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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:15 PM
Boxerlady Boxerlady is offline
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Vindictive peeing?!

I have a 7 month old boxer, purchased from a breeder (not a byb or puppy mill- this breeder is reputable and only produces 2 litters per year, with 2 sets of parents)....

He is SO smart! He knows every trick in the book, he's figured out how to open up doors and turn on water faucets... Hell, he's even trained to ask for help if someone is laying on the floor for an extended period of time....

However, potty training with him, has been a nightmare. He stays in the crate while I am at work, and EVERY day when I come home- he has peed in it.

My dog never soils the house, but if he is in his crate for longer than 2 hours, he pees. My dog does have some SA issues (because I am the sole owner and we live alone), and I am starting to think that the peeing is his way of telling me that A. I should be at home with him, and B. He doesn't want to be in the crate.

Has anyone ever heard of this? I can't figure it out, and it's driving me crazy.

Last edited by Boxerlady; February 29th, 2008 at 02:12 PM.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:25 PM
06canyon 06canyon is offline
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two of my mom's dogs "soil in the house" when she leaves. even if it is just to go to the garden. we haven't figured out how to fix it so if you figure it out could you let me know please?
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:29 PM
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*snort* i ahve a cat who vindictively eats..... and then barfs it up all over the place. do you leave things in the crate with your dog when you leave??

-ash
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:31 PM
Boxerlady Boxerlady is offline
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Yeah! I leave him a kong and a couple of "crate safe" toys...

He's so smart, I don't get why he ONLY pees in his crate. He never poos, and he never goes in the crate when I'm home- he'll walk me to the door when I'm there.

Just, for some reason, he's a vindictive bugger when I put him in his crate.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:38 PM
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how long can he last when you are home??? do you think leaving a blanket in there will help?? i tried a crate divider once and Misters tail got stuck in it and it freaked him out.

have you tried putting a blanket in there??

-ash
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:38 PM
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oh and how long has he been doing this?? long enough to 'grow out of it'??

-ash
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:42 PM
Boxerlady Boxerlady is offline
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Originally Posted by want4rain View Post
how long can he last when you are home??? do you think leaving a blanket in there will help?? i tried a crate divider once and Misters tail got stuck in it and it freaked him out.

have you tried putting a blanket in there??

-ash
He USED to have two blankets and a foam pad in there- now he just gets 3 fluffy towels (because they have to be washed every day).

He can hold it for like 8 hours when I'm home sometimes (I take him out twice in the morning before I leave).

He's been doing it since he was 8 wks old. I hate having to discipline him first thing when I get home- it breaks my heart!
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:45 PM
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However, potty training with him, has been a nightmare. He stays in the crate while I am at work, and EVERY day when I come home- he has peed in it.
Yikes, how long is he in the crate for? No dog should be confined in one for more than 4 hours at a time (even less for younger dogs). What does he do if he has the run of the house? What about setting up a "long-term confinement" area as described in this article: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training...-amp-doggy-den
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:47 PM
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He's been doing it since he was 8 wks old. I hate having to discipline him first thing when I get home- it breaks my heart!
Oy!! Disciplining him so long after the fact will do nothing to resolve this issue. He has no idea what he's done wrong.

How long were you leaving him in the crate when he was 8 weeks old?
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Boxerlady View Post
He is SO smart! He knows every trick in the book, he's figured out how to open up doors and turn on water faucets... Hell, he's even trained to ask for help if someone is laying on the floor for an extended period of time....
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Originally Posted by sugarcatmom View Post
What does he do if he has the run of the house?
*snort* i can only imagine!!!

-ash
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:49 PM
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Yikes, how long is he in the crate for? No dog should be confined in one for more than 4 hours at a time (even less for younger dogs). What does he do if he has the run of the house? What about setting up a "long-term confinement" area as described in this article: http://www.dogstardaily.com/training...-amp-doggy-den
it doesn't matter how long he's in the crate- he pees if it's an hour to two hours... Sometimes even 15 mins.

And btw- I've had dogs before that I crated, 8 hours is the absolute max you should keep a dog in a crate... General rule of thumb is the no. of months they are + 1 hr up to 8 hrs.

