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View Poll Results: Who do you prefer, Brad or Cesar?
Brad 17 14.17%
Cesar 71 59.17%
Neither 29 24.17%
Both are equal 3 2.50%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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  #301  
Old May 1st, 2009, 12:50 PM
animaladvocate animaladvocate is offline
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I LOVE CEASAR.

1) He doesn't yell or hit or lose his patience
2) He is very in-tune with dogs and identifies the problems in seconds!
3) Anyone who can take a fearful agressive dog, to a panting relaxed one is 17 seconds is a GOD in my books
4) He knows the dogs aren't bad dogs-it's the owners and their failures that have created these behavior problems

I understand that there are some cliche language things (like 'red zone' 'pack leader') that may turn people off-but he gets results EVERYTIME.

Could Brad take seven dogs on rollerblades? I doubt it.

I also love his focus on exercising and balanced lifestyles for the dogs, consistency, and moving on and not focusing on the past (many owners on there baby dogs who were neglected and end up turning them into monsters or fearful dogs!).

On our satellite every friday night is back to back episodes of the Dog Whisperer and then Dog Town all evening-that's how I spend my fridays (getting old right? LOL)


I think Ceaser is amazing!!! I *heart* him!
  #302  
Old May 1st, 2009, 01:04 PM
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Hehe I don't know what his rollerblading skills are, but 40 dogs plus their owners on an offleash hike in the woods? Yup, it was a great time Especially when they're all in a sit stay along the side of a path where 3-4 people decided to go by on their horses. Definitely a sight to see, it was so much fun!

Also note: In the City of Calgary, it's illegal to walk your dog using any wheeled item, including bikes, rollerblades, etc. I think the only exception may be a wheelchair, but I'm not sure about that one.

Last edited by Lynne_B; May 1st, 2009 at 01:06 PM. Reason: added bylaw info
  #303  
Old May 1st, 2009, 01:24 PM
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Cesar is another in a long line of trainers who use force to get their point across. His view of wolves is right out of mexican folklore, his application of this folklore to dogs is unjustified and his use of metaphysics is unwarranted and out of place.

His application of punishment to drive a dog into helplessness is not effective in the long term and detrimental to the dog-human relationship. The reason the dogs are often panting when Millan calls them "calm" is because they are highly stressed from the constant punishment.

But he does have something over Pattison; at least Millan doesn't scream at dogs.
  #304  
Old May 1st, 2009, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
Cesar is another in a long line of trainers who use force to get their point across. His view of wolves is right out of mexican folklore, his application of this folklore to dogs is unjustified and his use of metaphysics is unwarranted and out of place.

His application of punishment to drive a dog into helplessness is not effective in the long term and detrimental to the dog-human relationship. The reason the dogs are often panting when Millan calls them "calm" is because they are highly stressed from the constant punishment.

But he does have something over Pattison; at least Millan doesn't scream at dogs.
Just out of curiousity - where is it stated that Ceaser gives constant punishment? What is the punishment? How is there evidence of a detrimental dog-human relationship?

You obviously know something we don't so please do share. Thanks.
  #305  
Old May 1st, 2009, 03:07 PM
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I can agree with having a dog/puppy desensitized to being handled, but what I took from it is that he (Brad) uses it as a punishment or consequence to chewing. I also have seen dogs taught to take treats gently and not to snatch food from hands.

Lynne B I'm glad you have had success with Brads training methods. I like to consider myself fairly open minded (I know I may not seem like it but I do try ) . I got my first dog a year ago and my second dog in January . I like to keep an eye out for all kinds of dog training methods and views. I will also say that I have benefited greatly from some dog savvy people that helped me realize what kind of dog owner I want to be to my dogs.

