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Old September 8th, 2008, 08:39 AM
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I tried to explain but got laughed at :(

I've been away for a few weeks. We just moved into our new house and we finally just had our internet and cable hooked up on friday. I was going through some serious withdrawal.

Anyhoo, I have a favour to ask.

Last weekend we were visiting with hubby's family, his sis and BIL were visiting (we only see them a few times per year). They've got a dog that gets along great with Skylar, yay!

We had taken the dogs out for a nice long walk and were sitting around with a few drinks chatting. The dogs were completely pooped and were sprawled out on the floor. Someone made the comment that they looked dead, I jokingly said if they're not careful they'll get sent to the rendering plant for dog food (bad joke, I know, but I said it).

Well this sparked a conversation about pet food (up until this point I had never talked to them about dog food or asked what they feed). They didn't believe me that not long ago euthanized animals were sent to rendering plants and then processed for use in pet foods in the lower end brands. They laughed at me as I was trying to explain. Then we moved on to pet food in general and I tried to tell them that there is a difference in quality (stuff you buy in grocery stores vs. great brands at pet supply stores). I tried to explain ingredients etc..., but again was laughed at and basically told that I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet and that's what governing bodies are for (ya right) and they wouldn't allow something unnutritional to be sold (again, ya right).

So I didn't clearly get my point across and was really flustered due to the laughing. I felt very foolish that I couldn't properly get out what I wanted to say. His dad actually impled that I'm a crazy activist by telling me I should go join the protesters in Quebec City (I'm assuming he was referring to the APEC protests a few years ago)

I'd like to add that hubby's BIL is an MD and although he knows plenty about humans, he knows nothing about animals, but that didn't stop him from dismissing what I was saying. I also tried to explaining that vets get minimal nutritional training and that I probably know more than a vet about food. Again, I was met with dismissive tones and laughter.

It turns out they feed their dog Hill's, so I tried to explain why it's not the best, and was questioned about what I feed Skylar and the cats (Orijen!) and they asked why it's better. I don't think they believed me.

By the end of it I was pretty upset and I felt like an idiot.

Hubby's sister seemed somewhat interested and asked me to send her some websites to look at (perhaps she's just humouring me)

So my favour to ask is this: Could you guys help me find some really good nutrition/info sites that aren't hokey or amateurish to send to her? Preferably ones with lots of scientific mumbo jumbo since they're both in science based industries.

I know www.dogfoodproject.com, but beyond that I haven't been able to find any good ones.

Thanks gals.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 08:56 AM
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I know how you feel, stacer . All you can do is end with: check the pet food labels and ask yourself if a carnivore should be eating grains and corn, not meat (ask if they ever saw a cat/dog chomping on a corn cob in the fields?). Also mention meat by products are just like eating hot dogs and ask if they feed their children hot dogs every night with a vitamin pill added?

There is a good one:http://www.catinfo.org/

http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm

Sorry I don't have any dog ones.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 08:57 AM
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www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=53644

Stacer, this is the thread Rainbow started about the dogfood companies being sued and the 4d's might want to send this along...
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Old September 8th, 2008, 08:59 AM
Jim Hall Jim Hall is offline
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i get laughed at regularly when i bring up nutrition
hey at least you know what your talking about and if your suppusedly smart friends cant read a label well too bad and worse for thier pets
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Old September 8th, 2008, 09:07 AM
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I get laughed at all the time. I don't let it get to me any more. I just feel really really sad for their pets. :sad: They are the ones suffering. People figure that the vets know what they are talking about and what do I know?
We need to find a SCM to carry around in our back pocket all the time!!