I live in an apartment with an open floor plan- I don't have those options. It's crate or no go. :*(
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:52 PM
Boxerlady Boxerlady is offline
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Oy!! Disciplining him so long after the fact will do nothing to resolve this issue. He has no idea what he's done wrong.

How long were you leaving him in the crate when he was 8 weeks old?
No. He knows what he is doing is wrong. Anytime he pees in his crate, he gets down with his ears back, and crawling towards me. That's what kills me about this- he knows he peed in the crate, he knows it's wrong, and he does it anyway.

I used to take him to work with me when he was 8 wks.... And then started leaving him in the crate for 1-2 hour increments to get him used to the crate.


I have a new job and cannot bring him into work. I've had several other dogs that I have crate trained, and I have NEVER had this problem.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:53 PM
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I live in an apartment with an open floor plan- I don't have those options. It's crate or no go. :*(
Why did you even get a dog then?
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:54 PM
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*snort* i can only imagine!!!

-ash
lol. you can only imagine is right!

I've had to try THREE different child proofing techniques to keep my doors shut (he knows how to open doors with lever handles AND round handles)... And I now have a "lock" on the water faucet because he likes to drink out of the sink/bathtub and has figured out exactly which nozzle goes to cold and hot.

He's too smart for his own good. I'm scared i'm going to come home one day to the oven turned on if I leave him out of his crate.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:56 PM
Boxerlady Boxerlady is offline
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Why did you even get a dog then?
Why are you bothering to help if you're going to be judgmental?

My apartment is big enough for two people to live in- he gets plenty of exercise.... But he's a danger to himself if I leave him out of his crate.

No need to be rude. There are MUCH worse places he could be. My dog is loved, cared for, and spoiled.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 01:57 PM
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No. He knows what he is doing is wrong. Anytime he pees in his crate, he gets down with his ears back, and crawling towards me. That's what kills me about this- he knows he peed in the crate, he knows it's wrong, and he does it anyway.
That's you projecting feelings onto him. All he knows is that he's going to get in trouble.

And dogs don't have emotions for "revenge" or being vindictive. Again, you're projecting.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:00 PM
Boxerlady Boxerlady is offline
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That's you projecting feelings onto him. All he knows is that he's going to get in trouble.

And dogs don't have emotions for "revenge" or being vindictive. Again, you're projecting.
I'm not projecting anything.... Where the hell are you getting that from?

Dogs DO have emotions, I've seen a dog get mad for an owner petting another dog, and walked up next to him and peed.

You have obviously never worked around dogs, or been an owner of plenty of dogs if you don't know that.

I've never disciplined him for peeing in his crate... As I stated, "it kills me".
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:13 PM
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I had this problem with both my male who was adopted as an adult (from an abusive past) and temporarily with our foster.

A dog crawling with their ears back is a sign of submission and/or fear, not guilt. It's likely a response to being desciplined. Dogs live in the moment and don't understand their being reprimanded for something they've done 5-10-30 minutes ago. An unwanted behavior must be corrected "in the moment" and consistently in order for it to be effective. (By correction, I mean a sharp, "uh uh" for example). Correcting them long after has no effects at all except to provide them with confusion and teach them to fear your arrival.

This worked wonders with my dogs...before leaving them crated for any amount of time, they have a minimum of 45 minutes off-leash playtime including lots of running and chasing toys (with me outdoors with them of course), then a brisk 30 minute walk. They are then crated with a food-stuffed Kong. I linger around for several minutes then leave the house.

If there were any accidents, I completely ignored it, as I ignore them for several minutes when I return home. It keeps the excitement to a minimum and with our male, he no longer crawls submissively over to me anymore either .

There will be some accidents, but with no reaction from an owner, they will become fewer and fewer until extinct.

Have you ever tried video taping your pup when you leave? I think his peeing in the crate has more to do with anxiety rather than vindictiveness .
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:19 PM
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Have you ever tried video taping your pup when you leave? I think his peeing in the crate has more to do with anxiety rather than vindictiveness
yeah, i second that. do you kennel at all then you are home??

