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  #1  
Old January 20th, 2008, 09:45 AM
TitoandBaxter TitoandBaxter is offline
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detox process on raw diet - ever heard of this?

I have had my 2 dachshunds on a raw food diet since October. Everything was going quite well until a month or so ago, when one of them started having swelling of the pads of one of his feet. He continually licked the foot and made it worse, and the irritation spread to his mouth.

I took him to the vet, who seemed to think this was not an allergic reaction, and he was puzzled. He gave him cortisone and over a couple of days the foot improved. Since then, it has recurred twice, each time getting worse. He has been tested for auto-immune diseases and that was negative.

The place where I buy their raw food has been very helpful, and she says this is part of the purging process for him. Apparently I should not have let the vet give him the cortisone (twice now) because that just slows everything down.

This morning his foot is absolutely raw and bleeding and twice it's normal size. My vet does not know what else to do, except give him antibiotics.

I love the raw food diet, but I am beginning to wonder if this uclerated foot (and mouth) could really be caused by the purging of toxins. Any ideas?

Thank you!
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Old January 20th, 2008, 10:28 AM
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the foot reacted first?? i would think if thats the case it was something he stepped in and then licked. ive never heard of these reactions on a raw food diet specifically although my dog did have allergies to his kibble that caused him to 'mouth' his feet though he never actually chewed them.

i would seriously look into his routine and see what he may be stepping in that causes this. i highly doubt its detox, which is typically considered a myth in raw feeding. there is a period of adjustment with ANY food change, raw being no different but there (by my opinion) no such thing as detox.

try booties with your doxie when you take walks outside and see if that doesnt help. why did your vet think it was not a contact allergy??

and welcome to pets.ca!!!! i really hope we can help and chat about your raw diet!! we have several members who feed raw and love hearing about how others do it and their results.

-ashley
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Old January 20th, 2008, 12:49 PM
TitoandBaxter TitoandBaxter is offline
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Thank you, Want4rain

My vet did not think it was an allergic reaction because it is very localized. He did not rule it out completely, though.

I also thought about maybe something he stepped in outside, but recurring in the same foot 3 times? I don't know. Now I have his foot bandaged up and he is doing pretty well hopping around on 3 paws.

I love the raw diet but if this is purging (and I know that's questionable) it's a really bad case. I guess we'll have to just wait and see. He was also having some skin problems on Life's Abundance, which I was feeding him before we started the raw diet, so he does seem somewhat prone.

Thanks again for your input.
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Old January 20th, 2008, 02:16 PM
SARAH SARAH is offline
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Raw food/ purge isn't something I know a lot about when it comes to animals, but I do know that a raw juice/ cleanse in humans can give ulcerations in the mouth for a few days.

Why the foot would get a reaction ... doesn't make sense that it would be related to the raw diet. The reason it recurred in the same foot each time could simply be that it wasn't totally cured after each treatment. Sometimes the symptoms go away, but the underlying cause may still be there.

If your dog stepped on something that somehow got lodged inside the paw ...

Did your vet do an X-Ray to check?
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Old January 20th, 2008, 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by want4rain View Post
i highly doubt its detox, which is typically considered a myth in raw feeding. there is a period of adjustment with ANY food change, raw being no different but there (by my opinion) no such thing as detox.
I actually disagree, I think there can be a period of detox, as I've seen it a few times in my own dogs, first when I switched from kibble to home cooked food, then when we switched to raw.

That said, what you might typically see is mucous in the dog's stool, eye boogers, darker urine, increased "dog smell", blowing coat, etc. all of which would go away in time. A swollen foot, to me, would indicate something else happening and if it's recurring, I would be extremely hesitant to continue giving cortisone without an actual diagnosis, even if that meant getting a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th opinion.
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Old January 20th, 2008, 05:14 PM
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sorry, i didnt mean to imply there wasnt a temporary change your pet could go through when switching foods, especially from one as processed as kibble to a much less refined homemade/raw diet. i always took 'detox' as purging toxins from the body in the sense that something built up and thus needed to be removed through a bodys natural process such as sweating, urinating, etc.

did your vet check for diabetes?

-ash
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  #7  
Old January 20th, 2008, 06:55 PM
TitoandBaxter TitoandBaxter is offline
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Thanks for all of the responses. We have not checked him for diabetes. Maybe we should. He is only 3 years old but I guess that does not matter.

