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  #1  
Old June 23rd, 2009, 04:46 AM
Mia101 Mia101 is offline
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foods for a cat with the 'pre-curser' to KD

She is not touching the Hills k/d. Which would not be my first choice anyway.

Help, I love my baby. I was so used to good bloodwork I thought she was invincible, lol.

I changed her to premium a year or more ago, but I forgot topay attention to phospherous. It's probably my fault her kidney levels are elevated
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 07:57 AM
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Definitely stay away from K/D . She's smart not to eat it. What has she been eating (dry? wet?). Your best bet is to get her onto a low-carb, quality protein wet food like Wellness or Innova Evo 95% meat. (Or a raw diet, if that's something you're interested in making).

A high phosphorus food is not actually going to cause kidney problems in otherwise healthy kidneys, so I wouldn't blame yourself for this.
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Picky cats do like the Innova EVO and as SCM said, it is good for them
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Old June 23rd, 2009, 10:49 PM
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Wellness does have a few different flavours in the low end phosphorus range: Turkey, Chicken, Beef & Chicken, Beef & Salmon are all kidney cat approved by my CRF grrl
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:15 AM
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I'm going to feed her the same as if she already has KD?

Through my research here, I have had her on Wellness canned. For dry snacks she was eating a mix of Wellness Complete Health and CORE.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by growler View Post
Wellness does have a few different flavours in the low end phosphorus range: Turkey, Chicken, Beef & Chicken, Beef & Salmon are all kidney cat approved by my CRF grrl
I was reading another thread to stay away from fish? Not right?

How convenient that wellness is good for her. We had a hellofatime switching to a premium wet food over here.

I guess Fancy Feast has too much phosphorous? I know it's not considered a great food but I think it looks pretty good from the ingredients.


What I really like about it is I can keep putting more (bottled, now) water in the bowl and it turns into 'gravy' fast so she is drinking LOTS. This doesn't work with the wellness.

(my local retailer stopped carrying wellness so she is eating FF right now)
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Old June 25th, 2009, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mia101 View Post
I was reading another thread to stay away from fish? Not right?
It's true that you don't want to feed too much fish (tends to be higher in phosphorus), but the Wellness Beef & Salmon is one of the better fishy choices. What you really want to stay away from is a food that's all or mostly fish-based and has multiple types of fish, or even worse, unspecified fish (like "fish meal" or "white fish" or "ocean fish"). Many of the Fancy Feast or Friskies or 9-Lives fish flavours come to mind.

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I guess Fancy Feast has too much phosphorous? I know it's not considered a great food but I think it looks pretty good from the ingredients.
Most of the Fancy Feast flavours do have too much phosphorus (there are exceptions, like the minced or sliced "beef feast"). While FF isn't the worst food, and it's certainly better than eating kibble, it does usually contain by-products and unnamed meat sources. I feed it occasionally to my cat cause he likes lots of variety in his diet, but I try to keep it to 3 times a week or less.

Keeping the Wellness Core to a minimum would be a good idea as it's a bit high for phosphorus. It might be useful though, for getting your cat to eat other wet foods if you grind it up and sprinkle it on top of the canned.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
It's true that you don't want to feed too much fish (tends to be higher in phosphorus), but the Wellness Beef & Salmon is one of the better fishy choices. What you really want to stay away from is a food that's all or mostly fish-based and has multiple types of fish, or even worse, unspecified fish (like "fish meal" or "white fish" or "ocean fish"). Many of the Fancy Feast or Friskies or 9-Lives fish flavours come to mind.



Most of the Fancy Feast flavours do have too much phosphorus (there are exceptions, like the minced or sliced "beef feast"). While FF isn't the worst food, and it's certainly better than eating kibble, it does usually contain by-products and unnamed meat sources. I feed it occasionally to my cat cause he likes lots of variety in his diet, but I try to keep it to 3 times a week or less.

Keeping the Wellness Core to a minimum would be a good idea as it's a bit high for phosphorus. It might be useful though, for getting your cat to eat other wet foods if you grind it up and sprinkle it on top of the canned.
Do you know if the Wellness Complete Health is alright for the dry?

