Go Back   Pet forum for dogs cats and humans - Pets.ca > Discussion Groups - mainly cats and dogs > Dog health - Ask members * If your pet is vomiting-bleeding-diarrhea etc. Vet time!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old April 17th, 2009, 02:47 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,884
Lowering urine pH in canines

Does anyone know if you can lower a dog's urine pH through diet alone and how you'd go about doing it? Does anyone know the long-term effects of urine that basic on the kidneys?

A friend's lab, Max...I think he's about 7 now...is showing a significant amount of blood in his urine. The pH, according to the owner, is about 9.3 and the worry is that the blood is from a recurrence of a problem with bladder stones that he had a short time ago.

A little medical history: Max has had a rough couple of years. First he developed Addison's disease and has been on prednisone for quite a while (he started at 10 mg, twice daily). He had his pelvis broken a year or two ago when he fell asleep under the family truck and got backed over. It took multiple surgeries to fix that problem, since a sponge was left in during the first surgery (yes, this was at the specialist's! ) He then developed the stones in his bladder which blocked his urethra and eventually required a rerouting of his 'plumbing'. Then came the bout with hemolytic anemia. The pred was bumped up to 80 mg a day and the anemia has begun to respond. This week, his pred dose was reduced to 60 mg a day, but now he's peeing blood again. :sad: The urine pH is way too high and the fear is that the stones are forming again.

He eats a mixture of kibble and home-cooked, but his owner is wondering if a switch to all meat, home-cooked would be better for him--and my thought would be that maybe raw would be best The vet, of course, has his own suggestions for prescription food, but they're pretty grainy.

Any thoughts, suggestions on the problem?
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old April 17th, 2009, 03:00 PM
corky/max's Avatar
corky/max corky/max is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cobb,Wi--very small place
Posts: 57
WHAT A COINCIDENT! And my 2nd 1 today!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post
Does anyone know if you can lower a dog's urine pH through diet alone and how you'd go about doing it? Does anyone know the long-term effects of urine that basic on the kidneys?

A friend's lab, Max...I think he's about 7 now...is showing a significant amount of blood in his urine. The pH, according to the owner, is about 9.3 and the worry is that the blood is from a recurrence of a problem with bladder stones that he had a short time ago.

A little medical history: Max has had a rough couple of years. First he developed Addison's disease and has been on prednisone for quite a while (he started at 10 mg, twice daily). He had his pelvis broken a year or two ago when he fell asleep under the family truck and got backed over. It took multiple surgeries to fix that problem, since a sponge was left in during the first surgery (yes, this was at the specialist's! ) He then developed the stones in his bladder which blocked his urethra and eventually required a rerouting of his 'plumbing'. Then came the bout with hemolytic anemia. The pred was bumped up to 80 mg a day and the anemia has begun to respond. This week, his pred dose was reduced to 60 mg a day, but now he's peeing blood again. :sad: The urine pH is way too high and the fear is that the stones are forming again.

He eats a mixture of kibble and home-cooked, but his owner is wondering if a switch to all meat, home-cooked would be better for him--and my thought would be that maybe raw would be best The vet, of course, has his own suggestions for prescription food, but they're pretty grainy.

Any thoughts, suggestions on the problem?
I just got done posting to another person on this subject and I too think that raw would be best. Am not going to repeat a long post I just did but if you could go over to this dog forum where I just posted you could see my reply to her. http://www.i-love-dogs.com/forums/ and click on dog forum at top left(in blu strip) scroll down a ways and find Dog Health and Nutrition--click and find posting tittled Crystals in Urine and Raw food Hope you find it!

Last edited by corky/max; April 17th, 2009 at 03:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old April 17th, 2009, 03:13 PM
luckypenny's Avatar
luckypenny luckypenny is offline
Doggie Wench
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: St. Philippe-de-Laprairie, Qc
Posts: 11,813
I think a switch to raw would be most beneficial...it certainly wouldn't hurt.

In addition, 2100mg cranberry supplements (we've used Natural Factors) 2x daily with meals. Your friends can get ph strips at any drug store so they can monitor the ph levels as often as they wish. Normal for dogs is 5.5-7. Lots of fluid is important as well. They can add 1/2 cup water extra to his food.
__________________
"Education is a progressive discovery of our own ignorance." -Will Durant
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old April 17th, 2009, 06:46 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,884
Thanks, but it won't open for me, corky/max. Slow connection. I can barely navigate in pets.ca and those pages are cached

Cranberry I know I can find, and sugarcatmom () has suggested checking into L-methionine. Max's dad will be touching base with the vet again tomorrow morning, and I'll be going into town on Sunday--I think I know where I can get both of those....
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old April 18th, 2009, 12:46 AM
growler~GateKeeper's Avatar
growler~GateKeeper growler~GateKeeper is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 17,277
Hazel here's the post corky/max mentioned:

