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Old April 14th, 2011, 05:57 PM
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FurryMom FurryMom is offline
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New to raw

Hi everyone!
I'm new to this forum and new to feeding raw. I started feeding our dachshund puppy (13lbs and 9 months old) on raw about 3 weeks ago. Right now he is only eating chicken quarters. He gets the leg one night and the rest the next night. I have offered chicken liver and he won't touch it. I know that chicken quarters aren't a balanced diet and don't really know where to go from here. He is so stubborn ! He won't touch the meat or bone with his paws. He simply refuses to "hold" it. When I hold the leg for him he eats the bone and tears off pieces of meat, then spits them out. I have to cut the meat off the bone to get him to eat it. After he finishes the meat I give him his bone. I bought 2 cans of sardines, but have no idea how much to give him. I'm sure the whole can would not be good for him, but feel like just a few wouldn't be enough for him. I have read and read, until my eyes are crossed and get the idea of feeding raw, but no one has really suggested any ways to get a dog to hold his meat and tear the meat off the bone to eat it, not spit it out! If I lay the leg on his towel he looks at me like I am crazy. I can't feed him only chicken much longer and am at my wits end with what to feed next. I know beef and green beef tripe, liver, hearts, turkey necks, gizzards and other kinds of stuff. I don't know what kind of bone-in beef to feed him. I'm scared he will break a tooth on cow bones. I am going to go to a butcher tomorrow to see what organ meats I can get. Does anyone have suggestions on how to get him to eat them? Could I blend them with something and puree them, maybe some veggies? I don't want to go back to kibble. He started not eating the Lotus, Canidea and Innova I was feeding him. The breeder had him on Science Diet and I refused to feed him corn based food . I'm sure I have given more food away than he has ate. I have so many questions and I'm at a loss . He is true to his dachshund temperament! Please help me !!


Thanks,
Amanda
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Old April 14th, 2011, 06:23 PM
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LavenderRott LavenderRott is offline
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There is a business called "My Pet Carnivore" that sells balanced, ground meats in 1 and 2 pound packages for very reasonable prices. All of their meats, unless otherwise specified are ground with muscle meat, bone and organ meat so they are complete. You would have to check to be sure but I do believe that they deliver to your area once a month. If you meet them at a delivery point, then the "shipping" cost is only $10. They have a fine ground option for several different types of meat if your pup doesn't like to chew up whole bones.

Eggs are also a good source of calcium - a whole, uncooked egg including the shell.

You could also google Lew Olsen. She is a canine nutritionist. She has a website and her newsletters are VERY informative.
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Old April 14th, 2011, 06:42 PM
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I wouldn't be too anxious to start the liver just yet - I'd introduce more proteins first Besides, Loki hates liver and kidney.. and anything else closely resembling organ meat. We freeze bits of it and he downs them frozen with some cream cheese Spoiled boy!

I also wouldn't recommend any kind of bone-in beef meals - maybe a beef rib for a rec bone, but my beef meals are all boneless; whether it's ground beef or just roasts, etc.

How many lbs (or oz) per day are you feeding right now and how did you calculate it? You can do the same for the other proteins you will introduce.

Unfortunately I don't have suggestions for eating of the chicken quarters - if you wanted, you could buy a cheap grinder and try grinding them up and seeing if he prefers it that way?
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Old April 14th, 2011, 07:11 PM
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He doesn't have a problem eating bones. He loves the chicken bones. It's the meat and organs he has issues with. I guess he is a texture eater, like me . I will try freezing the organ meats and serving them up with some cottage cheese. He loves yogurt and cottage cheese. He will devour the meat if we go to the dog park. He gets ravenous! No suggestions on getting him to touch his food with his paws. He is so dainty! Jeez !
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Old April 14th, 2011, 07:13 PM
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Oh yeah, I don't weigh his food. I read that a piece of meat about the size of their head is about right. I give him as much as he will eat. When he stops eating the meat I give him the bone. Feeding him is such an ordeal. But, I won't give up! Mommy knows what's best!!
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Old April 14th, 2011, 07:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FurryMom View Post
Oh yeah, I don't weigh his food. I read that a piece of meat about the size of their head is about right. I give him as much as he will eat. When he stops eating the meat I give him the bone. Feeding him is such an ordeal. But, I won't give up! Mommy knows what's best!!
I've never heard that before - the head and meat thing..

I have always gone with the 2-3% body weight (although I know it is different for puppies - I can't help out there). We have Loki on more than the 3% though because he's still a skinny skinny boy. He eats anywhere from 3-5 lbs per day!
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Old April 14th, 2011, 08:12 PM
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I think the head and meat thing is so they don't try to swallow their food whole. I really just let Bailey eat until he won't eat anymore. He isn't an over eater so that's not a problem.

WOW!! 3-5lbs a day!!! That puts my little dachshund to shame!
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Old April 18th, 2011, 05:02 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Hi All

It's very great to constantly see new raw enthusiasts make the 'switch'.

