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Old January 28th, 2008, 12:20 AM
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Myka's transition to Raw

Hey all. I have had the Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog book since it first came out in 2000. I'm looking to finally change my dog over to raw after humming and hawing about it since just before I bought that book. Really, I'm just scared to do it, that I won't do it right, and it will be more detrimental than feeding her kibble.

She's been on Nutro's Natural Choice Large Breed Adult for years. When she was a pup I tried lots of different foods from expensive (Ebo Innova, Solid Gold, etc) to semi-cheap (like Nutro/Nutrience). She seemed to do the best on Nutro's so that's what we stuck with.

Anywho...I've searched on this forum looking for details on what people are feeding, and all I'm getting is info on raw meats. Surely you guys are feeding more than just meats...? I'd like to try the diet in the above mentioned book, but it is very detailed, and has a lot of different ingredients. I cook once a week for myself, and I cook enough to last all week. So in all honesty I just won't manage to do that intense diet in that book. I don't feel comfortable "just winging it", so I'd really like to find a diet recipe that is veterinary dietician recommended. Any recommendations?

Cheers!
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Last edited by Myka; January 28th, 2008 at 08:33 PM. Reason: had the wrong kibble listed
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Old January 28th, 2008, 01:52 AM
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A great book to read that is easy to understand and quite basic is "the ultimate diet" by kymythy schultze. I personally feed mostly ground meat/bones plus some veggies and supplement with glucosamine and coconut oil. This is also quite a good link http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.com/ and here are a few good threads on the subject:
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread....light=raw+food
http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=36865
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Old January 28th, 2008, 07:34 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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I am a prey model feeder and only feed meats and fish and I have found that most successful. Many years ago when I hopped on the raw bandwagon I also did the ground food vegetable slurry stuff, and now many years later, we are far more educated about raw diets, and many of the pitfalls of pseudo raw diets, so I only practice prey model feeding, ( 80% meat /10% bone / 10% offal), meaning whole meats and carcass and fish and no supplements, roots or other non species specific foods, and certainly no fruits or vegetables other than green tripe. To date, hands down to me it is the ultimate way to correctly feed a dog or cat. You may want to visit www.rawmeatybones.com and read Dr. Tom Lonsdale's book.

I gave someone a sample menu just the other day

20 lb sharpei

2 chicken wings
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine


100 lb chow chow

1/4 chicken or 1/2 chicken
1 tblsp green tripe
1 mackerel (approx 12 inches long)
1 chicken liver, 1 heart


Tuesday
20 lb sharpei

1 tsp green tripe
1 large salmon tail
1 sardine
raw egg


100 lb chow chow
2 or 3 salmon heads
4 or 5 sardines
1 tblsp green tripe
raw egg

Wednesday
20 lb sharpei

beef or pork or lamb short rib
small piece beef lung or esphogus
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine


100 lb chow chow
beef or pork or lamb short ribs
medium piece beef lung
1 tblsp green tripe
4-5 sardines


Thursday
20 lb sharpei
2 small hunks mackerel( 1 cup)
1/4 cup chicken gizzards

100 lb chow chow
4 1/2 cups of mackerel hunks
1/2 cup chicken gizzards

Friday
FAST - recreational bones only, or pigs ears, tails or feet maybe a couple of eggs

Saturday
20 lb sharpei
1 chicken leg or rabbit haunch
1 tsp green tripe
1 sardine

100 lb chow chow

1/2 chicken or 1/2 rabbit
1 tblsp green tripe
3-4 sardines
1/4 cup chicken or pork gizzards


Nothing is ever written in stone with raw diets because too much depends on availability. It's just to try to give you an idea. The chicken could be pork or beef or lamb or beaver, or deer or rabbit, bison, moose, ... it all depends on what's on sale and on what we have access to that week or month. Also, please note that the above is geared to the age and activity level of those two specific dogs only. Menus can vary based on age, size and of course how active they are.