Quote:
Originally posted by corky/max:

Meat is high in phosphorus (wasn't mentioned in my vet book in connection with the problem) Wondering if he was concerned about that being an extra stress on the kidneys at this time because kidneys have an extra load because of the stones--(urinary tract). I know that when a dog has kidney disease, you are suppose to use a special diet low in phosphorus but I don't see what it would have to do with creating the problem of the stones forming in the 1st place. Maybe you should ask for an explanation on this when you go back to vet. You stated that the BRAVO is meat only---Is it a 'complete' dog food or one you are suppose to add other things to? Too much meat (protein)and nothing much else is not healthy for the dog anyway. The dog needs some carbs--I use mostly veggies to supply that. I do feed oatmeal every other day or so for the morning meal with yogurt and whatever scraps of meat I have frozen in a baggie in the freezer for that purpose--and sometimes add a little canned pumpkin (not the pie filling--just plain pumpkin.) and sometimes add a raw egg . Most of the time I put the raw white in the hot oatmeal when I take it off the stove and stir till it turns white--but I don't always--sometimes I give the whole egg raw. If you are suppose to stay away from phosphorus (at least for the time-being) not sure but think most grains (oatmeal) have phosphorus. A dog also needs a little fat in it's diet. (Pumpkin may have phosphorus too) The cranberry enzyme powder sounds good---Where did you find out about that and where do you get it? Exspensive? Well, guess I don't have any more to contribute right now--except I think I read somewhere that asparagus was good for the urinary tract but may have phosphorus--could check out phosphorus content on the internet. If fed raw--all veggies should be crushed real fine otherwise the dog gets no nutrients from them--to do with not being able to break down the cellulous wall of veggies so they pass through with no nutrients being available to the dog. I crush mine in a mini-processor--Have to get real fine--ideally about size of a pin head--pretty hard to do but as fine as you can. Could also be juiced if have a juicer---and then you would add the pulp back in the juice. Hope Sonny feels better soon! Bye for now.
__________________
Avoid biting when a simple growl will do

The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying

Vindication ~ For all those pets who became sick or lost their lives from tainted pet food
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old April 18th, 2009, 12:50 AM
growler~GateKeeper's Avatar
growler~GateKeeper growler~GateKeeper is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 17,277
for Max
__________________
Avoid biting when a simple growl will do

The Spirit Lives As Long As Someone Who Lives Remembers You - Navaho Saying

Vindication ~ For all those pets who became sick or lost their lives from tainted pet food
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old April 18th, 2009, 07:52 AM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,884
growler, on both counts!

Not sure what, if any, effect all this has had on Max's kidneys...something that I'm sure the vet will discuss with Max's owners when they touch base today!
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old April 18th, 2009, 09:31 AM
corky/max's Avatar
corky/max corky/max is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cobb,Wi--very small place
Posts: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post
growler, on both counts!

Not sure what, if any, effect all this has had on Max's kidneys...something that I'm sure the vet will discuss with Max's owners when they touch base today!
Sorry, I don't know how to cut and paste---wish I did (and I have a couple books on computers but still not understanding it all--I'll have to go back and study a little harder I guess!) And thanks GROWLER for posting it here for me!! You missed the 1st post I wrote over there on that subject--#2 post I believe---Could you please "go get it" for me---if it is not too much trouble---Thanks in advance, really appreciate all your help.
After rereading your 1st post, HAZEL, it dawned on me that maybe Max is having prostrate problems---the blood---My Max had this problem--I'd find him in the morning with blood soaked under him in his bed--ended up getting him neutered because of it as suppose to help with that problem.--No prob. since and that was over 3 yrs. ago. Maybe should have the prostrate checked in to. Max also had ph of 9 and bacterial infection (before the prostrate problem) to do with crystals--If the other post I did in other forum ends up here----more info.
It sure sounds like that Max has had a hard life---poor dog! Hope things get better for him! :sad:


Just came back---That d___ prednisone is nothing but a cover-up---It does nothing to correct the problems--only stops the symptoms--gives relief (while on it) but as soon as it is taken away--everything comes back (never really left) I will never give my dogs this crap---It also can cause diabetes, hypothyroidism, and other problems--It messes up the immune system and if the dog has been on it a long time--very hard to get off of it and get 'things' working again. My mother's minature schnauzer was on this stuff a long time and ended up with diabetes because of it. My vet has instructions to never give my dogs this crap, Proin, or Rimadyl !! I wish the dog could be seen by a holistic vet---Most reg. vets know next to nothing about preventive measures or
how to cure a lot of things---most is cover-up the problem. Wish I had a holistic vet around close here---I'd switch vets in a 'heartbeat!' To me a reg vet is mainly to get tests (blood work) and to do necessary operations. Know nothing much about supplements,etc. My vet admitted to me that they only get about 1 day of schooling on that sort of thing and could not answer my questions on the subject!! Is there a holistic vet in your area?

