem the next year becomes worse.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 11:41 AM
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Is there any way they could re-introduce their natural predators? that would control the population, no
The difference being, is predators go for the old, sick, weak whlie hunters go for the biggest strongest Bucks, therefore effecting the gene pool (destroying the biggest and strongest males , will weaken the gene pool IMO)
again, nature is so much better at balancing itself then man.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 11:46 AM
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But I don't think the issue is people's hostas, or even that the deer are encroaching on human habitation. It sounds like this is an area hosting many different types of wildlife and the deer are so overpopulated that they are encroaching on those other species habitats.

Feeding stations sound like a good idea, but they also may increase the spread of CWD and other cervine diseases. Like the 'mad cow' disease prion, once the prion responsible for CWD enters the environment, it is devilishly difficult to remove. We're fighting the spread of CWD in WI right now--a difficult task given the size of the herd. The first thing the DNR did was ban baiting and feeding deer in the CWD zones to try to prevent the spread of the disease.

The other problem with feeding stations is that it artificially boosts the carrying capacity of the habitat. The population may survive, but then it continues to reproduce and the problem the next year becomes worse.
Exactly, Hazel.

Feeding them can create even more issues.
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Old January 7th, 2010, 01:25 PM
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Except why cant deer find enough of their own natural food? The landscape has changed so much that there is very little area without 4 feet of snow and prairie grass. The capacity of the land that should hold thousands can now hold only a couple hundred. Insteading of fixing it, we reduce the number of wildlife. As our crap continues to be more important the number will have to be reduced to a geneticly impossible number, and then we have yet another endangered species. This is the time to change the destiny, not later, the problem, in reality is so much bigger. As we continue to encroach on nature it can only lead to a catastrophe. I do not feel our space, our over indulgent needs are so surperior that those to who it really belongs. . . This time they cull the herd by so many, next time more, cities farm grow, we cull more, i mean really is that a sustainable solution?

Ok, . .who was it that i can join in hugging a tree?
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Old January 7th, 2010, 01:53 PM
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I know this is waaaaaayyyy off topic and I may be bashed for it, but the only way to save our environment is to stop the human population growth. We are taking over too much of the animal's habitat.

As for the overpopulation of deer: In the true natural world without humans, the predators would keep the population in check, but of course where are all the wolves, cougars, and coyotes
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Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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  #84  
Old January 7th, 2010, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lUvMyLaB<3 View Post
Except why cant deer find enough of their own natural food? The landscape has changed so much that there is very little area without 4 feet of snow and prairie grass. The capacity of the land that should hold thousands can now hold only a couple hundred. Insteading of fixing it, we reduce the number of wildlife. As our crap continues to be more important the number will have to be reduced to a geneticly impossible number, and then we have yet another endangered species. This is the time to change the destiny, not later, the problem, in reality is so much bigger. As we continue to encroach on nature it can only lead to a catastrophe. I do not feel our space, our over indulgent needs are so surperior that those to who it really belongs. . . This time they cull the herd by so many, next time more, cities farm grow, we cull more, i mean really is that a sustainable solution?

Ok, . .who was it that i can join in hugging a tree?
so so true!!

And GG and I are holding a tree for you
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  #85  
Old January 8th, 2010, 10:19 AM
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i agree they shoud have managed this appropriatly before the woods were in danger but this area is a haven for migrating birds of all kinds and if they do not do something, that will disappear
Agree, never too late though to try & find a long-term management stragedy I/O culling year after year animal after animal

Birds main natural predator are cats ... are they next to be culled?
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  #86  
Old January 8th, 2010, 10:21 AM
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so so true!!

And GG and I are holding a tree for you
haha and now we are three
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  #87  
Old January 8th, 2010, 10:24 AM
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Agree, never too late though to try & find a long-term management stragedy I/O culling year after year animal after animal

Birds main natural predator are cats ... are they next to be culled?
Very few cats are actually good bird hunters, they normally get the very young or sick/injured ones.

I have seen more birds taken by hawks in the few years that I have lived in the country, then by all of my cats I have had all my life. I have only had one cat that was quite the hunter, he caught a young hawk who was in flight .
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Cat maid to:

Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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  #88  
Old January 8th, 2010, 10:25 AM
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I know this is waaaaaayyyy off topic and I may be bashed for it, but the only way to save our environment is to stop the human population growth. We are taking over too much of the animal's habitat.

As for the overpopulation of deer: In the true natural world without humans, the predators would keep the population in check, but of course where are all the wolves, cougars, and coyotes
Why would you get bashed it's not off topic and the truth
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Old January 8th, 2010, 10:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Very few cats are actually good bird hunters, they normally get the very young or sick/injured ones.

I have seen more birds taken by hawks in the few years that I have lived in the country, then by all of my cats I have had all my life. I have only had one cat that was quite the hunter, he caught a young hawk who was in flight .
Your referring to your cats who live indoor no? Too many strays to count that kill birds just to survive or eat their eggs, hawks too but humans hunt them down too keeping them incheck.
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  #90  
Old January 8th, 2010, 10:29 AM
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Why would you get bashed it's not off topic and the truth
Because there are a lot of people who don't believe the world environmental (including wild animal issues) problems are actually due to human overpopulation. I have spoken to people who get very upset when the topic comes up.
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Cat maid to:

Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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