Odd Behavior. Suggestions?

[Bailey_]

As some of you know I'm currently working with an inter-dog aggressive female black lab.

I regularly switch up the dogs I bring to her class (only ever well-minded, extremley obedient dogs) and one in particular is another black lab named Cooper.

At this point in her training, Andi knows Cooper very well. But tonight during their lesson I noticed an incident that I have seen once or twice before over the course of the past couple months.

She will react when Cooper pee's, or goes number two. By 'react', I mean if she is in a sit/stay and notices that he's peeing, she'll get up and lunge towards him. No barking/growling.

Sometimes she'll just do a little head lunge towards him, and until redirected will give him the 'stare down'.

I have a few theories as to her behavior, but I want to make sure I'm not on the wrong track. Thoughts?

[SbrbnHstlr]

To help me understand better, do/did you stop Andi after she rushed over to him while he did his business?
I'm assuming Andi would have just wanted to mark over Coopers relief area. Which is normal for a dog. Male or Female, fixed or unfixed dogs will mark over other scents.

I wouldn't be too worried about the whole situation.
I would be concerned if Andi decides to rush over with her Hackles up and Teeth Snarling the next time it happens.

[Bailey_]

She was on leash, Cooper was on leash, they were probably ten feet apart at the time. I was talking with Andi's handler, and tonight when it happened she was in a sit/stay and we were discussing other things. Cooper sniffed around, when he started to pee she immediatley jumped up and did her classic "Andi move" where she will (yes, hackles up) approach a dog from the side.

There was however no growling/snarling/teeth bared.

The first time it happened she did more of a head lunge at Cooper, while jumping slightly (front feet left the ground, back feet stayed put) but she didn't really try to approach. Tonight was different, which concerned me.

I never thought about marking over the scent though. This makes sense, but I'm not really convinced this is what she was doing.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Was the territory neutral to both dogs? Or was it in a place where one dog spends more time than the other?

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Is this class always in the same place?

Could be that she's irritated about a dog marking in what she perceives as her territory. HE may not be marking per se, but he's leaving his scent in her area.

Other than that I'm not sure why it would distress her.

[Bailey_]

The first time it happened the dogs were in a location that neither had been before.
Tonight we were at this same location where it happened the first time, just in a different area - new to both dogs. So basically the environment was neutral to both dogs each time.

Andi is very obsessed about controlling her environment, especially other dogs (high-energy seriously bothers her). I thought that this reaction may have been because Cooper unexpectedly started sniffing around to pee and Andi percieved it differently (what do you all think about that?) - or possibly she's just extremley territorial/protective about her owners and their 'space', which I haven't ruled out as we have never gone to the owners home turf. I've previously always had them bring her to different outdoor locations where I will meet them.

I know. I'm stumped. I don't know if this behavior is concerning. She's not been allowed to approach Cooper after he pee's...I'm thinking now I might need to let her to assess if this is actually aggression, or just an intense reaction to wanting to remark the spot?

[MyBirdIsEvil]

or just an intense reaction to wanting to remark the spot?

It could be both. Either one suggests she tends to become quickly territorial.

Some dogs do not have to be in an environment for long to want to claim it as theirs.

My mother in law has a highly aggressive dog that immediately upon entering ANY new environment will mark it and then attempt to attack any dogs that come into that space. This is an extreme case, but the dog you're working with could have a similar thing going on.

Does she tend to be very alpha? Tail up, head up, trying to immediately control the situation when coming into contact with other dogs and reacting aggressively if they don't immediately submit?

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil

It could be both. Either one suggests she tends to become quickly territorial.

Some dogs do not have to be in an environment for long to want to claim it as theirs.

My mother in law has a highly aggressive dog that immediately upon entering ANY new environment will mark it and then attempt to attack any dogs that come into that space. This is an extreme case, but the dog you're working with could have a similar thing going on.

Does she tend to be very alpha? Tail up, head up, trying to immediately control the situation when coming into contact with other dogs and reacting aggressively if they don't immediately submit?

