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Old January 27th, 2009, 02:22 PM
LadyWillow LadyWillow is offline
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Question Cats are fighting

Hi everyone. I'm new here and I have a huge problem I hope someone can help me with. I have 2 four yr. old brothers ( cats ) that are neutered and are inside cats. They are big boys, weighing 25-30 lb. and both are healthy. I live in southwestern Ontario and this year winter has been nasty and I had to rescue a tiny 2 yr. old from the outside. Now for the first week or two everything was fine. Then all of a sudden fur started to fly. Smokey is my cat and he has taken to me very well;almost to the point of over possessive and always needing my attention, while Billybob was so laid back that when smokey got playing to rough Billybob would run away. Now they are both double teaming on the little one and he is always laying in the defensive position, on his back with all fours ready to defend. They even pounce on him when he uses the litter. I have to take him to bed with me, but if he needs to use the litter, a cat fight starts and usually it's 2 or 3 in the morning. I am getting the little one his own litter box so we won't have problems in that area I hope. I read a link from here about multiple cats in the same household and the steps that are suppose to be taken, but I have a small living area and can't make any adjustments, plus because of the storm I didn't have time to do anything except bring him in. Does anyone have tips or advice that could possible help me? The water bottle doesn't work, they run, but just come back to do the same thing. I'm at my wits end and loosing sleep. Help please?
LW
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Old January 27th, 2009, 02:29 PM
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Ok, so baby steps. If you can't go out to get anything then there are things you can do. First off - separate them! Put the little one in your bathroom, door closed. May not be the most comfortable spot but at least he will be safe from two huge cats. It does not matter how big the room is. All the matters is that he is safe.
Do you have an under the bed storage box or any other plastic box you could use for a kitty litter box? With three cats the best you can do is one box for each cat plus one more. Seeing as you had no problem before then the one you have for yours is fine. But the little one needs his own.
In the bathroom set up a little bed area for the smaller kitty. Even if it is in your shower and you can move it out when you are showering. Put some toys, food, water, litter box in there and then........

read this......... http://www.squidoo.com/multi-cat-management

Best advice I can give you. Maybe someone else can come up with a different solution.
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Old January 28th, 2009, 08:45 AM
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I agree with 14+, the new kitty needs to be separated from your two boys for a while. The link she has given gives some excellent advice.
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Old January 28th, 2009, 10:55 AM
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I'm assuming your new little one is neutered? If not, he should be right away.

Sorry, but you shouldn't take little one to bed with you..."Smokey" is it? This is only fuelling jealousy with your big boys, as they see he's getting "special privileges", and they make him pay for it by attacking him. I agree keeping him separated is the best for him at least for a while. You definitely don't want him getting attacked going in the litter pan....this could lead to peeing/pooping in other places. I would pay more attention to your big boys at this time. Putting little one=Smokey in the bathroom at night is a good idea. I do suggest feeding Smokey in separate area, and moving his dish closer to the others very gradually. Only let Smokey be with the other two under your supervision. If the other two are behaving well with Smokey, give positive reinforcement="Good boys" and affectionate rubs. Playing with all three of them together by using a feather toy on long stick and flicking it at each one in turn for a little play gets them in the mood for being together....then give them all some treats. This way you aren't singling any one of them out for special attention. Gradually they may be able to have a hormonious relationship, but with cats not always guaranteed.
Keep us posted. Good luck
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Old January 28th, 2009, 12:01 PM
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Good advice already given. I will also agree, you need to separate the little guy. Introductions need to be done slowly. I've made this mistake before and paid for it. Even if your place is small, putting him in a room by himself should be doable. The bathroom, as 14+ suggested, or maybe you can leave him in the bedroom while you are gone at work.

When I brought home Oksana (my second) I kept her in the bedroom for about a week. She slept in her carrier, which allowed me to let Vlad into the room at night. I introduced her to him by bringing her out a few hours in a carrier.

