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Old December 24th, 2008, 04:19 AM
escapar escapar is offline
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Unhappy Vicious Family Dog ...I've had almost enough. Help ??



Toothy is a Jack Russel Cross.

She will be one year old on the 24th of December.

Not spayed yet.

Other pets in the house include three cats.

She is mostly Training Pad trained.

I used to keep Toothy in a one of those Metal Fence things. It's around 16 square feet. She spent her time during the day in there when I was at work until I got a FINAL NOTICE from the Bylaw that if my dog didn't shut up I would get a fine. Then I got a baby gate and trapped her in my bedroom. We spend most of our time in this room. TV, computer...couch ...so it's not like she's abandoned in the house.

She has rawhide bones, beef marrow soup bones and several chew toys. And still she chews my bed, the wall, pillows and blankets,phones, tv remotes..... She once got onto the dresser and ate an entire bottle of anti inflammatories. Didn't even throw up.

Toothy, full name Toothpick (Toothache when I'm mad at her) pees on her training pad but poops on the only piece of carpeting left in my bedroom. I've had to tear up most of it but under/beside my bed I cant because I have a water bed.

Toothy also poops on the floor in other parts of the house that she has acess to. usually what I do is clean up the mess and then move her food and water dishes to that area. Hopefully the message she's getting is that 'I shouldn't poop where I eat'.

I don't really understand the pooping troubles because most nights she wakes me up to go outside ...she's relentless ...won't leave me alone until I let her outside. Sometimes when we come back in...I find a little present waiting for me !! AAAHHHH!!

Toothy is a robust, horse like little dog. Lately, she's become very scary. She bit my 9 year old son when he tried to pull a blanket away that she was chewing. Broke the skin on his hand and there was blood.

Tonight, she growled at me when I tried to snuggle her. I thought she was going to bite me.

My son and I have tried to 'explain' to the dog that we are Alpha and she is not. We eat first, then the dog. Sometimes my son gives Toothy her food.

When I come home from work I send her outside, ignoring her until she goes outside to pee and poop. Then we play.

Numerous times when she growls fiercely at me ...I growl back as meanly as I can and force her to do what I want. Lay down with me ...snuggle...what ever. Tonight though when she snarled at me ...I knew she wanted to bite me. Just take a chunk out of my face. I got a hold of her and forced her to lay down with me for about 20 minutes. When she was still ...then I let her go.

One more thing...Toothy is a very smart dog. She knows how to unzip my back pack, remove what she wants and then zip it up again. Nothing is safe from the dog.

She's bouncy enough that she can jump onto the kitchen cupboards.

I love my crazy dog but I surely don't like her very much. I've thought about taking her to the SPCA but honestly, I'm pretty mellow and if I can't put up with her ...

In the summer, we go down to the river to let her run. In the winter, because I have a bad hip we don't do much of anything. I don't think this has anything to do with anything because she's always been rotten ...since day one.

She terrorizes the cats ...Phoebe understand the phrase "Come on, I'll help you" now. When Toothy gets Phoebe too scared I tell her "Come on, I'll help you" and she jumps into my arms. This is how bad the dog is ....that the cat is learning 'tricks'.

The whole house is run in an effort to keep the dog under control. Gates everywhere, everything is up high ...the dog runs the household.

I don't understand how she can be so bad ???? I don't want to take her to the SPCA or have her put down but I can't have her attacking my son either. We need some help please.

Last edited by escapar; December 24th, 2008 at 04:27 AM.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 06:08 AM
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Sounds to me like you haven't done a great job socializing or training this dog. Destructive behaviour is usually due to boredom, lack of excercise and or companionship. Get her enrolled in some training classes that you and your son can attend. She won't be able to attend classes if she goes into heat, so you may need to get her spayed first. You can always have a trainer come to the house as well.

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Old December 24th, 2008, 07:27 AM
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I am not a dog-owner,but it seems to me you were unprepared for a Jack Russel,they have an endless supply of energy and need to be kept busy,needs training.
I would start with having her spayed,then go to training-classes.
Constantly being shut in behind gates probably only adds to her anxiety.
Someone here,I am sure will suggest having her leashed to you in the house,to correct her behavior,chasing the cats is a no-no,something that could lead to serious injuries to them.
JRT's have a great prey-drive,maybe you did not research the breed before adopting her??

I do not think she is a"bad"dog,only misunderstood,she needs a regular schedule for pee/poop breaks,not pee-pads at 1 yr old.IMO
I know several JRT's that are wonderful dogs,one of them my sons Kita ,incredibly destructive as a puppy,but with the right training,turned in to a great,fun dog.
Also,as you say,they are very smart dogs and she will pick up on your frustration and act accordingly.
You'll have to start with her,as if she was new to the household,positive training, encouragement and love is what she needs.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 07:34 AM
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You've been given great advice. JRT's are a hyper dog that need tons of socialization and exercise.
Maybe one of our beloved members can give you the name of a JRT rescue so Toothy doesn't have to be taken to the SPCA to be put down. That will be her fate if you tell them she is snappy; also a trait for quite a few small dogs who do not get the excercise and stimulation they need.
But please, first things first, she needs to be spayed!
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Old December 24th, 2008, 07:45 AM
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Everybody has given great advice. JRT's are very hyper dogs and need alot of excercise. My uncle and aunt adopted a JRT without understanding these traits. They do not take him for runs or walks. But that is what he craves. Please consider training your JRT before doing anything drastic. In time you will see a dramatic change in your dog. Patience will be the key in the training process. I wish you and your dog the best of luck. Please don't give up on your dog!
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Old December 24th, 2008, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escapar View Post


Toothy is a Jack Russel Cross.

She will be one year old on the 24th of December.

Not spayed yet.

You have an EXTREMELY intelligent, stubborn, strong-willed, and high-energy breed. You should have know this going into getting the dog...Jack Russels are NOT like "Eddie" on Fraser, they are dogs that require A LOT OF WORK and patience to live harmoniously. She is young and therefore the energy she has to burn is going to be HUGE. She is not spayed, so her hormones are throwing all kinds of messages to her body, which is going to make your job even more difficult. Get the dog spayed.