This sounds exactly like Andi, yes. Except that she'd become aggressive if she even saw another dog approaching on the same sidewalk. Her reaction time when I first saw her was zero to ninety in .1 second. (She was also in a prong collar and her owners had no clue how to properly use it, or to redirect her focus. She now wears a martingale safely and can sit/stay and focus on her owners while another strange dog passes her, but we've done a lot of desensitizing her and positive association towards other dogs to achieve this, and she isn't at a place where I would say she's rehabilitated. We could never continue past another dog on the sidewalk yet.)

** And now that you mentioned it, I do notice that Andi will immediatley pee upon getting out of the car after a few minutes. I've always just figured she had to go the bathroom regardless, but now...hmm...not so sure that's *all* it has been. Thanks for the suggestions/help on this guys, I appreciate it! It helps to talk it out.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Except that she'd become aggressive if she even saw another dog approaching on the same sidewalk.

I would almost venture to say that's a good thing. Not the behavior, but the fact that she's at least somewhat predictable. But she may never be 100% trustworthy around other dogs if she's territorial to that point.

My mother in law's dog shows no warning signs. He goes from just sitting there, neutral body language, to attacking. He's predictable in the fact that we know if he has access to a dog he will attack it at some point, but unpredictable in the fact that he shows no warning signs before attack. Years ago I thought I was making some progress with him. We were taking him on some walks with my dog and he was doing ok, albeit with a lot of persistence and then at some point he just lost it and attacked my dog with no warning while on leash. He's 110 lbs and we're just lucky my husband is a big guy because he doesn't like to release once he has hold of another dog. I could never trust him from that point on and knew there wasn't really anything we could do with him other than 100% keep him away from other dogs.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

or possibly she's just extremley territorial/protective about her owners and their 'space', which I haven't ruled out as we have never gone to the owners home turf. I've previously always had them bring her to different outdoor locations where I will meet them.

So Andi's owner was there? Can you pick up Andi and take her without the owners to the location to meet Cooper and try it again without her people there? See if she has a different reaction.

Does she seem possesive of you at all as well? Any reaction if Cooper or any other dogs go up to you while Andi is there? If so, can you get a third party neutral person to take Andi to the park while you observe from a short distance?

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by growler

So Andi's owner was there? Can you pick up Andi and take her without the owners to the location to meet Cooper and try it again without her people there? See if she has a different reaction.

Does she seem possesive of you at all as well? Any reaction if Cooper or any other dogs go up to you while Andi is there? If so, can you get a third party neutral person to take Andi to the park while you observe from a short distance?

Yeah, Andi's owners are always at the lesson and she definitely behaves better for the man compared to the woman.

Hmm. I haven't really noticed any possessive issues towards myself or the owners, though I will certainly take Andi by herself and assess the situation. Thanks for that thought!
I often have the wife or the husband walk some of the dogs that I bring to their class, and Andi doesn't react or get agitated by them walking or interacting with the other dogs.

My mother in law's dog shows no warning signs. He goes from just sitting there, neutral body language, to attacking. He's predictable in the fact that we know if he has access to a dog he will attack it at some point, but unpredictable in the fact that he shows no warning signs before attack. Years ago I thought I was making some progress with him. We were taking him on some walks with my dog and he was doing ok, albeit with a lot of persistence and then at some point he just lost it and attacked my dog with no warning while on leash. He's 110 lbs and we're just lucky my husband is a big guy because he doesn't like to release once he has hold of another dog. I could never trust him from that point on and knew there wasn't really anything we could do with him other than 100% keep him away from other dogs.

Yikes, MBIE. He sounds like he was even worse than Andi! Glad your dog was okay!

At first when we had Andi walking with the other calm, level minded dogs that I'd bring to class - she would go into an avoidance state, which obviously I didn't like either. Thankfully now we're at a point with her that she'll accept other dogs being in/around her turf (except for the peeing thing!) - but obviously she's not ready yet to be around just any random dog. It's such a sin to see dogs like this, really bothers me. Andi's new owners adopted her a few years ago as a five year old and she came with a TON of issues. It's sad because it really makes you wonder what happens to these dogs while they're puppies that they're so poorly socialized. :sad:

[MyBirdIsEvil]

It's sad because it really makes you wonder what happens to these dogs while they're puppies that they're so poorly socialized.