Last edited by corky/max; April 18th, 2009 at 09:55 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old April 18th, 2009, 10:14 AM
corky/max's Avatar
corky/max corky/max is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cobb,Wi--very small place
Posts: 57
Thumbs up Hey growler

Quote:
Originally Posted by growler View Post
Hazel here's the post corky/max mentioned:
Thanks for the help in getting that post over here. Left you a message in the above post I just did to Hazel. Thanks again
Sure hope that Max (my dog is called Max too) gets the help he needs--the poor thing---I feel so sorry for a lot of dogs because so many people don't know how to treat them--respect that they have feelings and can feel pain the same way we can--don't know how to take care of them (and this can be also from ignorance)It is hard to know everything about doing the right things as dogs have a dif. 'make-up' than we do. Probably could say a bigger problem is not knowing all the things that can harm them. And HEY HAZEL--these comments are not directed at you (FOR SURE) or the owner of Max!! I'm just a big dog lover and wish I could help all dogs have a better life--I just get 'carried away' thinking about the dogs of this world.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old April 18th, 2009, 01:05 PM
rainbow's Avatar
rainbow rainbow is offline
-
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Beautiful BC's Kootenay Country
Posts: 34,759
Quote:
Originally Posted by corky/max View Post
Sorry, I don't know how to cut and paste---wish I did (and I have a couple books on computers but still not understanding it all--I'll have to go back and study a little harder I guess!) And thanks GROWLER for posting it here for me!! You missed the 1st post I wrote over there on that subject--#2 post I believe---Could you please "go get it" for me---if it is not too much trouble---Thanks in advance, really appreciate all your help.

Since Growler is working today here is the second post corky/max is referring to ....

Quote:
HI! Welcome to the forum. I wrote you a fairly long post yesterday--went to submit it and my darn computer (more like the cable co) acted up and 'knocked' the message out, which was totally disgusting. This was last night and I figured maybe it would be okay today---It wasn't--couldn't get the internet to come up at all---so I called my neighbor to see if she was having any problems (same provider) She said to unplug the little black cable box---one of the connections--and then plug it back in---It worked! Anyway I just can't write it all over again so this will be more to the point. Will just say 1st that I've had a little experience with the prob. you have. My one cocker had crystals and his ph was 9--had some kind of bacterial infection. (ended up finally being neutered as he had prostrate problems and this was the way to end that problem--no problems since (3 and a half yrs)
Will quote from a Dog Owner's Home Veterinary Handbook that I have: Bladder stones are common. All dogs can develop bladder stones. (I am leaving out a few sentences that are not important). Most bladder stones are STRUVITES which are composed of magnesium ammonium phosphate. They form in an ALKALINE URINE and are usually preceded by a bladder infection. The bacteria and urinary sediment form a nidus around which the ammonium phosphate is deposited. Struvite stones dissolve in an acid urine low in magnesium and protein. (I read somewhere that it doesn't have to be low in magnesium if the magnesium has an acid base--chlorine or sulfate or 2 pinches of Epsom salt.) The formation of new stones occurs in up to 30% of cases. The dog should be seen and checked at reg. intervals.---end of quotes. Now if you do a little "detective work", I doubt that the Bravo has anything to do with it unless it has a lot of alkaline ingred.--double check the label. A lot of veggies are alkaline, while the meat is acid.--then there is the issue with the magnesium--check that out too. I feed a raw food diet, although at time of Max's high ph of 9, I was feeding a home-cooked diet--don't know if cooking might have dif. effect than raw or not--kind of doubt it although the raw food is better digested. Anyway, when I found out how high the alkaline was (but wondering if it was also high because of the infection at the time--he also had a few seizures at this time--because of the infection or the high alkaline ph--?? Bottom line, it made me want to get the ph more acid (6.3-6.5 I think) esp. since these kind of stones form in an alkaline ph. Don't know how well this works, just telling you what I do to try to get more acidic.--I use a splash of BRAGG organic raw-unfiltered apple cider vinegar mixed in most of my 2 dog's meals--evening meal. I read you can put a little in their drinking water but it wasn't mentioned for that reason--suppose to get a dog to drink more water--makes them thirstier. I also feed tomatoes and apples--CRUSHED raw, mixed in with their meals. Better end this or it will get knocked out automatically because of being too long a post.
Forgot to mention--the reason for high alkaline ph(my dogs) I feed a lot of raw crushed veggies, still do but hoping the vinegar is helping!