She is mostly Training Pad trained.

By "mostly" do you mean, she will choose to use the pad most of the time when it's available, or she has been trained to use the pad more than to go outside. If it's the latter, you're asking for trouble...you are encouraging your dog to use your house as a toilet. It's going to be very difficult to convince her to potty only in a particular place in your house. You are teaching her to soil her own "den". With very few exceptions, dogs should ALWAYS be trained to potty outside, in a designated area chosen by you, and ideally should be trained to potty on command (i.e. with a "go pee" or "go potty").

I used to keep Toothy in a one of those Metal Fence things. It's around 16 square feet. She spent her time during the day in there when I was at work until I got a FINAL NOTICE from the Bylaw that if my dog didn't shut up I would get a fine. Then I got a baby gate and trapped her in my bedroom. We spend most of our time in this room. TV, computer...couch ...so it's not like she's abandoned in the house.

She has rawhide bones, beef marrow soup bones and several chew toys. And still she chews my bed, the wall, pillows and blankets,phones, tv remotes..... She once got onto the dresser and ate an entire bottle of anti inflammatories. Didn't even throw up.

I have no trouble with a dog being crated or confined to a smaller room while it's owners are at work. However, given the high-energy needs of your dog, are you compensating for this time by exercising her VIGOROUSLY at LEAST 2-3 times a day? By vigorously, I mean, are you taking her for brisk walks that are lasting at least half an hour, accompanied perhaps by training sessions or fetch/frisbee sessions? If not, your dog is going to find other ways to burn off her energy...by being destructive and chewing your things. Sounds to me like your dog is horribly bored. She needs to be challenged physically and mentally. Remember: A tired dog is a good dog.

Toothy, full name Toothpick (Toothache when I'm mad at her) pees on her training pad but poops on the only piece of carpeting left in my bedroom. I've had to tear up most of it but under/beside my bed I cant because I have a water bed.

Toothy also poops on the floor in other parts of the house that she has acess to. usually what I do is clean up the mess and then move her food and water dishes to that area. Hopefully the message she's getting is that 'I shouldn't poop where I eat'.

I don't really understand the pooping troubles because most nights she wakes me up to go outside ...she's relentless ...won't leave me alone until I let her outside. Sometimes when we come back in...I find a little present waiting for me !! AAAHHHH!!

Ok. If she cannot be trusted to "hold it" in the room, then you need to re-potty train her. Pretend she's a 12 week old puppy. Establish a strict routine where she is taken out first thing in the morning, just before you leave for work, and as soon as you get home from work, 15 minutes after each meal, after she awakes from naps and after vigourous play/chewing sessions, and just before bed. You should invest in a crate and train her to be comfortable with it. She should be crated when you're not at home, and should sleep in it at night. She will be much less likely to soil her own "bed".

Toothy is a robust, horse like little dog. Lately, she's become very scary. She bit my 9 year old son when he tried to pull a blanket away that she was chewing. Broke the skin on his hand and there was blood.

Tonight, she growled at me when I tried to snuggle her. I thought she was going to bite me.

My son and I have tried to 'explain' to the dog that we are Alpha and she is not. We eat first, then the dog. Sometimes my son gives Toothy her food.

When I come home from work I send her outside, ignoring her until she goes outside to pee and poop. Then we play.

I'm glad you understand that you need to be the leader of your pack, but it sounds like you haven't accomplished it yet. Your son was bit because he tried to take away a "resource"...Toothy thinks that SHE owns the resources (ie is alpha) in the house so she disciplined your son for taking something away without her permission. Jacks are going to test your leadership every chance you get, so you can't give them so much as even a tiny bit of wiggle room until she's got her "place" figured out. Some suggestions: Take away all extra "resources" in the house. No toys/bones/blankies lying around. She gets toys at playtimes outside/inside (which will be initiated by you, not her) and she gets good-quality chew toys (be careful with the heavy soup bones, those can break teeth) when she is in her crate. The dog no longer is allowed on ANY furniture. Not a bed, not a couch. Provide her with her own blanket or bed. Put her on a leash when you're at home, and tie that leash to your belt. This is called "umbellical". Don't talk to the dog or even look at her. Simply go about your business and she will have to watch you for direction and follow your lead. If she tries to get on furniture or had an object in her mouth that she shouldn't, you can use the leash to remove her or redirect her...it will give you some added control and safety. Also start practicing NILF (nothing in life for free). Your dog should work for everything she gets...every pet, every meal, every walk every play time. Working can be as simple as obeying a "sit" or "watch me" command. Walking with her will also help establish your leadership role..."throwing her outside" is not going to help. Your whole family, including your son, must be on board with this.

Numerous times when she growls fiercely at me ...I growl back as meanly as I can and force her to do what I want. Lay down with me ...snuggle...what ever. Tonight though when she snarled at me ...I knew she wanted to bite me. Just take a chunk out of my face. I got a hold of her and forced her to lay down with me for about 20 minutes. When she was still ...then I let her go.

Ok, it bothers me that you are forcing her to lay down with you or snuggle. Just because she's a small dog does NOT mean she wants to be a lap dog. Jacks are not bred to be lap dogs they are bred to flush rodents and other wild animals out of holes, they are hunters. Don't try to make her be something she's not. Are you on the couch with her here? She should not be on the furniture.

One more thing...Toothy is a very smart dog. She knows how to unzip my back pack, remove what she wants and then zip it up again. Nothing is safe from the dog.

Have you tried taking advantage of the intelligence and done any obedience training with her? Agility? Flyball? Anything challenging?
She's bouncy enough that she can jump onto the kitchen cupboards.

I love my crazy dog but I surely don't like her very much. I've thought about taking her to the SPCA but honestly, I'm pretty mellow and if I can't put up with her ...