Amanda, we have put so many dogs on raw, I can't even begin to tell you, but I will tell you this. Hungry dogs don't starve themselves. if you dog won't eat, put the food away and wait till next meal time.

You can try to yummy it up with fish oil or sardine oil smear on it, or sprinkle with real parmeasan cheese, or smear on butter ( which is fine because it's a fat) - even a grated boiled egg

Every single dog we've pulled out of a puppy mill or shelter, dogs who KNOW starvation, have to date, NEVER refused or looked sideways at raw food.

And it's ok to feed a variety of foods including organs. What you need to remember is that if your dog caught a squirrel, it would have two kidneys, only one liver and one heart. Same holds true of your dog caught a giraffe or a water buffalo, so the organs should be proportionate to the amount of meat you feed.

Best of luck.
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; April 18th, 2011 at 05:31 PM.
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Old April 22nd, 2011, 09:43 PM
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Bailey is getting better with the raw diet. He has been on it for a month now. He is eating all the meat with no problem. I still can't get him to touch the meat and bone. I gave him chicken liver and chicken gizzard tonight (for the first time) with a bone that still had a little meat and skin left on it. He ate it all. I had to add cottage cheese to the liver and gizzard to get him to eat it. I think he hates the texture of liver, I can't really blame him .

I have a question about organ meat night. I am pretty sure you should only give the organs of one animal at a time, but how much do you give? I will give him organ meat once a week. Do I give him as much as I would with a normal meal?

I have some tripe, but I'm not so sure that it's the right kind. I don't think I can find green tripe at a butcher here. I'm fairly certain they don't hack the animals up there (excuse the crudeness), so I wouldn't be able to get them to save some for me. I have read that there is some green tripe in a can. Is that just as good? I also read that it stinks to high heaven!

Also, I have some canned sardines in water and was wondering how much to give him? I haven't opened the can so I can't say how big they are. Do I give him the whole can? Half the can? I read the ingredients and there is salt in there. I checked their website, since the nutritional facts aren't on the can. For one can there is 230mg of sodium and 8 grams of fat. Fish is a little harder for me to grasp than the other meats. I want him to get the proper amount of Omega 3 and Omega 6 fatty acids that he needs. I'm also afraid he won't eat fish.

About eggs. Do you feed one egg as a meal or do you mix one with something else. Cooked? Raw? With shell? Without shell?

I'm sure I'm over thinking this, but I don't want to harm my baby by trying to do the best for him. I'm a worrier, I can't help myself. I love my baby boy and want to do the right thing.



Thanks in advance and I'm sorry I was long-winded.
Amanda
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Old April 23rd, 2011, 11:12 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
I have a question about organ meat night.
Again, what you need to remember is that if your dog caught a squirrel, it would have two kidneys, only one liver and one heart. Same holds true of your dog caught a giraffe or a water buffalo, so the organs should be proportionate to the amount of meat you feed. So roughly only 10% of your overall meal should be organ meat. Please take note that heart is muscle meat, not "organ" meat.

You can just rinse off the sardines in water.

Eggs - raw eggs should be served with prudence. They are extremely high in vitamin A, and unstable biotin when raw, so only a couple of times per week is best. \If you want to serve them daily, consider boiling them. By boiling them you stablize the biotin and reduce the risk of overdose. In the wild, they would not have constant access to eggs, only during a specific time of year - or at chance opportunities with a farmer, so their own intake would be limited as well.

Green tripe. If you can't find fresh, raw, green tripe locally, you can find it in cans at a better pet stores.
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Old April 23rd, 2011, 11:27 AM
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Thanks Merlin!! I think it would be easier for me to serve up some organs with every meal. I look at it similar to what you have said. One carcass with a few organs. I am going the Frankenprey route. So chicken meat, bones, liver and gizzards. I need to bone up (heheh) on my animal anatomy. I haven't looked for hearts or other internal stuff. I wouldn't give Bailey more than one egg per week, if that. He loves cooked eggs, even though he has only had a small taste. Does boiling them take away any nutritional value? Maybe if I mixed in the egg with the organs he would eat the organs more readily, something to try.

I haven't gotten any real answers on beef or pork. I think I might stay away form pork all together. But, with beef, he won't eat the bones, he just kind of gnaws on them. So far I have only given him rib bones that were cut pretty small with the piece of meat. Those are pretty fatty so I won't feed those as one meal. I'm afraid that beef bones are too hard for him and end up taking them away. I'm scared he will break a tooth. So if he isn't getting beef bones with his beef meal, what would be appropriate? He doesn't seem to get diarrhea with just a beef/no bone meal. So maybe I'm over thinking, yet again.
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Old April 24th, 2011, 04:52 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Howdy

I don't know your fear of beef and pork, but you need to include those in your menu. You can just serve chicken. The broader and scopier your meat choices, the more likely you are to come close to fulfilling your dog's nutritional needs. All meat is good meat. You can shy away because of the bone issue. As long as whatever you give your dog is 80% meat and 10% bone, it really doesn't matter what type of meat you serve up.

