Dog - Large Hematoma at Vets

[shibaboy]

I need to ask if this has happened to anyone else. My details will be lenghty but I have to give all the details.

My dog was not acting right, I was in the middle of changing his dog food and he was due for a distemper shot so I took him to the Vet for blood tests and a titer test.

I told the Vet about changing my dogs food from the Hills Prescription Low Calorie food he suggested I feed him. He asked me why I changed and I told him the quality wasnt good. The Vet told me that Hills does more testing on their food than almost all other dog foods, and that the amazing thing about the Low Calorie food is that it would actually change my dogs genetics to that of a thin dog. I was shocked, no one had told me that before, the Vet thought it was great that they could do that, I thought it was awful. Anyway, he said he would draw blood and call me with the results. But also my dogs colon was messed up because he was used to all the Fiber the Hills food had in it so he gave me meds for his colon and told me to add some fiber.

The tests came back and my dog has a serious infection which almost doubled his white cells and he gave me antibiotics. We took all the pills and my dog was acting back to his old self, so I took him back to the Vet to recheck his blood cells. They drew the blood, we got in the car and was driving home when I touched my dogs neck and there was a huge lump, smaller than a golf ball but not much. We ran back to the Vets, the Vet checked him. Then the Vet said he wanted to wait till we got the results back from the blood draw but he may want to draw blood again because he is concerned my dogs blood is too thin. We went through a complete list of what could thin my dogs blood but nothing I had given him would do this. I asked couldnt this have happened from a bad blood test. The Vet said yes this happens but usually the hematoma doesnt get nearly as large as the one my dog got. We went home the next day the Vet called and said the platelets are fine but that they noticed there are new platelets being developed. They dont have a test to show why this happens so he would still like to take another blood test to see if his blood is too thin.

I have to wonder if his blood is too thin, why wasn't it too thin three weeks ago, and can a dogs blood get thinned out in a three week period. Also, I wonder if the new platelets are being developed because of the dog food change? If the Hills dog food was changing his genetics, do new platelets develop when I take him off of the food because his genetics go back to what they were supposed to be? I have no idea and am just trying to put things together because now I dont know how I feel about the Vets advice. It is a huge deal for me to load my dog in the car, I have a terrible back and more important is my dog gets so upset that he is panting heavily for over an hour which I have to believe is hard on him. I also wonder if his blood pressure being sky high because he gets so upset at the Vets would have anything to do with the size of the hematoma?

Does anyone have any advice for me? Has anyone had a pet get a large Hematoma at the Vets without their blood being thin? My dog is acting better than he has in a long time. Since I changed him from Hills dog food, put him on Natural Balance, plus add the Missing Link, and give him steamed veggies at each meal, his potty is better than ever, his breathe doesnt make your eyes tear, he isn't scratching as much, he is peppy, energetic, etc.

I would appreciate any help or information I can get. Does anyone know a Vet I can send this info to so I could get another opinion. I am willing to pay for their time. I just want to feel confident that either my dog does need to go for another blood test and go through the trauma, or yes, a Hematoma can get that large without his blood being thin, and yes his blood can thin out in a three week period. Thank you for your help.

[hazelrunpack]

Hmmmm....a food had better not change the genetics of a dog--that would make it a mutagen and it would be highly unethical for anyone, much less a vet, to market it and/or prescribe it for a dog!

It is possible for a dog to get anemic in three weeks' time, but you'd notice a drop in his activity level at the very least.

I agree with a second opinion. If you want to start out with the vet that donates his time to the board, send a private message to him--his username is Dr Lee and he's very knowledgeable. I believe he hails from somewhere in AZ, too!

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by shibaboy

The tests came back and my dog has a serious infection which almost doubled his white cells and he gave me antibiotics.