Even though I am new to the dog world I like to think I know my dogs pretty well and I know myself well (at least I hope so ) and I don't think I could ever want to do the kind of training that Brad and even Cesar (or folks like Brad and Cesar) ,want people to do.
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  #306  
Old May 1st, 2009, 03:40 PM
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I watched the video again, just because I wanted to try and understand where you were interpreting it as punishment for chewing. I think you're misunderstanding what he's trying to do. He's not saying to pinch the ear as punishment, he's saying to do it to show that as soon as the dog says ouch, or yelps, you let go right away, just like when a dog nips, or goes for a shoe, you say ouch, and the dog learns to let go right away, like the puppy did with the pencil.
  #307  
Old May 1st, 2009, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Lynne_B View Post
I watched the video again, just because I wanted to try and understand where you were interpreting it as punishment for chewing. I think you're misunderstanding what he's trying to do. He's not saying to pinch the ear as punishment, he's saying to do it to show that as soon as the dog says ouch, or yelps, you let go right away, just like when a dog nips, or goes for a shoe, you say ouch, and the dog learns to let go right away, like the puppy did with the pencil.
It really doesn't matter what he says; it is by definition aversive and he is trying to use it as punishment.
  #308  
Old May 2nd, 2009, 01:34 AM
Promethean Promethean is offline
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Picture this scenario...you're at the dog park, there's a kid there that has something in his hand, icecream cone, dog treat, cracker, whatever. Dog or puppy comes up, goes to snatch it out of the kids hand, and a tooth accidentally scratches the kids hand, maybe he gets knocked over and starts crying. Mom or Dad freaks out, reports your dog as having bit their child, and sues you. Not a great scenario, but it happens. Maybe they don't sue you, but then you have to pay the added fee for a license for a "dangerous dog" and have him wear a muzzle from now on out in the public. Still no fun.
How about this scenario:

Brad jerks a dog for no reason while the dog was looking at a child. The dog then associates punishment and pain with children. The result is a dog that will see a child and expect an aversive event. In order to avoid this event he will strike out at the child in an attempt to avoid this punishment. Brad reacts by punishing the dog for barking thereby cementing this association of child=punishment making the dog dangerous to all children.

My scenario has the advantage of adhering to our understanding of animal psychology and cognition.
  #309  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 07:48 AM
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i think if you view cesar as an abusive person/trainer towards dogs you're a complete fool.

he never does anything with anger or frustration, he is always calm.

touching your dog on the side to interrupt his fixation on someone on a bike is not abusive.

touching your dog with your heel to re-direct him back towards you and away from little kids running and screaming (prey drive kicks in at these conditions sometimes) is not abusive.

not letting your dog run away from the situation by holding firm on the leash while he bucks and chokes himself is not abusive. in fact, a lot of dogs choke themselves while walking and being chronic pullers..are those owners abusive for allowing chronic pulling?


please, dogs are animals. animals sometimes require firm handling. especially when fixation takes over and everything else flies out of the window.



if you are a positive trainer, thats good for you. dont come into a thread about people who use other methods, and get on your sopabox, preach to everyone like youre holier-than-thou and act like a self-righteous d**cheb*g.

its disgusting.
  #310  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
How about this scenario:

Brad jerks a dog for no reason while the dog was looking at a child. The dog then associates punishment and pain with children. The result is a dog that will see a child and expect an aversive event. In order to avoid this event he will strike out at the child in an attempt to avoid this punishment. Brad reacts by punishing the dog for barking thereby cementing this association of child=punishment making the dog dangerous to all children.

My scenario has the advantage of adhering to our understanding of animal psychology and cognition.
prove to me that the dog associates one with the other...how are you going to do that?

take a survey by asking them?

how do you know the dog doesnt associate the correction with the mindstate of fixation?

you dont.

if you say you do, youre lying to yourself.

no one knows what a dog is "thinking" (dogs do NOT think, they react). if you pretend to, you are fooling yourself only.

dogs do learn through association of actions and reward/consequence.

but claiming that you know what action is associated with what reward/consequence is absurd.

you are claiming to be a mind reader...and you look like an idiot.
  #311  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 08:18 AM
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I think Prometheans example is very clear and easy to understand. Makes sense to me.
However each situation is different, as is each dog. While Promethean gave a very good generalization, I disagree that dogs correlate correction, with stimulus ALL THE TIME, in every situation. Everything really depends on the dog and handler.