I have to be careful bringing up food at work. Won't have the job long if I keep it up.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 09:33 AM
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I know how that feels stacer, its no fun.
I am trying to educate my SIL, with her cat, that is allergic to stuff... She just blindly follows whatever the vet tells her. I printed stuff of this website to show her..something like 40 pages in total...Guess what: no luck!
She says, well, the vet must know what they are talking about. Yea, ok..Keep telling yourself that!
Anyway, when we got Sparky, I looked into this more closely, because I wanted to start him off with good food. So when we went for our first check up last week, I printed stuff about the food, and showed it to the vet. She was impressed!! She was a little confused about it, like never seen/heard about it, but it just goes to show you that they don't really look into nutrition much.
So be patient, and keep talking to your SIL, keep making the analogy with hotdogs and junk food and kids, that should speak to her heart. Usually, women tend to see their pets as their children...Once she is hooked - its a matter of time till they switch to a better food!
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Old September 8th, 2008, 09:43 AM
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One thing I always bring up (and I know it's gross) is to ask the person what happens when they eat corn and if that doesn't indicate to them that your body doesn't digest it. I've also made the argument that with lots of food, you're basically feeding corn cobs, chicken feet and sweepings off the floor. I think the one argument that gets attention is that better food equals less poop. I don't always go for the 'your dog will be healthier' because then you've got the people who feed Ol'Roy and happen to have a fairly healthy dog that don't see the need for a better food.

I send people links to this site alot -
http://www.doberdogs.com/menu.html

I like it because it doesn't give you recommendations about food, it simply tells you what all the ingredients are/mean and then gives you the ingredient list of almost any food you can think of.

And as far as governing organizations not allowing unnutritous food, where were these people during the pet recall last year??? Not to mention that the AAFCO is made up of dog food manufacturers - yep, that's certainly the group to trust to tell you what your dog should eat.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 09:46 AM
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My small community has a get together almost every Friday night and there is one regular who has 2 cats. One of their cats is extremely overweight, 18 lbs and should be about 9. Their cat cat is on vet kibble and is not loosing any weight, and hasn't for years they just don't understand it. I tried to tell them that their cat may be better off with a high quality canned, but no way, this is what their vet gives them, that is what they are going to buy for her. I offered to email her some websites for her to view or to do some research on her own, but she said she doesn't have time (she works part time and has no kids at home). I wanted to say to her Dr Phil's saying: "How's that working for you?"

I wish I had some pictures of Puddles when she was on Pres Choice food and now on Wellness, Instinct, and Fromms 4 starr. The only thing that changed for her was her food, no meds, nothing. She was getting so sickly looking that I was sure she only had a year left to live, now she looks wonderful.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 10:53 AM
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Stacer.
Do you by chance have or have access to the book - Food Pets Die For by Ann Martin? You can pick it up at Chapters or have them order a copy in for you. It is a great read. I have a copy that I have shared with the people I work with. Many of them have taken steps to improve the food that they are feeding their cats and dogs after reading it. It would certainly open their eyes if they are willing to sit and read for a while.

Here is a link to the rebuttal by Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins to the Pet Food Industry Hearings:
http://www.all-about-cats.com/rebuttal.htm

Here is an article by Dr. Shawn Messonier on diet and supplements:
http://www.petcarenaturally.com/arti...upplements.php

Hope this helps.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Stacer View Post
but again was laughed at and basically told that I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet and that's what governing bodies are for (ya right) and they wouldn't allow something unnutritional to be sold (again, ya right).
Hello? Listeria outbreak anyone? How about some tasty E. coli in your Walkerton drinking water? Where were these "governing bodies" then? And that's for humans, how much care do they really think these "governing bodies" put into "governing" the pet food industry? They may think you're a crazy activist, but they're delusional sheep if they're putting that much trust into a billion dollar industry that's primary concern is making money, not doing what's best for people's pets.

Gotta go back to work, but I'll see what links I can come up with some time today that haven't already been posed.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 11:34 AM
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Thanks for all the responses. Even the cat links are helpful, the problems with pet food are the same across the board.

I'm in the midst of compiling all the websites to submit to her along with an email that will be way more articulate that I was last weekend.