The one constant factor is the fatty fish. They get Omega fatty fish everyday.I also fast my dogs once a week. It's a big deal with sharpei because almost 100% of skin issues are caused by poor feeding practices which are easily remedied with RMB, so we have plenty of proof here at our rescue. All of our rescues now are raw fed. The advantages are just too great for us to ignore it now, and what we save in vet bills and skin ointments is very noticable. I've been feeding prey model raw for about 4 years now and I find it very successful.



If you found a good food that your dog is doing well on, why change? You can always supplement with some good , fresh, raw recreational bones to help your dog's teeth cleaning, and certainly add a sardine here and there or green tripe. There are now some very good commercial kibbles on the marketplace. To feed Raw properly, you have to be fairly committed to the diet, and to see results, you will have to stick with it for some time.

I was happy when you said: :"I don't feel comfortable "just winging it", - that's a very good approach, because you shouldn't 'dicker' with a raw diet or alternative diets without some sort of foundation or knowledge. In doing so, you could harm your dog instead of helping it. I'm a nutrition nut, study and work in that field, so raw makes perfect sense to me, and as I mentioned, given the breed we work with, raw diets and nutrional issues goes hand in hand, - BUT - I'll be the first to say, if you're doing ok now, don't change simply because it's a 'fad', or you're bored, or you simply 'think', you should be doing it. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with feeding a quality commercial kibble that your dog does well with. Why are you wanting to change? There is a saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Cheers
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; January 28th, 2008 at 08:28 AM.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 02:21 PM
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mostly just meats on this end. we also end up with about 10% of our 95lb lab mix's diet is.... whatever the kids throw on the floor. but to say, i make sure that what i feed him is enough to sustain him. at times thats barely (ie very little variety) due to finances but i believe what i give him is better than any of the hypoallergenic diets out there. ive posted a few times about my dogs and my cats weekly menu.

http://www.pets.ca/forum/showthread.php?t=48655

(MerlinsHope, would you mind posting your 'raw philosophy' in there?? ive been meanign to IM you back!)

-ash
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Old January 28th, 2008, 08:42 PM
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Wow! Thanks everyone for all the links and information!!

I'm not comfortable with a 100% meat diet. I know that coyotes and wolves eat quite a bit of "vegetarian" foods as well. I'm not really sure what they are eating, but simply by looking at coyote and wolf poop you can see that there is definately A LOT of non-meat foods in there. I would like to achieve as close to a "wild" diet as I can, as I'd like to believe this would be the best, but I would be very interested to know if domestic dogs' digestive systems have evolved differently than their wild counterparts...?

Now...to go read those links.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 09:04 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
I know that coyotes and wolves eat quite a bit of "vegetarian" foods as well.
I am curious to know how you arrive at your observation of wild canids eating vegetarian foods as a regular food item.

Are you familiar with the work of L. Robert Mec,(sp) the renowned biologist who studied wolves in the wild? He cites that fox, wolves, coyotes basically eat what is available. For them, meat is not always available. Given that they are not always successful in hunting down meat, hunger forces them to eat other types of food, not necessarily by choice, but by availability, and given the choice, they will always choose meat over any other type of food . Canids are not necessarily discerning eaters and when starving will eat almost anything including road kill and garbage not to mention their own feces. He also cites that just prior to consuming animal carcass, the stomach contents are shaken out and removed and not consumed at all. So to say that they eat 'quite a bit of vegetarian foods', is very questionable.

It has already been proven that there are no nutritional requirements of fruit and vegetables, or carbs in a diet for canines. You have to remember that the principal reason that people started to use vegetable matter in raw diets, was an attempt to ensure a more complete nutritional value in the diet, very much similar to how corn or soy is still used as a viable protein in commercial kibble. We all now know that many dogs react to corn very negatively and we also now know that vegetables can have a similar impact on a dog's digestive system and organs. There are now documented detrimental effects from some varieties of vegetables in a dog's diet ie: carrots cause bloody stools, greens carry too many oxylates or are too high in Vitamin A causing kidney and bladder crystals, fruits carry far to much sugar encouraging diabetes, candidae , rotten teeth, etc.

Nowadays it is possible to feed entire carcass so there is little need for supplementing with external foods.

Also, vegetables and fruits literally have to be 'juiced', not ground, or pureed, but "juiced", to have any nutritional effects as canines lack the enzymes necessary to break down cellulose.