I do have a question for you Promethean, how would you handle a green working line dog, intended for high level sport work/patrol work? The reason I ask....I have never heard of anyone training a working dog from start to finish without using some type of physical correction, during the dogs life. If you have(or have insight on the topic) please advise!
The farther I dive down the 'rabbit hole' of working dogs, the more I realize, nobody really has a clue!
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  #312  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 08:20 AM
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i also want to add that in the home, i train my dog with NILIF/Cesar methods.

EX.)

when i tell my stubborn dog to "go lay down" when i am eating - and he instead plops down in a sit and stares at me; i stand up, walk at him, snap my fingers and say "GO!" he ducks his head low, he gets his butt up and he goes and lays down....end of story.

to me, that is what i want in my relationship with my dog.

we play tug of war, and we rough house and play fetch. we have fun.

we walk every day, we hike, i pet him endlessly when he is laying around the house CALMLY.

HOWEVER

when i ask my dog to do something, like get out of my face when i am eating, or when he is bugging a guest.

he better respect my position, and he better listen to me.

i will NOT have a dog running my house, making a guest feel uncomfortable, making my girlfriend feel cramped or annoyed. period. no discussion, no debate.

if that means raising my voice and walking behind my dog until he gets his stubborn butt upstairs and lays down...thats fine with me. i feel thats what each dog owner should have with their dog.

nothing makes me more mad than some ignorant dog owner with their dog off leash, staring at ME, because i touch my dog to redirect them away from the off leash psycho. like I AM the bad owner.

i bet a lot of them are you positive-only trainer types. in fact i know they are, because they all have flexi leashes and wave a piece of deli meat around when their "good dog" barks at me and my dog and charges us.


seriously,

get a clue.


YOU OR YOUR DOG WILL LEAD AND CONTROL THE SITUATION IN THE DOGS MIND. YOU DECIDE WHICH WAY YOU WANT IT.
  #313  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 08:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdog22 View Post
I think Prometheans example is very clear and easy to understand. Makes sense to me.
However each situation is different, as is each dog. While Promethean gave a very good generalization, I disagree that dogs correlate correction, with stimulus ALL THE TIME, in every situation. Everything really depends on the dog and handler.
making any generalization about stimulus/response for all dogs is ridiculous.

claiming to know how/why the dog views/interprets any relationship is ridiculous.

that was my point.
  #314  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 08:37 AM
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I think your missing 4 key words in Prometheans post, "how about this scenerio".
Nobody is right or wrong. No dog is the same as the next.

I do happen to know MANY dogs that do react even worse when corrected while stimulated. I own one. But like I said, not all dogs are the same. I think logic is really lost in the game of dogs.

For instance, some of your methods and expectations would NEVER work for me and my dogs.

when i tell my stubborn dog to "go lay down" when i am eating - and he instead plops down in a sit and stares at me; i stand up, walk at him, snap my fingers and say "GO!" he ducks his head low, he gets his butt up and he goes and lays down


My dogs don't bother me when I'm eating. Period.
Sometimes they walk by, usually avoiding eye contact(sometimes giving a longing glance), acting cute and happy, in hopes I will toss them a tidbit. They do not beg in the first place. I find that digusting. I certainly don't have to stand up and get in my dogs face to get them to leave me alone, either. That does not make what I do RIGHT and it does not make what you do WRONG


Everyone is different just as every dog. Your way of life is no better or worse then mine. For you to condemn a training method, with little experience with it, is IMO ignorant and ridiculous. I suppose the same thing can be said about Promethean too. Promethean, what experience do you have with "ceasers method", have you practiced it, attended seminars, observed it thoroughly in person?

