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  #1  
Old February 28th, 2008, 02:03 AM
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Lightbulb Raw and cancer, new kid

Hi,
I'm new, I'm visiting from the Dog Cancer forum which I've had the misfortune of posting to for moral support frequently since my little italian greyhound mix was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. The good news is she (a 20 pound dog) had a 2 pound spleen removed with no other organ involvement and she's doing fabulously 5 weeks post surgery. Since surgery she's on a completely raw diet. I'm just going with my instinct.. she's getting Variety brand raw medallions and raw chicken with bones, beef (with bones) and eggs. If I can find anything else I'll give her that and I"m hunting a source of green tripe since I'm hearing so much about it. I'm not being very scientific about the feeding, however she really looks fabulous. My reason for coming here, besides learning more about feeding raw is to try and see if those of you who feed raw are experiencing less cancer than those who feed cooked, commercial, kibble, etc. Most folks on the Dog Cancer forum are just learning about healthier diets but few, if any, I might be the only one.. are feeding raw. In fact I got into a discussion with a vet on the forum whose claim is that feeding raw is very dangerous due to pathogens picked up at slaughter houses. So I'm interested in what anyone has to say regarding raw diet and cancer frequency.

Last edited by marko; February 28th, 2008 at 08:54 AM.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:32 AM
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There is a thread here with some info about Green Tripe http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=49114

Have a look through the raw forum you'll find lots of info

To change your screen name, since you can't pm yet, you can email Marko our admin - info@pets.ca

Good luck w/your little girl we would love to see pics which you can add after posting a bit.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:57 AM
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hi it's me again.. I reregistered with a new username, my girl's name. I'd love to post pictures of her but I have very few because she's afraid of cameras!!! silly greyhound! I probably have one of her running away from the camera.. she's beautiful.

I guess I'll read these raw posts for a while to see if cancer topics come up.. so far I've seen a few other health issues but no cancer. On the dog cancer forum they say the cancer rate in dogs is fifty percent once they reach the age of 2. It's ridiculous. I think it's because so many people feed commercial food. I don't think the rate is fifty percent here on this raw diet thread. That's very interesting.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 03:01 AM
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Welcome to pets.ca and sorry to her about your little girl.

I think more and more people are slowly starting to realize that raw is best to feed for dogs with cancer. If not raw then definitely a grain free kibble.

You can buy canned green tripe at most pet stores that carry the premium/holistic dog foods. Trippett and Solid Gold are well known brands.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 03:07 AM
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how does the canned compared nutritionally to the fresh or frozen? Do they actually leave the grass in the tripe?
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Old February 28th, 2008, 03:17 AM
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OK here she is slinking away when I tried to get a picture of her in her little cheerleading sweater!
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Old February 28th, 2008, 07:20 AM
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Exclamation

good morning!

It's cold here in north florida! there's frost on the pumpkin-- echhh!!

I put a diet/cancer poll over on the pet recipe thread. I'd sure appreciate if ya'll would wander over there and click on the appropriate button.. I realize we've got mostly raw feeders here.. hopefully some non-raw folks will answer the poll too.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 07:23 AM
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Question

there are some great quotations here.. Rainbow I love yours.. makes me want to cry. I love the one somethink like: if the bottom falls out of your world go to the can and let the world fall out of your bottom.. I don't see where you add signatures...
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Old February 28th, 2008, 08:21 AM
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you think rainbows is enough to make you cry, check out a few of the others!! welcome to pets.ca! and the world of raw feeding.

diet unquestionably contributes to cancer. Cyberkitty, a local cancer doc (of children none the less) might be able to tell you more about that. considering we (dogs and people) are all carbon based life forms, -mammals to boot- would suggest many of the same basic concepts of cancer would apply.

