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Old August 1st, 2008, 03:59 PM
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Question My dog is somewhat standoffish with People with Anger issues

I noticed it about a year ago but, this seems to get more noticeable as Zena gets older. When people who are known to have anger issues come to my door (which does happen as my husband is a pastor for a street mission) Zena either sits in a corner, hides behind us or goes right to the door with this low grumble. Not an outright growl but, more like a frustrated groan. She use to bark at angry people before she got spayed but, now just does this groaning thing. She will generally let these people pet her but, you can tell she isn't impressed. Even people she really likes have come to the door mad and she does this same thing. We are not a yelling or angry home. If my husband and I argue (which isn't often) we talk not yell. She has been with us since she was 4 months old and I know the people that had her before us but, not very well. I just find it strange that Angry people seem to trigger this. Also if another dog starts to growl at her she starts to show signs of wanting to fight back. So far I have been able to prevent a fight from breaking out but, I'm just hoping this doesn't get worse as she matures. I guess the reason I'm posting this now is because she hasn't done it for a long time but, the other day a guy that she always does this to came over and she did it again. There was one incident that comes to mind where a friend of ours came to visit and Zena would not stop growling, yes at this time she did growl. She actually went and sat in her crate and growled from there for an hour. Eventually she came out on her own and was fine with my friend. I just find this behavior quite strange. She's only been in one fight that I am aware of and it was a squabble over a bone kind of like a scrap between sisters that didn't last. Also I noticed that this behavior became more common after she got spayed. I'm not sure if something happened at the vet or what but, she is more wary of strangers now then before. Other wise she is very dog friendly and loves people unless they have anger issues. I'm looking for info on how to deal with this for preventative measures so that she doesn't become aggressive and I'm not sure where to begin. I certainly don't want to make it a training practice to bring angry people to my home to teach her to be nice. My husband is at present working on directing everything to the office but, old habits are hard to break and so we still get the odd person coming to the door. Zena is a Pit Bull Lab X so even breed characteristic info might help. Not really sure. Oh yeah and she does flip if someone goes in the back yard without me knowing it. I have a dog on premises sign up back there. She stops barking as soon as I ok the person back there though. She has never tried to bite or snap at anyone but, this strange reaction has got me puzzled. any ideas?
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Old August 4th, 2008, 09:25 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Animals have a gift to sense emotions that we feel. If someone is letting off 'negative' energy, she is reacting to it.

The mixture of her breed does not mean anything.

Too me, she sounds like a great dog that is communicating something to the people that she protects meaning you and your family. Please listen to what she is telling you. She means no harm but is warning you and the person as well.

As dogs get older, so do their level of tolerance. I am curious how old she is.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 11:06 AM
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Thumbs up thanks I thought I was nuts.

She will be 2 in November. Some people consider her temperamental and I agree she can be but, I do find her intuitive. Unfortunately because she is half Pit Bull one growl out or her and people think she's vicious or something.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 11:23 AM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Well she is very young so it is not a question of her ageing. How does she react with strangers when you walk her, or when they approach you?

Infact being part pit causes people to worry without just cause - very unfortunate but it is the society that we now live in.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 11:26 AM
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Quote:
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The mixture of her breed does not mean anything.
In my experience, this isn't always true. my dog is a basenji-mix. And true to the basenji character, he is aloof w/ strangers. (mind you, he is a well trained, normally friendly dog, but w/ strangers it's a different story.)

people don't need to know what her mix is if they are intimidated by her communication. I'd simply say she's a lab-mix and leave it at that. no need to perpetuate the stereotype of the bully breed and/or bully mixes.

as for the dog.. I don't see the problem. you're upset that your dog is defending your home and family? a growl is simply a warning. Frankly, I think your dog is showing some excellent self control if she's just uttering a low grumble when angry people come to your home.

now it's a different story if she's growling at happy, nice, family friends who visit. IF that's the case, she needs to work on some social skills.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 11:29 AM
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now it's a different story if she's growling at happy, nice, family friends who visit. IF that's the case, she needs to work on some social skills.
I agree 100%.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 02:10 PM
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No problem there.