Please do not take her to a shelter. Because she has bitten, she will likely be euthanized. If you are not willing/able to step up and be a strong, consistent, leader for your Jack, please contact a breed-specific rescue so she can be placed with a family who understands the breed and can manage her (IMO very typical JRT behaviour) effectively.

In the summer, we go down to the river to let her run. In the winter, because I have a bad hip we don't do much of anything. I don't think this has anything to do with anything because she's always been rotten ...since day one.

THIS ABSOLUTELY HAS A LOT TO DO WITH IT. Again, this dog needs vigourous exercise, daily. If you can't do it, get the kiddos, a neighbour or a dog-walker to do it. This is likely one of the biggest causes of your problems

She terrorizes the cats ...Phoebe understand the phrase "Come on, I'll help you" now. When Toothy gets Phoebe too scared I tell her "Come on, I'll help you" and she jumps into my arms. This is how bad the dog is ....that the cat is learning 'tricks'.

Again, JRTs are bred to chase and kill small animals. She is going to have a very high prey drive and will naturally want to chase your cats. You need to a) work with her to train her to understand the behaviour is not acceptable b) provide the cats with a safe haven (cat tree etc.) where they can't be bothered c) give your dog an outlet to safely "chase" things...like toys.

The whole house is run in an effort to keep the dog under control. Gates everywhere, everything is up high ...the dog runs the household.

This is a HUGE red flag. If you can't get things under control on your own, please enlist the help of a qualified trainer with JRT experience. If you can't or won't do this, then please surrender your dog to a reputable JRT rescue.

I don't understand how she can be so bad ???? I don't want to take her to the SPCA or have her put down but I can't have her attacking my son either. We need some help please.
She is not bad, she is a perfectly normal JRT and you need to make some serious changes in your relationship with the dog. Right now you are doing a HUGE disservice to your dog, and NONE of the problems you're having are the dog's fault, they're yours. Unless you're 100% willing to make BIGTIME changes or take the time to find a good rescue to rehome the dog, the dog is going to be miserable, you are going to be held hostage, and/or someone is going to get seriously hurt. Sorry if I'm being harsh, but too many people get dogs without researching the breed beforehand, and then it's the dog who suffers from it.
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Last edited by bendyfoot; December 24th, 2008 at 09:24 AM.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 09:05 AM
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After reading this thread over and over I am inclined to tell you to find a JRT rescue for the sake of the dog. I don't understand why people don't research the dog breed before they buy it. Things are only going to get worse with your training methods and someone(probably the dog) is going to get hurt. Try and find a rescue that will take her.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 10:19 AM
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You have gotton some great advice here. I have no more to add but I feel Toothy needs way more excerice and something to keep her occupited. It would be very sad if you gave her to a shelter to be killed when she is doing the only thing she knows how to do. A really good training class would do wonders after she was spayed
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Old December 24th, 2008, 10:35 AM
Jim Hall Jim Hall is offline
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yup ypoi got to wear her out . i had a jrt foster and 3 hrs of play just about did it get her apyed also that will settle her down some
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Old December 24th, 2008, 12:13 PM
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I hope you take the advice given to you. I would hate to see your dog suffer because it has not been given the training and attention it needs. If you don't think you can dedicate the time and energy you should consider rehoming to a family who has the experience to deal with a high energy dog.

Good luck.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 12:46 PM
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The italics are responses from other posters. My comments follow them.



I have no trouble with a dog being crated or confined to a smaller room while it's owners are at work.

She was in her 'cage' previously until the Bylaw came and left the FINAL notice. I can't have my dog barking....my
neighbour across the street told me she barks for 8 hours at a time. Non Stop. Jeepers, she has a bark that makes me
want to pull my ears off. Doesn't surprise me at all that my neighbours complained. Because she's a rambunctious
dog ...I don't really like to confine her to her cage while I'm a t work. I chose my bedroom because this is where
we are most of the time (It was October the last time I was in the living room), it is the largest room in the house so
she can jump around, run around ....and because this is where we sleep she has 'sort of' limited her messing to the
Training Pad.


Ok, it bothers me that you are forcing her to lay down with you or snuggle.


I do that because I want her to understand that she is not the boss...I am and she MUST do what I WANT.

THIS ABSOLUTELY HAS A LOT TO DO WITH IT. Again, this dog needs vigourous exercise, daily. If you can't do it, get the kiddos, a neighbour or a dog-walker to do it. This is likely one of the biggest causes of your problems

She was bad even when she was getting alot of exercise. The kids around here won't take her for walks/runs because she's a nightmare. On the leash she pulls until she vomits. Down at the river where she can run freely ......she runs away. LOL, I just can't take her to the river when it's -30 C and I'm going to have to spend 2 hours trying to find the dog. She's to ferocious to take to the confined dog parks.


By "mostly" do you mean, she will choose to use the pad most of the time when it's available, or she has been trained to use the pad more than to go outside

She has the pee pads because work sometimes had me away from home for 14 hours a day. It's unrealistic to expect her to 'hold it' for that length of time as a puppy. She'll use it if she happens to be beside it at the time it strikes it that she has to go.

she needs a regular schedule for pee/poop breaks,not pee-pads at 1 yr old.IMO

She has a regular schedule. And it's been exactly the same for the last 365 days.



I don't understand why people don't research the dog breed before they buy it.

I was told by her mothers owner that she would be a very nice little dog. That the other
litters of puppies were mellow little buggers (the momma is S hitzu), patient and gentle.

I've lots of experience with puppies and dogs. I used to Foster puppies and large breed dogs
...I took the animals nobody else could handle. Mostly St. Bernards and Rottweiler puppies.
I've never seen anything like this before.

This isn't about lack of research .....I didn't just on impulse get her.



We did the Umbilical Thing. For months when I first got her. She was on her leash attached to me.
I don't remember exactly but it was around 2 months ....all night when I got home from work. She would cry the whole time ...and not learn
a damn thing. The only
time she was loose was when she was outside in the yard. She does sleep in the bed with us ...it seems the only way to keep her from peeing/ pooping
whereever.