http://www.who.int/dietphysicalactiv...cts/cancer/en/

Quote:
High intake of preserved meat or red meat might be associated with increased risk of colorectal cancer.
http://www.gopetsamerica.com/dog-hea...aq.aspx#grains

check out those sites, do some hunting around on the net for what to feed and what not to. a quick glace around suggests that red meats may contribute (possibly due to all of the hormones in it??) and that omega's help fight it or prevent it. so this would suggest to me to stay away from beef and other red meats and really up the fishy/eggy foods and supplement omega and also look into foods with high antioxidants.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

do a search for chicken liver, raw.

this is a great source for the raw meat's nutritional content but you wont find meat in bone. i found a site a few months ago... bookmarked it and now cant find it- that listed the different meats with the bone in. ill look a little harder a little later tonight.

when feeding raw, think whole prey. there is far more to feeding an animal than just bones and muscle! look towards feeding organs too. the usual ratio is 10% bones, 10% organs (with 5% of that being liver) and 80% muscle. if you can find a source of fish with the organs still in, perhaps other small game with the organs still in to make sure she is getting a source of lung, stomach(tripe), heart, pancreas, ect. i would suggest upping the liver a bit because of its nutritional value.

to say again, i dont know jack about cancer (even human) but a cursory glance says totally cut out grains, probably cut out red meat, feed a little more liver and lots more fish and egg for omegas. i would also wager that going organic would be a good idea. they have no pesticides, hormones and are also fed an appropriate diet. FYI chicken is not allowed to have antibiotics or hormones administered (in the USA).

another thing you may want to look into is coconut oil.

keep us posted on her progress!! and get some pictures up!! did you email marko abotu your other name?? he may want to delete it.

-ashley
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Old February 28th, 2008, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
It's cold here in north florida! there's frost on the pumpkin-- echhh!!
frack!!! its pretty cold here in NC too!!!

-ashley
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Old February 28th, 2008, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiOurs View Post
good morning!

It's cold here in north florida! there's frost on the pumpkin-- echhh!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by want4rain View Post
frack!!! its pretty cold here in NC too!!!

-ashley
Wussses!

I don't have any experience with raw, tiOurs, but I wanted to welcome you to the board and wish you all the best with your pretty girl!
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Old February 28th, 2008, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by want4rain View Post

check out those sites, do some hunting around on the net for what to feed and what not to. a quick glace around suggests that red meats may contribute (possibly due to all of the hormones in it??) and that omega's help fight it or prevent it. so this would suggest to me to stay away from beef and other red meats and really up the fishy/eggy foods and supplement omega and also look into foods with high antioxidants.
I'm a bit confused by this, are you saying that excessive intake of red meat has
been linked to cancer in humans and then extending that to dogs?
I was under the impression that including some red meat was important in a raw diet
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Old February 28th, 2008, 10:35 AM
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Originally Posted by pitgrrl View Post
I'm a bit confused by this, are you saying that excessive intake of red meat has
been linked to cancer in humans and then extending that to dogs?
I was under the impression that including some red meat was important in a raw diet
heck if i know. i dont know ANYTHING at all about cancer other than basic common knowledge. in the wild dogs wouldnt bring down a cow... if i had to make some really uneducated leaps of whatever, id say the problem with red meat would be that most human consumed red meat is cow, cows are full of junk, junk has been suggested to cause cancer....

this is what Wiki says about it-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_meat#Cancer

im a-shrugging away over here.

-ashley
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Old February 28th, 2008, 10:42 AM
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I think the one thing we all have to notice is that the cancer rate in dogs and cats is HUGE and most eat a fully processed, chemically-treated food.

I also think that since the cancer rate in PEOPLE is going up, probably proportionally (is that even a word?) to our intake of processed foods, we should be taking notice. What I mean by that is the more processed foods people eat, the more cancers we seem to get.

If dogs + processed food = high cancer rate, and people + processed foods = increasing cancer rate... I wonder if the processed food is related?