As far as your question regarding a dog's digestive system, it is the very same system that existed 2000 years ago. It has not changed at all and is designed to process foods in approximately 4 hours. Kibble stays in the gut for up to 8 hours, however raw usually makes it through in 4 or less. Of course genetics plays a major role here too. Some dogs and breeds are far more sensitive to foreign foods than other breeds are.

Another thing to remember as well is that many of these books came out between 1999 and 2002. It's now 2008, almost 10 years later so many of the ideals in those books are very outdated. We know a lot more now then we did 8 years ago.

Thanks - food for thought.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 09:35 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Labs are great kitchen cleaners

Quote:
95lb lab mix's diet is.... whatever the kids throw on the floor. but to say,
Years ago we had a lab and she learned to sit right under the children's seats because she knew plenty of goodies would fall on the floor. Labs are the quintessential kitchen floor cleaners. That's for sure.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinsHope View Post
Years ago we had a lab and she learned to sit right under the children's seats because she knew plenty of goodies would fall on the floor. Labs are the quintessential kitchen floor cleaners. That's for sure.
I call my dog The Vacuum Cleaner.

Thanks for your post. Very informative. As I've been reading over the last hour I have learned a lot. Previously, my only knowledge of raw or homeprepared diets was from books......from 6-8 years ago! I have been wondering if that information is outdated.

I did say why I think that coyotes and wolves eat vegetarian foods well, but I will elaborate. I grew up on a hobby farm in a rural area with lost of bush/forest closeby. There were lots of coyotes, and the odd wolf (or six haha). The poop they left behind often had A LOT of vegetarian foods, in fact there were more vegetarian poops than carnivore poops. I suppose the theory that hunger drives them to eat vegetarian foods, but from the vegetarian coyote poop where I grew up you'd think that the coyotes were starving to death!

I'm still reading more...and learning that meat should make up a larger portion of the diet than I thought, but I have yet to completely banish the idea of adding a small amount of greens/grains or something of the like. When I say a small amount, I'm thinking like a few tbsp per week.

Being a person who takes a handful of "daily" suppliments several times a week, I have a hard time NOT putting suppliments into my dog's diet. Currently my dog just gets 1000mg glucosamine.
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Old January 28th, 2008, 11:13 PM
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the difference between a carnivorous coyotes poop and a vegetarian coyotes poop is the carnivorous one will be completely digested, the vegetarian poop will have obvious vegetables in it.

-ash
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Old January 29th, 2008, 05:54 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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I have to totally agree with WANT4RAIN. The reason you see the vegetables there in the stool is because they can't digest them.
Lucky you growing up on a farm. Not to many people can boast that these days. I'm jealous.

Quote:
I have a hard time NOT putting suppliments into my dog's diet.
I think we have to constantly remind our selves that our dogs are not humans.
They are different, their digestive system is different and their emotional and nutritional needs are different from ours.

We as humans can do possible damage to them when we impose our human values on to them, whether it be through food or behaviour. It was human values that brought us 'cheap' dog food in the first place and look at what that has done.

I think when we can look at them for what they are, and accept these differences, then adjust ourselves accordingly, we do right by them.

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Old January 29th, 2008, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinsHope View Post
I have to totally agree with WANT4RAIN. The reason you see the vegetables there in the stool is because they can't digest them.
Lucky you growing up on a farm. Not to many people can boast that these days. I'm jealous.

Quote:
I have a hard time NOT putting suppliments into my dog's diet.
I think we have to constantly remind our selves that our dogs are not humans.
They are different, their digestive system is different and their emotional and nutritional needs are different from ours.

We as humans can do possible damage to them when we impose our human values on to them, whether it be through food or behaviour. It was human values that brought us 'cheap' dog food in the first place and look at what that has done.