Actually I don't have to tell people what mix she is. She has got to be one of the most obvious dogs in her mixes I ever heard of. People generally take one look at her and know she is a pit lab. As for the growling thing she is great with friendly people We're actually training her not to jump and lick so much. Walking has never been a problem though she is wary of certain types of people which suits me fine, there are just some people you don't want around you. She is excellent on leash, we actually have a friend that has trained police dogs in the past who leash trained her and we follow her every rule. Even off leash, like a dog park or beach or camping or something like that she is very well behaved and listens. She won't even go 2 leash lengths away from us at the beach. I'm not upset necessarily that she does this I just am curious about the behavior. That and wondering if I should be concerned. I personally like the fact that she lets me know who is safe and who's not. I have just never had a dog like this. We have always had dogs that were overly friendly or the kind that would hide in corners and bark til they drove you crazy. Never one that was so expressive without being loud about it.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 02:23 PM
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sounds to me like you have a wonderful dog. I really don't think it's anything to be concerned about. My dog is overly cautious of strangers, but honestly, I'd rather it that way.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 02:33 PM
BenMax BenMax is offline
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Personally - it sounds all good. I really do not think that there is an issue. In regards to naming her breeds within her. I would just say that she is a lab mix and leave it at that. There are many lab X boxer and they are mistaken as pittie X. This will save you some sterotyping people who will say it is an issue based on her background.

She really is fine. She is very in-tune.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 02:49 PM
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histears just curious, i know about your sight issue, has it deteriorated over the last couple of years, Zena very well be protecting you from these people. She can sense their anger, and is probably aware that you can't see them.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by aslan View Post
histears just curious, i know about your sight issue, has it deteriorated over the last couple of years, Zena very well be protecting you from these people. She can sense their anger, and is probably aware that you can't see them.
Very good point.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 03:34 PM
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Thumbs up Hmmm

I never thought of the sight thing. I know the owner of her mother had her til she was 4 months old and knew that she was coming to live with a blind couple. I know that he did some training with her but, never told me what that might have been. They knew where my husband worked and that I was looking for a protective dog. I just never really put 2 and 2 together. No my sight is pretty much the same. It's been bad since birth. I actually didn't know that she was a Pit Lab until after I said I'd take her. Her story of how she came to us is pretty neat actually. They had 3 females left over and the guy sat all 3 down on the floor and said their is a blind couple that want a dog which one wants to go. He started to walk away and she was the only one that got up and followed him. We chose her because of this then we found out what breeds she was and got nervous. I'm an overly cautious person and am notorious for covering my bases if possible. You have all been very encouraging. thank you. She really is a good dog. I've just never had one like her before. I wasn't even going to get a dog because we do travel some but, my pastor thought it would be good for us. We don't live in a horrible neighborhood like NY or Toronto or anything like that but, do live in a fairly rough area. Not real great if you are overly cautious believe me. Anyway thanks for the encouragement. I'll just chalk it up to helpful and keep an eye on her.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 03:53 PM
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Did you ever think that she is picking up on your discomfort? Just as she can read if someone is a little "off" she can also read if you are feeling uncomfortable.

As far a pit bull temperment, they were never bred as a guardian breed so in all reality, the vast majority of pit bulls are friendly to a fault, but I've also handled my fair share of pit bulls that will pick up a weird vibe off of someone, even when I don't. If you are curious, I would say that that is NOT typical of pit bull temperement. My dogs are all friendly to everyone to the point that it's a bit rediculous. I live in a really rough area with alot of street folks, many who are often "off" and they are just as freindly to them as anyone else. They're usually too busy trying to get some lovin's to be concerned about much, but then again, I chalk that up to me being very confident regarldess of my surroundings! lol

Personally, I don't think this is a non issue, considering you live in a province where your dog is basically a pariah. For her own safety, if it was my dog, I'd either work on it, or put her away when people come over. According to the law, if someone complained, who knows if they'd take action. According to the law, I don't even think she has to bite to be in trouble. Wasn't there some clause about a dog being "threatening"? I'd have to read over it again..

Last edited by Pit Bull Love; August 4th, 2008 at 03:58 PM.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 03:59 PM
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histears i really wouldn't worry at all about her having pit in her, I don't think it's a factor here. If an aggressive person attracts a dogs owner the dog will automatically defend the owner. I own a golden retriever who you can do anything to but if you touch either of his mommies look out.