What is the name of the meds you were giving? I would suspect the antibiotics would be a more likely factor than the food change

[shibaboy]

Hazelrunpack and Growler, Thank you for your resonse. I believe the exact word he used was "genome". All of this is way over my head but this is what I understood the Vet was telling me. That the food actually changes the dogs genome to be that of a thin dog. When I asked why my dog didn't lose weight on the dog food he said if I gave my dog a bite of any other type of food except the Hills dog food, it would interfere with the way the dog food was supposed to work on the dog. All I know is it scared the heck out of me and I was not impressed at all, I was determined to get my dog off of that food if it took me years to do. I will contact Dr.Lee on Sunday. When the Vet told me he was concerned that my dogs blood was not coagulating properly, is that the same as him being anemic? Sorry I dont know much about blood.

I do not remember the name of the antibiotic and I didnt save the bottle. I dont usually throw his med bottles away but for some reason I didn't think I would need it anymore.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Coagulating means the blood is not clotting properly, generally happens with low platelet levels as the platelets are what help stop wounds from bleeding and wound closing & healing. Platelets are the clear fluid part of blood.

Anaemia happens when there is not enough red blood cells produced by the body. Red blood cells transport oxygen throughout the body, when anaemic one becomes very tired and weak & there are other symptoms as well.

Hematomas can occur as a result of injury from when the blood was drawn, though it doesn't happen often. If the needle was withdrawn at a different angle from when it was inserted nicking the vein again on the way out & the blood is not coagulating properly or if when the needle was withdrawn the spot wasn't held long enough for the bleeding to stop and there is an issue with clotting I can see why a hematoma would occur in that area.

Is the antibiotic name written on your invoice from that vet visit? Or you can call the vets office & have them check the file for the name.

The explaination about the food is very weird and sounds like "scare tactics" to keep you purchasing the food. This type of food is not going to change the DNA of the dog who eats it.

From the Hills site for canine w/d:

Note: For successful weight control, full client cooperation must be obtained and all food intake must be strictly controlled

Providing low calorie, high fiber treats such as Prescription Diet® Canine Treats helps ensure owner compliance

There is nothing on that page about the food changing genomes or changing the body type, only Hills repeatedly stating full owner compliance is a must for any weight loss to occur in the dog.

[hazelrunpack]

Frankly, shibaboy, if a vet told me that a food was changing my dog's genome I would change vets. He's either uninformed or using scare tactics as growler stated...

Not sure why I came up with anemia in my last post I think I was still busy shaking my head over that 'genetic change' thing... Sorry about the confusion.

growler's right, low platelets can promote bleeding. Platelet production is not usually impacted by the choice of food. If he's on a good diet, he's getting all the nutrition he needs to keep his body functioning properly. So if the platelets are out of norm, there's usually something else going on.

When the vet determined that the WBC were elevated, did he notice then that his platelets were low? Just wondering because we have ticks here and many of the tick-borne diseases affect platelet level. Ehrlichiosis and anaplasmosis both can lower platelet levels. It might be something worth checking into.

Was the anti-biotic doxycycline, by any chance?

At any rate, I'd sure be wanting to get my dog checked out ASAP by someone new.

[shibaboy]

The food was the Hills Prescription Reduced Diet w/Chicken and I would think that all the Vets that sell this brand also sells this food. I certainly dont want anything else to do with any Hills product. Whether or not what the Vet said is false, true or scare tactic, just seeing the difference in my dogs breathe and potty is all I need to confirm that.

When the Vet first took my dogs blood and told me about the WBC his platelets were normal, and the second time he took his blood this platelets were normal but he said they detected new platelets and can tell they are new because they are larger in size. He said besides the fact there are new platelets the results are normal. He did not mention if they detected new platelets the first time they drew the blood. As far as tick diseases I give my dog Heartguard medicine every month, does this protect him from all tick diseases?

I have looked for my invoice to get the name of the antibiotic and it is not in his medical file I keep on him. I was pretty upset that day and if I kept it I did not put it where I can find it again. I will call the Vet on Monday and get the name of the antibiotic.

The Vet I have been using has taken care of my dog for five years, and has operated on his knees three times. I have never had a hint of any bad feelings about him and this really upsets me that he isnt thinking about my dogs best interests and health. How does one find a Vet that they know is going to be any better than the one they just left. I left the previous one because I didnt have good feelings about them, and went to this one. It takes me 45 minutes to get my dog to him one way. Is there anything you look for when trying a Vet?

