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Old January 21st, 2010, 09:31 AM
KaiahRott KaiahRott is offline
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Level 4-6 Heart Murmur - Answered by Dr. Lee

I bought a rottwiler puppy from a reputable breeder that showed me the health records of the parents which are show dogs etc. I have the health guarentee for her and was told her 6 week check up went well and she's a healthy little girl. However, I got her at 8 weeks old and took her to my vet to find out that she has a heart murmur. I knew this was common and could go away so I was a little concerned but didn't think too much of it.

She just had her 12 week checkup and my vet said the murmur is between a level 4-6. I notified my breeder and she said this would be her first health issue and she has been breeding since 2004. I'm taking her to a cardiologist Monday morning to find out more but since I am trying to educate myself as much as possible before then, I'm am looking for any suggestions or questions I should be looking into. The breeder offered to take her back if it is severe but I'm not really wanting to just give up on her.

I'm googling it as much as possible, but anyone with experience or more insight is appreciated since I have just a few days before the appointment.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 01:22 PM
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Dr Lee Dr Lee is offline
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I am sorry for all the problems that you and your puppy are going through. It sounds like you care about her very much.

I think that you have an excellent plan by taking her to the cardiologist for an echo. At this point I would hold off from further internet searching and wait for the results. Let me explain the what a grade 4/6 heart murmur means and I can explain why further internet searching may be frustrating.

What we vets listen for when listening to the heart:
We listen for murmurs and arrhythmias. Arrhythmias has to do with the rhythm of the beats. Here I will describe murmurs.

When you listen to a heart and you hear the "Lub Dub" sound, what you are listening to is the closing of the heart valves (little heart doors if you will). The "Lub" is from the systolic contraction and the "Dub" is from the diastolic filling. (systole is the contraction phase and diastole is the filling phase. If it were a gun - firing is systole and reloading is diastole). Most all murmurs occur in systole. So when we hear a murmur, what we here is a "Whoosh Dub, Whoosh Dub" instead of "Lub Dub, Lub Dub". We then think to ourselves, how loud and audible is that "Whoosh"? We scale that on a level of 1 - 6. 6 being the worst and defined as something so prominent, that you can actually get a palpable thrill when you touch the side of the chest. 1 is the most mild and is takes a very quiet room and lots of listening to hear.

Once we hear the murmur, we also then try to find what position we hear that murmur most prominently or what is called the PMI (point of Maximum Intensity). Was it on the left side or the right side. Was it at the Apical (at the apex or tip), basilar (base), pulmonic or tricuspid area etc...

Sometimes we can also describe quality. There are some old terms like "crescendo-decrescendo", "plateau", etc... The terms "musical" "to and fro" can also be heard. Often this is very difficult to accurately appreciate in dogs.

So what does it all mean?
For example we might have a Grade 2/6 left systolic apical murmur. What this means is that the "Whooshing" sound is mild to moderate in intensity and that we can hear it best at the tip of the heart on the left side when the heart contracts. This does not mean that we have a diagnosis other than heart disease. It does mean that in this example, mitral regurgitation is more likely than triscupid regurgitation or patent ductus arteriosus. Why? because we know that mitral regurgitation is more likely to create a murmur that sounds like our example. It can help us narrow the possibilites.


So back to your puppy.

A grade 4/6 murmur means that the murmur is fairly prominent. The fact that it is louder at 12 weeks versus 8 weeks means that it is not likely to be an "innocent" murmur and should be worked up. However for you to do internet searching we also need to know more about the murmur - was it systolic or diastolic? what was the location?

Regardless of this though, the echo will likely give you all the answers that are needed. It will provide far more than auscultation (listening) can do.

Is an echo needed?
Absolutely. Especially with a rottweiler. We need to rule out Sub Aortic Stenosis (SAS) which may have a poor prognosis depending on the severity. There are many possibilities, so we need to know.

Once a diagnosis is made, then a prognosis can be given. Some diagnoses may give her an absolutely normal life. Some may require medication down the road. And unfortunately some may have a poor prognosis. I wish I could give you more information.

Stay strong and know that you have a good plan. Many, many dogs are born with heart murmurs and have normal wonderful lives. Your puppy appears to be in very good hands with you. Please let us know what the cardiologist says.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 03:01 PM
KaiahRott KaiahRott is offline
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Thanks for the detailed response. It helped me understand much better. I'm going to will wait till Monday before driving myself crazy reading about every possible scenario & just hope for the best.

I will be sure to post the results.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 03:12 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Thank you Dr Lee for this very interesting information. I have been watching to see what information was going to be provided.

I am dealing with similiar however a grade 3.

To the OP - I wish you the very best. You are good people.
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Old January 21st, 2010, 03:54 PM
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hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
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Best wishes for you and your puppy, KaiahRott! for a good outcome to the test on Monday.

Please keep us posted!
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Old January 25th, 2010, 05:56 PM
KaiahRott KaiahRott is offline
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We just got back from the cardiologist. Kaiah has Mitral Valve Dysplasia with mild regurgitation. It is grade 3-4 murmur. I have to take her back again in 6 months to monitor it and ensure it doesn't progress.

Until then I have a lot of homework to do since this is the first I've heard of it.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 06:40 PM
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Myka Myka is offline
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Thanks for the detailed response Dr Lee! We had an older dog with a heart murmur (that's all we knew) when I was a kid, and I always wondered what it was all about. Cheers!

Kaiah, I'm not sure if your results are good or not, but Dr Lee will have a good news reply to this.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 08:21 PM
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hazelrunpack hazelrunpack is offline
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Did the vet give any kind of a prognosis, KaiahRott? Glad you at least got a diagnosis and sending that the murmur doesn't progress!
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Old August 15th, 2013, 12:47 PM
mdbucfan mdbucfan is offline
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info

My 12 week old Rottie was just diagnosed with the exact same thing. My story and your details from breeder to time of discovery are exactly the same? We were told he will not live past a year. What happened with your Rottie? I'm sorry if im digging at old wounds but im hoping for hope sake.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 07:43 PM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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There is some info about the drug and suppelement therapy here:
http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/...ons#Post170733
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