I think when we can look at them for what they are, and accept these differences, then adjust ourselves accordingly, we do right by them.


i dont know MerlinsHope, i kinda have to disagree with that. i dont think a change needs to be made in imposing our human values other than what WE call nutrition, being omnivores versus dogs being opportunistic carnivores but rather a change of mentality on how WE, as people, view nutrition.

supplements are just that, supplements. if you are feeding or eating enough of the RIGHT foods, you should never need supplements, dog or person. eating right is far far far more healthy on so many different levels than getting enough of or the right supplements.

im still on the fence as to the benefits of feeding grains, dairy, fruit and veggies myself. in our house its just more convenient to feed him our 'left overs' instead of having a fasting day. with as little as we waste here its just about a fasting day!! i doubt we will ever reach a point in Misters lifetime where he wont be eating nonmeat items. maybe afterwards when the kkids arent throwing things on the floor?

-ashley
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Old January 29th, 2008, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
It was human values that brought us 'cheap' dog food in the first place and look at what that has done.
to also say it was human values that brought us Fast Food.

-ash
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Old January 29th, 2008, 09:03 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Sames thing

Quote:
supplements are just that, supplements. if you are feeding or eating enough of the RIGHT foods, you should never need supplements, dog or person.
Absolutely correct. Please re-read what I said. You're essentially saying the same thing that I'm saying.

At the same time though, if we fail to recognize that dogs have different needs then we do, and insist that 'they', modify their health based on our needs as humans, and not on their needs, then, yes, of course we are imposing human values on our dogs.

A good example of this is the policy of feeding a dog once a day. Someone came up with that because they realized in doing so, the dog would only poop once a day. And of course, that makes perfect sense to some humans, primarily those who have an aversion to cleaning up after their dogs. The reality is that a dog would never force itself to only eat once a day in the wild or left to it's own devices. That is a classic example of imposing a human value on a dog. I can give you plenty more examples too.

Quote:
! i doubt we will ever reach a point in Misters lifetime where he wont be eating nonmeat items. maybe afterwards when the kkids arent throwing things on the floor?
Ultimately you may have grandkids who will gladly keep up the wonderful tradition of accidentally dropping goodies on the floor.
Gawd knows I'm looking forward to it!

Have a great day!
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Old January 29th, 2008, 09:05 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Junk food

Quote:
to also say it was human values that brought us Fast Food.
Ahhhh yes! But many of us are smart enough not to eat fast foods or junk foods or at least can make the choice not to eat it. Our dogs don't have a choice. They rely on us to make their choices for them. You agree with that?
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Old January 29th, 2008, 09:15 AM
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warning!!!! SORRY!!!!

oh right, i wasnt exactly disagreeing!! especially not the last post!! sometimes others need a different perspective or something to compare kibble to. you can even take that whole Fast Food idea a little farther and point out soooooo many of our foods are over processed. im a girl who loves her Mac&Cheese but i know its not GOOD for me. look at all of the preservatives and dyes and sugars in a huge portion of KIDS cereal? wow!

also, in the lengthier post i was only really addressing that first paragraph of mine at you (in the vague way it was addressed to you anyway!!) the rest of it was also sort of a tangent to the OP about her supplements. and then an actual ON TOPIC post from me on nonmeaty stuff.

sorry to be so unclear!! i expect everyone to be psychic! didnt you know you are suppose to be psychic?? especially before ive finished my second cup of coffee for the morning.

-ash
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Old January 29th, 2008, 09:20 AM
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I'm definately leaning more towards feeding 100% carnivore diet. I think I'll start off with no suppliments, and she how it goes with her. Although I understand it is a good idea to use probiotics in the changeover to prevent diarrhea and gas. Here's my plan:

~ Feed probiotics twice daily (with each feeding) for one week with her kibble.
~ Change the morning (7am) feeding to raw chicken. Keep feeding probiotics.
~ After one week, if all is well, change evening (6pm) feeding to raw chicken as well. Keep feeding probiotics.
~ After one week, if all is well, add a second protein source. Keep feeding probiotics for a total of one month.

Does this sound like a good plan? Do you guys just use capsules of acidophilus? If not, what do you use? I'm told to avoid dairy (yogurt etc) during the changeover period. How much acidophilus? I can't seem to find a definitive answer...

Thanks!
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Old January 29th, 2008, 09:39 AM
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your start up plan sounds great. if you want to skip the probotics (of which i dont know a danged thing about!!!) you can start lightly cooking the chicken until it is totally raw. thats how we did it anyway!

