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Old February 19th, 2008, 10:43 AM
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Extraneous toenails on face?

I'm happy to say that I saw these threads a while back so this did not freak me out as much as it would have otherwise:

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=31515

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=21108

Brier appears to have toenails growing on his cheek under his left eye.

About two weeks ago, I accidently bumped him in the face and he yelped. When I checked the spot, I saw what looked like a very lumpy black scab, so I figured he'd been tusslin' with someone and gotten injured. But it looked clean, so I left it. It's easy to miss because the black scab blends in so well with his other spots, so I forgot about it.

Yesterday, though, I was cleaning away an eye goober and felt the spot again. By now, if it were a scab, it should be loose and crumbling and ready to fall off. But it was hard and seemed larger.

When I looked at it, I saw this:

Name:  Brier's growth 2-19-08.jpg
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Size:  60.9 KB

See it there, just to the E of that largish lower black spot?
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Last edited by hazelrunpack; February 19th, 2008 at 11:19 AM.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 10:47 AM
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Whatever it is is hard like a nail, curves like a nail, is growing as fast as the rest of Brier's nails, and actually has a bit of a gloss to it like a nail has.

Hubby thinks it's just an irritated histiocytoma with a large scab, but when I first saw it, it had one lump...it now has split into a cluster of two.

Brier is going in on Saturday to have it looked at. Anyone want to take any bets as to whether the vet thinks mutant nails, histiocytoma or something else?

Here's some other shots to help you place your bets:

Name:  Brier's extra nails 2-19-08.jpg
Views: 1377
Size:  87.5 KB

Name:  Extra nails on Brier's face 2-19-08.jpg
Views: 1390
Size:  50.1 KB

Name:  Extraneous nails on Brier's face 2-19-08.jpg
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Size:  61.4 KB

(And I'll bet you guys thought I was kidding. )
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Old February 19th, 2008, 10:57 AM
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sorry to say that is very very wierd..

never saw anything like that before.. but it does blend in with his black spots!!

If it is a toenail do you think the vet will cut it?? can you cut it?? does it grow??

ooo a "sabertooth Brier" one of a kind at Hazelrunpack's place..
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:04 AM
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Yeah, I think you just keep it trimmed. There isn't a quick in it--just the outer keratin husk. One of the posters in the other threads mentioned that a border collie had one on its neck and another on its tail that eventually just fell off and the skin reverted to normal

If it turns out that it is easily irritated and gets bloody when he's going through underbrush or tall grass, though, we'll likely have to have it removed. I'm hoping it'll just go away

Or that it turns out to be a histiocytoma--because they do resolve on their own. (But then hubby will be able to say "I told you so." )
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:12 AM
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For your sake I hope it just goes away!!

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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:21 AM
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Me, too! Not to mention hazel, madame hazel and "Two Dogs Facing Off" have all their , toes crossed, and crossed s! We're stumbling around like we've gotten into the catnip....
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:38 AM
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the only thing I can cross is my toes, cause if I cross my figures and eyes I won't be able to work

so toesw will have to do but I could send you and a
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Old February 19th, 2008, 12:27 PM
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omg that is sooo freaky !!!! weird !

oh oh I know what it is , it's Brier's twin trying to get out

it's not funny :sad:
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Old February 19th, 2008, 12:37 PM
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Are you maybe thinking that it's Brier's alternate personalities breaking free? Oh, no! hazel's craziness has rubbed off on her boy!
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Old February 19th, 2008, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hazelrunpack View Post
Are you maybe thinking that it's Brier's alternate personalities breaking free? Oh, no! hazel's craziness has rubbed off on her boy!
omg Hazel , did you ask hubby to inspect you ? Just in case Madame Hazel would like to come out ?