I agree about the cortisone. I am not going to let him have any more of that until we figure out exactly what's going on. I don't think this is a purging of toxins either. It seems too severe for that. I guess my next step will be the diabetes test and maybe a vet who specializes in dermatology.
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Old January 20th, 2008, 08:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoandBaxter View Post
I love the raw food diet, but I am beginning to wonder if this uclerated foot (and mouth) could really be caused by the purging of toxins. Any ideas?
I've read about "detox process on raw diet" but the only changes we noted in our three dogs when we first switched them to raw were mucous-covered stools that lasted about a week.

Just as your vet ruled out allergies because it's very localized, I'd say the same about a possible detox effect: too localized to be associated with raw feeding, or any feeding for that matter. If your vet, after several visits, is at a loss, I would suggest seeking a second opinion.

When you say "the irritation spread to his mouth," what exactly do you see in his mouth?
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Old January 20th, 2008, 08:58 PM
TitoandBaxter TitoandBaxter is offline
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When you say "the irritation spread to his mouth," what exactly do you see in his mouth?

After a day or so of constantly licking the foot, he starts "itching" all around his mouth and snout. If a dog had lips, picture wherever the lips would be is all irritated and red because he also rubs his mouth on the pavement, doormat, or anything else he can. The foot is much worse, which is why I am more concerned, but the problem is also around his mouth.
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Old January 20th, 2008, 10:38 PM
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Sounds like it may be related to a fungal infection. Had your vet mentioned anything related to this? Did he happen to take a sample to analyze?
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Old January 20th, 2008, 10:44 PM
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Sounds like it's not the food....He didn't step in road salt did he? That would cause a burning sensation of the foot & possible mouth if he injests any of it. Did the vet take a skin scraping? Yeast infection perhaps? Fungal? Bacterial infection?


When I switched my cat to raw she only had 2 days of slightly mucous-y poop...no other symptoms.
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  #12  
Old January 21st, 2008, 10:30 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Hello everyone

I'd like to answer too if I may.
We run a rescue here in Montreal and all of our rescues are fed exclusively raw, and when I say raw, I mean 'real" raw, not commercially prepared raw foods.

Our adoption candidates have come from every conceivable backround including mills, surrenders of course, and other types of rescue situation.

We have never seen "detox", and we've been doing, what we have been doing for some 3 years now. Myself personally I've been raw feeding for more than 14 years now. All we notice is "wellness", so I have to debute the 'detox' theory. I don't think it occurs at all.

It's very possible that your dog stepped in something on the road, and transferred it to his mouth from licking. If you live in Canada, it's very likely in the Winter months. It could easily be salt. That would cause a reaction. It's quite strong (the salt used on roads)., or let's face it, when our dogs walk on public roads, they are subject to picking up everything and anything. Hope it's nothing too serious, but I seriously doubt it's the food.
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Old January 21st, 2008, 06:49 PM
TitoandBaxter TitoandBaxter is offline
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MerlinsHope - thank you for your reply. You pretty much confirmed what many others on this board have said, and what I think after research and reading.

We went back to the vet today and he did a swab for fungus (ringworm), which he had not done before. If that comes back negative, I will have to find a dermatologist because my vet is stumped.

I am almost positive this has nothing to do with his diet or "purging toxins". I live in Florida, so salt on the blacktop is a non-issue here. Of course, he could have stepped in something out in the yard - who knows what?

Thanks for all of the advice!
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Old January 21st, 2008, 09:50 PM
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is time for yard ferts and pesticides in FL?

-ash
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 08:54 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Picky thing

I remember when I lived in Palm Beach, there were little picky things in our grass. When stepped on, these little pickys caused a fairly large swelling in the area.

Sometimes there were so many we were not able to walk on the lawn barefoot. Then at other times of the year, there were hardly any. Could it be that? Do you know what I'm talking about? I never seen those anywhere except in the South.
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 10:22 AM
TitoandBaxter TitoandBaxter is offline
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Yes! I live in Palm Beach County and I have alot of those picky green things in my yard. I am constantly pulling them off of both dogs. It never occurred to me that they could be the problem. Thanks for the idea!

Want4Rain - I don't fertilize or put pesticides on my lawn because I don't have an irrigation system. I do use a pesticide on ant hills only. And if he stepped in an ant pile, he would have bites, which I don't see.