To each there own I suppose.
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Last edited by Blackdog22; May 3rd, 2009 at 08:46 AM.
  #315  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 09:16 AM
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kigndano, I'm not sure if you have been reading through this really long thread since your first post on the front page, but if you did you can see lots of people have been agreeing and disagreeing about BP and Cesar . It's been really back and forth and most of us have refrained from being rude to folks we disagree with.

I just think it would be interesting to see you try to make your point while curbing the hostility .

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  #316  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 09:22 AM
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i would like to remove the hostility.

but i really can NOT stand the holier-than-thou attitude of the "positive" training crew.

all people who like cesar milan are animal abusers, and if you disagree you're an animal abuser too!

thats the attitude i gather from that crowd, and it makes me so frustrated.

i also agree that no one's methods are right/wrong, good/bad (excluding beating your dog etc)

whatever works for you, and whatever works for your dog are the bottom line.

every soap box rant about how barbaric "traditional" methods are makes me
  #317  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackdog22 View Post
I think your missing 4 key words in Prometheans post, "how about this scenerio".
Nobody is right or wrong. No dog is the same as the next.

I do happen to know MANY dogs that do react even worse when corrected while stimulated. I own one. But like I said, not all dogs are the same. I think logic is really lost in the game of dogs.

For instance, some of your methods and expectations would NEVER work for me and my dogs.

when i tell my stubborn dog to "go lay down" when i am eating - and he instead plops down in a sit and stares at me; i stand up, walk at him, snap my fingers and say "GO!" he ducks his head low, he gets his butt up and he goes and lays down


My dogs don't bother me when I'm eating. Period.
Sometimes they walk by, usually avoiding eye contact(sometimes giving a longing glance), acting cute and happy, in hopes I will toss them a tidbit. They do not beg in the first place. I find that digusting. I certainly don't have to stand up and get in my dogs face to get them to leave me alone, either. That does not make what I do RIGHT and it does not make what you do WRONG


Everyone is different just as every dog. Your way of life is no better or worse then mine. For you to condemn a training method, with little experience with it, is IMO ignorant and ridiculous. I suppose the same thing can be said about Promethean too. Promethean, what experience do you have with "ceasers method", have you practiced it, attended seminars, observed it thoroughly in person?

To each there own I suppose.

what training method did i condemn?

secondly, my dog tests me like that on occasion, and when he is feeling stubborn i DO have to get up in his face to get him to listen. and thats fine with me if thats what it takes for him to get the point that i mean business when i say "Get out of my f-ing face when i am eating"

that said, i understand you said you were not right necessarily, nor was i wrong necessarily.

i agree.

i do what i need to for MY dog to understand me.


you do what works for you and yours.
  #318  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 09:46 AM
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The impression I got from your previous posts is that you dislike postive reinforcement(you have made a few references to this type of training), yet you gave no insight or information as to WHY the method is faulty. To me, this implies that you were ranting on the subject. Perhaps the word "condemn" was the wrong choice.
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  #319  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by kigndano View Post

YOU OR YOUR DOG WILL LEAD AND CONTROL THE SITUATION IN THE DOGS MIND.

[
Quote:
Originally Posted by kigndano
no one knows what a dog is "thinking"
Apparently, somebody does "know" when it is convenient for them
  #320  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 11:27 AM
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I think Prometheans example is very clear and easy to understand. Makes sense to me.
However each situation is different, as is each dog. While Promethean gave a very good generalization, I disagree that dogs correlate correction, with stimulus ALL THE TIME, in every situation. Everything really depends on the dog and handler.
And mine is based on various published research looking exploring animals exposed to aversives in the presence of neutral objects. The animals learn to associate these objects (like a child in my example) as predictors of the aversive and aggression to this neutral stimulus was the result.

Punishment is fine when you understand it and know how to use it. From my observations neither Pattison, Millan or Sullivan really know what they are doing when it comes to punishment.