Thank you for your time and replys.

[t.pettet]

Sorry you and your poor pooch have had a rough time lately but something I have learned (the hard way) is that any future vet you take your dog to must be able to speak in layman's terms and be open to discuss all meds & answer all your queries point by point. One vet I used to go to a very long time ago would give me 1/2 hr. per visit and I felt so rushed that I had to leave out very pertinent questions and would come away totally confused. This was not in the best interests of my pets and their health concerns so after 2 appointments I found a great clinic with endless patience and was only charged for 1 visit even if we ran over the slated time.

[Dr Lee]

I think there are a couple of issues here. So let me deal with the first one.

1) Science Diet and Genetics

What they vet was referring to was the study of Nutrigenomics. The idea is that diet and nutrition can interact with the DNA with regard to what genes are expressed and how they are expressed. Nutrients can stimulate some proteins and metabolites to be expressed versus others. These differences lead to what is called ‘dietary signatures’. Nutrigenomics evaluates how these signatures interact with health and disease. Much of the study is focused on slowing or reversing some of the changes that are associated with aging. Dietary changes have been shown to decrease oxidative and inflammatory changes in the body. Some of the focus has been on supplementing the diets with antioxidants, vitamins and omega 3 fatty acids. Their diet food r/d utilizes nutrigenomics through the supplementation of L-carnitine, lysine and fiber. The gene expression pattern of an overweight dog changes to look more consistent with the gene expression pattern of a lean and healthy dog. This is above and beyond just the studies that prove that the diet promotes weight loss. So the vet was right, when he stated that no other company spends this type of money and time to evaluate and improve their diets to promote health. Does this mean that Science Diet is the end all and be all of dog food? No. But with that said, Science Diet has some remarkable insights which they employ into their diets.

So can a diet change the genes of a pet? No; not unless it wants to be considered a toxic substance! Some dietary nutrients however do alter the expression of those genes and that may influence health and disease.

Do all vets recommend Science Diet because they want to make money off of it? As a former practice owner I will tell you that the LOWEST margin of profit comes from food sales. You make more money from pretty much anything else! (you make more money off of a nail trim than a bag of food and it is WAY easier to sell) The food is very expensive to buy and the mark up is low unless you don’t want anyone to buy it. Furthermore you can now buy prescription pet foods online and have them delivered to your house. Some of the other dog foods have good ingredients and some good ideas but remember veterinarians are science geeks – we need to see the proof most of the time. And when we talk proof, we mean data – not just what we see in the 50 dogs that we prescribe a certain food to. We like to look at things like the gene expression signatures and try to understand it. Luckily as time goes on, many of the veterinarians are also health conscious on a ‘holistic’ side too. For this reason Science Diet have only a couple of diets that have artificial preservatives in it – most all the diet lines are preserved with a mixture of tocopherol (soy bean extract and a source of vitamin E), rosemary extract and citric acid. With that said, due to the testing requirements and volume of product, the brand does not have the purity in some of the organic ingredients as many of the smaller companies do. It is an individual choice. For a healthy dog, I recommend that you chose a high quality food that your pet 1) feels good on and 2) enjoys.

2) Hematoma.
My understanding is that we had 2 blood draws. The first was without a noticeable hematoma and the second blood draw resulted in a huge hematoma. Even in normal dogs, there is always a risk for a hematoma after venipuncture. And yes, sometimes, this hematoma can be huge! If the pet was nervous and had a high blood pressure, if the pet moved at the wrong time and created a larger than normal hole in the vein, if the technician placed pressure to the incorrect site (which can done with the most diligent of techs - sometimes because the dog turns his or her head) or if there was a combination of all of these. Now with that said… if there is a coagulopathy (problem with clotting blood), the risk of hematoma is much much higher. The best method to evaluate for this is to do what the veterinarian said and run a coagulation test.