When I brought in Czarina (my 5th and a stray) the second time around, because the first time I totally messed things up, I kept her in the kitchen. My current apartment is a loft and therefore no doors in the room. My master bath is where one of the litterboxes is kept, so not wanting to mess with things too much, I set the kitchen up for her.

I covered the pass through with screen material to keep the others from getting in, and I used a bamboo screen as a door for the kitchen. I was able to keep Czari in and the others out, but they could all still see each other. I kept her in there for about 4 or 5 months, maybe three I can't remember.

You likely won't need to keep them separated that long, but you do need to give them all time to get used to each other's presence and scent. Maybe get a towel and rub it on your little guy and put it on your duo's sleeping places.

It takes time so patience is certainly a virtue here. Good luck and bless you for bringing this little guy in from the cold.
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Old January 29th, 2009, 09:27 AM
LadyWillow LadyWillow is offline
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Smile Re: Cats Are Fighting

Hey everyone. To answer Catlover 2, he isn't neutered yet; when I get the money then I'll get him done. I took 14+ advice, plan A and put him in the in the bathroom in the shower the night before last with litter tray, warm blanket, & food and water. We have shower doors that slide and they bind a bit when we pull them. Baby managed to pull them open and continued to scratch at the floor & door, to the point we had to let him out. Plan B, last night, the same thing, only in the laundry room, but with more room and space. We got up this morning & there was a disaster in the laundry room.The spare fridge freezer door was wide open and the door to open the room opens in and the freezer door was in front of it. I craft staffs, they were all scattered on the floor, onion bag was torn to shreds, all the coats that were hung, were not; they were on the floor also and wet and my linoleum floor was ripped away from the door. We had to fight to get in the room. It costs about $140.00 to get him neutered, which I don't have and I have to save for, which will be hard.
So does anyone have a plan C
LW
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Old January 29th, 2009, 09:39 AM
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Awww geezzzz, I didn't mean put HIM in the shower! I meant put the litter box in the shower IF you didn't have enough room in the bathroom for it on the floor somewhere!
He needs to get fixed. Can you borrow some cash from family, credit card, something to get him done? It may not calm him down right away but it will help. Not to mention the damage that has been done could be just because of hormones.
Baby steps are what is needed. Put him in a room where he can't do damage. Strange that he was ok with you at night but now he is doing that much damage. You need to start over with the introductions if you want this to succeed.
You need to keep the kitties separated 24/7 for a little while. The two dominants are pulling a number on him that is just not fair or right. Attacking him in the litterbox is going to mean lots of issues in the future. He will get to the point where he will not use the box!
Did you look at the site I gave you? This woman has lived it! She knows what she is talking about. Quite a few of us have as well. It is important that you start over with the intros and go s l o w l y!!

FYI - when you take him to get fixed he will smell differently than he did before he went to the other two. A little baby powder on your hands, rubbed together, and petted on all three of them will make them smell the same. Or use a little vanilla under the chin.
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Old January 29th, 2009, 09:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyWillow View Post
Hey everyone. To answer Catlover 2, he isn't neutered yet; when I get the money then I'll get him done. I took 14+ advice, plan A and put him in the in the bathroom in the shower the night before last with litter tray, warm blanket, & food and water. We have shower doors that slide and they bind a bit when we pull them. Baby managed to pull them open and continued to scratch at the floor & door, to the point we had to let him out. Plan B, last night, the same thing, only in the laundry room, but with more room and space. We got up this morning & there was a disaster in the laundry room.The spare fridge freezer door was wide open and the door to open the room opens in and the freezer door was in front of it. I craft staffs, they were all scattered on the floor, onion bag was torn to shreds, all the coats that were hung, were not; they were on the floor also and wet and my linoleum floor was ripped away from the door. We had to fight to get in the room. It costs about $140.00 to get him neutered, which I don't have and I have to save for, which will be hard.
So does anyone have a plan C
LW
First of all, did you check to see if he had any of the onion? If he ingested any onion take him to the vet immediately, as onion is toxic to cats.

If you see none of the actual onion were disturbed he may not have had any so you are probably safe.