I live in a Cul de Sac where there are 16 children that are scared to death of this dog. It's not a lack
of socialization ....my son has friends over all the time...some of them won't come in if she's loose.
I used to take her when I visited pals with dogs....but she's not welcome anymore.


Toothy was the runt of the litter....I'm wondering if maybe she has some 'brain damage' ??? I'm serious
...she seems impossible to learn anything that I want her too. Even for treats she won't come when she's called.
She does wake me up at night to go outside...so she knows that but now I'm wondering what she does out there ??


Still, it seems nobody has addressed the Major Issue: Why is she vicious ??? She's not teased, mistreated
....even when she was a tiny puppy of 3 or 4 months: my son and I were scared of her.



The reason she isn't spayed....is because I've been laid off twice this year. I'm a welder and times are tough. The money just isn't there. Whilst I've
been laid off I spend my entire days with the dog.

I really need to know what to do about the Biting. I know that the SPCA will put her down. The Rescue Organizations don't want her because she bites. What is happening that makes her bite???

One more thing...I love sleeping with my dog. I love sitting with her on the couch. I'm not changing that.

I don't really want to give her up anyways. I want her to not be so ferocious. I fully expected her to be a puppy and do puppy things for the first two years. It's no surprise to me that she ate the cushions on the couch, that she can open my backpack ...what caught me off guard is that she's so mean. How did that happen?
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Old December 24th, 2008, 01:14 PM
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Wow! You do have some good advice here. I am going to throw my into the ring.

I recommend going back to the crate. Crate train Toothy instead of locking him up in a baby gated room. Run him and give him lots of exercise before you put him in the crate. Keep the crate in your bedroom but crate him. He will be less destructive in the crate and won't be going to the bathroom all over the house. Kongs are great for this. If he has sep. anxiety in the crate trying getting a Dog Appeasing Phermone Plug in and plug it in beside the crate. How did you introduce the crate to him the first place. You will probably need to do the proper introduction again.

Everyone is right JRTs are HYPER!!! They need LOTS of exercise. Most JRT's I've met have high prey drive too. And will go for cats, squirrels, birds and mice as that is what they do. He obviously needs more exercise then what your giving him. And retraining with the cats. How did you train him to live with the cats? Was proper introduction done?

Take an obedience course. You need to train him to walk properly. It needs to be practiced even though its a nightmare walking. Try getting a Sensation Harness or Easy Walk Harness if he pulls. Get him fixed. Go to the SPCA they usually do it for way cheaper than a vet.

I would also recommend that you create boundaries and rules for him. Be strict with him but NOT PHYSICAL! This means do not force him to lay down. How have you shown Toothy that you and your son are the boss?
I recommend to my adoptive families to the NILF method or No Free Lunch Method. Toothy must work for everything! Food, pets, snuggles, toys etc. You need to be strict with this until he realizes that you are the boss. You might think your the boss and what your doing is showing him this but its obviously not working. He is probably only biting because he is trying to tell you he is the leader. It doesn't sound like a vicious attack.


Keep Toothy off the furniture for the time being. Doesn't need to be permanent but you need to do it now (esp. since he is biting your son!). Dogs that bite humans should not be allowed on furniture.

Good Luck!
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Old December 24th, 2008, 01:44 PM
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I would try obediance school. Also I am concerned with you forcing him to do stuff. This also might be WHY he is biting and growling. Dogs or any animal should not be forced to do anything. Being the alpah, does not mean being forceful, threatning to a animal. Ceasar Milan has great books on training.

Petsmart offers obediance classes.

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Old December 24th, 2008, 02:12 PM
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Just adding another thing to your post:

"Tonight, she growled at me when I tried to snuggle her. I thought she was going to bite me."

When she is growling or barking I would stop trying to snuggle her. Also do not pet her. Touch = praise to dogs (even if your forcing her to lay down or sit). And what you are telling her is that you want her to be growling mad. And dont' growl back at her. Your fueling her fire.

Patricia McConnell has some great books. Go to the library and see if you can borrow one or buy one on her website.
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Last edited by totallyhip; December 24th, 2008 at 02:29 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 02:28 PM
escapar escapar is offline
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Wow! You do have some good advice here. I am going to throw my into the ring.
I recommend going back to the crate. Crate train Toothy instead of locking him up in a baby gated room. Run him and give him lots of exercise before you put him in the crate. Keep the crate in your bedroom but crate him. He will be less destructive in the crate and won't be going to the bathroom all over the house. Kongs are great for this. If he has sep. anxiety in the crate trying getting a Dog Appeasing Phermone Plug in and plug it in beside the crate. How did you introduce the crate to him the first place. You will probably need to do the proper introduction again.


Right now we are in the baby gated bedroom. Toothy is sleeping under the desk. Do you mean that Toothy should be in the crate?

It's big enough for toys and a Training pad...it's about the size of an average walk in closet.

I do want to take Toothy out for exercise ...if I take her down to the river where she can run freely ....she takes off and then I have to find her. Which is a problem when it's -25C.

I also fear that she will run out onto the loose ice and fall in. I'm not sure if she has enough sense to be careful.

I also like the river valley because really she can only go so far ...up and down the embankment so I would always find her at some point. Do you have any idea how I would get her to return to me ????

The Crate, when she was first put in there: We got her in the evening and it was a two hour drive home.

So it was bedtime. In the morning, go outside, eat something ..play for a bit and go back in when I leave for work. She'd be free for perhaps 45 minutes to an hour. Several hours later when my son got up, the same ritual.

When my son got home from school he'd repeat the ritual. I come home for work and let her out for a longer period then back in for bed time. Then she discovered she could bark and all heck broke lose with my neighbours.


Everyone is right JRTs are HYPER!!! They need LOTS of exercise. Most JRT's I've met have high prey drive too. And will go for cats, squirrels, birds and mice as that is what they do. He obviously needs more exercise then what your giving him. And retraining with the cats. How did you train him to live with the cats? Was proper introduction done?