It's so frustrating when I know what I know about pet foods and others shrug it off like what I'm trying to tell them is akin to bigfoot or the lochness monster.

Pipercats, I know of that book and I have read excerpts from it. I actually have a website with bits and pieces from the book to send to SIL.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
Hello? Listeria outbreak anyone? How about some tasty E. coli in your Walkerton drinking water? Where were these "governing bodies" then? And that's for humans, how much care do they really think these "governing bodies" put into "governing" the pet food industry? They may think you're a crazy activist, but they're delusional sheep if they're putting that much trust into a billion dollar industry that's primary concern is making money, not doing what's best for people's pets.

Gotta go back to work, but I'll see what links I can come up with some time today that haven't already been posed.
Can't forget the pet food recalls last year for an ingredient widely used by the pet food industry.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 12:31 PM
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Hi Stacer . I'm glad Skylar has a doggie cousin she gets along with well .

Our extended family used to laugh at me a lot too when the topic of nutrition came up. I remember when I first talked about it with one of my SIL's and she told me she'd take her vet's word over mine any time . That was about 1 1/2 years ago, about the time I joined this forum and started to learn more about animal nutrition. My SIL's been spending more time at our home the last several months and has been here during feeding times. I guess her curiosity finally piqued when she asked why do I really feed Orijen to our foster pups (I feed our adults raw). I just picked up a bag and explained the ingredients to her. We then went online to find the ingredients of Royal Canin and compared the two brands. She freaked when we went to dogfoodproject.com and read about the ingredients to stay away from, especially when she realized she was paying even more for a lesser quality food.

Today, at her request, I picked up Pheonix's first bag of Orijen .

Sometimes ppl just don't want to hear that they haven't done the appropriate research, if any, and may be inadvertently/unintentionally causing their dogs harm by feeding them lesser quality foods. Rather than giving it any further thought, it may be easier to just laugh at the person giving them advice/info.

So what I do now is not bring up the topic. I let others bring it up when they see the bag of food on the counter. Usually, friends with pets don't recognize the brand and start to ask questions about it. Or, when friends compliment our dogs' teeth and coats, I reply it's because of the great quality food I feed them. That leads to more questions where I then have the opportunity to teach and refer them to appropriate websites and books for more info. I also bring treats, usually in the form of kibble, when I go visit their homes. Even the pickiest of eaters go nuts when they try the kibble we have. That, too, leads to questions, and more opportunities to educate without coming across as "a crazy activist."
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Old September 8th, 2008, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Stacer View Post
I tried to explain ingredients etc..., but again was laughed at and basically told that I shouldn't believe everything I read on the internet and that's what governing bodies are for (ya right) and they wouldn't allow something unnutritional to be sold (again, ya right).
In Canada, the "governing bodies" lump all animal food into the same category. So, the same body that allows ground up chicken to be fed to cows also governs pet food and labelling of that food.

I also read the book "Food Pets Die For" by Ann Martin and it contains Canadian information that scared the crap out of me. Dog food testing positive for euthanasia agents, the definition of "byproduct" and "meal"... shudder. I used to believe that there had to be a reliable and trustworthy governing authority for pet food but, that's simply not the case. Stupid.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 05:12 PM
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I totally sympathize Stacer. My FIL won't listen to me at all about food, and my BIL got a new pup a couple months ago. When they asked me for some training websites I snuck dogfoodproject in there....I don't know if they read it, and I haven't pushed the subject so I don't know what they ended up feeding. I'm insanely curious, but I hate people laughing at me for being crazy about dog food and it just gets too hard to argue about it sometimes.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Love4himies View Post
Can't forget the pet food recalls last year for an ingredient widely used by the pet food industry.
Oh absolutely, and that's just the most publicized example. There are pet food recalls all the time, not necessarily on that scale, but just as deadly to the poor animals obliged to eat these foods. Occurences of alfatoxin poisoning and toxic levels of vitamin D are not as isolated as one would like to think. Then on top of these overt cases of poisoning, there are the millions of cats and dogs that become ill or die from eating completely innappropriate food. Blocked urinary tract? Diabetes? Both of these conditions in cats are almost always a direct result of eating dry food. Pet food manufacturers don't care. In fact, it gives them an opportunity to market a corresponding (and more expensive) prescription food to supposedly deal with these ailments. Do you hear that sound? It's the cash registers at Hill's and Royal Canin and Purina raking in the dough.