The laundry room sounded like a good idea, but the thing with cats, especially kittens is you really have to work at getting things kitty/cat proof. Especially if you are putting them somewhere where they normally would not be spending a lot of time. The bathroom sounds like another good place. Perhaps try again, but you can place something on the door to prevent him from scratching. Maybe you can buy some inexpensive plastic sheeting and put it on the door. Or when you hear him scratching at the door, have a sprayer and shoot some water spray under the door, or air spray. Air spray will sound like hissing, and might detract him further.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 10:47 AM
LadyWillow LadyWillow is offline
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Smile Re: Cats Are Fighting

Thanks for all the advice & suggestion. He is 2 years old, not a kitten, but he's the size of a 6 month old. He will not use his own litter, and insists on using the big boy's. So I scoop his business into his tray hoping he'll use it. The shower & the bathroom was big enough, with room to spare, but the fact was he didn't like being confined & he scratch the heck out of my door & floor. I already mentioned about the laundry incident and again I think it's a confinement issue. So last night I had to go to plan C. So he would be safe while I slept, I had to put him in a cat carrier, which again he was confined, but there was no damage & he was safe. He did make quite a commotion for the first while, which I felt bad about & hubby mentioned that it must be traumatic for him. But the point is to keep him safe.
This morning hubby brought the cat carrier down & let him out & he was fine. I am certainly learning body language though & giving praises & treats when it's appropriate. Baby is his name because he is so small, even tries to rub up against Smokey, who is the most aggressive one, with me with my hand between them. I know what to expect from Smokey, but it's Billybob, the other big boy I don't trust. One minute he's licking Baby's ears, which I thought was great, & in an instant he's chomping down on Baby's neck. He's the sneaky one.
As far as getting Baby fixed, just as soon as I get the money he will be done. It's just that we are on a very fixed income, I'm on Canadian disability, & hubby's on unemployment. When the boy's were done, they were 2 months old and have never been outside & only cost $40.00 dollars each & my niece paid for Billybob. I know it will be more for the Baby because he's older and weighs more.
I don't know at this point which is worse, leaving him out with the big boy's at night where he's unsafe or confining him which also stresses him out. I'm going with the cat carrier again tonight. Maybe he'll settle down in the next few nights.
LW
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Old January 30th, 2009, 10:59 AM
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Have you checked your local humane society to see if they have a low cost neuter/spay clinic for low income families? I know ours does.

Also you mentioned the chomping down on the neck that Billybob is doing to Baby. I have to tell you that Sweet Pea does that to kittens (including hers) and to the love of her life, Jasper. Not sure why they do it but it is always during grooming sessions with each other. It was horrifying when I saw Sweet Pea do this to one of her kittens, I thought she was trying to choke it, but the kitten loved it and stuck around her . Now I just ignore it.

Is there true fighting (hissing, growling, raised fur) when this happens between your kitties?
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Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

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Old January 30th, 2009, 11:05 AM
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Czarina does this to Maks all the time(I've even posted a picture of her doing it to him), and Maks does it to Kiska and Czarina. The one that gets bitten will wait a few seconds and then usually turn and meow loudly and just try to get away. Sometimes they will fight and hiss for a few seconds then go about their business. LOL
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Old January 30th, 2009, 11:09 AM
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What does Smokey do when Baby rubs against him? It sounds like Baby is not too scared and that Smokey didn't show any aggressive body language to Baby.
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Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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Old January 30th, 2009, 11:27 AM
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I have a 1 1/2 year old male who was recently introduced to a younger cat who was half his size(once mamma decided he wouldn't eat her precious baby.) I haven't seen your cats so I can't say for sure, but it sounds like what Seuss would do to MooBoots. He would wrestle, then bite, and Mooby would howl. I would take Mooby away to a safe room and he would run straight to Seuss so I decided he wasn't being seriously injured. Gradually, MooBoots complained less and less. A wrestling match now usually starts with one guy washing the others ears, they will wash each other for, literally, seconds, then one will bite down and the "fight" will commence.
Now, I didn't leave them unsupervisedtogether right away, and I referred the fights to make sure they didn't go from play to real fighting. You know your cats, what does their body language say? Is it a real fight with raised hackles, fluffed tails, flattened ears? Are their pupils really wide? (sign of excitement or anxiety or low light)
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Old January 30th, 2009, 01:16 PM
LadyWillow LadyWillow is offline
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Smile Re: Cats Are Fighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
What does Smokey do when Baby rubs against him? It sounds like Baby is not too scared and that Smokey didn't show any aggressive body language to Baby.
When Baby tries to rub up to Smokey, my hands are between them. Smokey's ears are slightly down & he crouches. We just now noticed when Smokey went to go pass Baby, Baby fell on his side, with his ears flat & paws were swinging.
Smokey has charged Baby from behind and fur had flown.
Do you think Baby's actions are automatic, to go to defense mode from being attacked outside & having to protect himself? This is so frustrating!