It's been proven that dogs who break teeth would have also very likely have broken them on rawhide sticks, wood, and other objects. Some dogs have teeth that are very striated and it is these striations the make for broken teeth. This is a genetic trait, and it doesn't take bones to break those teeth, it can happen on virtually any hard object ( so that you know).

The part of the egg that is nutritional is the yolk. It contains valuable fat, and whether it's cooked or not won't make much of a difference. Fat is fat whether raw or cooked.
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Old April 26th, 2011, 06:18 PM
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Thanks Merlin!! You have been very helpful in this journey! I will serve pork. I already serve beef, but Bailey isn't eating the bones. He gnaws on them and then gives up. I'm just not sure how to remedy the bone ratio on those nights that he eats beef. Are pork bones as hard as beef bones?

Bailey loves fish!! I gave him a meal that contained a can of sardines, rinsed off, and a hard boiled egg. When he was done, which was record time for his eating, he looked at me like "is that it"?

Also, he is eating his chicken better. I'm still cutting it up, because he still won't touch his food . Maybe one day.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 09:29 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Calcium

If you're really not sure or comfortable with the amount of calcium your dog is getting, you can always crush up the eggshell of your boiled egg and mix it in with green tripe. That should solve your problem.

Also, the gnawing does afford for some calcium. Maybe his jaw simply isn't strong enough to work the bones you are giving him, but at least he's gnawing , and that works the gum line, cleans tartar, and strenghtens jaw muscles ( everything good about that), and if he's eating chicken several times a week, he's getting his bone ration anyways.

Bones whether pork or beef and essentially definied by their size and purpose. Weight bearing bones, such as the tibia and fibula are going to be far more dense and strong, simply because of the task set before them. Ribs are easier, softer and more cartilege like, hence easier to consume.. but let's face it... the tibia of a mouse is going to be easier to consume, than the tibia of a giraffe, simply due to size alone, so common sense will tell you that if you have a boston terrier, realistically don't expect him to be able to masticate the same bone that a huge mouthed mastiff could manage. You have a doxy, they have small, little mouths and he's still a young guy.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 07:28 PM
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Thanks Merlin. I'm actually concerned he is getting too much calcium. The bone and meat ratio seems way off to me. The leg of a chicken seems to have more bone on it than meat. Tonight is beef night and I'm not going to worry about giving him any bone. All I have right now are steaks that were on manager's special at the grocery store here. I haven't been able to find a raw food group to be able to get much more variety than what I can find at the grocery store or the butcher shop (they have limited selection). I'm not sure that I even need enough food to worry about finding a raw food group.

Maybe I shouldn't worry too much about bone on beef night. His poopies are chalky and with very little substance. I really hope I get the hang of this soon. I just don't know where you guys get the chicken backs, necks and all the other doggie yummies you are able to find.
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Old April 27th, 2011, 11:32 PM
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MH has given you great advice, FurryMom. I just wanted to add that you can feed whole frozen sardines instead of the canned type if you want to stick to raw. Usually found in the seafood department of a grocery store.

Do you have a poultry store or butcher that sells poultry in your area? I find these are the best places to get good quality meat at the best prices. Rather than carcasses, you can buy whole chickens with organ included (ask to have them cut into pieces for you) so that you needn't worry so much about the bone:meatrgan ratio when feeding chicken.

I have to add, when our guys choose to not eat a cut of something they normally do, then I suspect the meat is off. There was a time I bought fresh chicken from a slaughter house nearby and they refused to touch it. Dh wouldn't let me throw it in the garbage so I decided to cook it up for them. The meat swelled during cooking and was next to impossible to cut with a knife . I've since learned to trust them when they refuse to eat something, especially if I've gotten it from a new place.
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Old April 28th, 2011, 05:36 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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if your dog's poops are chalky, then indeed, he's getting far too much bone.
instead of a leg, offer the thigh part perhaps, or add cubes of meat/fish. Poops should not be white, nor grey and shouldn't be chalky.
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Old April 29th, 2011, 09:23 PM
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Thank you so much for all the help! I will get the hang of this. I will add a lot more meat to his diet. His poop is still very small and whitish. When he has beef his poop is more substantial and dark, kind of weird.

Is feeding Cornish game hens the same as chicken? What about turkey meat and bones, too similar to chicken to count as different? The only meats that I have readily available are chicken, turkey, beef, pork, Cornish game hens and canned sardines. I asked for whole sardines in the fish department and they didn't have any. I haven't tried the International Markets, yet. They will probably have more of a variety of meats that I can't find in the regular grocery store.

Bailey will need more at meal time, since he is playing outside a lot now. The weather is turning really nice, when it's not raining! The hole he is digging in the front yard makes him hungry and tired. I think he is trying to dig to the center of the earth.
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