I don't think the socialization is always a factor.

I honestly think some dogs have a genetic predisposition to not want to socialize with other dogs normally. You have to figure some of the dogs in shelters are there NOT because the owners didn't socialize them and those issues popped up afterward, but because the dog was unstable from the start and the owner wasn't sure what to do about it or actually scared of the dog.

This is definitely not the majority, but several experiences have taught me that the dogs that DO fall into this category should NOT be pushed into physically interacting with or even having to greet other dogs because they are too unpredictable to be trustworthy. :sad: Sadly, not ALL behavior is learned behavior that can be corrected.
The problem with dogs like this is it often takes several negative experiences to determine that they're not going to progress past a certain point. They can seem like they're doing well and then show extreme aggression once the handler lets the guard down and starts to "trust" the dog the least bit. It's going to be up to you to determine whether she'll be predictable to the extent she can actually interact long term, and the unfortunate thing is you may not know until you let your guard down and mistakenly assume she's pretty much been rehabilitated. Hopefully she falls into the majority of dogs where most behavior is learned behavior an can be corrected over time.

[Bailey_]

I honestly think some dogs have a genetic predisposition to not want to socialize with other dogs normally.

Absolutley, so true. I should've clarified - in Andi's case, I'm 99.9% sure HER situation had to do with poor socialization and a stupid original owner who encouraged her to fight other dogs. Before her owners recieved her, Andi had been in so many dogfights, some provoked by the owner - some not. Andi was taken from her first home by the city after complaints were made from neighbors that she was being kept outside on a chain in poor living conditions, and that was when it came out that this man had 'attempted' to make her a gaurd dog by obviously doing all the wrong things.

On top of that, she had been diagnosed early on with hypothyroidism and was on all sorts of medications that were seriously affecting her. Shortly before I started working with Andi, the owners consulted another vet for a second opinion and began weaning her off the medications. Now, she's off of them except for receiving some natural remedies.

It's just really sad to see some dogs fall through the cracks - the ones where cases like this CAN be avoided. Andi is also eight years old...so obviously this is a very learned behavior by this point. She's come leaps and bounds since the beginning, and this is one of the cases where you really get attached to your clients dog.


Andi before we met.



Andi now.

[bendyfoot]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

I never thought about marking over the scent though. This makes sense, but I'm not really convinced this is what she was doing.

Our dog with a history of dog-dog aggression, who is an UBER-dominant female, will immediately mark over any urination done by our other dogs.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by bendyfoot

Our dog with a history of dog-dog aggression, who is an UBER-dominant female, will immediately mark over any urination done by our other dogs.

Thanks for this thought BF. I'm beginning to think this is what her reaction was all about. Should I let her, or is this fueling the fire so to speak? My initial gut instinct is to not let her.

[nansel]

I also have a dog aggressive, very dominant female lab. She's about 18 months old, and we adopted her from the SPCA three months ago.

She also will rush over and mark on top of another dogs urination spot any chance she gets. We've been advised (by a trainer) to not let her do that. That it's not her job to "take over" so to speak.

I've learned the signs when she's about to do it, and will just keep moving and not let her. She follows without a fuss.

[MyBirdIsEvil]

Absolutley, so true. I should've clarified - in Andi's case, I'm 99.9% sure HER situation had to do with poor socialization and a stupid original owner who encouraged her to fight other dogs. Before her owners recieved her, Andi had been in so many dogfights, some provoked by the owner - some not. Andi was taken from her first home by the city after complaints were made from neighbors that she was being kept outside on a chain in poor living conditions, and that was when it came out that this man had 'attempted' to make her a gaurd dog by obviously doing all the wrong things.

That kind of thing makes me very angry.

People don't realize that you're not creating a dog that will defend you and your property when necessary, you're creating an unstable dog that's a liability in ANY situation, even where you DON'T want them to bite. I happen to think they're actually less likely to help you in a bad situation because they don't have the stability and self confidence to know when something bad is actually happening and what to do.