I know of five other people that have more than 3 cats in the house some have 7, one person I know has a whole room full about 22, some spayed & neutered, some not, mostly strays & they have not gone through what I am going through. I'll just have to keep a good eye on them.
I'll keep you up dated.
LW
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Old January 30th, 2009, 01:24 PM
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Baby is going into submissive mode when he falls on his side, this is good news, because it is showing he doesn't want to fight. Is there growling accompanied with their interactions?

Jasper does this to Sweet Pea when he thinks she is going to attack. What he doesn't know is he is twice as strong as her . And there will be fur flying, but they are just playing. (I thought it was much too rough, but they still love each other afterwards so I let them be).
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Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

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Old January 30th, 2009, 01:27 PM
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When Sweet Pea goes for Puddles, her fur is fluffed there is growling and hissing. If cats are actually fighting, they will also scream, not just hiss. Snowball , was a huge fighter (he was a tiny 7lb male) with cats that came into our yard. When he was done, there was enough fur to stuff a pillow and they were loud.
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Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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Old January 30th, 2009, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Baby is going into submissive mode when he falls on his side, this is good news, because it is showing he doesn't want to fight. Is there growling accompanied with their interactions?

Jasper does this to Sweet Pea when he thinks she is going to attack. What he doesn't know is he is twice as strong as her . And there will be fur flying, but they are just playing. (I thought it was much too rough, but they still love each other afterwards so I let them be).
Mine all do it with each other at one point or another. I've seen Maks submit to Vlad and Vlad to Maks while they are playing. When Vlad is being nasty with Oksana, she will submit too, until I yell and start moving towards Vlad, at which he makes a very hasty retreat. Kiska will do it for Oksana and Oksana will do it with Kiska too.

I haven't seen Czari submit to anybody yet though. I get the feeling she ain't about that.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
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I haven't seen Czari submit to anybody yet though. I get the feeling she ain't about that.
Sweet Pea either.
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Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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Old January 30th, 2009, 01:33 PM
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Those crazy girls.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 03:56 PM
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If your main objective is to keep baby safe then how about you try a large dog crate? It doesn't sound like you want them separated during the day, which is what my original suggestion was, but just at night so....... if you can find a large size dog crate then you can set it up for Baby with a litter box, toys, etc at night. Put a comfy blanket in for him and he will be comfy. I always have my crate set up in my kitchen for kitties to spend the night. It causes a lot less heartache for newer cats who have to defend themselves against the bigger, bully cats. And at 25 - 30 lbs when they are attacking this poor guy in the litter box they are bully cats.
If Baby won't use the litter box you have for him then put the other one in the crate with him and let the other ones use the new one.
I have not heard of a vet charging more for a neuter because a cat is older and bigger. It just does not work that way.
I see you are in Southwestern Ont. If you let us know what city maybe someone can give you a number for a low cost s/n program. A lot of cities have them.
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Old January 30th, 2009, 11:41 PM
LadyWillow LadyWillow is offline
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Smile Re: Cats Are Fighting