-ash
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Old January 29th, 2008, 09:44 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
sorry to be so unclear!! i expect everyone to be psychic! didnt you know you are suppose to be psychic?? especially before ive finished my second cup of coffee for the morning.
*Whew* for a moment there I thought I accidentally put too much gin in my morning tea!
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Old January 29th, 2008, 09:52 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Originally Posted by Myka View Post
ff with no suppliments, and she how it goes with her. Although I understand it is a good idea to use probiotics in the changeover to prevent diarrhea and gas .
I have sad news for you. You can pro-biotic until the cows come home and you'll still get gas and you'll still experience the "hershey squirts" once in a while. That's perfectly normal. Be prepared! Get your Haz-mat gear together because ultimately, you'll eventually need it one day. (to expect perfectly formed poop is one of those human value things I was talking about) What regulates stool consistency is the type of meat you are serving and your actual meat/to bone ratio and not pro-biotics. (and of course the general health condition of the colon and intestines)

Quote:
~ Feed probiotics twice daily (with each feeding) for one week with her kibble.
~ Change the morning (7am) feeding to raw chicken. Keep feeding probiotics.
~ After one week, if all is well, change evening (6pm) feeding to raw chicken as well. Keep feeding probiotics.
~ After one week, if all is well, add a second protein source. Keep feeding probiotics for a total of one month.
HINT: You may want to switch things around. Raw chicken will be processed in 4 hours or less, so unless you are there to let your loved one out, be prepared to come home wearing your Haz-mat suit.

Your Diet Plan
Unfortunately, feeding raw chicken daily is not a raw diet of merit, nor an introduction to raw dieting in an appropriate fashion.

That's kind of like you saying, "ok, I'm going to become a vegetarian". Now, I'll start off by only having carrots all this week and if all goes well, next week I'll add stringbeans, and the week after I'll add eggplant. Do you see the analogy?

You have to serve a variety of meats on a daily basis to ensure quality nutrition of merit.
You will find with your method, the moment you add a second , then 3rd or 4th protein source you'll be back to the Haz-mat suit before you can spell "poop" backwards. The better way to ensure proper digestion is to secure a healthy pH in the stomach and intestines. Serve fresh meaty bones and if you stick to the 80% meat/10& bone /10% offal rule you will never, if ever go wrong. (unless your dog has specific illnesses)


One day chicken, next day, something else, next day something else. Most importantly, what I don't see you mention, is the all encompassing, all important Omega 3+6. These TWO elements that should never , ever be left out of any raw diet for any reason, and that is EFA (Essential Fatty Acids), available from fatty fish. You need to toss in the sardines, or herring or mackeral on a daily basis somewhere in there. Even if it's canned. That's ok. It's far better than no Omega. No Omega, puts your dog into very dangerous un-sound nutritional territory. The first thing you should purchase when shopping for raw, is your Omega source. first and fore most, always, always, always.


Quote:
Do you guys just use capsules of acidophilus? If not, what do you use? I'm told to avoid dairy (yogurt etc) during the changeover period. How much acidophilus? I can't seem to find a definitive answer...
If you are seriously leaning towards a natural raw diet, then your pro-biotics should come from green tripe. Not from pills, yogurts or cheeses, but from green tripe. It's all you'll need. The reason is pH. (Acidity level in stomach and intestines). Green tripe has a naturally LOW pH - which is desirable. Dairy products don't, (which is undesirable) - they actually serve to buffer acid.

Low pH is what your dog needs to break down foods. While the addition of pro-biotics absolutely do help, the culprit that truly aids actual digestion is acid. By encouraging proper acidity in the intestines, you are encouraging good digestion, so that's why I say if you are serious in your endeavour then the better solution is green tripe.

NB: It is when the intestines become alkaline that people start to experience all these digestive problems, hot spots, skin problems, ear infections, and gum disease. Your dog's gut needs to be acidic.
Alkalinity occurs when too many carbs and sugars are continually processed, so that is why many people are telling you to stay away from dairy, farines, soy/ corn and fruits especially.