IS there a way to keep her from getting KD?
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Old June 25th, 2009, 04:09 PM
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I went through this with my late great Flo. She had rejected all renal diets and the Vet then gave me a homemade recipe which she accepted begrudgingly. Here's the recipe if you'd like to try it but I would check with your Vet first. I used to make it in batches and freeze it. I used a blender to puree the meat and then mixed the rest in.

1/4 lb. Liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
2 large hard-boiled eggs
2 cups cooked white rice without salt
1 Tablespoon vegetable oil
1 t (5 grams) calcium carbonate
1/8 teaspoon KCI (salt substitute)

Also add a balanced supplement which fulfills the feline MDR for all vitamins and trace minerals, and 250 mg taurine/day

Dice and braise the meat, retaining fat. Combine all ingredients and mix well. This mixture is somewhat dry and the palatability may be improved by adding some water (not milk).


Renal diets for people are just awful and tasteless so I would imagine it is the same for a cat and which is why so many cats reject the diet. Wouldn't you? I do think back on Flo and often wonder whether I might have done her more of a kindess by allowing her to eat what she liked instead of forcing a renal diet on her. Afterall, eating is one of a cat's greatest joys in life. Her life may have been shorter but in the end she may have been happier. That's just my .02. Of course, I would try every option available if one of my two developed CRF but in the end if I had to do it over again I would abandon the diet if the cat truly rejected the food. Flo just never ate enough of the homemade diet to sustain her in the long run. While I thought I was doing what was best for her I sometimes still wonder.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by killmo View Post
I went through this with my late great Flo. She had rejected all renal diets and the Vet then gave me a homemade recipe which she accepted begrudgingly. Here's the recipe if you'd like to try it but I would check with your Vet first. I used to make it in batches and freeze it. I used a blender to puree the meat and then mixed the rest in.

1/4 lb. Liver (beef, chicken or pork only)
2 large hard-boiled eggs
2 cups cooked white rice without salt
1 Tablespoon vegetable oil
1 t (5 grams) calcium carbonate
1/8 teaspoon KCI (salt substitute)

Also add a balanced supplement which fulfills the feline MDR for all vitamins and trace minerals, and 250 mg taurine/day

Dice and braise the meat, retaining fat. Combine all ingredients and mix well. This mixture is somewhat dry and the palatability may be improved by adding some water (not milk).


Renal diets for people are just awful and tasteless so I would imagine it is the same for a cat and which is why so many cats reject the diet. Wouldn't you? I do think back on Flo and often wonder whether I might have done her more of a kindess by allowing her to eat what she liked instead of forcing a renal diet on her. Afterall, eating is one of a cat's greatest joys in life. Her life may have been shorter but in the end she may have been happier. That's just my .02. Of course, I would try every option available if one of my two developed CRF but in the end if I had to do it over again I would abandon the diet if the cat truly rejected the food. Flo just never ate enough of the homemade diet to sustain her in the long run. While I thought I was doing what was best for her I sometimes still wonder.
How long did she live after her diagnosis?

I have read many times there is no point in a renal diet if the cat won't eat it. They will just lose too much weight and that is worse than than the disease advancing.

Somewhere there is a balance and you did what you thought to be right at the time - don't blame yourself!

If she rejects renal diets I will get as close as possible and let her eat whatever that is.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 04:59 PM
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Why is water so important?

Right now I am adding it to her food to make gravy.

I think she is filling up on the gravy and maybe not getting enough food!
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Old June 25th, 2009, 05:01 PM
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Do I treat her like a cat who already has KD to try and keep it from developing?

Or is it different when she just has the 'pre-curser'
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Old June 25th, 2009, 06:19 PM
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Why is water so important?
Helps the kidneys to do their job, which is filter out toxins from the blood stream (among other things). Dehydration is hugely detrimental to the kidneys, so if you can eliminate the kibble, that would be ideal. Not only is dry food a paltry 10% moisture or less (when cats should be eating food with 60-80% moisture), but it actually pulls even more water out of the cells during digestion, compounding the dehydrating effects.

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Right now I am adding it to her food to make gravy.

I think she is filling up on the gravy and maybe not getting enough food!
How much does she weigh, and how much food does she eat? Is she losing weight? There's a general feeding guideline of about 20-30 calories per lb per day for the average adult cat.