Toothy doesn't actually do anything to the cats. Even when she has the chance, she won't touch them. Except Paul ....Toothy and Paul play together. Real playing ...Paul often starts the playing.

What Toothy does is 'Tree' the cats ....and I'm sure she'd sit there til next week if I didn't stop it. I tell her 'No' and then the 'Downstairs' command. Downstairs is where my bedroom is. Most of the time I have to carry her away from the Treed Cat.


Take an obedience course. You need to train him to walk properly. It needs to be practiced even though its a nightmare walking. Try getting a Sensation Harness or Easy Walk Harness if he pulls. Get him fixed. Go to the SPCA they usually do it for way cheaper than a vet.

We will go for Obedience classes. Probably around the end of January. Same for spaying. Sadly the SPCA here doesn't do spaying. I've taken all my other dogs
to Obedience Training but they were different than Toothy.

Even before the classes I taught them tricks and some basic rules. Roll Over, Find My Keys ...Put Your Toys
Away ....but Toothy...I can't even get her to come when I call her. Not for toys, not for ham ...not for anything.

I would also recommend that you create boundaries and rules for him.

Can you give some examples?




Be strict with him but NOT PHYSICAL! This means do not force him to lay down. How have you shown Toothy that you and your son are the boss?


One of the main things we do is to eat before her. Mostly I feed her but also my son. I read this on the internet that rank is demonstrated by who eats
first.


I recommend to my adoptive families to the NILF method or No Free Lunch Method. Toothy must work for everything! Food, pets, snuggles, toys etc. You need to be strict with this until he realizes that you are the boss. You might think your the boss and what your doing is showing him this but its obviously not working. He is probably only biting because he is trying to tell you he is the leader. It doesn't sound like a vicious attack.

She does not seem to learn. Every day for the last year I've come home from work/where ever, tried to get the dog to stop being so excited, jumping around and going beserk ...to go outside. I completely ignore her ..no eye contact and only once do I say "Outside". No petting, no praise ...no nothing until she goes outside. Ultimately, I end up pushing her outside. Today is her birthday, probably marking the 366th time I've had to push her outside. Yesterday I put her favourite bone outside. Why after all this time doesn't she get it ??

Toys when she is in her crate should be okay???


Keep Toothy off the furniture for the time being. Doesn't need to be permanent but you need to do it now (esp. since he is biting your son!). Dogs that bite humans should not be allowed on furniture.

LOL, as long as it's not permanent ...she's on the floor until she's nice. Jeez I hope I don't end up sleeping on the floor with her !!!



Back to how snarly she is ....I don't know if she's asserting herself or being mean: But it's dang scary. I really felt like if I didn't make it known that I am the Alpha she was going to chew me up.

I've watched those shows on tv about the dog 'whisperers' or what ever they call themselves. Right now I'm so upset about this dog I can't think. And none of those dogs are as rangy as Toothy.

I appreciate your help, you've chosen your words carefully and I don't feel like I'm being accused of abusing my puppy. I feel like you are genuinely trying to help.

And that is what I want ...some help.

Last edited by escapar; December 24th, 2008 at 02:42 PM.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 02:33 PM
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you can buy a 40 foot leash and teach toothy recall.. let her run as far as the leash allows and as you are calling her back pull in the leash.. when she is in front of you reward her with praise and/or treats..

thats a start so she will not run away.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 02:37 PM
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I would very strongly suggest seeking the help of a professional behaviorist, escapar. Right now, Toothy is running the house. She's biting because she's 'top dog'. You need to get that under control before it becomes a habit with her...and it sounds to me that outside help is going to be your best bet. A behaviorist can assess both Toothy's behavior and your interaction with Toothy. Not only will they help you train Toothy, but they'll train you in what you need to do to regain and keep the upper paw, if you will

But the sooner you get some help, the better off all of you will be.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 02:41 PM
escapar escapar is offline
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[QUOTE=totallyhip;718823]Just adding another thing to your post:

Touch = praise to dogs (even if your forcing her to lay down or sit). And what you are telling her is that you want her to be growling mad. And dont' growl back at her. Your fueling her fire.




I didn't know that. That's an awesome thing to know.
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Old December 24th, 2008, 02:47 PM
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Right now we are in the baby gated bedroom. Toothy is sleeping under the desk. Do you mean that Toothy should be in the crate?

It's big enough for toys and a Training pad...it's about the size of an average walk in closet.


Many people, when they leave home, confine their new dog to the yard, a bathroom, kitchen, or a laundry room. This is counterproductive for many reasons. Fiist, the dog is not used to spending time in that place. It is filled with unfamiliar and uncomfortable smells. They do not associate you with that room, but rather the fact that you are leaving. This may lead to separation anxiety in the future. What type of floor is in there? Is it slippery making him uncomfortable? Also, the environment is much too large to create the “den” environment that dogs need to feel comfortable. Lastly, these places are seldom where you are when you’re home, therefore
the dog will not willingly go there and use that as a “safe place” when they are nervous.

I meant put him in the crate when you are not home. Or when you can't watch him properly. I am saying that the closet is too big for him.


I do want to take Toothy out for exercise ...if I take her down to the river where she can run freely ....she takes off and then I have to find her. Which is a problem when it's -25C.

I also fear that she will run out onto the loose ice and fall in. I'm not sure if she has enough sense to be careful.

I also like the river valley because really she can only go so far ...up and down the embankment so I would always find her at some point. Do you have any idea how I would get her to return to me ????


Take him for long walks. I would never let a dog off leash until I have 110% total recall of him.


We will go for Obedience classes. Probably around the end of January. Same for spaying. Sadly the SPCA here doesn't do spaying. I've taken all my other dogs
to Obedience Training but they were different than Toothy.

Even before the classes I taught them tricks and some basic rules. Roll Over, Find My Keys ...Put Your Toys
Away ....but Toothy...I can't even get her to come when I call her. Not for toys, not for ham ...not for anything.