Quote:
Originally Posted by 14+kitties View Post
If your main objective is to keep baby safe then how about you try a large dog crate? It doesn't sound like you want them separated during the day, which is what my original suggestion was, but just at night so....... if you can find a large size dog crate then you can set it up for Baby with a litter box, toys, etc at night. Put a comfy blanket in for him and he will be comfy. I always have my crate set up in my kitchen for kitties to spend the night. It causes a lot less heartache for newer cats who have to defend themselves against the bigger, bully cats. And at 25 - 30 lbs when they are attacking this poor guy in the litter box they are bully cats.
If Baby won't use the litter box you have for him then put the other one in the crate with him and let the other ones use the new one.
I have not heard of a vet charging more for a neuter because a cat is older and bigger. It just does not work that way.
I see you are in Southwestern Ont. If you let us know what city maybe someone can give you a number for a low cost s/n program. A lot of cities have them.
I am going to get a crate larger than a cat carrier & yes being able to watch them during the day has seemed to help. We only had 2 spats today and Baby went to bed happy, with no problems. I knew I was right about baby being in submissive mode, but it made sense the way my husband seen it. He thought laying on his back with all fours, sharp claws exposed, he was challenging & ready to fight.

I have been told by vet technicians that the bigger the cat, the more anesthetic they have to give for a longer time because of weight & age. When the boys were done at 2 months, it only took about 45 minutes to an hour & they were done. I live in the country rural route & the surrounding cities are Brantford, Paris, Burford, & Woodstock. Thanks for everyone's advice; it really has helped.
LW
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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:34 PM
kellykvent kellykvent is offline
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Fighting Cats

I thought I was doing a great thing by getting a kitten for my 14year old who lost her brother a year ago this month. This had to be the worst thing. I have had "wheeler" for 9 months about since he is a kitten he wants to play so badly with her. But she does not like him. She is always hissing and screaming and I have to keep "HER" locked up with me in another room. SO he has the run of the house which isn't fair. How can I get these 2 gets to finally get along. OR will it never happen? She has asthma so I don't want her to stressed, she is also older and my number one girl. Any suggestions.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 02:41 PM
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Did you introduce them slowly or did you just put them together right away? Introductions should always be done slowly.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyWillow View Post
I have been told by vet technicians that the bigger the cat, the more anesthetic they have to give for a longer time because of weight & age. When the boys were done at 2 months, it only took about 45 minutes to an hour & they were done. I live in the country rural route & the surrounding cities are Brantford, Paris, Burford, & Woodstock. Thanks for everyone's advice; it really has helped.
LW
Sorry. I didn't see this part of the thread. I have never heard of vets charging more for bigger cats. Weird.
You aren't too far away from TO then. They have opened Spay Central in TO now. The telephone # is 905-898-6112. Cats cost $50 to be done there. Needles are $10, microchipping is $15. Chris has said because they are just open to expect a delay. It may be 24 hrs after you call and leave a message but they will get back to you. Don't give up. You can't beat the price.

I am glad things are settling down a little. It is quite possible kitties just need some down time for themselves. I have one I have to put into a crate on her own occasionally. She gets stressed easily with all the others around. It gives her a chance to chill.
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Old February 13th, 2009, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellykvent View Post
I thought I was doing a great thing by getting a kitten for my 14year old who lost her brother a year ago this month. This had to be the worst thing. I have had "wheeler" for 9 months about since he is a kitten he wants to play so badly with her. But she does not like him. She is always hissing and screaming and I have to keep "HER" locked up with me in another room. SO he has the run of the house which isn't fair. How can I get these 2 gets to finally get along. OR will it never happen? She has asthma so I don't want her to stressed, she is also older and my number one girl. Any suggestions.
Check out..........

http://www.squidoo.com/multi-cat-management

It has a wealth of very good information. Start over with her suggestions. It is not too late to have a peaceful household.
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We can stick our heads in the sand for only so long before it starts choking us. Face it folks. The pet population is bad ALL OVER THE WORLD!
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