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Old August 17th, 2009, 12:42 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Lightbulb Collars and Leashes and this and that!

You know the more I read about different training methods, this way is right, this way is wrong, the more I want to say the heck with it all!!

You get a puppy and it seems the first thing people want to do is throw a collar and leash on it. (yes it's important) Most puppies will naturally follow a person around, especially if they are being exciting. Wouldn't this be a better way, get the puppy engaged with you without forcing it to follow. Let's face it, if the pup is on a line and starts to wander off, the first thing you're gonna do is grab the leash and pull it back. I know with me that would be a natural reaction. Of course you're not going to start doing this in a wide open field with no boundaries. If and when I get another dog, which will be a pup, I'm going to see if this will work for me. Of course, I will teach the dog to wear a collar and leash, as it's the law in 99.9% of places where there are also people.

Our current trainer, gonna miss him, starts his puppies in this method. He raises Springer Spaniels. His biggest complaint I remember him saying is that people are way too dependent on the leash. He really got on people who keep a death grip on the leash. I'm starting to think that it causes more problems than it's solves.

I also wonder about the bond people say they have with their dogs, especially ones that run off and don't come when called. I must admit I was paranoid with Bayley...ooohhh she's 1/2 Husky, she can't be trusted off leash, she'll take off and never come back to you. It was a good month before I finally let her go. If I step out of sight, it takes her no time to come looking for me, I don't even call her, just hide. One time at the dog park, I left her inside for about 2 minutes to go get a coat out of the car, of course there were her people friends there to watch her. She sat by the fence and watched me the whole time and she was just so overjoyed when I came back, you'd think I'd been gone for hours.

I don't know if there is any real point to this post, but it's just something I was thinking about...maybe brain cells are getting cooked, it's over 30 C here with the humidity!! Ok now I'm back to work!! Gotta pack up books to take to the 2nd hand book store.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 02:04 PM
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Pattymac, very valid post. Interesting topic. Unfortunatley I agree with your trainer; there are TONS of people that rely on the leash as though it's their dogs lifeline...which in effect causes a lot of people to keep their dog in a bubble instead of breaking out of their own comfort zone and teaching their dog how to be well-behaved off leash.
It also obviously causes a lot of issues (leash frustration, etc) when people are a bit overzealous with the leash.

I'm a firm believer that recall training should start at 8 weeks. I try to avoid reccomending leash training until the puppies are a few weeks older, and generally this has always proven to be a great stepping stone into leash training.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 02:12 PM
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it would be great to train a pup off leash. but where I live if your pup ( no matter what age) is caught off leash) just running around, you are subjected to a fine, and a hefty one at that.

is it worth the looking over your shoulder at all time for fear of getting caught??

not everyone lives in an ideal place for this, or not everyone is a responsible owner..
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Old August 17th, 2009, 02:40 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Of course, I wouldn't take a dog out off leash if it's not allowed. I think though like Bailey said there's nothing wrong with working off leash in the house, in your yard, at a dog park when it's quiet. Pretty soon the dog just stays with you, no pulling, no problems.

I'm finding with my Bayley, I've started taking her out on her long line, instead of her leash. She knows come back and wait and is much better when she's got a bit more freedom. I noticed she's much less aggressive on her long line if she sees another dog. I can still reel her in pretty darn fast..you learn that longeing horses, if I need to. I've discovered too, that once she's had her good run and play, she just walks or trots along side me with the line dragging on the ground. So I would assume she doesn't even really notice that I still have a hold of her...for bylaw purposes anyway!!
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Old August 17th, 2009, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by pattymac View Post
Of course, I wouldn't take a dog out off leash if it's not allowed. I think though like Bailey said there's nothing wrong with working off leash in the house, in your yard, at a dog park when it's quiet. Pretty soon the dog just stays with you, no pulling, no problems.

I'm finding with my Bayley, I've started taking her out on her long line, instead of her leash. She knows come back and wait and is much better when she's got a bit more freedom. I noticed she's much less aggressive on her long line if she sees another dog. I can still reel her in pretty darn fast..you learn that longeing horses, if I need to. I've discovered too, that once she's had her good run and play, she just walks or trots along side me with the line dragging on the ground. So I would assume she doesn't even really notice that I still have a hold of her...for bylaw purposes anyway!!
isn't long lead and leash the same thing?? I always thought it was..
why would anyone leash train in a house??


ok maybe I'm confused..
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Old August 17th, 2009, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by breeze View Post
isn't long lead and leash the same thing?? I always thought it was..
why would anyone leash train in a house??


ok maybe I'm confused..
Leash training in the house is a great way to have the puppy used to wearing a collar and a leash, among other reasons. But I think what Pattymac was referring to was teaching the puppy off leash recall commands at basically every opportunity in safe areas (in your home, in your yard, etc.)