I tell all my adoptive families to go for obedience class. Some people say but I've already done that with my other dogs. If you find a good trainer and a good class they will be able to address specific problems that are specific to that dog. Also its a great bonding experience for you and your dog. I have 3 dogs and all of them we have done obedience with. Even though I work with many dogs I still do it with my own. It never hurts to have more good education.

What I mean by creating boundaries is just as simple as not getting on the furniture. Making him work for everything he wants.

Keep him on a short leash in the house so that he can drag it around. This way if anything happens you can easily grab the leash and do the correction. Do not grab his collar as this is confrontational and could cause him to bite. Do not let him up on the furniture. Dogs that bite should not sit on couches or sleep on our beds. I'm not sure if you are doing this with him already or not, but he needs to have strict boundaries.

I had a very similar problem with my boy Han that we adopted in Sept. He was fine with us for about 3 weeks and then my husband went away on a business trip. Han figured that he was in charge of me since DH was gone. Whenever I asked him to do something he didn't want to do he would bite me. For example we were going out for a walk and he was laying down. I asked him to stand to put on his harness. I tried coaxing him to come and got a toy and everything to tempt him. Nothing! So me not even thinking went and grabbed the top of his collar and he bit me in the hand. Another time he was laying on my bed and I asked him to get off so I could get in. He refused. So I started to open up the blankets to attempt to get in anyhow and he bit me again. I realized that I wasn't creating enough rules and boundaries for him and he didn't see me as the pack leader. So I had begun to be very strict with him. I followed the No Free Lunch method to a T. I kept up with it for about 1 month and he really responded well to it. You might need longer....all dogs are different. Our relationship is alot different now and he has stopped biting me. He views me as the leader. Usually dogs in packs will nip or bite other pack members to show to them that they are more dominant.

If you want to do some research online some people also refer to it as Nothing in Life is Free. Its not about being physical with the dog...in fact its totally handsoff but just showing him who is in charge of things. For example; always make him sit before you feed him his food or give him a treat. If he comes to you and paws you for a petting don't pet him. Make him sit first and then pet. He needs to work for everything that he wants.

Toys in Crate:

Yes Kongs are fantastic in the crate. I stuff it full of things. Peanut butter, doggie treats, kibble, bits of chicken, rice yogurt, bannanas. I freeze it overnight and then give it to him in the crate. Keeps them occupied for hours. I do not give rawhide at all. They can choke easily and if you put it in the crate and leave him unattended your asking for trouble. Certain toys are okay. I don't put toys in that can be destroyed and parts can be swallowed. Kongs and tough rubber toys like that are fine.

I know that there are alot of different opinions here on Cesar Milan. I am not trying to open that can of worms nor am I trying to say he is good or bad.......but I do tell my families to not use the methods that they see on tv shows. Only because each dog is different and responds differently. Seeking the advice of a qualified professional dog trainer in person is a better method.
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Chewie - Male White Boxer - DOB Aug. 2007 (RESCUE)
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The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Mohandas Gandhi -

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Old December 24th, 2008, 03:07 PM
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totallyhip totallyhip is offline
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Sorry I just re-read your post. I know she is not in the closet

The baby gates are good to keep her in room with you. So you can keep an eye on her.

Has she always been potty trained? You might have to readdress that and start potty training again. When you put her outside do you go with her? Take a cup of coffee and go with her out to the yard and then reward reward and praise praise her when she pees or poos.
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Luke - Male Brindle Boxer - DOB Feb. 2003
Leia - Female Fawn Boxer - DOB July 2004 (RESCUE) went to the bridge Nov. 2011
Han Solo - Male Flashy Fawn Boxer - DOB Oct. 2004 (RESCUE)
Chewie - Male White Boxer - DOB Aug. 2007 (RESCUE)
Geordi - Male Fawn Boxer - DOB 2009

The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. - Mohandas Gandhi -

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Old December 25th, 2008, 05:43 PM
JennieV JennieV is offline
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I just wanted to say a few things...

I think that the dog you got may have multiple issues going on. It may be that the dog is unbalanced, be it because its the runt of the litter or the fact that she is not trained properly, I do not know. it is hard to say without knowing the full history (her parents? her environment that she was brought up in...was she abused as a puppy? not given enough attention and socialization skills??...you get my point)

What you probably know by now is that you have on your hands one of the most stubborn, intelligent, independent and yes, did I mention STUBBORN breeds. JRTs are known for their "almost human" intelligence, they are known for pushing their limits. they will ALWAYS push the limits, all their life. The only way to deal with it is proper training, exercise and determination/diligence on your part.

Toothy right now has free reign. She does NOT like when she is told otherwise or "forced" to be with you, hence the snarling. She is not vicious, she is just an alpha being alpha. This will go on until you take control and show her otherwise. You have been given lots of tips and great suggestions, such as 40' leash to teach her to come back...A dog can be taught ANYTHING, you just need time, patience and lotsa yummies/affection. Especially a dog such as JRT. They are SMART, and you have said so yourself..she just doesn't want to do these things you tell her, because well, she is the alpha, why should she??

Anyway, I can only say that you will both greatly benefit from training. Thats pretty much all I can say. Also, the 40' leash can help you with the situation at the river, as you will have control over her, without having to run after her or look for her, while giving her the space she needs to run and jump and vent...

Also, when she snarls or snaps at you or anyone, she has to be stopped immediately. You have to make it clear that such behaviour is not wanted and NOT accepted. Like immediately stop snuggles, immediately say NO in a very firm voice, not allowing for any "wiggle room" or any doubt. She needs to be trained, but more than tricks..Tricks are fun, when your dog is 100% reliable and listens to you. Then you can teach it tricks.
Good luck!