Boy, do I have some links.
http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.ph...foodregulation
http://leda.law.harvard.edu/leda/dat...Patrick06.html
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14708361
http://www.hans.org/magazine/322/Pet...Before-Recalls
http://tedeboy.tripod.com/drmichaelwfox/id81.html
http://www.howl911.com/ehodgkins.htm#supplemental
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16397192
http://www.mousabilities.com/nutrition/mcgowan.html
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Old September 8th, 2008, 05:54 PM
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Hey Stacer..like everyone else..I too get laughed at or dismissed when I get on my soapbox on nutrition. It is especially hard to convince people who've had pets live long lives on the crap food. It's hard for me to argue when I have a dog with kidney disease, although I always fed high quality food. :sad:

Granted the damage was done by the time I adopted him barely three years ago!

I often get rolled eyes and I get the 'I'll feed what's on sale, what's the big deal???' or 'this is what my vet recommends'.

When I fostered, my fosters got the good stuff..so that helped in ensuring the new family continued giving the same food. I encouraged it. Even gave the leftover bag. If finances is the only reason..you can argue that while the food costs more per bag..they poop less, you feed them less, and you'll have less visits to the vet, since they'll be less 'issues' with allergies, ear/eye infections, weight gain, etc. Shiny fur, bright eyes, high energy, etc. It is scary how many pet owners say they love their animals, and they are part of the family, blah blah...yet they feed them crap food. Or they'll spend money on a fancy dog bed, or doggie hotels and daycare, fancy collars...but give them food with sawdust in it!!

Another good site is www.dogaware.com

A good thing to ask of them that may help not make everything seem so overwhelming is just tell them to read the ingredients. I always tell them to at least focus on the first 5. You should be able to pronounce the ingredient, it should be fairly recognizable, and shouldn't be corn. IF they see the word by-product..or anything else they don't recognize..go look up the word and see what it really means.

LOL!! but yea, if we don't digest corn..they can't either!!

Unfortunately, I have seen that it isn't until a dog has health issues, that they will consider switching food..and that's a maybe. I have heard people say 'i have a crazy dog, it chews its paws'..actually thinking it was a mental issue...not even realizing it could've been something as simple as a diet or environment change.

it is quite a shame!

I hope you are able to get through to them eventually...if not, if god forbid their furball gets sick or something..i hope their ears will be open then. :sad:

I've actually had a vet tell me 'Excuse me, I'm the one that went to veterinarian school here!' It doesn't matter. It isn't just what's 'on the internet'..i have SEEN firsthand what a good diet can do..that's enough for me.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 07:02 PM
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Kick ass links SCM! I'll be sending those along, especially the one by the Harvard law student, so much good, sourced info there.

I think I'll also recommend the book by Ann Martin.

lm9012,
My SIL and her husband live an hour south of Chicago (I noticed that you are from Chicago), do you know of any good pet supply stores that I could recommend to them? I was hoping to lead them towards Innova EVO, Wellness Core, Orijen (if it's available in the area-Canadian company). I tried doing a search of stores but didn't turn up anything satisfactory.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 07:12 PM
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Someone once challenged me when i said that i feed grain free food, they asked 'well the food has potatoe in it and potatoes have a high GI so isnt that bad too?'