Just my paranoid ramblings as I eat my processed deli meats for lunch!
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Old February 28th, 2008, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by tiOurs View Post
I guess I'll read these raw posts for a while to see if cancer topics come up.. so far I've seen a few other health issues but no cancer. On the dog cancer forum they say the cancer rate in dogs is fifty percent once they reach the age of 2. It's ridiculous. I think it's because so many people feed commercial food.
I do know that Science Diet and their prescription brands like c/d, etc. still use carcinogenic preservatives like BHA and ethoxyquin. In fact, I work with dogs and one of ours, Demeter, has "food allergies" (we all know what that usually means) and is fed z/d. I checked the side of the bag yesterday, and sure enough, BHA and ethoxyquin were listed among the ingredients.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 12:09 PM
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we decided to go organic or all natural (ie only natural preservatives like citric acid and rosemary and such) 3 years ago. no fast foods, i make what i can from home (spaghetti sauce, mac&cheese, pies, soft granola bars, etc) or buy it local.... there is a lady who makes pasta and its soooooo good!!! fresh or dried, super yummy. she has some funky looking pastas she makes that are just out of this world. im raaaaaambling.... im one of those ladies who will spend time reading lables, if i dont knwo what it is i will write it down and take it home and look it up!! buying fresh local produce is also quite rewarding. as is growing your own (and its cheaper that way too!). thankfully im a stay at home mom so that gives me the chance to really explore our different options.

i asked around a few of the doctors in the area and they all (5 or 6 of them) eat organic or all natural or local. figured it might be a good idea.

-ash
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:08 PM
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So I found this, it's just a small quote, but is more along the lines of things I've read or heard:

William Pollak D.V.M. -
Quote:
"Processed foods and drugs have seriously depleted the natural vitality and immune systems of many pets. Whereas large amounts of red meat can cause cancer in humans, a lack of RAW red meat in an animal's diet can lead to serious health problems. Animals require the enzymes, amino acids and other nutrients in the raw meat in order to stay healthy.
http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/animals.htm
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:11 PM
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Welcome tiOurs! This forum is the absolute best! so much info and knowledge here! Also, welcome to the world of raw!

I've been feeding my two dogs raw food since August 07 and it was the best switch I've ever made. I also thought I was well researched, but I seemed to have learned to much more forum. I already posted this story on different thread, but I switched to a raw diet becuase my dog was diagnosed with Hip Dysplasia and I was searching for anything that will make her healthy, not only in weight, but her overall well being. Thatís how I came across raw diet. It made sense to me, so I tried it. I know a raw diet cant help cure something like HD, but after a little over a week of feeding her raw, she was no longer nipping at her hips. Before she would nip at them all day long, especially when we would walk her. Also, I donít know if it was the diet, the vitamins I started giving her or a combination of all, but she is so much healthier. Her coat is shinier, she doesnít have as much of a hard time getting up from a seated position, her body is toned, she has great energy and so much more. To me, putting her on a raw diet is worth it when we look at her and how much she has changed just from last August.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 01:59 PM
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right, Wiki said some little blurb about COOKED red meat being the problem, which obviously wouldnt impact a raw fed dogs diet. (i love this little face and never get a chance to use it!!!)

-ashley
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:31 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
those of you who feed raw are experiencing less cancer than those who feed cooked, commercial, kibble, etc
How tragic to hear of your little girl, but at the same time, however wonderful that to date you've been able to treat her and keep her with you. That's already such a tremendous achievement.

It's more than difficult to speculate whether or not raw feeding helps cancer in any way no more so, than proper nutrition in a human would. Raw feeding does not promise to extend the life of dogs, if anyone tells you that, they are gravely mistaken. Raw feeding represents a healthy way of living the way Mother Nature intended.

Unfortunately there are too many mitigating factors which can govern the outcome of cancer in any dog, most of them genetic or environmental, which includes / over vaccination policies and the extensive use of absorable flear/tick type pesticides.