All of the above is JMHO of course. Take it or leave it!
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; January 29th, 2008 at 11:56 AM. Reason: I've made so many spelling corrections today I'm going ga-ga
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Old January 29th, 2008, 09:17 PM
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Dang! Here I thought I had it figured out!!

Hmmm, maybe you do have a point that the diarrhea (if any) may be recurring when new protein sources are added. But a lot of what I have read say start slow, and don't add too many protein sources too quickly. So when I said I wanted to start her on chicken, I was going to buy (nearly) every kind of chicken I can find, and vary it up, but stick to just the chicken. You really think that is a bad idea though...so now I'm not sure what to do.

I understand the importance of Omegas as I take suppliments for Omegas as I do not like fish. Although I didn't know she should have fish every single day. So that's good to know. I also understand the importance of green tripe as I hear it mentioned as a MUST HAVE all over the place, although I have no idea what it is, but apparently it smells like cow dung. Right on!!! The hound better not roll in it then! I'm going to go search green tripe now to figure out dosing and just what it is that is so good about it.
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  #21  
Old January 30th, 2008, 06:47 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Hi Myka

I think the only reason people say to "start slow". are those that do not feed raw appropriately and add all kinds of things to their raw diet, instead of just adding meats.

Mkya, (stay with me here), close your eyes and just imagine...........
Just imagine for one minute that there was no more food in your fridge...
Just imagine that the stores were empty, everything gone,
All that was left was you, the hobby farm... the woods... the fields.

Just imagine.... your dog is hungry... and see a rabbit !
(are you still with me?)

Your dog, so hungry.... chases the rabbit and catches it.
Just imagine! Wow... his old instincts have kicked in and once again he's
the proud hunter his ancestors were........
(still with me? so far so good?)

Just imagine him eating that fresh, warm, succulent rabbit.
He will eat everything. The fur, chunky meats, a few small, tiny orgrans, and a bone here or there , he'll gorge himself, it tastes so good.

OK MYKA!!! WAKE UP NOW... OPEN YOUR EYES NOW


Each day you wake up, try to imagine, what your dog "caught today".
Was it a squirrel? A muskrat? Rabbit? did he bring down an elk? raid the chicken coop? steal some eggs? find a dead fish along the riverbank?


That is how you have to look at your raw feeding. Just like your dog does.
If you start thinking in those dimensions, next time you are in a store you'll have no problem choosing appropriate meats for your canine companion, and certainly you'll have no problem feeding him either. Natural raw feeding is just like all or any of the recipes at http://rawfeddogs.net/Recipes


No, she doesn't need fish everyday, but she does a good and abundant source of Omegas and a natural source is fatty fish. You could also use krill oil, wild salmon oil, 3-fish oil, NEVER COD liver oil, but it's simply easier to toss your dog a fresh herring. It's a double bonus. It's health and acts like part of the meal where as a pill won't.