-ash
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:20 PM
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I had this problem with both my male who was adopted as an adult (from an abusive past) and temporarily with our foster.

A dog crawling with their ears back is a sign of submission and/or fear, not guilt. It's likely a response to being desciplined. Dogs live in the moment and don't understand their being reprimanded for something they've done 5-10-30 minutes ago. An unwanted behavior must be corrected "in the moment" and consistently in order for it to be effective. (By correction, I mean a sharp, "uh uh" for example). Correcting them long after has no effects at all except to provide them with confusion and teach them to fear your arrival.

This worked wonders with my dogs...before leaving them crated for any amount of time, they have a minimum of 45 minutes off-leash playtime including lots of running and chasing toys (with me outdoors with them of course), then a brisk 30 minute walk. They are then crated with a food-stuffed Kong. I linger around for several minutes then leave the house.

If there were any accidents, I completely ignored it, as I ignore them for several minutes when I return home. It keeps the excitement to a minimum and with our male, he no longer crawls submissively over to me anymore either .

There will be some accidents, but with no reaction from an owner, they will become fewer and fewer until extinct.

Have you ever tried video taping your pup when you leave? I think his peeing in the crate has more to do with anxiety rather than vindictiveness .
Unfortunately- I do pretty much everything you've said.

I take him out first thing when I wake up- I feed him while I'm in the shower, and then we go for a walk/ go play outside for 45-60 mins, where then we walk back home, he goes potties AGAIN, and then goes into the crate while I am gathering up my stuff.

He goes in there with a kong and a couple of other "chewies".

I get what you're saying about being submissive- but he used to do the same thing while we were having issues with him going potties inside...

I'd be making dinner, he'd go pee in the dining room, and come walking in with his ears back, crawling.... Because he associates going to the bathroom anywhere except outside, with being put in time out.

I haven't tried video taping him- but I might start. My neighbors said he doesn't make a peep after I leave (which is a good sign, because you would think he would cry and howl usually). I'm at my wits end on this... I'm getting ready to leave him with someone during the day (which I am scared to do, because tbh, I don't really trust people with my dog.... Long story pertaining to an old dog of mine- may she rest in peace).
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:22 PM
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Dogs DO have emotions, I've seen a dog get mad for an owner petting another dog, and walked up next to him and peed.
I didn't say dogs don't have emotions. I said they aren't capable of being vindictive. It requires a much higher thought process. Your example above is easily explained by natural dog behaviour, not by a case of jealousy.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:23 PM
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yeah, i second that. do you kennel at all then you are home??

-ash
Yeah... When he is sleepy, I put him in his crate with the door open. He will almost immediately wake up and go lay on the couch. No matter how many treats I give him, or padded surfaces, or praise I give him.... He hates that crate.

They always say boxers think they're humans- I second that.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:24 PM
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I didn't say dogs don't have emotions. I said they aren't capable of being vindictive. It requires a much higher thought process. Your example above is easily explained by natural dog behaviour, not by a case of jealousy.
A dog who can open up round door knobs and turn on water faucets has a big enough thought process to pee out of spite.

I've seen it done several times, and I worked at a vet for 2 years.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:33 PM
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You may want to try this...rather than feeding him while you're in the shower, stuff a few kongs with his food. Pack it in really well and add peanut butter to cover the large hole. This will keep your pup busy and his mind active. If he's too quick to get out the kibble, mix some peanut butter into it, stuff the Kong, and freeze for a few hours before giving it to him. You want to start this off while you're at home, on weekends for example. Leave the room for several minutes while he's really into it gradually increasing the time. It's a good idea for him to practice quiet time and associate good experiences with his crate while you're at home as well as while you're away.

Not all separation anxiety expresses itself with howling and barking. With milder forms, it can just be the dog salivates frequently, breathes rapidly/pants, is physically agitated (turns in circles in his crate/is unable to settle), chews his paws or nails, urinates and/or defacates, etc., etc.. His peeing due to anxiety is out of his control. The only thing you can do is to teach him to become more independant and secure...with patience, practice, consistence, and praise at the right time.