In our city we're lucky because we do have a lot of off-leash areas that are not actual dog parks. These are usually the places that I'll take dogs/puppies to work on their recall commands and off leash training.

A long line is great to use instead of the leash because tension tends to be put on a leash. (Usually leashes at your petstore are 6 feet at the longest length), so your dog can still feel the tension as the owner holds it. A long line allows the dog to wander without feeling the line pulling at their collar, and gives them the illusion of 'freedom'. It's a great way to train recall, especially in dogs that have a habit of not listening.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 03:01 PM
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We don't have very many off leash places to go to. so for me a long lead is in place dragging on the ground unless the dog is not listening then we just reel her in ( not mentioning any names here )

and our dog parks are not as clean as people think :sad:

I for one would love to know what Archie would be like without a lead or leash, but it's not possible right now:sad: I already know what Bree would be like
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Old August 17th, 2009, 03:08 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Bailey, what part of AB are you in? My Mom and I are planning to move to Alsask..a little teeny tiny town in SK right on the AB border. We're going out to take a look in a few weeks, just gotta get my neice's last show out of the way and we can go. Not too many big towns around but lots of space, I am sooo looking forward to the whole thing!
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Old August 17th, 2009, 03:10 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Oh sometimes a pair of gloves comes in real handy with a long line!! I keep forgetting to keep mine in the car. I find that the more I use it, the better she gets with it, of course. If I could afford it, I'd get a leather tracking line but they're not cheap. cotton is ok though on the hands.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pattymac View Post
Bailey, what part of AB are you in? My Mom and I are planning to move to Alsask..a little teeny tiny town in SK right on the AB border. We're going out to take a look in a few weeks, just gotta get my neice's last show out of the way and we can go. Not too many big towns around but lots of space, I am sooo looking forward to the whole thing!
PM, I'm in Calgary. We live in town, but we own land just outside of it for all of our horses too. I don't think I've been to Alsask...what brings you out that way?

Breeze, awwh, that's too bad about your dog parks! It's generally the same here with all the really well known ones...in the spring there are usually HUGE brown/yellow puddles from all the dog urine and feces. I generally try to go to the less well known DP's.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 04:00 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Cheap rents, nice people, away from all the traffice and noise...need a change! Been in Ontario for over 40 years!! Want to see what another part of the country is like and not just to drive through it!! I thought our lot here was a decent size, this one is huge!! Little house, no stairs...it's very difficult to find a house here that isn't a 2 storey or an elavated bungalow, my mom doesn't do stairs very well anymore.

So ya we made the big decision, after looking at places here all over 1200!! No pets. Then I went on Kijiji and looked west..I went WOW!! Started contacting people...so friendly and quick and pets no problem.

The town has a big fenced area that people take their dogs to. The owner of the house said that the dogs can run for hours and not go anywhere. I'm thinking that the little out there isn't the same as the little here!!
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Old August 17th, 2009, 04:05 PM
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Congrats! Sounds like a great place! My husband and I are actually putting our place up for sale at the end of the month too. Our family is expanding and we decided we need a bigger place. We've thought of Saskatch, but I'm not sure if we'd find work there. Was that a problem for you, or no?
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Old August 17th, 2009, 04:09 PM
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Our family is expanding and we decided we need a bigger place.
meaning in or and horses???

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Old August 17th, 2009, 04:14 PM
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Breeze, I love your use of characters.

Not quite ready for the human variety...I still have memories of what it took the first time.