Last edited by Promethean; May 3rd, 2009 at 11:36 AM.
  #321  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 11:41 AM
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Makes perfect sense to me.
Thanks for clearing that up, you seem to really know your stuff.

I find you to be very very well educated, you must have some lucky dogs.
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  #322  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 12:04 PM
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I've lucked out and found a trainer, who has been training, showing, raising and judging dogs for about 20 years. He uses both alot of praise and rewards, ie food. He does believe in using corrections but only when needed and when he is sure the dog understands what is required. So far we're on to our 4th class this week and there certainly is a change in Bayley. He really helps in what I'm doing incorrectly..(alot!) And of course puts most of what the dog isn't doing correctly onto the person.
  #323  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 01:17 PM
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Mommakat, did what I reply to you make sense at all? I don't take it personally if you agree or disagree, but I did want you to understand Brad's motives better in the video. Did I explain it well enough? Let me know if you have any more questions (here or in a PM if necessary).
  #324  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 02:02 PM
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Mommakat, did what I reply to you make sense at all? I don't take it personally if you agree or disagree, but I did want you to understand Brad's motives better in the video. Did I explain it well enough? Let me know if you have any more questions (here or in a PM if necessary).
lol I got distracted by other posts sorry . I do understand what your saying , I still of course (as you may have sensed ) disagree with it, but you did clear up what I originally thought was happening.

I will never be a Brad or a Cesar fan (Promethan I have never heard of Don sullivan ) . It is however , nice to read about others experiences with their methods and type of training.I did post the Video so I could hear others opinions, so I'm glad you responded and even found the video informative. I like to think this thread isn't really about convincing that one is best over the other, because that would be too much like saying that one way of dog training is the only way to train Dogs, and I don't believe that would be true either , because as someone stated before, each handler and dog are different.

Some opinions have been very strong (and a little heated ) but I like to think this thread is more about weighing each trainers methods (like Brad vs Cesar) and even putting them against other methods and other well known trainers in Canada and in the states. We have mentioned Clicker training and how it's used in Zoos and Aquariums and now in Dog training. We have discussed other Trainers (some I have not heard of ) like Ian Dunbar,Karen Pryor ,Susan Garnett , Ben Kerson and their methods. We also gone into lengthy discussions about Dogs body language.

I'll quit rambling on but , All in all I have found this discussion very interesting .
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  #325  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 03:10 PM
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Asked my trainer today what he thinks about Brad Pattison..his reply was Who? I asked for some reading material from him and he lent me some of his older books, including Open Obedience by Koehler..before everyone has a hissy..I'm curious about his methods. Also a book by Pearsall and one by Baumann. So I have some interesting reading to do.

My dog is not an easy dog...been discovering that in the last few weeks since we've been doing alot more work. One trainer told me she was a 'soft dog' Mentioned that to Dave today and his eyebrow went up. Sort of like, her soft, I don't think so! She's smart and learns fast and I'm definately learning that most of her errors are directly caused by me. Now the other things she does, like wandering around the arena...ladeda and not paying attention is our biggest thing to conquer. I mentioned today that it's a heck of a lot easier to train a horse!! He laughed. This is alot of work! I think though once we get our act together I'm going to have one heck of a dog! I have a goal to get her CGC or CGN whichever you prefer and then get her into Rally O by the end of the summer. Agility, well that may take a while! That teeter is a scary thing!

Last edited by pattymac; May 3rd, 2009 at 03:21 PM.
  #326  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 04:16 PM
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You are an idiot to ask for proof, that is not possible in science. Proofs are for mathematicians. Science deals with evidence

That would be an ignorant approach that only someone like you could suggest.


Because the scientific evidence indicates they make a connection with things and actions only humans have been found to make associations with mental states.