Last edited by JennieV; December 25th, 2008 at 05:59 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by escapar View Post


In the summer, we go down to the river to let her run. In the winter, because I have a bad hip we don't do much of anything. I don't think this has anything to do with anything because she's always been rotten ...since day one.
The amount of exercise she is getting definately affects her behavior. Having an energetic dog ( a border collie ) i know exactly what you are going through. although you have a bad hip, you need to find a way to get her at the very least an hour of good, heart pumping exercise everyday. this will tire her out and make her more calm around the house. You could try a long leash at a field, holding on to one end and she can run around, but still under control, again trust me, i know what your going through with having to chase after your dog, playing ball in the house is also a goo way to get a little exercise in her. ( i just throw it down the hall, he brings it back) another way is if you have a tredmill, you could put her on it for 20 to 30 mins, a a quick walk to a light jog, but she must be under constant supervison, and you really need to introduce her to it slowly and carefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by escapar;718831[I
Right now we are in the baby gated bedroom. Toothy is sleeping under the desk. Do you mean that Toothy should be in the crate?
Nope, then she wouldnt need to be in a crate, but of course have the door open as an option ( when she is in her crate never ever disturb her there, its her safe spot, her den, if you will. if you need to get her out (ie has somehting she shouldnt, or has to go out for a pee before you leave, call her out, if that doesnt work, tip up the back end of the crate just a little.) A crate is really a great tool, if you use it properly, great for potty training, great for confinement.


It's big enough for toys and a Training pad...it's about the size of an average walk in closet.



Thats a little to big, ( prehaps thats a small room ?) you only want room enough for her to lie down, turn around comfortably, but since you do have to work such long hours, prehaps a crate with a pee pad is needed. or if its possible, could you get someone to come in mid day and take her out for a pee and a play session or a run down the street?


I do want to take Toothy out for exercise ...if I take her down to the river where she can run freely ....she takes off and then I have to find her. Which is a problem when it's -25C.

It really is great that you want to exercise her! thats atleast a start, a motivation to want to make her better. i read in one of your post that she pulls until she vomits, have you tried a gentle leader head halter? they are really great for pullers! they help control the head and neck, so you have to be careful with them, no sudden jerks on the halter.

I also fear that she will run out onto the loose ice and fall in. I'm not sure if she has enough sense to be careful.

This is a possibility, so if your in doubt, keep the leash on.

I also like the river valley because really she can only go so far ...up and down the embankment so I would always find her at some point. Do you have any idea how I would get her to return to me ????


Lots of training. Obedience classes would be a great start, even if you have done them before at some point in your life, with another dog, i strongly reccomend doing them again with her. they bond you, a good trainer will be able to help you with any specific problems you are having. also lots of practice in different settings on a long leash, with lots of different distractions. always always always reward for coming to you, especially in the beginning, ie. if you are at a field or park or whever it may be and she is on a long leash, and you a re standing still ( although i reccomend you move or throw a ball for her ) and she comes back to you, to "check in" you reallly want to praise this, she is coming to you by her own choice, thats a great thing!



So it was bedtime. In the morning, go outside, eat something ..play for a bit and go back in when I leave for work. She'd be free for perhaps 45 minutes to an hour. Several hours later when my son got up, the same ritual.

Thats also a great thing to do, so she is getting some exercise in and doesnt have to sit in her crate all day with ever builind energy and excitment.


What Toothy does is 'Tree' the cats ....and I'm sure she'd sit there til next week if I didn't stop it. I tell her 'No' and then the 'Downstairs' command. Downstairs is where my bedroom is. Most of the time I have to carry her away from the Treed Cat.



You may be saying 'No' and then 'Downstairs' but does she really understand them? you can figure this out by having no distractions around and trying it out, take her to where the cat would normally be 'treed' and say 'Downstairs' if she goes praise her, if not you know she doesnt understand. If she obeys this without a distraction, she is simply ignoring you when your telling her and there is a treed cat around. start with no distractions, and praise when she listens, and then build up distraction ( ie. a quiet tv or cd player, then louder and more distracting sounds, then, have the cat sitting calmly there and practice. ) If she doesnt listen no matter the distraction level, enforce it. Say the 'Downstairs' command once and make sure she does it. if necessary have the leash clipped on the her so if she ignores you, grabs the leash ( without looking at her or talking to her ) take her to where she is supposed to go.





I would also recommend that you create boundaries and rules for him.

Can you give some examples?


Creating boundaries is you controlling where the dog can and cant go. You can mark the boundaries on the floor ( with black tape ) if you need to, so you can see them and keep them consistant. say you want to keep the dog out of a certain room, you are creating a boundary, you enforce it by not letting the dog in there, stopping her before she goes in there.



One of the main things we do is to eat before her. Mostly I feed her but also my son. I read this on the internet that rank is demonstrated by who eats
first.


This is a ggood start, also as others have mentioned, try NILF. it really helps teach them pack order. your starting and stopping everything, you control everything she wants, which means your in control.


She does not seem to learn. Every day for the last year I've come home from work/where ever, tried to get the dog to stop being so excited, jumping around and going beserk ...to go outside. I completely ignore her ..no eye contact and only once do I say "Outside". No petting, no praise ...no nothing until she goes outside. Ultimately, I end up pushing her outside. Today is her birthday, probably marking the 366th time I've had to push her outside. Yesterday I put her favourite bone outside. Why after all this time doesn't she get it ??


Ah this is something we are working on too, but only when other people come to the house, not the family. Try having one person inside with Toothy, on a leash and have another person walk in. The person inside, controls toothy with the leash, the other person will ignore her. if she jumps on on the person who came in. two things need to happen. the person holding the leash, immediately needs to correct it and the person who jsut cam in needs to fold their arms and turn their back on her and completely ignore her for untill she is completely calm, at which time they tell her to sit and they get down on their knee ( so she doesnt get excited again and jump up ) and calmy and quietly pat her. if she starts to get excited again, another leash correction is needed and she needs to be ingnored again.


Toys when she is in her crate should be okay???

Toys in the crate are fine if they are tough enough and safe enough. a kong is a great great toy, for the crate, if sized properly. fill it with peanut butter or treats and let her at it in the crate.