Thanks again!
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 10:31 AM
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we have a run off in our back yard and its always depressing to see in the spring and fall when it rains, all of my little fishies die from pesticides and fertilizers. my husband and i joked about dumping a truck load of activated carbon at the road to save our little minnows and toads and salamanders. of course that would be outrageously expensive.

-ashley
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Old January 25th, 2008, 06:42 AM
TitoandBaxter TitoandBaxter is offline
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MerlinsHope:

I have been reading your posts and I can tell that you now a lot about this topic. My Doxie is doing better (on antibiotics now) and we are still waiting to hear if he has ringworm - he has been tested.

If you don't mind, I have a couple of questions. Do you think plain, organic yogurt is good for them? They love it and I have been giving it to them every few days as a treat.

For breakfast, they eat a chicken neck or back, and the pre-made ground up stuff at night. Since the pre-made stuff has veggies, etc. that they don't need, what other kinds of meat could I feed them?

I ask this because they are alble to handle the small chicken bones, but they weigh about 18 lbs. each, so I always thought shortribs and other large cuts would be too hard for them to eat.

Any ideas? Also, often times my dogs do have the white or crumbly stools that you mentioned, indicating too much calcium. How harmful is that?
I guess the reason that is happening is that I am giving them bone in the morning, and then they are also getting it ground up at night in the pre-made stuff.

Thanks for all of your help!

Jenna
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Old January 25th, 2008, 09:14 AM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Hi Tito & Baxter

Quote:
Originally Posted by TitoandBaxter View Post
MerlinsHope:
If you don't mind, I have a couple of questions. Do you think plain, organic yogurt is good for them? They love it and I have been giving it to them every few days as a treat.
Please... ask away..... yes and no for the yogurt . Unless it's true blue natural yogurt that is "active" with acidophilus, then it's not good for them. Most if not all other yogurts, even those marked "plain", are just another dairy product. Many contain sugar, yeast and artificial flavours which are less desirable and of course you are serving fat.

Now, under normal circumstances, that's not going to harm a healthy dog at all, but if your dog has extreme tartar, kidney disease, liver disease, pancreatic problems, intestinal issues, yeast issues or diabetes, yogurt should be considered on the NOT WANTED list. In the USA, FDA regulations require that all yogurts be made with active cultures. Only those that are not heat-treated, however, retain live and active cultures when they reach consumers. You can easily buffer for active enzymes with green tripe, or actual enzymes purchased in a bottle at the pharmacy. Like mentioned, when a dog is healthy, there are many things that won't effect or bother them.

Quote:
For breakfast, they eat a chicken neck or back, and the pre-made ground up stuff at night. Since the pre-made stuff has veggies, etc. that they don't need, what other kinds of meat could I feed them?
Again, chicken necks and backs are not to be considered meats of merit and certainly should not be construed as a raw diet. Your dog needs a variety of meats. Necks especially, are not valuable enough to constitute valuable nutrition. I agree backs are a little more meatier, but they are still poor as far as the meat to bone ratio.

Chicken backs and necks and hamburger is not what a raw diet is. I often find it more than sad, that people come away with this type theory and understanding of raw feeding really is. You, (and I use the term figuratively), are far, far better off serving a premium, high quality commercial dog food, then trying to achieve complete nutrition with these types of meat parts.

I have to tell you that most prey model raw feeders don't really endorse pre-made for a variety of good reasons. They contain additives, and raw feeding is an attempt to get away from additives, also there are few rules and regulations in place right now that govern that entire industry. If you may recall, it's the failure of the kibble market that brought many people to raw in the first place.

Also, just so you know vegetables such as carrots can cause bloody stools.


Quote:
I ask this because they are alble to handle the small chicken bones, but they weigh about 18 lbs. each, so I always thought shortribs and other large cuts would be too hard for them to eat.
No dog ever choked on a side of beef. Just because your dog is small doesn't mean it should automatically be served small pieces. If your small dog happened to be lucky enough to catch a squirrel or partridge, (say), he would tear open the carcasse, eat the fur or feathers, the thick meats, some bone and some organs. He would leave the entrails. That's the way you have to view raw feeding so that you picture in your head everyday, what your dog caught for lunch or dinner. do you follow?


Quote:
Any ideas? Also, often times my dogs do have the white or crumbly stools that you mentioned, indicating too much calcium. How harmful is that?
Well there you go! The proof is in the stool! <joke>
It doesn't indicate too much calcium, it indicates too much bone.