You may find this article helpful...

http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/dog_l...ep_anxiety.pdf

Hiring a responsible, reputable dog-walker might be to your best advantage as well.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:35 PM
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Hmmmm this is interesting:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Dogs-701/spiteful-dog.htm

I taught him commands, but I don't think I ever deliberately established dominance over him. Maybe he thinks he is boycotting his crate.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:40 PM
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You may find this article helpful...

http://www.sfspca.org/behavior/dog_l...ep_anxiety.pdf

Hiring a responsible, reputable dog-walker might be to your best advantage as well.
That article rocks.

My dog gets bored with kongs after about an hour- no matter how much food is in there (he'd rather play with a water bottle, lol).... But I do stuff it with peanut butter and broken up treats when I leave.

We're working on the separation anxiety... This dog has it the worst out of ANY dog I've ever had (then again, none of the others were boxers, and apparently boxers are VERY prone to SA). Maybe once I get that resolved, he'll mellow out.

He used to pee every time my boyfriend kissed me (until he fell in love with my boyfriend- now he's cool)... That's why I was thinking it was spiteful, lol.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 02:53 PM
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If you can pick up a copy of "I'll Be Home Soon" by Patricia McConnell (avialable at Amazon I think, I got my copy from ebay), you'll find it much more effective than the techniques found in the link of the link you provided (Monks of New Skete...even they had to edit their original book because "dominating" a dog can actually be detrimental...."Leadership" rather than dominance is the key to a healthy relationship between a dog and his/her owner). The Other End Of The Leash, by the same author is another invaluable book that will teach you to better understand dogs' behaviour and the relationship humans have with their dogs...

http://books.google.ca/books?id=rg3sAAAACAAJ

Your pup does indeed sound like a bright fellow. Have you thought of enrolling yourselves in obedience (positive re-inforcement methods of course) training, flyball, etc.? You may find that you'll both enjoy it immensely and satisfy his needs for positive stimulation.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 03:04 PM
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I took him to "intermediate" obedience training- he already knew everything they were teaching.

The crate part is the only issue... He's perfect with everything else.

(He even finds my keys in the morning haha)

I think I'm going to start leaving him with a neighbor (hopefully she is good with him- as I said before, I am REALLY reticent to do that).

He's always really well behaved when I leave him with my parents or my boyfriend... I'm telling you- he just hates that crate. Doesn't matter if I lay down next to him and stuff it full of treats... He cries when I'm there if I try putting him in there with the door closed... If the door is open he'll leave immediately, and when I leave he pees in it!

I think maybe I should try leaving him in the house alone and slowly start building up the amount of time (10 mins, then 20, then 40, then an hour, etc etc).

As I said, I've always trained all my dogs... I've NEVER had this issue with any of them.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 03:06 PM
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Hmmmm this is interesting:

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Dogs-701/spiteful-dog.htm

I taught him commands, but I don't think I ever deliberately established dominance over him. Maybe he thinks he is boycotting his crate.
A word of caution when you're searching for info/advice/solutions over the internet....there are many methods used for training dogs, unfortunately just as many are outdated and have proven to be quite ineffective, and sometimes dangerous, with most dogs.

Brenda Aloff, Turid Rugaas, Patricia McConnell, Jean Donaldson, Cheryl Smith, Ian Dunbar are some of my favorite authors/behaviorists that use a positive method approach in understanding and training dogs. If you liked the article I already posted a link to, then you'll love any of the books by the above authors.
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Old February 29th, 2008, 03:10 PM
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I think maybe I should try leaving him in the house alone and slowly start building up the amount of time (10 mins, then 20, then 40, then an hour, etc etc).

As I said, I've always trained all my dogs... I've NEVER had this issue with any of them.

That sounds like a good place to start. Rather than having a neighbor watch him all day, how about just asking them to take him for a walk and playtime for an hour or so perhaps once or twice while you're out? I suggest this because he will still need to learn how to cope when alone.

Just like not two children are alike, there are no two dogs alike. I have three...and I couldn't have found three more different personalities if I tried.
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