So if this is a nail , they will have to do surgery on it ? But nails grow out of tiny bone , how can he have a tiny bone in his cheeck .... this is so weird !
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Old February 19th, 2008, 12:52 PM
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It wouldn't be a full nail--just the hard outer layer. I believe the keratin sheath is made by cells in the skin, just as skin cells are made. A small mutation occurs et voila! You get aberrant nail sheaths. There isn't a quick. According to what's posted in the other thread, you keep them clipped close to the skin to prevent too much irritation and hope they eventually fall off .

hazel's not gonna be doing any clipping till the vet tells us for sure what it is, though.

(We've been looking for eruptions of madame hazel but haven't found any yet! )
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Old February 19th, 2008, 12:53 PM
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That is a LOT of cool weirdness!!!

Never heard of that before, but glad I have now. If I ever found a nail somewhere strange on our dogs I would FREAK, but now that I know that this can happen I wouldn't be so worried about it.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 12:58 PM
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hubby still thinks I'm nuts... He may be right.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 01:21 PM
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Do you think it hurts when it grows??

does it bother his eye sight??
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Old February 19th, 2008, 01:32 PM
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Do you think it hurts when it grows??

does it bother his eye sight??
I think it's sensitive if it gets whacked, but otherwise he isn't pawing at it or scratching it, so I don't think it bothers him. And it's too far from his eye to interfere so it shouldn't bother his eyesight, either.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 01:40 PM
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Thumbs up And we have a name!!!

The vet called it 'hyperkeratosis'...now I gotta go look it up on the web.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 01:50 PM
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sigh...I don't see anything similar to what Brier has, so there must be more to it than "hyperkeratosis"...
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Old February 19th, 2008, 04:28 PM
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Oh wow you know that is alll too weird.... I dunno what to say about it maybe it's a a a a alien or a parasitic twin that didn't develop man thats odd.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 08:02 PM
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sigh...I don't see anything similar to what Brier has, so there must be more to it than "hyperkeratosis"...

I didn't find anything either. What did your vet say to do for it?
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Old February 19th, 2008, 10:44 PM
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I didn't find anything either. What did your vet say to do for it?
The vet had just called hubby to give him Ridge's lepto titer results and hubby took the opportunity to ask him if he'd ever heard of such a thing. Dr Kevin just gave him the name and didn't seem to think it was a big deal, and hubby didn't ask him what you do about them... Brier has an appointment Saturday--he'll tag along for Ridge's nose check. We're still not sure if it's the nail thing or a really weird histiocytoma.

It may turn out we don't have to do anything about them--the longer of the two whatever they are got knocked off in a wrestling match shortly before dinner. It doesn't look nearly as impressive now.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:24 PM
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http://www.histiocytosis.ucdavis.edu/reactive.html




Nodular lesions and alopecia affect the skin AND the visible ocular and nasal mucosae are involved. Note the chemosis in the conjunctiva and corneal edema. The nasal apex is swollen and depigmented; there is a crusty nasal discharge and the dog had stertorous respiration indicating infiltration and swelling of the internal nasal mucosa.



After treatment with thymosin (6 weeks). Modern immunosuppressive drugs (Leflunomide or cyclosporin) have achieved more consistent and better responses







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cutaneous histiocytosis (CH) is a histiocytic proliferative disorder that primarily involves skin and s ubcutis and does not extend beyond the local draining lymph nodes. CH occurs in a number of breeds. Evidence of spread beyond the skin would invoke the diagnosis of SH, a closely related disorder. Lymphadenopathy has not been emphasized in published reports, and has only been documented in a small number of our cases. The lesions occur as multiple cutaneous and subcutaneous nodules up to 4 cm diameter. They may may disappear spontaneously, or regress and appear at new sites simultaneously. Topographically lesions may be found on the face, ears, nose, neck, trunk, extremities (including foot pads), perineum and scrotum.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:26 PM
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First Ridge's nose now this weird thing. I wonder if there is some sort of correlatiion??? Possibly I dunno?
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:29 PM
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I saw something similar to that, too, Luba. Was sort of scary till I came across a reference that said that histiocytomas were not related to histiocytosis. Whew! The histiocytosis page I found didn't show the pics, though--man that looks awful, doesn't it?
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:30 PM
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First Ridge's nose now this weird thing. I wonder if there is some sort of correlatiion??? Possibly I dunno?
I think Brier's weirdness is different than Ridge's , but we're wondering if the onset of leptospirosis had anything to do with Ridge's folliculitis. Lepto can cause some pretty weird skin lesions.
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:40 PM
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Maybe Brier's face clawed Ridge's nose