But we're obtaining more pets every month it seems, and we're currently talking about starting to foster for some rescue groups that we're already affiliated with. We'd need a bigger house/yard though, especially with our two dogs and two cats already.
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Old August 17th, 2009, 04:16 PM
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Old August 17th, 2009, 04:56 PM
pattymac pattymac is offline
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Cool Bailey!! Job wise the medium sized town 1/2 hour away seems to have a pretty good selection of jobs. I just want something part time for now. I can make more at Timmies than I'm getting at my current job!!
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Old August 19th, 2009, 08:33 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Most puppies will naturally follow a person around, especially if they are being exciting. Wouldn't this be a better way, get the puppy engaged with you without forcing it to follow.
This IS how I trained my puppies. It's quite well accepted in the U.K. Neither of mine had a leash on till they were safe with their vaccinations and ready for their public debuts. Well, ok, they had the leash on a bit but no serious training. The main benefit of training this way is the establishment of a really solid COME, and I should have been more clear, it's the recall training they use this for in the U.K., not so much the HEEL, at least in my readings, though I think it helped with both. The caveat is, it must be started at a very early age. Mine were 8 weeks old.

Take puppy to an isolated, safe area (backyard worked at first) put on ground, walk around. At that young age puppy is fearful of being too far from you and comes on the run when they notice you are now 3 feet away from them, instead of 1 foot (or even under your foot, with my first ) At that point, when they are coming anyway, you say PUPPY COME. It's called contiuguity training on natural behaviour.

You don't even need treats. Puppy's reward for coming to you is his immense relief at being safely back beside Mom, or Pop, and that's a very powerful reward. Lots of praise and cuddles too of course.

My first pup retained her exemplary recall all her life. My second, current, not so. He had fabulous recall off of wild turkeys, deer, other dogs, bicycles, you name it. Till just past a year old. Then he lost it and began chasing those moving things. Doesn't if they are not moving, and will COME. I still believe the initial training is very good and the failure is mine for not reinforcing with a long line. I didn't need it with first pup but this one is very bold, confident and outgoing. We are doing long line work on him now.

Quote:
Let's face it, if the pup is on a line and starts to wander off, the first thing you're gonna do is grab the leash and pull it back. I know with me that would be a natural reaction. Of course you're not going to start doing this in a wide open field with no boundaries.
I had no line on my pups and I did do this in wide open fields with no boundaries but I live in a rural area. I took pups out to the county forest, put them on the ground and walked. They followed. Hard to find areas like that if you live in an urban setting.

Edited to add: If pup started to wander off I ran the other way and hid behind a tree. I still do and I was doing it as a game when "pup" was +14 years.

You might find this UK discussion on this training method interesting: http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/boar...114249.html#fp

Last edited by Longblades; August 19th, 2009 at 11:15 AM.
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Old August 19th, 2009, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Longblades View Post
This IS how I trained my puppies. It's quite well accepted in the U.K. Neither of mine had a leash on till they were safe with their vaccinations and ready for their public debuts. Well, ok, they had the leash on a bit but no serious training. The main benefit of training this way is the establishment of a really solid COME, and I should have been more clear, it's the recall training they use this for in the U.K., not so much the HEEL, at least in my readings, though I think it helped with both. The caveat is, it must be started at a very early age. Mine were 8 weeks old.

Take puppy to an isolated, safe area (backyard worked at first) put on ground, walk around. At that young age puppy is fearful of being too far from you and comes on the run when they notice you are now 3 feet away from them, instead of 1 foot (or even under your foot, with my first ) At that point, when they are coming anyway, you say PUPPY COME. It's called contiuguity training on natural behaviour.

You don't even need treats. Puppy's reward for coming to you is his immense relief at being safely back beside Mom, or Pop, and that's a very powerful reward. Lots of praise and cuddles too of course.

My first pup retained her exemplary recall all her life. My second, current, not so. He had fabulous recall off of wild turkeys, deer, other dogs, bicycles, you name it. Till just past a year old. Then he lost it and began chasing those moving things. Doesn't if they are not moving, and will COME. I still believe the initial training is very good and the failure is mine for not reinforcing with a long line. I didn't need it with first pup but this one is very bold, confident and outgoing. We are doing long line work on him now.

I had no line on my pups and I did do this in wide open fields with no boundaries but I live in a rural area. I took pups out to the county forest, put them on the ground and walked. They followed. Hard to find areas like that if you live in an urban setting.

You might find this UK discussion on this training method interesting: http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/boar...114249.html#fp
This is basically the same as how I've trained all my dogs. I have 8 acres, plus the use of 4 more acres next door and my dogs never wear collars unless we're going somewhere off property. They get so used to following me around the farm doing chores that when I decide to "leash-break" them walking down the road there is no fighting the leash, they generally just follow. Plus in my case with all my dogs any new pup wants to stick with the pack and follow us around. Winter's great too, I keep a trail groomed around the property and going off the trail means getting into deep soft snow that is harder to move in.
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