Green Tripe FAQs

~~~~~~~~~~



Much to the chagrin of many people who won't like to hear this , I can pretty much tell you that it's been my experience, that most people who have trouble with raw diets are the ones who feed psuedo raw diets, or contorted raw diets, and generally speaking they don't last long with the diet, the dog never really does exactly well, and later on down the road you'll often hear them say;
"Oh, I tried raw and it didn't work for me, so I'm doing this and that now".
or better still,
"My dog didn't like it"
"My dog actually got sick on it".

If you stick to just serving an abundance and variety of fresh, raw meaty bone, you should be successful, and that means not hamberger meat, not chicken necks, and backs raw, it means quarter and half chickens, turkeys, hunks of cod/salmon/whitefish , sides of ribs, entire carcass when available, meaty shanks and quarters and hinds, some tripe, a bit of organs here and there and some bone - it's that easy.

I will go to my grave saying that is it far better for your and your dog, to serve an ultra premium commercial dog food, than it is for you to try to implement a low quality raw diet of little or no merit. If you can't afford a premium bag of dog food, then you also won't be able to afford raw either.
Both costs are similar.

Best of luck - have fun though - and get a clothespin for your nose. The aroma in your kitchen is about to change.
Happy Humpday
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Old January 30th, 2008, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MerlinsHope View Post
I will go to my grave saying that is it far better for your and your dog, to serve an ultra premium commercial dog food, than it is for you to try to implement a low quality raw diet of little or no merit. If you can't afford a premium bag of dog food, then you also won't be able to afford raw either.
Both costs are similar.

Best of luck - have fun though - and get a clothespin for your nose. The aroma in your kitchen is about to change.
Happy Humpday
Holy wowzers! Thanks for all your help!!

about the kitchen aroma.

When Myka was a pup the only "ultra premium" dog food available was Solid Gold. I had her on the puppy version, and she developed dry itchy skin. I talked to my vet about it, and she said that she had seen quite a few dogs come in with dry itchy skin, hot spots, etc feeding Solid Gold. Albeit that was about 8 1/2-9 years ago, so maybe they have improved since then...? I tried her on Ebo Innova for 2-40lb bags and still thought she did better on her Nutro, so that's what we've stuck to. I keep hearing people say, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but should I wait until it's broke before I switch to raw or what? That's a pretty silly idea I think.

Anywho, here's my shopping list:

Probiotics (for the first month)
Green tripe
Sardines
Mackerel
Herring
Salmon heads (small)/tails/chunks
Beef and chicken kidney/liver/heart
Chicken/rabbit legs
Chicken gizzards (even I like these!)
Eggs
beef/pork/lamb short ribs (whatever those are)
beef lung/esophagus/tongue
chicken/turkey necks (not fed often)
chicken/pig feet (for "chewies")
plain yogurt w/ live cultures

Am I missing any prime pieces?? What are classified as "fatty" fish?
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  #23  
Old January 30th, 2008, 09:31 AM
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you can probably toss pork kidneys on there too. i cant remember all the different pork organs but if i recall there were a few. eggs! throw eggs on there! also bird backs have a handful of small organs still attached that tend to fall apart when cooked. i havent the faintest what they are but i make sure i feed that also.

-ashley
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Old January 30th, 2008, 09:33 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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You're list is looking better and better.
chicken/turkey necks (not fed often) - they should only be fed if attached to a carcasse (especially to a large dog) Your dog can choke on this. This is not a food item.

From what I see you don't have a miniature poodle so you don't want small , itty, bitty pieces of meat. If you have a big dog, you need big pieces of meat.

It would be nice larger pieces of meat like:
whole stewing chickens (usually very in-expensive)
pork / lamb shoulders
whole turkey or wings/ legs and breast.
lamb/beef shanks (usually in expensive)

Example:
On a good day you can buy a turkey leg for about $2.85. That would feed your big dog for an entire day. (just toss on two organs/some tripe and a mackerel)
Two turkey wings would feed him for a whole day (just toss on two organs/some tripe and a herring)

Don't make it complicated. You have too many organs on you list. Buy less organs and more meat.
Organs are only a supplement not a meal.

If you dog caught ANY animal, not matter what size, there would still only be one heart, two kidneys and one liver. If your dog caught a buffalo, he would eat meat, and only a small percentage of organs.


Save your money:

Green tripe = Yogurt
Green tripe = probiotics

So why are you considering over supplementing already??. If you feed GT you do not need probiotics you do not need yogurt. If you have money to burn, fine, but if not, you're doubling up for no necessarily good reason.

If it was me, I would stick with "species" appropriate supplements, and that is not dairy and not pills.


Quote:
What are classified as "fatty" fish?
sardines.... salmon.... herring.... mackerel

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Old January 30th, 2008, 09:45 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myka View Post
Holy wowzers! Thanks for all your help!!

