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Old March 30th, 2016, 08:56 AM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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Vanectyl-P

Hi, our dog has been put on a low dose (two per day) of Vanectyl-P to help manage her allergies. She is roughly 100-105LBS. She was on it before in a much larger dose (6 per day) when she was having issues with ear infections, anal glands were causing issues, there were some issues in the crotch area as well. We now have all these under control, but the odd ear infection and crotch area issues would come back occasionally that we handled with cream and ear drops.

The issue that we were still having a hard time with were the glands. She was going in to the vet every 1.5-2 months to have them expressed. She handles it well but the poor dog just shakes and really hates the vet. They thought we should try the low dose of these meds. If it stops these issues from happening maybe we could reduce the vet visits to 2-3 times per year for her.

The issue is that these pills make her very thirsty which results in emergency situations around 4:00 in the morning where she needs out right away to pee. We try to make her ration her water, but you feel bad after they empty a bowl and then just lay down beside it. I'm not sure if it is OK to not give them more or not.

Will her body eventually adjust and stop being so thirsty? What would the minimum dose be that might still have the desired effect on her?

We have also heard about Apoquel that apparently does the same thing but without steroids and has less side effects. Has this been around for a long time and been well tested. Does anyone have any personal experience with this and whether or not it actually works? Last, and not that important, is it cost comparable to the Vanectyl-P? At the end of the day we don't really care about cost as long as it helps our dog feel better and live better, just helpful to know for budgeting reasons.

Thank you all for your help and suggestions.
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Old March 31st, 2016, 01:49 AM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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There is no way around the fact that this is a steroid, and long term use with steroids can be pretty bad, so you want to get to the lowest possible dose. Long term use runs the risk of things like cushing's. If you can find more holistic or natural ways to deal with the allergies, that would be best. Even antihistamines, in people, can cause damage, most recently showing that they block acetylcholine and can contribute to the development of dementia down the road.

I don't know if it's an option for you, but I have my dog on allergy shots, but the oral version. It's expensive, about $350 US every 3-4 months (she is a small dog), but it has been life altering for her - she no longer breaks out in hives and other things. She still has allergy issues, but they are manageable without drugs, thanks to the immune therapy.

I'm guessing you've done all the food changes and things that might help with the allergies.
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Old March 31st, 2016, 08:19 AM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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We were actually talking about that yesterday, maybe we should just switch all of her food out, but we have no idea where to start... It sounds like chicken and beef are the two most common problems and we have already removed all of that. We switch the wet and dry food that she gets too, but those didn't work. So I guess the next step is to change all of it, we just don't know what to replace it all with.

Is removing all meat related things a good idea and just basically have her be a vegetarian? She is due back at the vet early next week so we will ask them.

Does anyone here know of any diets or food types/brands that have been successful with allergies?

Thanks for your help and advice, we appreciate it!
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Old March 31st, 2016, 10:31 AM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
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I had a real hard finding the right dog food for my small dog , he had
crystals in his urine and wasn't able to pee so I had to stop feeding dried food that had yeast and wheat , I tried all kinds canned food even Kosher dog food and he couldn't eat it . He was getting constipated or diarrhea from his food. I now have on Earthborn dried dog food , he can't have any chicken , it doesn't agree with and I don't give any dog food that coloring in it . Pets don't care what color or shape their food is . Marty been eating
Earthborn for a few years now and it doing fine on it. It is grain free .
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Old March 31st, 2016, 10:53 AM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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Ok, good to know, we will look into that.

We also had issues with either constipation or diarrhea. Mineral oil usually sorted out the constipation but diarrhea was always the tricky one. Those pepto chewable tablets somewhat worked but was always a fight to get her to eat them. But after trying canned pumpkin I am a true believer.

After one of the more lengthy vet visits that really stressed her out gave her the worst case of it we had seen. Nothing had worked and it had been about two days. We figured lets try the pumpkin. It was fixed in a day and the best part is she loves the stuff. It is now part of her daily diet and she hasn't had problems since.
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Old April 1st, 2016, 10:50 PM
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Loki Love Loki Love is offline
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Vanectyl-P has a very low amount of steroids per tablet - 2mg/tablet which is a low dose for a large dog such as yours, but nonetheless still a steroid.