Why wouldn’t you be able to know if there was a coagulopathy from the blood test that was run? Well sometime you do. If the platelet number is too low or the protein level is too low, then a coagulopathy can be diagnosed. However, this can miss other types of coagulopathies, such as those from an inadequate level of prothrombotic proteins. For this, an additional blood tube (reason for another blood draw) is required. This tube contains an anticoagulant that can be reversed at the lab and then the blood can be tested for blood clot formation ability.

Should you have the other test done? And with this vet? I cannot answer this for you.

This test does help determine if a coagulopathy exists or not. The good news is that the risk of hematoma again is low – the vet will usually have the technician place pressure for a much longer than normal time on the blood draw site. A buccal mucosal bleeding time or toe nail bleeding time can also be done in the hospital to look for coagulation. Any of these still require another vet visit though. I would recommend that you ask your veterinarian what the level of concern regarding a possible coagulopathy is or is it being recommended to ‘cover the bases’. (Every doctor that wishes to practice good medicine, ‘covers his or her bases’. )

I hope that helps.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Shibaboy is your dog still on Rimadyl?

Rimadyl states to use caution in a dog with bleeding problems, and if giving with other NSAIDS including Aspirin.

I can't find anything that says why exactly to be cautious with bleeding problems but Aspirin is well known as a blood thinnner.

Originally Posted by Dr Lee

Their diet food r/d utilizes nutrigenomics through the supplementation of L-carnitine, lysine and fiber. The gene expression pattern of an overweight dog changes to look more consistent with the gene expression pattern of a lean and healthy dog. This is above and beyond just the studies that prove that the diet promotes weight loss.

But there's very little actual protein in it, chicken being the only meat is the 6th ingredient. Chicken by-product meal and chicken liver flavour don't count as proper protein sources

Ingredients

Ground Whole Grain Corn, Corn Gluten Meal, Chicken By-Product Meal, Powdered Cellulose, Soybean Meal, Soybean Mill Run, Chicken Liver Flavor, Chicken, Dried Beet Pulp, Soybean Oil, Iron Oxide, DL-Methionine, Potassium Chloride, L-Lysine, Iodized Salt, Dicalcium Phosphate, Vitamin E Supplement, vitamins (L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Vitamin E Supplement, Niacin, Thiamine Mononitrate, Vitamin A Supplement, Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Riboflavin, Folic Acid, Vitamin D3 Supplement), Choline Chloride, minerals (Manganese Sulfate, Ferrous Sulfate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Calcium Iodate, Sodium Selenite), Taurine, L-Carnitine, preserved with Mixed Tocopherols & Citric Acid, Beta-Carotene, Rosemary Extract.

[Dr Lee]

Good idea on the NSAID question.

As far as protein in the Science Diet. I know that the veterinary nutritionists state at recent lectures that many of the over the counter foods have protein levels that are higher than recommended. Some of the other veterinary diets like Eukanuba, Purina and Royal Canin do have higher protein levels in some of their diets.

Honestly I wish there was more proper studies and research being done in the nutritional dog and cat world. Unfortunately Iams Eukanuba seems to have made some dramatic cut backs along with the others. Science Diet has more data and information than anyone else. I would love other companies to get into the game. There are some holistic diets that are great but the veterinarians need some prescription type diets with data. Unfortunately for diets that are geared towards clinical diseases, the companies cannot make them for over the counter consumption without failing to meet some of the requirements that are needed for them to address the disease that it is labeled for. JMHO.

Always great to have a discussion on this though.

[kandy]

Thank you for the explanation on what this vet meant by the Hill's products changing the genes. I don't doubt that Hill's conducts tons of research to find solutions to health problems in our pets. What I have a problem with is why the basic diet consists of sub-par ingredients? Why not start with a biologically appropriate, high quality diet and then add the compounds/supplements that have been proven to counteract specific medical conditions? IMO it's not the food itself that alleviates symptoms, it's the additives.

Shibaboy - you said that this vet has operated on your dogs knees 3x. What kind of surgery?

[shibaboy]

First, I want to thank everyone that took the time to respond to my questions with their knowledge and thoughts.