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Do I treat her like a cat who already has KD to try and keep it from developing?

Or is it different when she just has the 'pre-curser'
Do you have a copy of her latest lab results, including urinalysis? My opinion is that even kidney cats should be eating what all cats should be eating, which is a quality protein, low-carb (preferably grain-free), wet food. Keeping the phosphorus content of the food within a reasonable level is a good goal if there are signs of kidney insufficiency.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 06:39 PM
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I can't believe I let her drink tap water. Her kidneys would not have had to work so hard.

I don't know if she's really eating less. It's only been a few days.

I have her on canned only now. Before it was mostly canned with some dry.

The vet didn't do a urine test. Weird, huh?

I don't have the labwork yet but I am getting it. He just said her kidney levels were elevated and to start her on renal diet food.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 07:25 PM
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The vet didn't do a urine test. Weird, huh?

I don't have the labwork yet but I am getting it. He just said her kidney levels were elevated and to start her on renal diet food.
You can't diagnose kidney disease without a urinalysis, particularly the urine specific gravity.
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Old June 25th, 2009, 07:32 PM
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You can't diagnose kidney disease without a urinalysis, particularly the urine specific gravity.
He didn't diagnose KD. He said her Kidney levels were elevated and that it's a sign that K/D is coming.
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Old June 26th, 2009, 12:59 AM
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I was reading another thread to stay away from fish? Not right?
Yes you do want to limit fish for reasons already stated by scm & also see below re addiction. However the Wellness Beef & Salmon has enough of a 2nd protein in it that the fish is not the only thing they taste, plus the dry matter phos level is good.

I've found the Wellness to be pretty good with turning into a slurry more than gravy which in turn means they end of eating more of the canned & not just the watery gravy.

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Do you know if the Wellness Complete Health is alright for the dry?

IS there a way to keep her from getting KD?
Wellness Complete Health Chicken and Rice Dry runs at 1.12 dry matter phos and the Wellness Complete Health Salmon and Turkey Dry runs at 1.01 dry matter phos.

Canned is by far better but if you must feed some not all dry either one is okay, the Salmon has better dm phos numbers but you want to be aware of the addictive fish aspect. Some cats once they start on fish will only eat fish & it becomes darn near impossible to get them to eat anything else - that is one other reason to limit the fish intake.

Unfortunately there is no way to stop kidney failure from happening.

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I have read many times there is no point in a renal diet if the cat won't eat it. They will just lose too much weight and that is worse than than the disease advancing.
This is true, the renal diet won't do any good if the cat refuses to eat because they don't like the taste due to a lack of fat & protein and therefore lack of taste.

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He didn't diagnose KD. He said her Kidney levels were elevated and that it's a sign that K/D is coming.
Elevated and out of normal range or elevated on the high side of normal?
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Old June 26th, 2009, 10:49 AM
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IDK. Thank you for helping me with questions to ask him!

It can't be stopped - so I am just trying to slow it down with diet?
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Old June 26th, 2009, 12:26 PM
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How long did she live after her diagnosis?

I have read many times there is no point in a renal diet if the cat won't eat it. They will just lose too much weight and that is worse than than the disease advancing.

Somewhere there is a balance and you did what you thought to be right at the time - don't blame yourself!

If she rejects renal diets I will get as close as possible and let her eat whatever that is.

She lived almost 3 years after diagnosis but she was half her normal weight at death. As I said, if I had to do it over again I'd let her eat what she wanted.
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Old June 26th, 2009, 08:25 PM
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She lived almost 3 years after diagnosis but she was half her normal weight at death. As I said, if I had to do it over again I'd let her eat what she wanted.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Don't beat yourself up - you did what you thought was right at the time.

I will take heed and let my baby eat what she wants if it comes to that.
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Old June 26th, 2009, 08:26 PM
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Is there such a thing as too much water?

She is drinking a LOT since I started putting it in her wet food.

