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Old June 20th, 2008, 12:08 PM
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Guinness' mom Guinness' mom is offline
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Choosing a Breeder

As a pet owner I have made mistakes...my first puppy I bought from a pet store:sad: 15 years I was walking through the mall and saw this chocolate lab in the window of course the store owner asked me if I would like to hold him, BIG MISTAKE as I whip out a visa card and buy him...I was very lucky with Dylan(as for sure he was from an American puppy mill)
he was a great family pet and if someone brings him up in conversation I still end up in tears 3 years after his passing.
So this time I went through a "breeder". CKC said he had 14 years in good standing with them. (what exactly does this mean)
Since bringing my dog to classes I have heard so much more like for example with Labs...if you want a sporting Lab, Hunting Lab, family pet ect that you need the right breeder. My breeder happened to Hunt so Guinness comes from a long line of Hunting Labs and boy does he require a heck of a lot more exercise and work.
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Old June 20th, 2008, 12:48 PM
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I will assume that the Canadian Kennel Club is very much like the American Kennel Club to answer your question. I know many Canadian dog people who are active in many areas of the show world and have yet to have one indicate that there are any major differences.

Anyway.

The kennel clubs are really nothing more then a record keeping business that keeps track of the family trees (if you will) of dogs. They do this by charging breeders to register their dogs and the puppies that their dogs have. So far as I know, all that is required to be a member of good standing is to pay your registration fees, not let the checks bounce and keep anyone from accusing you of registering your dogs wrong. (Listing a different father then the actual father - stuff like that.)

As for the difference between sporting labs, hunting labs and pet labs - much is a matter of temperment. A dog that comes from parents who are very active and "work" for a living is more likely to be active and need a job. The REALLY important thing when choosing a breeder has been mentioned on the forum several times - it is important that parents are titled to show that they fit the breed standard, genetic testing should be done on parents to assure that the puppies have the best chance to be physically sound as humanly possible and much attention should be paid to proper feeding, socialization and training. If all of these things are in place then you look at temperments so far as prey drive, work ethic, etc.
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Old June 20th, 2008, 01:16 PM
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I agree with LavenderRott about the CKC. I have known of breeders that have listed with the CKC for years, are in good standing with them but I would never purchase from them.

It is very hard to find a good breeder. The best is through word of mouth. In my estimation, once you have purchased the dog, you just do your best to give it a good home with a happy balance.
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Old June 20th, 2008, 01:30 PM
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The reputable breeders I know are open with their customer list so that prospective buyers can call and ask questions before making their choice. When my dad was breeding and training hunting labs, he would always make a house call to see where "his" dog was going to be raised before he'd agree to sell it. Not sure anyone does that anymore.
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Old June 25th, 2008, 10:46 AM
Sarah Bella Sarah Bella is offline
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Quote:
The kennel clubs are really nothing more then a record keeping business that keeps track of the family trees (if you will) of dogs. They do this by charging breeders to register their dogs and the puppies that their dogs have. So far as I know, all that is required to be a member of good standing is to pay your registration fees, not let the checks bounce and keep anyone from accusing you of registering your dogs wrong. (Listing a different father then the actual father - stuff like that.)
It is a record keeping service that keeps track of more than family trees. It tracks health records of all studs and dams, prevents inbreeding and passing along of genetic disorders such as displaysia and eye disease. the registry is there to make sure that when you're purchasing a purebred dog that you get a HEALTHY purebred dog.


I didn't realize all that was involved with having a registered purebred dog until i got one.

I was able to trace my own labs pedigrees back to before labs were a recognized breed. My boys come from a very long line of Show Champions and Hunters.
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Old June 25th, 2008, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Bella View Post
It is a record keeping service that keeps track of more than family trees. It tracks health records of all studs and dams, prevents inbreeding and passing along of genetic disorders such as displaysia and eye disease. the registry is there to make sure that when you're purchasing a purebred dog that you get a HEALTHY purebred dog.


I didn't realize all that was involved with having a registered purebred dog until i got one.

I was able to trace my own labs pedigrees back to before labs were a recognized breed. My boys come from a very long line of Show Champions and Hunters.
The only way the registries track health records is if the breeder submits the results from the proper certification organization. They don't go and check to make sure that these certifications are given. They do nothing to prevent inbreeding and they certainly do allow the passing along of genetic disorders.

I won't speak about the Canadian Kennel Club - I live in the U.S. and have no experience with them - but I can tell you that there has been a big push by the AKC to get pet shop puppies registered with AKC to increase the money coming in. This means that commercial breeders (ie - puppy mills) are able to register their puppies so long as the adults are AKC registered.

I know of a very large rottweiler/doberman kennel in Pennsylvania. They are very "well known". And anyone who is serious about rottweilers or dobermans knows that they knowing breed dysplastic dogs. All of their dogs are AKC registered and have "championship" pedigrees.

There is nothing more involved in registering your dog then picking a name and sending in a check. I know. I have two.
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Old June 25th, 2008, 11:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Bella View Post
It is a record keeping service that keeps track of more than family trees. It tracks health records of all studs and dams, prevents inbreeding and passing along of genetic disorders such as displaysia and eye disease. the registry is there to make sure that when you're purchasing a purebred dog that you get a HEALTHY purebred dog.
The CKC does not keep track of anything to do with health records/genetic disorders etc. and it does not prevent inbreeding either. They register dogs and keep track of nothing but pedigrees and CKC titles (conformation, obedience, tracking etc.).