Certainly feeding raw leads to wellness all across the board, but outside of mastcell cancer which is highly genetic, I think that most experts will agree that cancer in dogs is more likely an environment issue, more so than anything else right now. It's really sad to see.

At least by feeding her raw you certainly reduce the overall stress on her body and certainly help eliminate any ingested contagens or contaminants for additives in commercial kibble which could harm her, although commercial raw may also contain unwanted additives so you may want to check what's in your package of meat.

Are you on any type of protocol for her cancer?
There are a great many things you can do, even holistically if you like which can certainly help boost her immune system.

Best
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Old February 28th, 2008, 02:40 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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those of you who feed raw are experiencing less cancer than those who feed cooked, commercial, kibble, etc
Unless you eat certified organic meats, Red meats usually always contain high amounts of antibiotics, pesticides, and steroids. It is those products contained in the meats that contribute to cancer and other illnesses.

You may find this site interesting (for a variety of reasons)
http://www.meat.org/
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Old February 28th, 2008, 05:21 PM
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I know a raw diet cant help cure something like HD, but after a little over a week of feeding her raw, she was no longer nipping at her hips. Before she would nip at them all day long, especially when we would walk her.
OxyMK: Glucosamine and chondroitin supplements can help to ease the grinding between joints in problems like arthritis and hip displasia. Trachea is a good natural source of chondroitin, and fun for your dog to chew on. My local pet food depot sells them pre-packaged from a company called Free Range. The treats are a variety of different lamb parts, called Baa! treats.
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Old February 28th, 2008, 06:16 PM
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Thanks, JulesMichy. I have been giving Oxford Glucosamine/Chondroitin tablets for about 6-7 months now and she seems to be doing good. I also read that Ester-C has been found to help dogs with HD. I just started to give it to her. I figured its worth a shot. I know we are probably go ahead with the surgery, but we have to wait until we have enough money saved up. So in the mean time, we keep her on a raw diet, give her vitimins, keep her weight down, excercise her (without over doing it), amongst other things.

These dogs really are the world to us, huh?
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Old February 28th, 2008, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Ester-C
Actually unless you have a young puppy with osteo problems, Vitamin C should be avoided at all costs, as it acts as an inhibitor and stops or alters the absorption of essential vitamins and minerals.


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Old February 28th, 2008, 09:07 PM
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MerlinsHope, is there any documentation you can refer me to so that I can read up on that?
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Old February 29th, 2008, 04:38 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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There are some 'soft' articles which relay snerps of studies at sites such as :
http://www.petplace.com/dogs/dangers...ogs/page1.aspx
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/art...i?artid=444845
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/501447_4

Vitamin C is a well known inhibitor. This is nothing new.
(the same way in which Vitamin C inhibits bacterial activity, it can also inhibit bio molecular activity which could be considered beneficial to dogs.)
1994, the New England Journal of Medicine
But you can probably download the actual study from Pfzier at MED Docs/ (it's not free)
The study was done both on dogs and on guinea pigs.

Bruce N. Ames, Ph.D., of the University of California, Berkeley
Balz Frei, Ph.D., director of the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University, Corvallis
1997 study demonstrating the Vitamin C alters DNA and can cause gene damage. (I don't have a source for a printed version of that study sorry, you'd have to contact Berkeley)

You can pick up a lower costing version at
http://k9joy.com/dogarticles/#linkaccess

I believe the dispensing of vitamin C was first started by breeders who gave doses to lactating bitches and then used amongst the GSD breeders for puppies who display symptoms be being down in the pasterns. However, the moment the condition was corrected, the vitamin C was stopped to avoid any potential issues.

Unlike humans and guinea pigs, a healthy dog synthesises it's own vitamin C, so essentially the use of it as a supplement is redundant say some.
There are always risks involved when we dispense additives and supplements to our dogs.