I've heard amazing things about Apoquel and really wanted to have my Loki on it, but it's not available here in Canada yet :/

I feel for you in regards to allergies and trying to determine the issue - we struggled for nearly a year until a low dose of prednisone finally got everything under control. We tried switching up foods, etc but nothing helped.

If you are thinking of switching up food - I'd suggest trying raw (we were already raw feeding so that left us at a bit of a loss). You can also try the golden paste which is a turmeric based paste that is supposed to help with allergies (we had no luck).

Good luck to you! I can certainly sympathize.
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Old April 1st, 2016, 11:00 PM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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Well that's good to know that it is a really low does. I hope we can find a food solution and not have her taking any. The thirst is still a huge problem. We are going to try to keep giving her the one in the morning but maybe try a half pill in the evening to see if that helps. We should be back at the vet in a few days so I will ask about the Apoquel and see if we are any closer to getting it in Canada.

We fill the bowl up before we leave in the morning and it usually isn't empty when we get home so I figure she sleeps all day. Its the evening after work where she just keeps drinking. We have to figure something out because I can only go without sleep for so long, LOL.

Thanks for the suggestions, we are hoping to try out some new food this weekend and figure something out.
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Old April 1st, 2016, 11:07 PM
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Loki Love Loki Love is offline
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I wrote directly to Zoetis about a year ago asking them when Apoquel would be available here - they couldn't give me a definitive answer. If you do end up with updated information on availability, please let me know!
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Old April 1st, 2016, 11:10 PM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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I will do that. Have a good weekend!
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Old April 2nd, 2016, 01:53 AM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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If the thirst and urination is from the steroids, the dose doesn't matter, what matters is that she is reacting. My 80+ pound GSD was on 5 mg a day at the end of his life, and he definitely had side effects from it.

My experience is that grains, starches, and even some veggies can cause problems, it's not just about the protein. It takes a bit of sleuthing to figure out sometimes. While some don't believe in food allergy testing, I've done it for three dogs and it helped a ton for all three. For example, my current dog is allergic to potatoes and peas (among a bunch of other stuff), and generally can't tolerate legumes of any type, and most grains. Suspect everything...
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Old April 2nd, 2016, 09:10 AM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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We agree, that's why it seems like such a daunting task, nothing is safe. But we are willing to try for the dog's sake. We would rather she not be taking any medication if possible so that is the goal.
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Old April 5th, 2016, 04:27 AM
MaxaLisa MaxaLisa is offline
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I am glad you are trying. I would try to find a single protein, single grain/catb source if you can find it. You will have to find a store that carries the better foods. The standard thing to try is something like venison and potato, unless you have a dog like mine that is allergic to venison and potatoes. I had luck with my GSD with some of the frozen foods like Primal or Stella Chewy's, but they are super super expensive if you have a large dog. There are some foods you might get online too. I have a friend that is having luck wuth her larger dogs with Pioneer naturals dog food, they have a grain and potato free dog food.
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Old April 5th, 2016, 08:10 AM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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We are heading back to the vet on Thursday and will ask a few questions there. Her dry food is duck and potato, I think her wet food we mix it with is the same.

We figured first we will address the treats a couple at a time. We were looking into them in greater detail and found some still had beef flavouring or some artificial coloring, that sort of thing. Even the milk bones had some of that stuff in them. Seeing as how we have switch the wet/dry mix a bunch of times with no luck and then finding some of the bad things still in her treats that seems like the best place to start.

Hopefully we can find some replacement milk bones and treats that are more natural and that solves the issue.
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  #14  
Old April 7th, 2016, 09:02 PM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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Hi everyone,

We just got back from the vet today. We have some helpful tips for diet changes we are hoping can fix all of this for us including home made things that are very simple. After some experimenting this weekend we can let you know how that went. Our dog is very picky so if she likes some of these things chances are other dogs may too.