When Myka was a pup the only "ultra premium" dog food available was Solid Gold. I had her on the puppy version, and she developed dry itchy skin. I talked to my vet about it, and she said that she had seen quite a few dogs come in with dry itchy skin, hot spots, etc feeding Solid Gold. A
Myrka, 8 or 9 years ago premium food was still made with junk, (just less junk), and the primary source of protein was still corn or soy, that is why your dog developed hot spots.

There are excellent, excellent foods out there now.
You can easily find grainless and chemical free. If you haven't explored them, perhaps you should. and by the very same token, if you feed an ultra premium food you don't need additional supplements.


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Old February 2nd, 2008, 11:42 AM
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Hi Merlin's Hope! Sorry I'm late with my reply. I've been very busy during the week. Thanks so much for your replies.

As far as my grocery list containing a lot of organ meats...I was just listing all the meats that I have come across other people feeding. I definately won't buy equal parts of organ/meat! I know it's supposed to only be 10% organ meat.

So the update...

I'm taking the probiotics instead of the dog.

Myka had her first raw meal about 30 minutes ago! I haven't gone shopping for her yet, so I just fed her what I had in the freezer. So the lucky hound got scallops!!! I fed her two x-large bone-in chicken thighs and one scallop. She thought she died and went to doggy heaven.

She's now attacking her Nylabone for some heavy duty chewing. This is odd...in the last couple years she's gone off her once favourite Nylabones, and now has a Gumabone instead prefering the softer chew. Maybe after the bones in the chicken thighs she's renewed her insterest in the hard chew of the Nylabone!!

So I'm going shopping for her today, and will buy some different meats. Unfortunately I don't have a deep freezer, so I won't be able to buy huge amounts at a time, but I think I can fit 20lbs in my freezer.

A new question...she gets breakfast at about 7am, then goes out around anywhere from 10-2, but usually around noon. She gets dinner around 6pm then goes out around 9-10pm. If I'm only feeding one meal raw, and one meal kibble, which one should be which?
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Old February 2nd, 2008, 02:35 PM
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want4rain want4rain is offline
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haha i doubt it will matter in a week or two. when you realize (really really in your heart realize) your dog loves her new raw diet, she wont die from it, there are no more hang ups, you will probably quit the kibble all together.

but for now, feed kibble at night and raw in the morning. Mister eats right before bed (we have kids so giving him the night to clean himself up before he hangs out with the kids in the mornign) and takes a dump right as he wakes up.

-ash
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Old February 2nd, 2008, 03:31 PM
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Oh she will probably go onto a full raw diet within a month. I just have to "test" the waters first. It's a worrisome thing doing something to your dog that is "different". I don't know anyone in person feeding a raw diet...
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Old February 3rd, 2008, 06:35 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Quote:
A new question...she gets breakfast at about 7am, then goes out around anywhere from 10-2, but usually around noon. She gets dinner around 6pm then goes out around 9-10pm. If I'm only feeding one meal raw, and one meal kibble, which one should be which?
I guess that depends on you. Myself I'd feed the raw meal at night because she'd be able to make it to the morning before having to go out, but if you fed the raw meal during the day, there's a good chance that she'll have to 'go', during the day. So depends on your schedule and availablily I suppose.

Are you living in the North? Often in the Winter here if I run out of freezer space I store things outside in a large storage bin. That works for me in the Winter.

Glad to know that your first experiences have gone so well.
That's most encouraging for the both of you.
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Old February 3rd, 2008, 01:23 PM
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We are in southern BC, and I don't think I could rely on a bin outside to stay frozen, but that's a good idea! I'll have to buy a small deep freezer. I've been meaning to anyway, so this is a good excuse. The only problem is finding somewhere to put it.

So this is what Myka had this morning , plus I added a whole egg to it:



Does it look like I'm feeding about the right amount? I'm trying to make it about the same volume as her kibble would have been, but I think that may be overfeeding her a bit. It is one chicken thigh (bone-in), 2 scallops, 1/3 can of green tripe, and a whole egg. She didn't eat the shell of the egg though, so I saved it. I will dry it and I can crush it up, and mix it in with the tripe or something. This is as good as I can do until I find some more meat...hopefully today because she is definately low!

I must say that watching her eat the bone-in chicken thighs yesterday for the first time was very stressful! She bolts her food, so I was SO worried she'd gulp big chunks, but she did chew it fairly well. Whew!

I was really expecting the tripe to stink, but you guys must be wusses! I grew up on a farm, and that tripe did not stink!!! I'm thinking the fresh stuff may be a little stanky though...?

Her poops yesterday were normal, so I'm :crossfingers: that it will stay that way!
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