Individual breed clubs often keep databases like what you are referring to, but a CKC registration does not have anything to do with whether you are getting a healthy well-bred dog or not.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 08:41 AM
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One thing many good breeders are involved in is breed clubs and are usually active with an activity with their breeds, herding,flyball,agility,hunting trials,lure coursing,earthdog etc.Also breed clubs have a stricter code of ethics for their breeder members.They are also a great resource for the new puppy owner since they can offer advice on how to handle problems best with that particular breed.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 08:55 AM
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There are other registries, as well...Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA), for example, keeps a fairly extensive online database for various health screenings. If you find a breeder who has been using a registry for a long time, you can sometimes get a pretty good 'feel' for the genetics of a potential pup by looking at ancesters' info. Nothing is a guarantee, of course, because there can always be unusual genetic matchups, but it can at least make your chances of choosing a healthy pup more likely! When we decided on Ember, we were more interested in the health screenings and coefficient of inbreeding than we were with trialing results in his ancestors--so we researched the OFA listings more than the FDSB listings.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 09:22 AM
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Have you ever thought about rescuing a lab?
There are thousands of them looking for homes.

I'm sure you would have no problem finding a pup, or even a young adult, ans at least that way no potty training, and it's temperment and health would already be known. Many are trainied and have been around other animals and kids, and there is nothing like the love of a rescue! They know you saved them and are forever grateful
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Old June 26th, 2008, 09:49 AM
Sarah Bella Sarah Bella is offline
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Originally Posted by satchelp View Post
The CKC does not keep track of anything to do with health records/genetic disorders etc. and it does not prevent inbreeding either. They register dogs and keep track of nothing but pedigrees and CKC titles (conformation, obedience, tracking etc.).

Individual breed clubs often keep databases like what you are referring to, but a CKC registration does not have anything to do with whether you are getting a healthy well-bred dog or not.
I am going to have to reread some info and talk to our breeder, but if what you guys are saying is right then what is the point of a registry and paying top dollar for a dog that may be questionable?

Do we have any CKC registered breeders here that can tell us the steps that are taken to produce a litter of registered puppies?

And owners of registered studs, can you tell us the prerequisites for being listed in the studbook?

Im going to visit our breeder on Sunday and will ask her those questions then.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 10:17 AM
MaryAndDobes MaryAndDobes is offline
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Originally Posted by Sarah Bella View Post
I am going to have to reread some info and talk to our breeder, but if what you guys are saying is right then what is the point of a registry and paying top dollar for a dog that may be questionable?
The point of the registry is to keep record of the pedigrees and titles ONLY. It is YOUR job or anyone else interested in buying a puppy to check on health testing, temperament testing, longevity, working ability, faults/strengths/disqualifications, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Bella View Post
Do we have any CKC registered breeders here that can tell us the steps that are taken to produce a litter of registered puppies?
I am a CKC registered breeder. There are a ton of steps that I choose to take to produce a litter of registered puppies but they have nothing to do with the CKC. Anyone can register a litter of puppies and the only requirement is that the parents are CKC registered (or in the case of foreign sires, from a CKC recognized registry like the AKC, for eg).

The steps required from the CKC's perspective is that we fill out the registration correctly and send in the fee.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarah Bella View Post
And owners of registered studs, can you tell us the prerequisites for being listed in the studbook?
There are no prerequisites. If a dog is in a CKC studbook, it is either a dog that sired a litter, a dam that produced a litter or a puppy born of registered parents. Period.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Sarah Bella View Post
I am going to have to reread some info and talk to our breeder, but if what you guys are saying is right then what is the point of a registry and paying top dollar for a dog that may be questionable?
Registration from a reputable registery is just your first step in finding a dog. And by reputable - I mean AKC and CKC (that is Canadian, NOT Continental). There are several registries in North America that specialize in puppy mill dogs and will register any dog if you have the cash.

You must do you homework. It is up to you to know the genetic issues that your breed is prone to. It is up to you to make sure that such testing is done to minimize the chances that the puppy you buy will get them. It is up to you to make sure that puppies are properly socialized and nurtured before going to a new home.

And please - don't just take your breeders word for anything. If you breeder tells you that hips have been certified - ask to see the certificate. The OFA has a website. You can search for a dog's certification to ensure that testing has actually been done.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 10:28 PM
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Yes, but a lot of Canadian breeders do not use OFA for certifications. They use Ontario Veterinary College or the Western College of Veterinary Medicine in Saskatchewan. These results are not generally viewable. One should ask the breeder to see a copy of the hip certification papers.

Also, having results published on the OFA website is optional. Some may choose not to disclose their bad hip scores on a public database.
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Old June 26th, 2008, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by satchelp View Post
Also, having results published on the OFA website is optional. Some may choose not to disclose their bad hip scores on a public database.
That's true, although more are beginning to. However, if you find a breeder who has tested and published the results of some of their dogs, but not the dogs you're considering puppies out of, it should raise red flags. It might indicate that the breeder is testing them all, but withholding the results on some...and that would make me very nervous. At the very least, it would make me inclined to ask some very hard questions of the breeder.
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