And peeing a lot more too.
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Old June 26th, 2009, 08:44 PM
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Two substances in the blood – urea and creatinine – are commonly analysed, as these are products of metabolism that are normally excreted by the kidneys. In renal failure the blood concentration of these two products will be increased. However, as there are some conditions other than chronic renal failure that can also elevate these concentrations, a urine sample is usually analysed at the same time.
I wonder why the vet didn't test her urine? Of course I still don't know what the labwork says. Just 'elevated kidney levels' is all he said. I wonder if that means something different than what is said above.
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Old June 27th, 2009, 12:19 AM
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It can't be stopped - so I am just trying to slow it down with diet?
Yes and when it gets to a certain point there are other treatment options such as fluid therapy, medications, supplements etc

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Is there such a thing as too much water?

She is drinking a LOT since I started putting it in her wet food.

And peeing a lot more too.
If you can measure out the amount of water you put in her dish leave it out for her for 24 hrs, then measure again how much is left in the dish, do this for 2 or 3 days & write down how much water she is drinking. Another way is to measure out water, leave the dish for 1 week then re-measure the water left, that will give a good indication to your vet as to how much she is drinking and whether she is dehydrated & needs fluid therapy. Then in the future you can measure again & compare the amounts.

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I wonder why the vet didn't test her urine? Of course I still don't know what the labwork says. Just 'elevated kidney levels' is all he said. I wonder if that means something different than what is said above.
How old is she & what's her name?

Some vets will do bloodwork first, then if anything shows they will do a Urinalysis. There are other possibilities for elevated kidney levels that are not kidney failure but 98% of the time it is CRF.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 05:51 PM
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She won't drink regular water from a dish. But yesterday I measure what I put into her wet food and it was over 4 oz.

I was wondering if I'm inadvertently 'forcing' too much water by making it flavorful.

Since there were elevated kidney levels, I don't understand why he didn't test urine.

I'm also confused about phosphorous - one post said it doesn't cause CRF, and she doesn't have it right now. So why lower the levels?

I was thinking maybe more hydration would return her levels to normal and maybe prevent CRF?

Also, is CRF and KD the same thing?

She is about 18.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 12:43 AM
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I got her labwork.

BUN = 38 Says normal is 15-34.

MCHC = 37.6 norm 29-36

Is the Wellness chicken and herring OK? She likes it!
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Old June 30th, 2009, 12:46 AM
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Phosphorous 4.0 norm 3.0-7.0
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Old June 30th, 2009, 01:28 AM
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She won't drink regular water from a dish. But yesterday I measure what I put into her wet food and it was over 4 oz.

I was wondering if I'm inadvertently 'forcing' too much water by making it flavorful.

Since there were elevated kidney levels, I don't understand why he didn't test urine.

I'm also confused about phosphorous - one post said it doesn't cause CRF, and she doesn't have it right now. So why lower the levels?

I was thinking maybe more hydration would return her levels to normal and maybe prevent CRF?

Also, is CRF and KD the same thing?

She is about 18.
What is she drinking water from a running tap or a fountain?

The amount of water in the food isn't really going to be enough to say it's too much, for any kind of kidney issue they need the extra water to flush out the toxins in the body.

As for why your vet didn't test the urine you can always request a urinalysis.

High phosphorus levels in food will not cause kidney failure in a healthy cat, and feeding a low phosphorus food to a healthy cat will not prevent kidney failure. Feeding a low phosphorus food to a kidney failure cat is less strain/less work for the kidneys. Phosphorus is an essential mineral in the body that can not be properly excreted by damaged kidneys leading to other complications as well as the cat feeling awful.

Quote:
http://www.felinecrf.org/just_diagnosed.htm#phosphorus
Phosphorus and calcium are minerals which are important for nerve function, muscle contraction and bone formation. A healthy body has a natural balance between levels of phosphorus and calcium. CRF kidneys can no longer excrete phosphorus properly so levels of phosphorus rise (hyperphosphataemia), which can then adversely affect the cat's calcium levels, with potentially serious consequences (secondary hyperparathyroidism). Not only that, but high phosphorus levels may make the CRF progress faster and can make a cat feel lousy. So controlling phosphorus levels is one of the most important steps in managing CRF and helping your cat feel better.
CRF (Chronic Renal Failure) & CKD or KD (Chronic / Kidney Disease) are different ways of saying the same thing.


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I got her labwork.

BUN = 38 Says normal is 15-34.