Now for the interesting stuff. We asked about Apoquel and she immediately knew what it was and has so far heard very good, positive things. She says one of the main issues on why it isn't in Canada yet is actually because it was such a huge success in the US that there wasn't enough supply.

She said there is actually supposed to be a sales rep coming in over the next few days to explain the details and they have already sent a few of their own on some training courses about it too. She did think it will likely be more expensive than the Vanectyl-P but if it is steroid free and roughly as effective less the side effects it is expected to be very popular here too.

So for us, we are going to play with the diet over the next few months and see if we can figure it out, but at least it is nice to know that if we can't solve the problem a few months from now there will likely be an alternative to the Vanectyl-P.

I think I may repost the bit of this about the Apoquel in a fresh thread with the name in the title just in case anyone else is looking for information on it. It may be easier to find that way. Hopefully this is useful to some. Thanks again for all the helpful suggestions and information, we appreciate it.

Also, just thought we should post a few pictures to put a face to the name so to speak. Not sure if it will worked, but we tried to post some.
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Old April 7th, 2016, 09:35 PM
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Old April 8th, 2016, 08:19 AM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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Yeah, we try to do our best for her considering all she has had to put up with over the last couple of years, which includes taking up the entire couch as you can see. Luckily she is very tough, even the vet is amazed. When she had a really bad ear infection there was so much crud in there they didn't think they could do the usual cleaning prior to meds because it would be too painful. They said to just give her the medication to help bring down the swelling and bring her back in a few days, but they figured they would try. They were shocked when she let them get right in there and clean both ears right up without even a whimper. Same goes for the gland issues. Even the first time when one burst she never made a sound and just dealt with it the whole time.
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Old July 2nd, 2016, 05:10 PM
zreebirt zreebirt is offline
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Currently on Apoquel

it works!
However you have to keep a schedule or it wears off quickly.
Our cost in Canada, is about $250 for 100 pills.
Looking at your Vanectyl-P dosage I would say you would be using a pill a day.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 01:21 PM
Hailey7777 Hailey7777 is offline
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Glad to hear we have it in Canada now and that it works. I don't recall what the price for the other stuff was, but $250 for 100 doesn't seem too bad if you can get away with 1 per day.

We are now making our dogs treats and food with the exception of a few things which luckily has seemed to do the trick so she is now medication free (and she also seems to love the home made stuff much better than the store bought stuff).

If we start to see any issues coming back at any point we will for sure look into Apoquel regardless of price. There is no way I would put her back on the other pills that made her so thirsty. Thanks for the update, and I am glad the new medication is working for you.
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 06:06 PM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Atopica has been around longer than Apoquel. With it you dose once a day for a month but then you see how many days you can separate. My boy went to every second day and topped out at every third day. That brings the cost down. We also used Van-P, the Atopica is thought to be a lesser evil.

My dog is no longer on Atopica and he's not itching. I posted a long response to Zreebirt that might help you too.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=87215

Good luck
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Old July 3rd, 2016, 06:56 PM
Barkingdog Barkingdog is offline
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I love it when dogs sleep on their back , it's so cute ! You have a beautiful dog.
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Old July 4th, 2016, 09:53 PM
zreebirt zreebirt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longblades View Post
Atopica has been around longer than Apoquel. With it you dose once a day for a month but then you see how many days you can separate. My boy went to every second day and topped out at every third day. That brings the cost down. We also used Van-P, the Atopica is thought to be a lesser evil.

My dog is no longer on Atopica and he's not itching. I posted a long response to Zreebirt that might help you too.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=87215

Good luck
Atopica did nothing for us. Atopica for dogs comes in capsule form, our dog is allergic to the gelatin. We switched the Atopica for cats (liquid), the reaction wasn't as bad, but still didn't help any.
Atopica is not very cost effective. I think we were spending $350 a month, and my dog weighs 63lbs.

But again the Atopica may work great for another dog. Just not mine.