White, crumbly stools is the prime sign that you feeding far too much bone and not enough meat. Stills should be brown and not so dry or hard as to constipate the dog.

It's harmful from the point of view that the nutritional value of food is low in merit, so that's no good.

Hope these replies are helpful.
Every morning when you wake up, say: "What did my dog catch for breakfast today?", and feed accordingly.
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; January 25th, 2008 at 09:19 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old January 25th, 2008, 12:49 PM
TitoandBaxter TitoandBaxter is offline
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MerlinsHope - thank you!

I am pretty new to this and I have been given some not-so-good information, it seems. The person who introduced me to raw feeding highly recommends chicken backs and necks, which is why I started on those.

So if I don't have a good old fashioned butcher in my area, and I have to buy what I feed the dogs at the grocery store, what do I get? Pork chops? Cornish hens? I would like to do this right, but I have no idea where to buy whole or almost whole dead animals. (And I don't mean to sound sarcastic - that is not my intention at all.)

I guess I am just not knowledgeable enough yet to know what to feed them and where to get it. Is ground beef not good for them? Because at least that is easy to get. I really appreciate your help. These 2 dogs are like my babies and I really want to feed them the best diet possible.
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Old January 25th, 2008, 06:08 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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Raw thingies

One of the best places to start would be www.rawmeatybones.com
The book is well worth it, and you could find one on amazon used for about 2 or 3 dollars.


I have a miniature sharpei rescue here and I wanted to show you a picture of her with a huge turkey wing in her little mouth. She'd be about the same size as a dashund, but the picture thing just isn't working for me.


I might have mentioned this in a previous message, I'm not really sure, but when I started raw myself, we did chicken backs and covered the entire thing with a vegetable slurry that was pureed. - but that was 10 years ago, and we've learned so much more now.

Let me ask you something. Have you tried premium foods? If so, what was your observations? Did you not see any improvement? I don't think we touched on that in any previous message.

Re: Ground Beef
it's not bad for them, it is the one meat source that is most likely to cause digestional issues and illnesses like the salmonella and eecoli because of the time the meats sits in the grinder. It's perhaps fine in a pinch, on holiday, something like that if you really not it was ground in front of you, but essentially no, it also, like the constant serving of chicken necks and backs is not a complete diet of merit. Also your dog has to masticate, and chew food. This is an important process of digestion, conditions the teeth and gums and stimulates the colon. Unless your dogs have no teeth, there is no reason to feed them ground food. This is also a misnomer.



Thanks
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; January 25th, 2008 at 06:13 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old January 25th, 2008, 06:22 PM
MerlinsHope MerlinsHope is offline
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No offense taken, not to worry

Quote:
So if I don't have a good old fashioned butcher in my area, and I have to buy what I feed the dogs at the grocery store, what do I get? Pork chops? Cornish hens? I would like to do this right, but I have no idea where to buy whole or almost whole dead animals. (And I don't mean to sound sarcastic - that is not my intention at all.)
No offense taken, not to worry.EDIT: Sorry I just realized you live in Florida. (Sorry) You know, inland in Florida there are ALOT of cattle farmers. Maybe you can make a deal with one for still births, I've done that here as well. Florida produces more beef that Texas apparently. Also I know there are many co ops that sell rabbits and chicks to raw feeders now. You might find one in your area on Yahoo groups. Just do a search.

Pork chops, roasts, ribs, shanks, osso bucco, feet, ears, heads, organs, tails any part. That includes sheep, lamp, beef and don't discount fish either, and don't forget the sardines or mackeral and of course poultries. I would think that cornish hens are a bit of a delicacy so would be more expensive. Again at super C I often get 2 or 3 good sized chickens in a bag for about 7.00 or so.

Do you have to store Super C or IGA in your area? That's where I've been purchasing most of my meat lately. The other day Super C had 20 - 30 lb legs of pork for only 20.00 dollars. That's a TON of meat. In the Winter months I always find chicken and pork to be good value. In the Spring Summer months it seems to be beef. I shope for the specials. In China town you can buy a 10 lb bag of chicken feet for about 4.00 or so - they have literally tons of dried fish at great values, and weird cuts of meat.
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Last edited by MerlinsHope; January 25th, 2008 at 06:31 PM.
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