No really I know it's NOT funny... so I"m reading the wrong stuff...hmmm

So the 'cytoma' is more of a wart type lesion then? My terrier used to get those all the time on his face for years prior to developing cancer so be careful. If the vet removes it ask them to send it to pathology to be safe. You just never know.

The lepto vaccine you had didn't cover the strain of lepto that Ridge was exposed to huh? I've heard that a few times over and over. Anything like that weakens the immune system to let anything else flourish.

How is the shnozola looking now? Pretty good?All purdy like normal?
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Old February 19th, 2008, 11:52 PM
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Very strange indeed!

Did you find the piece that came off from the wrestling match? If so I'd bring that into show the vet
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Old February 20th, 2008, 08:40 AM
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Maybe Brier's face clawed Ridge's nose

No really I know it's NOT funny...

I thought it was pretty funny!

So the 'cytoma' is more of a wart type lesion then? My terrier used to get those all the time on his face for years prior to developing cancer so be careful. If the vet removes it ask them to send it to pathology to be safe. You just never know.

Yeah, they're fairly common, especially in younger dogs...at least at our house Very vascular, so they bleed easily. Our vets always send them out for pathology exams when they're removed, cuz you're right--you just never do know! Supposedly, cytomas resolve by themselves, but we've never been able to leave them long enough to do that. Our dogs are so active, the cytomas always get scraped and bleed, so we have them removed.

The lepto vaccine you had didn't cover the strain of lepto that Ridge was exposed to huh? I've heard that a few times over and over. Anything like that weakens the immune system to let anything else flourish.

Actually, the vaccine did cover the strains Ridge is fighting--same for the other dogs. The problem appears to be that the new, safer vaccination peaks at 6 months, then the protection falls off. We're wrestling with the decision on whether to up their vaccination to twice a year like they do in cattle... At least the symptoms were very, very mild--probably attributable to the immunity boost from the vaccine.

Of the five strains of lepto commonly seen in our area, all of the Pack members we've run titers on have had exposure to the same subset of four. Although the symptoms were either mild or unnoticeable, all the titers more than doubled upon second test (except Ridge's, cuz we just had her done for the first time--but even hers were above the 800 level.) Because the titers were rising so rapidly, we opted for treatment.


How is the shnozola looking now? Pretty good?All purdy like normal?
It is looking so much better! She'll have some scarring, and likely the skin will always get scraped easily, but there's hair growing back over almost the entire affected area

Quote:
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Very strange indeed!

Did you find the piece that came off from the wrestling match? If so I'd bring that into show the vet
I wish. I saw it dangling when he was on his way up the deck stairs, but by the time we got to the door, it had fallen off. The second one is still there, though--quite hard, but not long enough to show the curved growth. Now that the long piece is gone, it does look more like an irritated histiocytoma. hubby is already doing his victory dance and practicing his "I told ya so"s, but madame hazel is still holding out for the extraneous nail theory...and she has a crystal ball, y'know Yeah, but hazel! Her crystal ball is always wrong!
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Old February 20th, 2008, 02:22 PM
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That's just like a bubbly hubbly
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Old February 20th, 2008, 02:24 PM
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I have to say that is a little grody lookin... I hope it just falls off and you don't have to fuss with it!
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Old February 20th, 2008, 04:12 PM
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My dog had that...vet put him on Meds and it eventually went away...apparently its more common in males than females...meh
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