oh where in new brunswick you from.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 04:10 PM
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Oh! Ooops! I thought you were from TO! lol I must have read that off of someone elses post!
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Old August 4th, 2008, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aslan View Post
histears i really wouldn't worry at all about her having pit in her, I don't think it's a factor here. If an aggressive person attracts a dogs owner the dog will automatically defend the owner. I own a golden retriever who you can do anything to but if you touch either of his mommies look out.
I have to disagree. I think having pit bull in her is a huge factor and not because that should give the dog any kind of negative personality trait like some people might erroniously think. The reason I think it is a huge factor, is that if a lab attacks someone as compared to a pit bull, you know how different the reactions will be. Any time a pit bull, even a mix, is involved in an incident, it puts EVERY pit bull at risk, including mine. Look at what happnened in Ontario. Because of the behaviour of two dogs, thousand of dogs have lost their lives already. Anyone who owns a pit bull or mix, needs to make sure their dog is the epitome of behaved, or it puts us all at risk. Any time an incident occurs, regardless of the circumstances, the media grabs on to it and runs with it causing talk of bans all over the place. My guess is she wouldn't want her dog to be the cause of New Brunswick considering a ban, or loosing her dog because she didn't try to work on this behaviour. I don't think it is quite something a non pit bull owner can understand as they may never felt the fear I've felt when they were rolling around the idea of a ban in my province.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 04:27 PM
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i didn't mean it didn't matter where the public is concerned. I meant it didn't play a part in the dogs temperment. I've been around pitbulls off and on most of my life, i use to be a trainer, i've read all of the statistic and am aware that a lab is just as prone if not more prone to biting than a pit. I don't think is this situation the dogs breed is what is at issue, i think the dog is just protecting her mommy. And personally i think society should start reporting any and all small dog attacks and lets just see how quickly the statistics change, can you see the poodle and chihuahua bans.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 06:04 PM
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yea

i will say that a majority of big dogs that i encounter (lab/pit/rottie mixes etc) are always very well behaved when you compare them to little yipping dogs that jump all over you and bit your pants all while the owner laughs about how cute their little doggie is!

they should report all dog attacks, but i guess they dont?

kind of dumb.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 06:25 PM
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Smile interesting

No I wouldn't have a Pit anything if I was in Ont. We actually live less than a block away from the downtown street mission we work for. It's considered one of the roughest neighborhoods here and it's getting worse as time goes by. We have been here for over 5 years now and I have seen a huge change in the atmosphere here. I know all the breed info I've read says that Pits are pretty friendly and even though I was worried when I got her It seemed from the info I read that the Lab side would actually be the more protective however her mom is the Pit and she is extremely protective. I do know a bit about her mom because the people who told us about the puppies were the parents of the mother's owner and they run one of our missions in Cape Breton. Boy I wish I had confidence like that, then I probably wouldn't care so much what happens around here in the sense that I wouldn't worry.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 06:39 PM
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I was going to say that because of the time frame in which she started displaying this behaviour, it could be the type of temperment she is maturing into, although I was leary to say that as a dog doesn't live in a vaccuum and there are so many possible causes to a dogs behaviour but if you are saying her mum was very protective, which is NOT a good temperment for a pit bull {personally I would not have gotten a pup whose mum was displaying such temperment} it could very well be the cause for the behaviour she is displaying. Have you considered getting some training help for her? I can't see her being very happy in this state. Can I ask what you do when she displays this behaviour?

I know where you are coming from with living in the ghetto. I live in Whalley in Surrey and it's pretty notorious for being.. well... insane! Someone just got shot up the street from my house at the store where we often go to. I'm looking forward to moving let me tell you!
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Old August 4th, 2008, 07:33 PM
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Lightbulb Yeah I wouldn't mind moving myself.

We live right in the middle of Moncton and the prostitution and drugs and fights over drugs and couples is totally off the wall. No shooting but, knives are the more popular thing around here. Moving is not an option for us right now so I need to learn to cope in this environment for now. Because My husband is the pastor for the local street mission we get to be privy to a lot of things I wish we didn't know and to watch people throw their lives away day after day is heart breaking.

I didn't know anything about Zena's background except who the mother was but, not her breed until after I said I would take her. I keep my word so I couldn't go back on it. I love the dog now and she is amazing with us though she needs to learn to be a little nicer to Pippin as she sometimes can be a bit of a bully with him.

Usually I try to get her to sit and let the person pet her, which she seems to be OK. with though if the situation doesn't allow for that I take her to another room or put her in her Kennel (not as a punishment) I almost always do the other room thing. In a tense situation it's very hard to deal with a dog and people at the same time. At first I use to console her but for the past 8 months or so I've been either ignoring the reaction unless action is necessary and then I make her sit in front of me and she stays there til the person leaves or she calms her nerves. any other ideas? She is very well behaved and listens to me at least 95% of the time and the other 5 is almost always in play in which case the tyo goes up and we play later.
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Old August 4th, 2008, 08:11 PM
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That's good you stopped comforting her, as that is no doubt someones first instinct but not helpfull. Sounds like you are doing pretty good with what you are doing. What I often tell people to do "training" wise, is to teach your dog an "out" command like "enough", "leave it" or whatever else you choose, and work on it during "non threatening"/positive situations. Teach her that obeying this command brings great praise and great treats! It's a really important back up command to have for high stress situations where getting immediate control of a situation is vital. Some other things you can do, is just work on general confidence building with her. How did her socializing go as a a pup? Did she get alot? Even if she did, keep it up for her whole life time. Even if you aren't generally a confident person, you can "fake it" enough for a dog to buy that you are! lol Do you practice NILIF with her. It can really make her feel more like you are leading, and less like she has to protect you and it is so simple. Do you know much about calming signals? Using "dog body language" can calm a stressed dog. Just google "dog calming signals" and you'll get some info on the concept. Along with keeping up on her obedience, using positive methods that build her confidence, excersise is one thing many people overlook. Sometimes just having pent up energy can cause a dog to be more prone to being over reactive to situations so never under estimate the concept "a tired dog is a good dog"! lol