so my question is, why do we look for grain free but accept potatoe in foods? (cat and dog food)
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Old September 8th, 2008, 08:05 PM
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My favorite site is, www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/
Since reading it I have Buddy on Wellness Core.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Masha View Post
Someone once challenged me when i said that i feed grain free food, they asked 'well the food has potatoe in it and potatoes have a high GI so isnt that bad too?'

so my question is, why do we look for grain free but accept potatoe in foods? (cat and dog food)
Can't speak for dogs, but in the case of felines, yes, potato is bad too. This trend of swapping one starch for another just so that manufactures can stamp "Grain-free!" all over their product is rather devious, and typical.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 11:14 PM
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....By the end of it I was pretty upset and I felt like an idiot....
I get that all the time, too.

Many people don't want to know because then they'd have to admit that they're feeding bad food. Being ignorant is easier than being informed, for some.

As others mentioned, that book by Ann Martin is very explanatory. But a lot of people who are that doubting of the facts, often don't take the time or initiative to learn either. So hopefully your relatives will read what you provide them.
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Old September 8th, 2008, 11:36 PM
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Here's another one with more links at the lefthand side

http://www.naturalnews.com/Report_pe...edients_8.html
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Old September 9th, 2008, 06:29 AM
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In Canada, the "governing bodies" lump all animal food into the same category. So, the same body that allows ground up chicken to be fed to cows also governs pet food and labelling of that food.
Canada is considered "controlled risk" for mad cow disease according the the World Organization for Animal Health because we haven't taken enough action to prevent it.
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Old September 9th, 2008, 06:30 AM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
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Some people also don't have respect for people's knowledge unless they have a degree behind their names.
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  #26  
Old September 9th, 2008, 06:33 AM
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Love4himies Love4himies is offline
Rescue is my fav. breed
 
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Location: Boating in the 1000 Islands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
Can't speak for dogs, but in the case of felines, yes, potato is bad too. This trend of swapping one starch for another just so that manufactures can stamp "Grain-free!" all over their product is rather devious, and typical.

I agree, my co worker's cat can't eat anything with potato in it. I feed Puddles Wellness, which as potato because it has low phosporus, but am thinking to switching her to the Instinct flavours that have low phosporus. She doesn't accept changes in her food easily.
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Cat maid to:

Jasper, male Ragdoll ?? (approx 10 yrs)
Rose semi feral, a cpietra rescue, female tabby (approx 7 yrs)

Sweet Pea RIP (2004?-2014)
Puddles RIP (1996-2014)
Snowball RIP (1991-2005)

In a cat's eye, all things belong to cats.-English Proverb

“While we are free to choose our actions, we are not free to choose the consequences of our actions.” Stephen R. Covey
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  #27  
Old September 9th, 2008, 10:15 AM
kandy kandy is offline
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I also don't like the potato in grain free foods but I have a dog (well my son's dog, but I provide their food) that has an intolerance for barley - and soooo many foods have barley in them. He did really well on TO, but I didn't like their idea of customer service or trust, so I switched them. It wasn't easy to find a food with no barley that I liked (I tried Canidae too), so I went with grain free.
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  #28  
Old September 9th, 2008, 10:15 AM
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Dog Dancer Dog Dancer is offline
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It's such a touchy subject. I have managed to switch a few people over, but I don't preach to most of them. I had to shudder though when a family was at my vet's office and asked if the Purina or whatever they were feeding their puppy chi was okay and the vet said yes. I wanted to scream NO NO NO... It surprised me because this is the vet that suggested I feed mine raw.
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  #29  
Old September 9th, 2008, 10:20 AM
Soter Soter is offline
We're a dog's best friend
 
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Wink Don't worry, we understand

their poor pets, being fed horrible stuff just because they wont listen to a sense talker like you!:sad:
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  #30  
Old September 9th, 2008, 10:42 AM
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Stacer Stacer is offline
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I've definitely got some good links to provide them with and some of the things you guys have said in your posts will definitely be making their way into my email. I just hope that she really wanted the info and wasn't just humouring me.
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