My dogs are very people friendly and well socialized and will still warn people not to come into the yard/house uninvited. It's not necessary to screw a dog up mentally to get them to protect you

In most cases a large dog is a deterrent even if it doesn't have a mean bone. When I was a kid I had a rottweiler and people would NOT come into my yard even though if they did she'd probably just lay on her back and want her belly rubbed. People usually won't take a chance with a large dog. The only time I saw her show aggression is when my cousin (who she'd never met before) walked up behind me in the dark and I didn't know he was there. She growled for a second and when I turned around and greeted him she was happy and wanted to be petted.

Of course I'm telling YOU all this and you already know that

Bad dog owners really annoy me.

[Bailey_]

Originally Posted by MyBirdIsEvil

That kind of thing makes me very angry.

People don't realize that you're not creating a dog that will defend you and your property when necessary, you're creating an unstable dog that's a liability in ANY situation, even where you DON'T want them to bite. I happen to think they're actually less likely to help you in a bad situation because they don't have the stability and self confidence to know when something bad is actually happening and what to do.

My dogs are very people friendly and well socialized and will still warn people not to come into the yard/house uninvited. It's not necessary to screw a dog up mentally to get them to protect you

In most cases a large dog is a deterrent even if it doesn't have a mean bone. When I was a kid I had a rottweiler and people would NOT come into my yard even though if they did she'd probably just lay on her back and want her belly rubbed. People usually won't take a chance with a large dog. The only time I saw her show aggression is when my cousin (who she'd never met before) walked up behind me in the dark and I didn't know he was there. She growled for a second and when I turned around and greeted him she was happy and wanted to be petted.

Of course I'm telling YOU all this and you already know that

Bad dog owners really annoy me.

I hear ya, MBIE. When I heard Andi's story I actually purused it a little bit, in hopes of finding out where she came from originally - if nothing else but to find out if there were any fines given. Not that it could justify anything, but it would certainly make ME feel a little better. Couldn't find anything, especially since this is a few years old now.

To be honest, it's one of the reasons I don't turn owners away when they come for help. Andi has already been to three trainers previously to us (two were positive reinforcement trainers, and one trainer was through the spca they got her from - all of them deemed her 'impossible' to fix, and one of them even called Andi 'broken'.) :sad:
Andi might never have a 'normal' socializing dog life, and I've told her owners that a few times. This doesn't mean she's any less wonderful than your average dog, or any less deserving of our time/patience/consistancy.

But you're seriously so right MBIE - some people just shouldn't ever be ALLOWED to touch an animal, let alone own one.

[lUvMyLaB<3]

it is not always bad owners, or no socialization. . . I showed my lab, did ob, rally-o, flyball, took my dog everywhere, off leash all the time, she loved other dogs and had many friends.. Then once when we were walking in the country by our home 3 large farm dogs came racing up a lane and attacked BOTH of us. She did not fight the dogs back. Since that day she has been very aggressive. She is NOT a dominant dog, she attacks first and asks questions later. Literaly she launches an attack at the sight of any dog. I think me being hurt in the attack upset her more than her being attacked. With lots of time, patience, and money lol, we can at least manage it. . So there are times that an aggressive dog is not the result of bad owners. I also agree that some dogs have a genetic predisposition to aggression, bad breeding, and in breeding can result in dogs that have a natural aggressive reaction. Also very common are people that love their dogs a lot and just unknowingly feed their dominance and cause issues. . . Good luck with this lab bailey, glad u have made progress1

[Bailey_]

Thanks LML's, I'm sure Andi will continue to progress.

That would've been a scary situation to be in, especially if YOU were attacked by the dogs too. It's bad enough when we have to watch our dogs in a situation like that. Did you ever find out who the dogs belonged too? Did you file a complaint? That is very dangerous! It sounds like your dog developed a fear aggression towards dogs after that. How have you been able to work her through this?