Bright boy, you contradict yourself, make up your mind.

lady

getting into an arguement about logic with an electrical engineer probably isnt a good move for you.

how about you take my words, and twist them around to make some clever off-hand remarks about proofs and evidence? or about me knowing what my dog is thinking, when i said clearly, no one knows.


youre really intelligent, definitely shines through.




typical nose-in-the-air aura of scumbag.



im out.

have fun posting on a message board thinking you are saving the world.

time to go kick some puppies.....
  #327  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 04:24 PM
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How about you guys take it to PMs or you just Ignore each other instead of risking the chance this thread will be closed .
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  #328  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 05:16 PM
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I will never be a Brad or a Cesar fan (Promethan I have never heard of Don sullivan )
Sullivan (I think he's Canadian) used to be on a show called Good dog!, though if I remember correctly in later seasons he was replaced by a trainer who was less about leash corrections and more about teaching and rewarding desired behaviours. He now has an informercial called for the perfect dog system.

In another board that I belong to, there are people claiming the universe is only 6000 years old. I am well aware that no amount of evidence will ever convince these people that they are wrong. That is not my purpose when engaging them. The purpose is to put forth factual information and refute the irrational arguments, correct their false assertions and point out the contradictions in their thinking. Same with this topic. I don't think the Millan-istas or the Pattisonians will ever accept scientific evidence over the proclamations of their particular guru. They beleive what they believe out of emotional reasons and this makes them immune to reason - their response is to fall back on persona attacks.

I answer for the lurkers, those who haven't made up their minds. Those on the fence or not familiar with modern thinking may be persuaded by their false arguments. If you know that Schenkel, who was one of the originators of this this alpha/dominanc eventually abandoned the concept then you likely look at claims of "alpha" with suspicion. If you know that no modern wolf or dog researcher uses this concept then you may question it when you hear the claims of self proclaimed television experts. If you know that this was based on non-family wolves held captive in a tiny enclosure, then you might get a better understanding of the aggression that was observed. The information is provided to those who don't know. The ones who confuse belief with knowledge are beyond the reach of reason. I won't go into the logic of it in order not to leave out the electrical engineers in the audience.

As Mech writes:
"The issue is not merely one of semantics or political correctness. It is one of biological correctness such that the term we use for breeding wolves accurately captures the biological and social role of the animals rather than perpetuate a faulty view".

On one hand we have a world renowned researcher whose work is cited by almost everyone in the field and OTOH we have 2 guys selling their product.

Last edited by Promethean; May 3rd, 2009 at 05:29 PM.
  #329  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 06:59 PM
animaladvocate animaladvocate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Promethean View Post
How about this scenario:

Brad jerks a dog for no reason while the dog was looking at a child. The dog then associates punishment and pain with children. The result is a dog that will see a child and expect an aversive event. In order to avoid this event he will strike out at the child in an attempt to avoid this punishment. Brad reacts by punishing the dog for barking thereby cementing this association of child=punishment making the dog dangerous to all children.

My scenario has the advantage of adhering to our understanding of animal psychology and cognition.
For the sake of argument (and not a mean one-I like to be polite so play nice with me )

I think your making a jump here: In order to avoid this event he will strike out at the child in an attempt to avoid this punishment.

I agree with your premise that a punishment (jerking the dog) when he looks at the child makes an association of "punishment-children". I disagree that this will make the dog 'strike out at the child in an attempt to avoid this punishment"

I think that's a leap; A dog may do that and another dog may tremble when he see children, and another may avoid. But I don't think you can predict that any dog would automatically start striking out at children when punished for fixating on them

I open for debate-I keep an open mind. My background in training is a BSc in Pyschology/Biology with special focus on learning and behavior -but far from knowing it all of course!
  #330  
Old May 3rd, 2009, 09:41 PM
Promethean Promethean is offline
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Well, it was my scenario, one offered as a counter to Lynne's skewed, alarmist tale. And it does have the benefit of being in accordance with our understanding of animal behaviour.

But you are right, just because the pairing is made doesn't mean a dog will always or that all dogs will respond aggressively. Though that is one of the problems with using punishment this way; it is unpredictable.
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