Apoquel hasn't been tested long term at our current dosage, we are currently using it "off label"
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Old July 5th, 2016, 06:23 AM
Longblades Longblades is offline
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Zrebirt, how long ago was that? I'm sorry the Atopica didn't work, I did see that in your own thread. I do know the gelatin is not tolerated by some dogs, that's too bad. But at 63 pounds I will guess your dog was dosed at 150 mg or less since my dog at the time was 75 pounds. The price went down each year, especially after Apoquel became available and was competition. My last batch of 30 100mg and 20 50mg was down to less than $200. It did start out a very high price. Apoquel, when I tried it for a short time, was a comparable price. Also, look on line for Atopica promotions directly from the company. It may be that they offered them when Apoquel was new but they might still do it.
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Old July 6th, 2016, 06:01 PM
zreebirt zreebirt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Longblades View Post
Zrebirt, how long ago was that? I'm sorry the Atopica didn't work, I did see that in your own thread. I do know the gelatin is not tolerated by some dogs, that's too bad. But at 63 pounds I will guess your dog was dosed at 150 mg or less since my dog at the time was 75 pounds. The price went down each year, especially after Apoquel became available and was competition. My last batch of 30 100mg and 20 50mg was down to less than $200. It did start out a very high price. Apoquel, when I tried it for a short time, was a comparable price. Also, look on line for Atopica promotions directly from the company. It may be that they offered them when Apoquel was new but they might still do it.
It was about 3 weeks ago.
If I'm reading my bill right it was $127 for a small bottle 5ml, and we were doing two bottles a month (bottle every 2 weeks) Plus ketoconozole, plus Apoquel.
I just refilled Apolquel 2 days ago at $279 for 100 16mg pills.

My vet got the Apoquel in next day, so they are in the warehouse and readily available in Canada.
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Old July 6th, 2016, 06:05 PM
zreebirt zreebirt is offline
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Originally Posted by Hailey7777 View Post
Glad to hear we have it in Canada now and that it works. I don't recall what the price for the other stuff was, but $250 for 100 doesn't seem too bad if you can get away with 1 per day.

We are now making our dogs treats and food with the exception of a few things which luckily has seemed to do the trick so she is now medication free (and she also seems to love the home made stuff much better than the store bought stuff).

If we start to see any issues coming back at any point we will for sure look into Apoquel regardless of price. There is no way I would put her back on the other pills that made her so thirsty. Thanks for the update, and I am glad the new medication is working for you.
I have an easy dog treat recipe from the allergy specialist!
I have copied the recipe and pasted below.

Oatmeal Treats

As long as we stay within the confines of the diet, you can give treats.

You can add oatmeal to the diet as well, just to mix things up a bit or to serve as a treat:
Boil up oatmeal (this must be old fashioned, rolled or steel oats – non-flavored, non-instant) using a 1:2 ratio of oats:water and a pinch of salt. Do not add anything else to the mix.

Oatmeal Pilling Balls:
Boil up oatmeal (this must be old fashioned, rolled or steel oats – non-flavored, non-instant) using a 1:1 ratio of rolled oats and water. Drop thick oatmeal by spoonfuls onto a baking sheet and bake at 300-350°F for 20 minutes. These soft treats can then be stuffed with your pet’s medication and administered using the 3-ball technique:
1) First ball has no medication in case your pet decides to sort through the ball looking for meds
2) Second ball has medications stuffed into the middle
3) Third ball is held up at the ready just after giving the second ball so that the pet gobbles down the second ball in anticipation of getting the third ball

You can also bake oatmeal cookies:
Boil up oatmeal (this must be old fashioned, rolled or steel oats – non-flavored, non-instant) using a 1:1 ratio of rolled oats and water. Spread thick oatmeal flat onto a baking sheet and bake at 300-350°F for up to 60 minutes then leave in oven until cool (crunchy dog treat). They will not be golden or crisp (no sugar or butter added –shucks!)

Be sure to freeze or keep balls and cookies in the fridge – they will go moldy quickly.

You can also make frozen treats:
Boil up oatmeal mixture 1:1 as above then add to an ice cube tray to desired thickness and freeze. You may also include broken-up kibble to add a little extra taste. Give as a frozen chewable treat.
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