Off topic, but I used to live in St. Stephen!
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Old August 4th, 2008, 08:16 PM
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Oh ya.. another thing you can try, if she has good toy drive, is keep some toys at the door, so if someone comes you can distract her with the toy. Depending how she reacts, you can either toss the toy for her before you open the door so she has her attention on the toy, or go the other route, wait until you answer the door, if she reacts, give her the "out" command and then praise her by tossing the toy if she listens. She may just start grabbing a toy when someone comes to the door relating guest to fun time! lol You can sort of use the same concept if she has higher food drive, by keeping some treats at the door and rewarding her accordingly when she listens and/or behaves on her own.
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Old August 5th, 2008, 07:14 AM
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Thumbs up thanks

These are some really good ideas, I have actually been working on the enough command with her. Toys or food would probably work with her but, sometimes she does have a one track mind. She generally gets tons of exercise but, I have noticed that if she doesn't get enough she is more antsy. By the way what is NILIF?
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Old August 5th, 2008, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kigndano View Post
yea

i will say that a majority of big dogs that i encounter (lab/pit/rottie mixes etc) are always very well behaved when you compare them to little yipping dogs that jump all over you and bit your pants all while the owner laughs about how cute their little doggie is!

they should report all dog attacks, but i guess they dont?

kind of dumb.
That's is pretty funny in a weird sort of way because it's true. I think some of the reason bigger dogs are so well behaved is because the owners realize the importance of obedience but, small dogs are sooo cute. I have a little dog too and I have trained him not to be yappy which is nice. The jumping is really cute but, I have to work on that little issue. I've heard people say they are more afraid of a Chihuahua than they are of a massive dog. Pip wouldn't hurt a flea though, way too passive for that.
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Old August 5th, 2008, 03:52 PM
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Something else you might consider, if she is reactive when people walk into your yard, is to put a lock on your gate then people won't just walk in. My gate is always locked. Helps keep the crew safe and properly confined. Especially with your girl having some fear issues with particular people, the last thing you want is to have her in trouble.

Something else I didn't touch on as far as breed behaviours is that maturing into dog aggression is something that is very common with pit bulls. It can happen at any age, but often shows itself around sexual maturity. It isn't something you can "cure" per se, but it can be managed by knowing your dogs triggers {ie food, toys, even excitment can be a trigger for some dogs} and tolerance level, as well as being very sensitive to the body language warning signs that are often very, very subtle as pit bulls usually don't do the whole threat display thing, but the signs are there if you are paying close enough attention. With her being a mix, she may not quite act like a "typical pit bull" but pit bulls don't always act like typical pit bulls either. lol
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Old August 5th, 2008, 06:33 PM
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She does have signs that are actually quite obvious. She usually will grumble at first which is a good indication that I need to pay close attention. She has on very few occasions borne her teeth and rolled her eyes up but, I can't blame her for that necessarily as it was because the puppy was torturing her by chewing on her eye lids. I don't let her get to that point anymore. Pip can be quite obnoxious with her at times. I think I would have a hard time not biting him with some of the stunts he has tried to pull. It's worse than a baby roughing up a cat. Pip is getting older so her tolerance is getting less. The whole grumble thing happened again tonight but, this time the man was actually nice, she's weird because she licks the guy and still grumbles at the same time. I know she doesn't like new things and he had the smell of a horse on him which she has never been around horses so I figure the scent is why she reacted. Sometimes I wish I didn't have such an Emo dog. She didn't get much exercise today either as it's been raining for the past 2 days and it's a small place so I guess I'll have to get out the laser toy for a few minutes. That wears her out as she runs back and forth like a maniac chasing it. I just hope the batteries aren't gone.
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Old August 5th, 2008, 06:45 PM
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Hello and welcome! sounds like you have a wonderful doggy! I was reading along and thought I would tell you NILIF stands for "Nothing in Life is free" in this form of training your dog must earn everything and as it says is not free! Now I dont have all the details about this training but many people here can jump in further!
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