And, lots more good wishes for Max
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old April 18th, 2009, 03:41 PM
corky/max's Avatar
corky/max corky/max is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cobb,Wi--very small place
Posts: 57
Cool Rainbow

Hey! Thanks for helping me out. And gee I might have to retract on feeding tomatoes---although I do it all the time and see no bad things happening because of it! I just read the website listing in here--under the post about the 15 most asked questions--the one on what foods are dangerous to feed dogs. Had heard of them all except about the tomatoes. Darn, I've been freezing my home-grown tomatoes (crushed) for my dogs for at least several yrs. now. It is one of the veggies I have most of and 'for free' and just planned to grow more than ever this year--now it kind of worries me even though you would think after all this time, if there was going to be a prob. with my dogs--it would have happened by now!! I do know a few other things that weren't mentioned in that list---like xylitol--a sugar free sweetener (prob. all diet sugar subs.) and bread dough--prob. more but can't think of them right now--was garlic mentioned--I do give that which is okay if you don't give too much--not more than 1 clove-crushed and mixed in with food---only give every other day or so. Again, thanks RAINBOW, really appreciate your help!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old April 18th, 2009, 03:44 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,884
Thanks, rainbow.

corky/max, all medicines have side effects, but sometimes they're necessary. If you have some other treatment for Addisons and autoimmune hemolytic anemia, Max's owner would love some suggestions--but so far, the only thing that's worked is the pred.

We had a dog with inflammatory bowel disease. We finally controlled it with diet, but first we needed some heavy duty pred therapy to knock it under control. Nothing else worked and it did the trick.

When I had my first case of asthma a few years ago, they put me on pred. I didn't like the litany of side effects, especially of course the ones I experienced, but my choice was 'prednisone' or 'not breathing'. See what I'm driving at? Sometimes, your choice is between a rock and a hard place and you have to decide based on possible benefits.

By the bye, I've had one dog on Proin for about 4 years now, and we just started another on Rimadyl for a few days. Our dogs tolerate both pretty well. When we start meds, we closely evaluate the effects on the dog--if they tolerate the med well and it works, then that's half the battle. If they don't, we try a different remedy.

Setters seem to be ultrasensitive to some things (erythromicin is one) and not so much to others, so we try to pick and choose the safest options for them. But just because a side effect is listed as possible, doesn't make it probable or even likely...

So with any meds, you have to weigh benefits against possible consequences and decide from there. Just my
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old April 19th, 2009, 03:15 PM
corky/max's Avatar
corky/max corky/max is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cobb,Wi--very small place
Posts: 57
WEB ADDRESS for some answers I just found

Don't know if you can get to it, Hazel but here is the address : http://www.b-naturals.com/newsletter...stone-crystal/ It will say page not found but if you see above where it has newsletters (in black)--click on that and scroll down a ways till you see December 2002--Bladder Stones + Crystals and click on it. Also find February 2009 (top article)--Diets for Special Health Needs--See dk. black words-Urinary Crystals about struvites and bottom paragraph under this heading beginning with words--In each of these conditions, etc. As I stated before--I don't know how to drag this over--if you can't get into it--maybe someone can bring it over for you! One thing I just found out (and I was wondering about this before) that the infection can cause the ph to be high and comes back down when the infection is gone! It sure irritates me
that my vet didn't tell me this because he knew I was especially concerned about the ph reading being 9 when my Max had his infection. Next time I see him---I'm going to mention it! Anyway, hope you see the info one way or another!

Last edited by corky/max; April 19th, 2009 at 05:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old April 19th, 2009, 09:53 PM
hazelrunpack's Avatar
hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
The Pack's Head Servant
Chopper Challenge Champion, Mini KickUps Champion, Bugz Champion, Snakeman Steve Champion, Shape Game Champion, Mumu Champion, Mouse Race Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Just east of the Hazelnut Patch, Wisconsin
Posts: 49,884
The culture won't be back till tomorrow or Tuesday. They cultured because they suspect an infection, but could see no obvious signs of it (other than the high pH and stones). that they'll be able to pinpoint a cause when the culture comes back. Meanwhile, they're using the cranberry supplements.
__________________
"We are--each of us--dying; it's how we live in the meantime that makes the difference."

"It's not what you gather, but what you scatter that tells what kind of life you have lived!"

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Terms of Use

  • All Bulletin Board Posts are for personal/non-commercial use only.
  • Self-promotion and/or promotion in general is prohibited.
  • Debate is healthy but profane and deliberately rude posts will be deleted.
  • Posters not following the rules will be banned at the Admins' discretion.
  • Read the Full Forum Rules

Forum Details

  • Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
    Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
    vBulletin Optimisation by vB Optimise (Reduced on this page: MySQL 0%).
  • All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:46 PM.