Keep Toothy off the furniture for the time being. Doesn't need to be permanent but you need to do it now (esp. since he is biting your son!). Dogs that bite humans should not be allowed on furniture.

LOL, as long as it's not permanent ...she's on the floor until she's nice. Jeez I hope I don't end up sleeping on the floor with her !!!

This would be a great idea, especially for the time being. As you know dogs are pack animals and the higher in the pack you are, the better sleeping spot you get, which in a house would be the coach or bed or the big lazy boy chair ( i have caught my guy in that once or twice ) right now the easiet way to keep her off of the furniture it to keep her attached to you ( umbilical ) if you catch her on coach, you dont need to yell, remove her ( if you are worried about being bitten keep a leash on her , so you can get her off with out going near her mouth.) sleeping in your bed is a definate no no right now, especially since she has bitten someone. what if you by accident roll a little to close or your arm bumps her or anything like that, she could bite again.


I've watched those shows on tv about the dog 'whisperers' or what ever they call themselves. Right now I'm so upset about this dog I can't think. And none of those dogs are as rangy as Toothy.

i know what you mean, the dogs on tv never seem to have the exact same problem as your dog


Quote:
Originally Posted by breeze View Post
you can buy a 40 foot leash and teach toothy recall.. let her run as far as the leash allows and as you are calling her back pull in the leash.. when she is in front of you reward her with praise and/or treats..

thats a start so she will not run away.

I really feel these are one of the greatest tools to have!!



sorry for the super long response, but i am hoping that you will be able to use some of this info.
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Old December 25th, 2008, 09:46 PM
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You keep saying that the pup does not listen to you; does not come when called, etc. Have you had her hearing tested? Is it possible she is deaf or has some degree of hearing loss? That may be part of the issue. She could be responding to your hand gestures. Not your voice. Just a thought.
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 12:05 PM
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On our way down to the river before I have to work.

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Old January 2nd, 2009, 12:11 PM
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thats great! did you check out long leashs yet? if not, you can get them at the dollar store, i get mine from there, but i always take out the sewing machine and go over the stitching a bit just to make sure its good and sturdy. have fun at the river!
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 12:18 PM
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So far here is the plan, implementing the stuff I've learned from you all:

1) No more pee pads.

6am: outside for 15 or 20 minutes in the back yard.

7am: in the crate. We have one now. Not just the huge caged fence thingy. In there with some special bones and a blanket that I have been sleeping with so it smells like me.


5:30pm: outside for 15 or 20 minutes in the back yard.

6pm: meal time.

7pm: down to the river for a an hour run.

10pm: outside for 15 or 20 minutes in the back yard.
in the crate for night night time.

Should Toothy have some water in the crate with her???
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 12:27 PM
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that sounds like a great plan! maybe while you are outside you can spend the last 5 minutes doing basic training? that way she is a bit tired from playing so she can focus on you, but she wont be tired enough to not pay attention. and that way you are getting training in.

as to the water in the crate, i would say no, you should try and cut her off around 9 ish, so if there is anything left she needs to pee out then she can do it while you have her out at 10. a small little drink would be okay after the 10 pm play, but not too much. also at night, try not to give her a kong with peanut butter in it or anythign to salty which would make her need a drink, or else you will need to let her get a drink wait a while and take her for another pee.

sounds like your doing a great job!
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  #28  
Old January 2nd, 2009, 02:37 PM
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Ford Girl Ford Girl is offline
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Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
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One thing I learnt with a high energy breed is that they need the exercise BEFORE your day starts, by the time you get home from work - they have been penned and pent up energy for hours - and this is when you are at your lowest energy level. They wait all day for you to get home. Try leash walking or a good run before you pen the dog all day.

They need leash walking as much as they need off leash play, it teaches them structure, and that you are the leader and a dog who's walking with manners is concentrating on the task at hand.

The back yard isnt considered exercise what so ever, to them its just an extention of their house/pen/crate. Dogs dont burn energy in the year excpet if they dig, bark or charge the fence. You'd be better off letting the dog out for a pee and taking it for a 15 min walk before breakfast.

Once you get some of the behavior issues dealth with you can look in to training your dog to walk on a tread mill, take it to dog parks, dog play dates, off leash areas, day cares, etc...seriously, burn the energy and they have less issues.

Research N.I.L.F, contact a trainer and make time to work on this, I had a "behavorly challanged dog" right from puppyhood, and it took us almost 2 years to whip her in shape, this isnt going to happen over night. The agression comes from being off balance - which means not enough exercise, structure, rules and a weak pack leader. Dogs need a leader and if you dont provide that they are more then happy to take the lead - which is what happened in your home.

Cheers.
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  #29  
Old January 2nd, 2009, 02:49 PM
escapar escapar is offline
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LOL, yeah...I thought that too...that I should take her before I go to work. I'll do that so that way she's tuckered out to spend the day in her crate.

The crate...I see now that she's chewed the door and it's not closeable...so the crate is in the cage/fence thing.

We are back from her run. I won't go into many details but it was AWFUL. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

She had a small drink and is now in the crate. I'm going to work where I can relax.
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Old January 2nd, 2009, 03:00 PM
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Ford Girl Ford Girl is offline
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Tomorrow will only be better if you work at it, they need to know whats expected of them, most dogs are willing to give what is asked of them. Offleash play teaches them nothing, it does burn more energy but doesn't teach them anything.

Whats awful about it? No recall? Each time you bring the dog off leash and it doesn't listen - it only solidifies the behavior. I'd say no more off leash until you build the trust and respect you are looking for.

Research:

Embilicle training and N.I.L.F

And get enroled in an obedience class. One for reacitve dogs, so its a smaller class and the trainers can help you with your specific issues. Give commends at every chance, sit, stay, down, paw, roll over, the more you command your dog the more you become the leader.

Chewing the crate is bordom, these dogs needs hours of stimulation per day, there is nothing that will fix or replace this aspect of your dogs needs except exercise, training and discipline.
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