MCHC = 37.6 norm 29-36

Is the Wellness chicken and herring OK? She likes it!
What is the Creatinine level?

The slightly raised MCHC is a higher concentration of hemoglobin in the red blood cells, likely due to not drinking enough water to compensate for the amount she's peeing.

Wellness Chicken & Herring is too high in phosphorus the dry matter amount is 1.48%, the goal for dry matter phosphorus is 1% or lower. The Wellness flavours I mentioned at the top of the thread all have acceptable dry matter phosphorus levels of between 1.05 - 1.17%.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 09:54 PM
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OK but if her kidneys are not damaged, the phospherous does not matter? That is what I am confused on.

She might not have been drinking enough before - she would not use the fountain and drank from the tap. I didn't like to let her, but thought it's better to let her drink any way she would.

Now she must be drinking enough - maybe too much - with me making all this 'gravy'. so her levels might return to normal?

My store only has chicken, turkey, chicken & beef, and chicken & herring.

In the past she didn't like the chicken or turkey enough to eat everyday. But we will see.

Creatinine level = 1.7 norm .8-2.3
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Old June 30th, 2009, 09:59 PM
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The amount of water in the food isn't really going to be enough to say it's too much, for any kind of kidney issue they need the extra water to flush out the toxins in the body.
I meant all that I'm adding to each feeding. She doesn't eat even 1/3 of a 5.5 oz can at a time, and I add water to each meal. I'm wondering if I am 'focing' more than she needs because it tastes good.

weight - she has normally been 7 pounds her whole life - I think once or twice she read at 8p. The last reading was 6.12
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Old July 1st, 2009, 12:39 AM
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OK but if her kidneys are not damaged, the phospherous does not matter? That is what I am confused on.

She might not have been drinking enough before - she would not use the fountain and drank from the tap. I didn't like to let her, but thought it's better to let her drink any way she would.

Creatinine level = 1.7 norm .8-2.3
Since the vet has already indicated, as shown on the bloodwork, she has elevated kidney enzymes, reducing the amount of phosphorus in the food now will reduce the amount of work the kidneys have to do in order to process & eliminate phos from the body.

Because the BUN is already high and the creatinine is more than half of normal, she's lost almost a pound of weight in the last couple of years, she's a senior at 18 years old and you have noticed her peeing more, it is a good idea not to put any more strain on the kidneys that may cause faster deterioration of their function. Feeding low phos right now will not prevent kidney failure but it will slow the progression of kidney disease & make less of an impact on the kidneys. She may not have damaged kidneys right now but there is a high chance she has pre-renal atozemia ~ damage in the area of the tubes that feed into the kidneys, when this disease progresses farther it becomes kidney failure.

Her BUN is high, her MCHC is high, her creatinine is on the high side of normal ---- right now this indicates she's dehydrated - not getting enough water to compensate for the amount she is peeing out.

Quote:
http://www.felinecrf.org/diagnosis.h...ction_measures
If BUN or urea levels are high yet creatinine is normal or only a little elevated, it usually means that the cat is dehydrated, has gastro-intestinal bleeding, or is eating a high protein diet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia101 View Post
Now she must be drinking enough - maybe too much - with me making all this 'gravy'. so her levels might return to normal?
Adding 4 oz of water to her food is not enough to flush out toxins in the bloodstream, certainly not enough to reverse dehydration.

On a body weight basis a healthy cat with no medical indications at 6.12 pounds is recommended to be drinking between 5.14oz-6.56oz of water per day.

A cat with any indications of kidney disease needs more water than that per day to help combat dehydration, flush the system and replace the water lost through increased urination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia101 View Post
My store only has chicken, turkey, chicken & beef, and chicken & herring.

In the past she didn't like the chicken or turkey enough to eat everyday. But we will see.
You don't have to feed only 1 flavour day after day, rotate through the 3 different flavours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mia101 View Post
I meant all that I'm adding to each feeding. She doesn't eat even 1/3 of a 5.5 oz can at a time, and I add water to each meal. I'm wondering if I am 'focing' more than she needs because it tastes good.

weight - she has normally been 7 pounds her whole life - I think once or twice she read at 8p. The last reading was 6.12
Does she finish all the food in her dish per meal?

How much of the can(s) is she eating per day?
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