I agree that there are usually a variety of reasons that can cause a dog to act a certain way - absolutley. But as far as the 'inbreeding' is concerned, I have to disagree with you to a certain point - one just has to be careful when making the general statement that 'inbreeding' is a cause of aggression, because this is not the case at all. In fact, without careful inbreeding of the founders of each breed, we wouldn't have the different dog breeds we do today.
True, BYB's who inbreed are risking the chances of things going terribly wrong, but even in these cases you're more likely to have health issues or physical deformities due to inbreeding than you are to require a dog with inherited aggression.
This requires it's own thread, so I'll stop there, but I could go on and on about that.

[lUvMyLaB<3]

exactly.. Careful inbreeding in some cases did give the breeders the desired look and temperment, bold and brave for war dogs, calm and soft for hunting, so it is the same as indiscriminate, over inbreeding causing aggression. If you take dogs that have aggessive tendincies and breed them you increase your chance of aggressive pups. There are many puppy mill pups byb pups, ect.. that have aggression issues and many other temperment problems. It is easy to breed bad qualities into pups when you just breed for the sake of breeding and are not careful to be breeding in desired traits.

[growler~GateKeeper]

Originally Posted by Bailey_

Yeah, Andi's owners are always at the lesson and she definitely behaves better for the man compared to the woman.

Are they doing the NILF approach? Perhaps they should give it a try

[Bailey_]

Yep Growler, they started after the first lesson a few months ago. I've posted about my concerns regarding the wife owner before - she tends to doubt Andi a lot because she's seen Andi attack & draw blood. She has trouble trusting her, and as a result, it's been quite the process trying to build up her confidence enough so that she *can* be a good leader for Andi.

It's part of the problem, why I believe Andi reacts so quickly.

[Bailey_]

Last night Andi's lesson went really well.

So Andi's owner was there? Can you pick up Andi and take her without the owners to the location to meet Cooper and try it again without her people there? See if she has a different reaction.

Does she seem possesive of you at all as well? Any reaction if Cooper or any other dogs go up to you while Andi is there? If so, can you get a third party neutral person to take Andi to the park while you observe from a short distance?

I tested this last night, and YES - Andi is quite possessive of her owners, though I hadn't seen the behavior before last night. (Of course I hadn't really tested for it either, aside from having Andi's owners taking Coopers leash and walking with him which she was fine with.)
Her reaction would come if either owner bent down and started petting Cooper, saying his name, talking to him, etc.

We tied Andi loosely to a railing in a very secluded area outside (in a place she had never been before) and her owners put her in a sit/stay. I began the 'test' by walking Cooper towards her owners who were standing a good ten feet away from Andi. The minute Andi would stand up, her owners would stop talking to Cooper as we approached and pointed - she'd quickly back down and sit again, at which point I'd walk Cooper away from her owners - wait a few seconds and then bring him back towards his owners.

It took about six tries before I could actually walk the distance and get her owners to touch Cooper, and then about three tries having her owners pet Cooper until she wasn't reacting at all and fine. She seems to calm down much faster than initially, which is also a great sign.

But thankyou Growler for asking me about this because obviously it's important and very relative for Andi's case, so I'm glad I was able to seek this out. We will continue desensitizing her as we have above with different dogs and different scenarios. (Please note that Andi doesn't react with dogs that the family has known for a while, and doesn't mind them interacting with her owners. It's just fairly strange dogs that all her reactions have ever been towards.)

On the plus side, last night we walked past FOUR different random strange dogs, and nothing happened. We were even able to put Andi in a sit/stay on a park bench, as one of these dogs walked by with it's people. HUGE success for Andi. We're all very proud of her and hope to have continued progress!

[growler~GateKeeper]

Glad I could help

Next time try it again not with Cooper but with a different dog, if you can, to try solidifying the non-reaction just in-case she is getting used to Cooper being around her people

The 4 new dog pass-bys sounds like great progress WTG Andi!

[Bailey_]

Thanks Growler, that is the plan! I'm actually glad that I'm still getting a reaction from her with Cooper. It lets me know she still hasn't quite 'accepted' him yet. If she was, I couldn't bring him at all, and he's really good with her. Of course I want to do the same testing with some female dogs, and a few puppies, see what happens. I'll let you know how it goes!