Essentially it's always a trade off. By treating arthritis with vitamin C, you may be causing another potential problem down the road due to the inhibition of any needed minerals or nutrients. Vitamin C is a paramount apparently, if your dog is bitten by a snake. It helps inhibit absorption of venom.

Personally I find that many people subscribe to supplements all too quickly without understanding or considering the biological and chemical consequences.
Most people have a tendency to automatically equate their dog's needs to those of a human, and of course, this is not a sound approach.

Merlin
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; February 29th, 2008 at 05:11 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old February 29th, 2008, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Vitamin C is a paramount apparently, if your dog is bitten by a snake. It helps inhibit absorption of venom.
got some more info on that??? dosing? we have several poisonous snakes that live here (and we see regularly), couple that with the part time creek in the back yard.... needless to say the kids are ALWAYS SUPERVISED and quite educated as to what to do in the situation of finding one....

anyways i digress.... my sisters father lost her dog to a snake bite here. drought conditions bring them to outdoor dog bowls and such. maybe ill start another thread.... hmmmm....

-ashley
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Old February 29th, 2008, 12:49 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Snakebite issues - you can read a fairly good rendition of the study done by Dr Wendell Bellfield, in California and snake bite issues. The text actually carries some testimonials from people who's dogs have suffered snake bites.
It's probably very credible since as mentioned "C" is an inhibitor!

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/HEALTH/vitc.htm
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Old February 29th, 2008, 05:43 PM
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I am so very sorry to hear of this type of cancer. It is as you know more common in dogs than in cats. Have you completed chemo (doxorubicin or another med or a combo?) with the surgery? I am glad she is doing well!! Bravo for her and for you!!I only know of this site of a dog who had this type of cancer and had this diet and it is listed on the site. In your shoes, I would communicate with Ginger's person and found out if they felt the diet was helfpful and what they would do do differently? And I would read as much as I could on research. As a hematologist, I have a plethora of info but alas, it is mainly on humans.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and Ginger!!
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Old February 29th, 2008, 07:47 PM
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tiOurs tiOurs is offline
junior but opinionated
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Florida
Posts: 24
I'm very fortunate to know and work with a chinese traditional vet who's world renowned; he teaches vets from all over the world acupuncture, herbs and other tcvm stuff at his clinic near here in north florida. He's fabulous. My girl is on herbs from him. I worked at the vet school for a while and observed, as I also observed from the canine cancer forum that the success rate using chemo is abysmal. In addition I just didn't want to put my girl through that and it has never made sense to me to use chemo that suppresses the immune system when it's already not functioning correctly. My mother made the decision with her colon cancer and lymphoma to just have surgery and no chemo or radiation. That was almost 10 years ago and she's been very healthy since, with no chemo sickness. No matter what happens at this point I don't think there's any question that she made the right decision. So based on that and what I've observed elsewhere I've stayed away from western type cancer therapies.

I'm thrilled with how good tiOurs looks 6 weeks post surgery (today) on the raw diet and herbs. She very lively, she beats the daylights out of her big brother in play, she runs with me, she's gained muscle and fat and her coat feels softer and glossier than I ever remember it feeling. Funny she grabbed a mole out of the ground the other day and I thought she was going to eat it and I was thrilled--some real prey! but she didn't, she just mouthed it a bit and left it so I was left feeling terrible for mr mole.

It's interesting. Maybe it's just a feeling but I don't hear anyone on this forum mentioning all their pets that have died of cancer. I've lost almost seventy five percent of my pets; dogs, cats and a chicken to cancer in the last 10 years and if you go on the cancer forum website many people there have lost multiple pets to cancer. are you guys here on this website just not talking about it here? or is there something we're doing wrong that you're not telling us??

I've never gotten into using these little smiley faces but they are sort of cute, aren't they?

well it's good to meet ya'll. If you want to feel very lucky go hang out on the dog cancer forum for a while.. it's horribly sad. everyone there is dealing with one or more dogs with cancer. http://www.dogcancer.net/forum/
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