Dr. Lee I cannot tell you how much you have put my mind at ease with your answers. The Vet that I have used for the past five years has been so unbelieveably accessable, and has always seemed concerned about my dogs health, that to think otherwise about him was very sad. But, when he talked about the dog food, and then the Hematoma occurred, then he mentioned checking my dogs blood to see if it was coagulating properly all put me into overload. I had to confirm what he was saying with another Vet. My dog and I have been through quite a lot together, I love him dearly and his health is a priority for me

First, the Vet always takes his time when we go for office visits. Apparently, even to the point of discussing the Hills dog food in such detail that I mistook his meaning and of course this is not in my area of expertise. The Vet never asked me not to change foods, he said that was up to me, he only wanted me to add more Fiber to the new food because the new food had less Fiber and was upsetting my dogs colon. I decided to try The Missing Link. I stopped by his office, he came out and looked at the product. He said they had improved the product since he last saw it and thought it would be great to use. (I did not have an appoinment, I popped in while in the area.) When I go for office visits I have never been rushed through the visit. He will take the time to discuss whatever questions in detail that I may have. He has told me more than one time to pick up the phone if I have a question he said that is what he is there for, and he calls me back the same day I leave a message.

The three leg operations he did on my dog were two torn knee ligaments, and the third one was arthritis on his knee cap. When the Vet told me the third operation was needed he said he would charge me a less than the usual. The operation cost was $1400.00 and he charged me $500. He knows my husband is retired, I am disabled and we had just paid for the two knee operations in the last three years.

My dog is still on Rimadyl but the Vet and I went through each medication my dog is on and the Vet saw no problem with him continuing the Rimadyl, also my dog does not take any asprin. The Vet said that my dogs platelets are not low, but there are new ones, and he does not know why. He didn't want me to live in fear but he said he did want to run another blood test to make sure it was coagulating properly. My dog gets so upset at the Vets, his blood pressure has to be on the moon, this is one reason I make sure the Vet trip is necessary for him to make, sending his blood pressure up cannot be good for him.

I think I have covered and answered all questions but if I have missed something of importance, please let me know so I can get the answer. I will talk to my Vet about the importance of the test, and I will have it done, I may wait till his next visit but this depends on the answers I get. Setting all of this aside, I am very happy my dog is on a better food, his breathe is fresh, his potty better, The Missing Link has helped his fur and itching, and it has only been a little over one month, he loves the steamed veggies, string beans, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots. I have to keep food in his stomach due to the Rimadyl so a little at breakfast and lunch, he eats the veggies before anything else he likes them so much.

Thanks again to everyone and Dr. Lee, I think you have lowered my blood pressure, I have been very concerned and didn't know what to do or believe.

[kandy]

I'm glad that both you and your dog are feeling better.

Out of curiousity, were the surgeries for torn ligaments done one on each knee, or was both surgeries on one knee? And what type of repair was done - did they try to replace the ligament? I'm always interested in that because my newfie girl had surgery to correct a ruptured ACL.

[shibaboy]

kandy, there was a surgery done on each knee. I am not an expert but will try to explain how they made the repair. There was some type of object place where the ligament was to hold the knee in place while the tissue grew around that object, I believe the tissue growth becomes the ligament. I was told they dont actually replace a ligament with another ligament. I have talked to many pet parents that have been through the same operation with their pets. Some have had the operation done the same as my dog, some have had pins and rods placed in the knee where the ligament was. One lady I talked to actually have a formed brace made that her dog wears when he is more active that supports the knee on impact. The dogs ligament is torn but not completely so they have decided to support the leg and knee in place of an operation, at least that is how she explained it to me. I know in my head how the operation my dog had was done, but I dont have the medical terms to explain or describe it to you very well, sorry. I hope your newfie girl is healed and back in action.

[kandy]

I understand - your dog had an extracapsular repair on both knees. Because my dog is a large breed, she had a TPLO done. This is where they change the angle of how the knee sits on the tibia so that no ligament is required - the bone is cut and positioned in the desired angle and then a plate is used to hold the bone together while it heals. My newfie girl is fine - she had the surgery in 2007.

I hope your dog is still feeling better.